Pathfinder - Kingmaker - a question about APG

[MDR]

So I am about to start my players on the Kingmaker path. But looking it over, it seems the path came out before the APG? What is the general consensus, should I allow APG races/classes/spells/eq/traits/etc.? It seems like I should allow it if they are properly balanced against the core classes....

[McSmack]

To be perfectly honest with you, I wasn't impressed with Kingmaker. It looks good on the surface, but nearly all of the bosses are melee types with no appreciable will saves. So our witch pretty much destroyed all the boss encounters. Also the treasure was really sparse and the EL's didn't scale well. There were many times our level 5 party would run into CR 1 or 2 monsters. We were pretty much walking over the enemies even though we were starved for loot.

The concept is good, and as long as you're willing to adjust some of the enounters I think it would work out well.

It wasn't written to include the APG material, but the APG is really well balanced with core so it shouldn't be an issue to include it.

[Aemoh87]

To be perfectly honest with you, I wasn't impressed with Kingmaker. It looks good on the surface, but nearly all of the bosses are melee types with no appreciable will saves. So our witch pretty much destroyed all the boss encounters. Also the treasure was really sparse and the EL's didn't scale well. There were many times our level 5 party would run into CR 1 or 2 monsters. We were pretty much walking over the enemies even though we were starved for loot.

The concept is good, and as long as you're willing to adjust some of the enounters I think it would work out well.

It wasn't written to include the APG material, but the APG is really well balanced with core so it shouldn't be an issue to include it.

Replace Kingmaker with almost every 3.X adventure path. Wanna have some real fun read the Faerun books and every time a character spotlight comes up look at it. Elminster and Manshoon are jokes and can be dropped by non-optimized casters half their level.

If I wanted to run a campaign off an adventure, I would just rewrite all the encounters slightly but keeping the story and flavor in tact. Also prewrittens often go into great detail where most DMs don't so you will have added strength onto your campaign. As for allowing APG races and classes, defiantly do it. Its a fun book.

Edit: there are some great prewritten adventures though, Red Hand of Doom is all over the Playground, but Pathfinder really has some neat ones as well. So don't let us turn you off to them.

[Mojo_Rat]

apt is fine it's a good book. my only real advice is read every section on the summoner 4 times then post the build to piazo message board or use heron labs to check mistakes. it's a fine class but ALOT of poor reading comprehension creates issues.

[MDR]

We have used APG in other campaigns (okay one other campaign...we just converted to Pathfinder from 3.5), and have enjoyed it. I was just wondering if the new classes break the Kingmaker campaign setting wide open. If the path is designed to provide a challenge for the core classes, perhaps the new stuff just waltzes through the encounters?

[Ravens_cry]

To be perfectly honest with you, I wasn't impressed with Kingmaker. It looks good on the surface, but nearly all of the bosses are melee types with no appreciable will saves. So our witch pretty much destroyed all the boss encounters. Also the treasure was really sparse and the EL's didn't scale well. There were many times our level 5 party would run into CR 1 or 2 monsters. We were pretty much walking over the enemies even though we were starved for loot.

How were you sparse of loot? Just take something out of the treasury, you run a barony/duchy/kingdom for bloody sake.All in all, I had more fun with the sandboxing then with the plot.

[Aemoh87]

Kingmaker is truly one of the best campaign ideas in a long time (and it's old). I have heard of a very strange off shoot with some added mechanics that turns it into a pure sandbox with random events and randomly generated ongoing plots (that aren't so random once they start, so they do make some sense lol). Either way, who doesn't want to be king!?

[MDR]

So most people here are advocating to use the APG in Kingmaker? I want my players to have fun, but be challenged. I don't want class XXXX to just dominate the Path because the Path never took into account a character able to do YYYY.

But if you all say that APG is pretty well balanced and should fit in fine, I'll allow take the chance.

[Curious]

The APG is quite well balanced with core; any class you would allow normally, can be allowed with the APG. The archetypes have only minor variances in power from the base class, although you may want to warn your players away from such as the freehand fighter, which isn't very good.

[Veyr]

Everything I've heard is that Paizo's new classes are far more balanced than their adaptations of the Core classes. I can't speak for them specifically (haven't read them), nor can I speak to the Kingmaker adventurer (haven't read it), but I do know for certain that a Pathfinder Wizard is just as capable of taking a campaign, bending it over his knee, and giving it a good beating as a 3.5 Wizard is. Pathfinder Core is just about as imbalanced as 3.5 Core, which is to say, massively so.

[Grommen]

So most people here are advocating to use the APG in Kingmaker? I want my players to have fun, but be challenged. I don't want class XXXX to just dominate the Path because the Path never took into account a character able to do YYYY.

But if you all say that APG is pretty well balanced and should fit in fine, I'll allow take the chance.

That will happen anyway if you don't keep the power balance in check. Coarse it will happen no matter what adventure you play and what characters your players have.

Kingmaker looks like a lot of fun. However it will also require a lot of work. It's not a liner dungeon where you know that the players will have to do X by the time they reach Y. Kinda the fun of it. They might run into something that they can't run over, and have to retreat. They will have to come up with a new and creative way of defeating monster X. Coarse as a DM, you might have to "Look the other way" on occasion to avoid a TPK. Just try to cheet in their favor on the quiet. Many players get upset if they think the DM is taking it easy on them.

As well I'm sure you will have to change encounters compleatly. Someone mentioned that many of the boss fights are just big bad melee dudes with bad will saves. If that is making things to easy I would change a boss to something else. A module writer can not predict everything that future players can do. Their is only one of them and thousands of people will play the module. You can plan all you want, but nothing survives contact with players. As the DM again it's your job to make it better.

Here is an example. In the beginning of "Second Darkness" adventure path in order to get all the players together they enter a gambling contest, called "Cheet the Devil and take his gold". In order to enter the contest they are supposed to sign an obviously fake contract that details that if they loose they forfeit their soul. I knew it was fake, all my players knew it was fake. I even told them it was fake! The module writer told me to tell them it was clearly fake.

Na a nary soul singed the contract. I even told the players, if you don't sign we don't have a plot. They would not sign. They were unwilling to take that one in a million chance that I was tricking them and that they would spend eternity on Dis chopping rocks. In the end I had to toss that plot hook out and keep going.

If a module fits your overall wants and needs, then you should use it. Do your homework 1st. IE making changes, tweaking things, moving things around, add a few extra encounters etc, before you begin play. When you sit down to play, your players should not be able to tell weather it was the book or you running the adventure.

In any case the APG is supposed to be balanced with the rest of Pathfinder. So I would not see a problem in players using it. However be wary of the player in your group whom is drooling, grinning, and acting all big and bad and asking you if they can play a certain character. They figured something out and are hell bent on griefing the snot out of your campaign.

Not always of coarse, but that is my experience on the matter.

[MDR]

Thanks everybody! I've told my players that APG is in for the campaign.