GMing my first game of 4E (help)

[Binks]

So the current RL rpg I'm running is nearing its end (or at least the end of the main plots, we may run one-shots in the same universe) and I've been talking to my players about playing some D&D 4E. Got enough buy in to give it a shot, but as it's a completely new system to all of them (current game is M&M3) I want to start off running a one-shot 'demo' game as an introduction to the rules. Need some help with building the demo characters and adventure.

I have PHB 1 and 3, but not 2, and I'd ideally like to avoid divine powered classes. Not a strict requirement for demo, but probably will be a requirement of campaign so I'd like to avoid any players becoming attached to a divine class for now.

On the characters I have the following players:
1. Wants to be an archer. Loved the WoW hunter, and seems to be leaning towards trying to do something like that (he's asked if he can have a pet. Is there some feat that would do that?). Probably seeker or ranger.
2. Wants to be a 'charismatic rogue' (his words). Obviously looking at rogue class. Also seemed interested in monk though.
3. Haven't had a chance to ask yet. Plays an illusion based controller in current game. Has played a blaster and blades pirate in another game. Thinking warlord? Though he did have fun with the eladrin wizard in castle ravenloft board game...
4. Most flexible player. Could probably have fun with anything, so thinking of having him fill the gap for the demo.

Ideally I'd like to cover all 4 roles if possible. Right now looking at seeker/rogue/warlord/defender of some kind, but I'm open to changes. I plan to give them character sheets and power cards.

As for the adventure what I have so far is that they were hired to retrieve an artifact from a cave (old lava tubes). 4 encounters. Goblin patrol, then one of two possible encounters inside (either goblins or goblin traps depending on which way they go), then an encounter with some animals as they get deep (the only pure combat encounter), then an encounter with a floating skull that they can either solve his riddles (any suggestions?), combat (beat it, very hard), or, if both fail, cast a ritual that costs all their on-hand gold (third option doesn't open till they fail one of the first two).

Would that be a good demo adventure? Is thee a pre built demo adventure that you'd recommend? Figure by the 'rule' of time in the dmg it's about two sessions of material, and should give everyone a chance to shine, regards of what classes I end up with.

Just looking for basic advice, what's a good starting party, how can I make sure my adventure is fun, what do I need to know to run a fun 4E game. Thanks.

[Sipex]

For your players, one can be a beastmaster ranger if you can get the books for the build (either Martial Power 1 or 2, look it up before you buy) or if you have a subscription to the char builder. Charismatic Rogue is easy to do, no problem there. That gives you two strikers mind you so you're already guaranteed not to cover all 4 roles.

That said, don't pressure your players to do it, you're trying to introduce them to the game, it would leave a bad taste in their mouths if you forced this upon them. If they don't fill all the roles the party should still work unless you're missing a leader. If so just give them a DMPC healer or an NPC they can all control. If they're against this, look into giving them healing potions (to start with and as regular loot).

What level did you want to run this campaign at?

In addition, avoid making the game look like the usual 4e complaints (unless that's the type of game your players want). Combat Encounters one after another are bad so give them some stuff to break it up (your skull with riddles is a good idea). Also include roleplaying and social aspects of the game.

When you do traps try to stay away from HP tax traps if you can. 4e introduced interactive traps (where you actively fight the trap as part of the combat) and they'll help make things more interesting.

[Drglenn]

I'd ideally like to avoid divine powered classes.
Why? Do the gods not give out power in your world?


On the characters I have the following players:
1. Wants to be an archer. Loved the WoW hunter, and seems to be leaning towards trying to do something like that (he's asked if he can have a pet. Is there some feat that would do that?). Probably seeker or ranger.
From that description seeker or ranger would be best, yes


2. Wants to be a 'charismatic rogue' (his words). Obviously looking at rogue class. Also seemed interested in monk though.
Obviously artful dodger rogue, inspiring warlord would also be good if he mainly wants the 'charismatic' part


3. Haven't had a chance to ask yet. Plays an illusion based controller in current game. Has played a blaster and blades pirate in another game. Thinking warlord? Though he did have fun with the eladrin wizard in castle ravenloft board game...

4. Most flexible player. Could probably have fun with anything, so thinking of having him fill the gap for the demo.
find out what they'd like to play and fit that around what you have for the other 2
Maybe think about getting a 5th player or putting in a DMPC for the 5th guy, 4e generally works best with 5.
Example parties you could do with those people
1) Ranger, 2) Rogue, 3) Wizard, 4) Defender/Leader, You) Leader/Defender

or without the DMPC
1) Seeker, 2)Rogue, 3) Defender/Leader, 4)Leader/Defender

or
1) Ranger, 2) Warlord, 3) Controller/Defender, 4)Defender/Controller




As for the adventure what I have so far is that they were hired to retrieve an artifact from a cave (old lava tubes). 4 encounters. Goblin patrol, then one of two possible encounters inside (either goblins or goblin traps depending on which way they go), then an encounter with some animals as they get deep (the only pure combat encounter), then an encounter with a floating skull that they can either solve his riddles (any suggestions?), combat (beat it, very hard), or, if both fail, cast a ritual that costs all their on-hand gold (third option doesn't open till they fail one of the first two).

Would that be a good demo adventure? Is thee a pre built demo adventure that you'd recommend? Figure by the 'rule' of time in the dmg it's about two sessions of material, and should give everyone a chance to shine, regards of what classes I end up with.
It seems like you have a good idea there, make the encouters to fit the adventure idea you have.

[Binks]

I assume beastmaster ranger is ranger with pets? Will definatelly look into that, thanks.

I'm fine with an npc/dmpc for a full game, I just don't like to have them for intros since I'm learning how to play too (have one in M&M3 game, but didn't introduce him till 3rd session. DMPC is practically required since we do some guest DMs every once in a while). Definatelly won't force anyone to play a role they don't want. How bad does it hurt to not have a defender (since that's the role no one seems like they'd want)? I know what the books say, but does anyone have any experience playing without one?

Level 1. At least one pc has said he wants to start there, and the others said that was fine. Given I tend to run too close to monty haul it should be a good change too.

I'll look into interactive traps. Haven't done anything there besides brainstorming (goblins like traps. Traps are likely to play a role in any campaign I run. Therefore should have traps.)

And I definatelly do plan to have some rp, I don't think that will be much of a problem. One of my goals is to try and add more combat/non-social stuff as my players have indicated I tend to do too much rp stuff (a valid complaint, and one of the reasons I went with M&M3 since every superhero adventure tends to have at least some fighting).

My campaign idea involves a shattered world (if you've played mtg think Alara like) that the gods have abandoned and walled off from the rest of the multiverse, hence divine powers are few and far between.

I'll look at artful dodger. Is that PHB or a supplement?

*facepalm* Just heard from one of my players. He wants to be a sorceror or ranger. So...all striker party here I come I guess :P (just kidding, going to find out why he wants sorc. I suspect he wants 3.5 sorc, or wizard with no memorization...in which case I'll just point him towards wizard :) )

[Drglenn]

I assume beastmaster ranger is ranger with pets? Will definatelly look into that, thanks.
Beastmasters do indeed have pets, they're generally best as melee-based characters though as most of the beast powers need a melee attack from the ranger


I'll look at artful dodger. Is that PHB or a supplement?
Its PHB, Dex/Cha build


Also if the people wanting to play rangers are so because they want to play nature-based characters (i.e. based on the 3.5 ranger) condiser getting PHB2 and suggesting that they play the primal classes from there

[tcrudisi]

I assume beastmaster ranger is ranger with pets? Will definatelly look into that, thanks.

Martial Power, if I remember correctly.


Definatelly won't force anyone to play a role they don't want. How bad does it hurt to not have a defender (since that's the role no one seems like they'd want)? I know what the books say, but does anyone have any experience playing without one?

It's easy for an experienced party to go without a role. Just realize that it takes some understanding of the weakness of the group. If you don't have a character to take the heat off of the others, combat becomes a little bit more dangerous.

Also, it is worth pointing out to your party that 4e defenders actually do their job extremely well. In previous editions of D&D it was up to the DM to have the monster attack the Fighter just because. Now? The Fighter actually forces the monster to stay on him.


Level 1. At least one pc has said he wants to start there, and the others said that was fine. Given I tend to run too close to monty haul it should be a good change too.

Level 1 is great for new players. Just realize that it's also a very boring level. It'll help them get introduced to the new system. If I'm starting a new game with experienced 4e players, I start at level 3 at the lowest. But for new players: level 1 is the easiest.



My campaign idea involves a shattered world (if you've played mtg think Alara like) that the gods have abandoned and walled off from the rest of the multiverse, hence divine powers are few and far between.

Dark Sun might be an interesting campaign book to steal some ideas from.


I'll look at artful dodger. Is that PHB or a supplement?

PHB if my memory is correct.

[Sipex]

I've not found Defender to be crucial. Not that they're useless, in fact they can make battles a lot easier, but not having a defender causes the party to function differently, that's all.

Think of it this way, the party doesn't have a defender but now they have something else instead. Extra striker? They'll kill monsters faster. Extra controller? Monsters will stay locked down. Extra leader? More healing to go around the group to make up for the lack of heavy defense.

[Kurald Galain]

I've not found Defender to be crucial.

I concur. In my experience you can make a party just fine while lacking any of the roles - however, lacking a leader has a much bigger impact than lacking any other role. In fact, for a campaign that lacks a leader I would recommend investing in multiclass feats to get some healing powers.

[Sipex]

Agreed, leader is the only role that if you're missing it, the party will function sufficiently less effectively. Parties can function without one but they require alternate methods of mid-combat healing.

That is not to say that a party made entirely of leaders would be the best party, far from it. Just that if you're missing a type of character from a diverse party make sure it's not the leader and if so, prepare yourself (as a DM) for it.

[Gillric]

I have to say, you can get by without a leader

One of my groups spends most of the sessions without one. Albeit, our defender is a paladin so there is some healing there and the striker is an avenger so defences are not an issue either.

[Katana_Geldar]

Some strikers can be rather beefy, there's a Monk in my group that is VERY hard to hit and he's also very fast. Consequentially, he's usually the scout.

[KillianHawkeye]

I ran a Dark Sun game with only 3 Defenders, 2 Strikers, and a Controller. No Leader. But I had so much trouble dealing effective damage to the party that they didn't really need one.

[Katana_Geldar]

The roles are a guide, but they're not the be all and end all.

[Kurald Galain]

I have to say, you can get by without a leader


No Leader. But I had so much trouble dealing effective damage to the party that they didn't really need one.
Oh, you can play just fine without a leader. It just feels different, tactically speaking.

[Excession]

1. Wants to be an archer. Loved the WoW hunter, and seems to be leaning towards trying to do something like that (he's asked if he can have a pet. Is there some feat that would do that?). Probably seeker or ranger.

Doubling up on what others have said, but the Beastmaster Ranger from Martial Power can do this. Normally the build is Str based and melee but it can work as an archer. Mostly it plays the same as an archer ranger, but you get a beast companion that you can use as cover, extra defender, flanker, and maybe a bonus skill. Flanking benefits the ranger if they take the Distant Advantage feat where they get combat advantage on enemies that are flanked by others.

There are powers that do things like letting both the ranger and beast attack, but don't take those as you won't have the Str to make your half hit hard. You're more like a WoW Marksman hunter where the beast is utility and small bonuses than a WoW Beastmaster where the beast is a big part of your damage.

[Binks]

One of the rangers is obsessed with an archer character. Not sure why, though he did play a hunter in WoW so I suspect that's a part of it. He's aiming for the nature stuff too, but mainly interested in archery. The other is most likely in for the nature stuff, but doesn't seem that attached to the class (he's also mentioned druid now, so I'm thinking I just need to sit down with him, give him the books, and let him walk through the characters to pick the one that most sounds like what he wants as he seems to be thinking of the 3.5 classes).

I'll keep an eye out for Dark Sun stuff. I presume it's a similar idea.

It doesn't look like leader will be a missing role at this point. My flexible player has outright told me he wants to fill whatever role is missing, and he can play an excellent leader as he's great at rp-ing diplomacy, so I'll probably be taking his char that way for the intro session. Another player's now looking at wizard, so we'll probably have 2 strikers, 1 controller and a leader. If they want to continue this way to the main campaign (assuming that happens of course) I'd probably throw in a defender GMPC...it's pretty much what I have for M&M3 right now (high def/regen melee grappler) and it's worked out pretty well.


Mostly it plays the same as an archer ranger, but you get a beast companion that you can use as cover, extra defender, flanker, and maybe a bonus skill.
Sounds great, I'll definitely be looking into that as soon as I can get my hands on the book. Especially with the 'extra defender' part since it looks like that's where the group will be lacking...while I'm sure they'd be find without a defender having one that a player also wanted can't hurt :).

Thanks for all the help already, Artful Dodger Rogue and Beastmaster Ranger sound like exactly what two of my players were looking for. Now just to find out what the others were looking for and finish building the adventure.

Looking at making the trap a classic 'entrances seal, ceiling starts descending' one. A couple of questions:
1. AFB at the moment, is something like that already stated out anywhere in the DMG? If so I'll definitely look at that first.
2. Thinking right now I could run it as sort of a high-speed skill challenge, with successes for slowing the ceiling and working to unlock the exit. Is that a reasonable way to handle this sort of thing? Any tips?
3. I'm trying to figure out some subtle clues that the room is trapped, any ideas? Right now I'm thinking of having the room look like a guard room, some polearms along the walls (sized for goblins of course) and an exit into the deeper parts of the cave the PCs want to get to. Nothing of any real value, just quarterstaffs and maybe 1 or two bladed polearms along the walls. Not even racks to hold the weapons. Torches are recessed into the walls a bit.

As for the trap barely perceptible wires along the floors (whoever rolls lowest on perception trips them) trip the trap, dropping portcullis over the entrance and exit and the ceiling starts to descend slowly. With the ceiling's natural speed the PCs would have about 30s to deal with the trap, but the fastest they can unlock the exit would be ~50s, so they'll need to stop the ceiling, either with bracing using the quarterstaffs, pure strength, or something else. Any ideas what they might try that might work? Figured I'd make it require 2 successful 'delay the ceiling' checks while the rogue works on the entrance or exit, +1 delay check for each failure on the rogue's thievery checks. Still haven't read over the traps chapter in detail yet, so I apologize if this is covered, getting my DMG back tomorrow.

[tcrudisi]

If they want to continue this way to the main campaign (assuming that happens of course) I'd probably throw in a defender GMPC...it's pretty much what I have for M&M3 right now (high def/regen melee grappler) and it's worked out pretty well.

I advise against this. If there was one role I would never want as a GMPC, it's the defender. Why? Because it involves the most "DM rolling against himself." Basically, the defender gets into the middle of the monsters and gets half of their attention on himself. Then ... the DM has to roll half of the attacks against himself. I wouldn't like that as either a player or a DM.

[Katana_Geldar]

Best DMPC if there has to be one is the healbot cleric.

[Sipex]

Looking at making the trap a classic 'entrances seal, ceiling starts descending' one. A couple of questions:
1. AFB at the moment, is something like that already stated out anywhere in the DMG? If so I'll definitely look at that first.
2. Thinking right now I could run it as sort of a high-speed skill challenge, with successes for slowing the ceiling and working to unlock the exit. Is that a reasonable way to handle this sort of thing? Any tips?
3. I'm trying to figure out some subtle clues that the room is trapped, any ideas? Right now I'm thinking of having the room look like a guard room, some polearms along the walls (sized for goblins of course) and an exit into the deeper parts of the cave the PCs want to get to. Nothing of any real value, just quarterstaffs and maybe 1 or two bladed polearms along the walls. Not even racks to hold the weapons. Torches are recessed into the walls a bit.

1) Nothing like that already statted out but I'd take a look at heroic tier traps anyways just to get an idea on how to build this one. Make it any level you like (equal level to the PCs usually works out well) and adjust the DCs accordingly.

2) Sounds like a great way to run this challenge actually. Encourage creativity through powers as well. Maybe the wizard uses freezing spells to help slow the ceiling down. Go with it.

3) Those clues sound perfect. Maybe make some fine powder on the floor with a blood stain as well then. A successful nature check on the powder lets the PCs know it's ground up bone.


As for the trap barely perceptible wires along the floors (whoever rolls lowest on perception trips them) trip the trap, dropping portcullis over the entrance and exit and the ceiling starts to descend slowly. With the ceiling's natural speed the PCs would have about 30s to deal with the trap, but the fastest they can unlock the exit would be ~50s, so they'll need to stop the ceiling, either with bracing using the quarterstaffs, pure strength, or something else. Any ideas what they might try that might work? Figured I'd make it require 2 successful 'delay the ceiling' checks while the rogue works on the entrance or exit, +1 delay check for each failure on the rogue's thievery checks. Still haven't read over the traps chapter in detail yet, so I apologize if this is covered, getting my DMG back tomorrow.

Add in multiple solutions. Maybe make a control panel which can also disarm the trap? It would work much like the door, make thievery checks against it.

Also, don't make the trap go off automatically if you're using trip wires. Figure out where you want the trip wires to be and only then have them go off if the PCs hit them. If the lowest rolled perception check is a 25 I'm sure your party will be pissed when they set the trap off anyways.

Be prepared for what may happen if the party fails OR completely bypasses the trap. Accept both as possible outcomes.

[kyoryu]

How bad does it hurt to not have a defender (since that's the role no one seems like they'd want)? I know what the books say, but does anyone have any experience playing without one?

Haven't really had much experience running without a Defender. One of the reasons for that is that 4e Fighters, at the minimum, are not the boring Fighters of previous editions. A decently-built Fighter can not only take the hits and control the battle, but dish out near-Striker levels of damage as well.

They're a fun, flexible class. If you're worried about the lack of Defender, try suggesting a Fighter to one of your players.

[Bagelz]

beastmaster ranger is the way to go. seeker has a very particular flavor.
there are charisma secondary rogue builds (i think someone already mentioned artful dodger)
Your illusionist guy... wizard makes sense off the bat, but since you picked up phb3 why not give psion a shot? (bard would makes sense too but i think its phb2). Or try to sneak your leader in here... ardent possibly. Thing to remember is the phb3 psionic classes get power points instead of encounter powers. You should probably just let him page through the books and find something he likes.
your 4th guy, try to get a defender or leader. probably another melee to give your rogue someone to flank with. paladin can subsidize healing, warlords can hold a line. battleminds and ardents can control the whole field.

You don't need any particular role, but you'll probably have a hard without either a defender or leader. (should be ok without one or the other though).