OOTS #788 - The Discussion Thread [Archive] - Page 2

berrew

2011-04-18, 11:14 PM

This.

I've never thought Thog was anything but Chaotic Evil, but Tarquin's line rubbed me the wrong way. It implies there's something surprising or weird about liking Thog, but... Thog's team-up with Elan really cemented Thog's likability, and I would've thought that was intentional.

In fact, IIRC Thog teamed up with Elan because he considers Elan a friend. Thog seems to consider all members of the OoTS friends. And when I think about it, that level of inability to understand the world makes it somewhat difficult for me to see Thog as responsible for his actions.

Not arguing that Thog is really True Neutral or anything, just noting something that gives me pause.The mistake here is the underlying assumption that evil characters don't have friends. That's simply untrue. One can be thoroughly evil and still have friends or a family that you love. There are examples in OoTS itself such as Redcloak and Belkar and the kitty.

berrew

2011-04-18, 11:17 PM

One thought about Thog and his "intellect" - perhaps I'm just off track, but I assumed that Thog's comment about relationship status was a Facebook 4th-wall joke.

Felixaar

2011-04-18, 11:37 PM

Great little aside from Tarquin there. Sometimes you can really feel Rich speaking through the characters :smalltongue:

Herald Alberich

2011-04-19, 12:44 AM

... Public Urination? How did they not get him for Aiding and Abetting a Known Usurper or something?

... how did Tarquin not recognize Thog?

By the time Tarquin knew Thog was in the Empire again, he had probably already been arrested on the Urination charge. Here in the Empire of Blood, where all punishments are the same, there's no point wasting another trial on someone already convicted and sentenced to death.

Treason might call for a faster death than by combat, but Thog's too popular in the arena to simply execute.

Hey, I was right.

Shadic

2011-04-19, 12:46 AM

I have no problem at all with the idea of Roy waxing him, though I am a bit disturbed at a Lawful Good character striking a blow from behind without a warning. Not quite the straight bat on that one, Roy.
Lawful Good isn't Lawful Stupid. Roy knows this isn't going to be an easy fight.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-19, 12:47 AM

Lawful Good isn't Lawful Stupid. Roy knows this isn't going to be an easy fight.

Either way, Roy hits people in the back of the head with the flat of his sword ALL THE TIME. He also socks people in the head without warning.

He's a Fighter. Fighting is what he does.

Velarias

2011-04-19, 01:10 AM

Thog is awesome.

Though Nale and Sabine are probably close by probably orchestrating an hilariously convoluted plan.

Time for an epileptic tree. The green elf is actually Sabine.:smallcool:

Quorothorn

2011-04-19, 01:12 AM

Of course, I did say I was only a bit disturbed. I fully grant that Thog is a thug on whom legalistic niceties are wasted, and that Roy isn’t exactly concerned with chivalry as much as with common, ordinary decency. On the other hand, smiting one’s foe while his back is turned is just not an act that trumpets Lawful Good. It’s almost as if Roy were inclined to veer toward Chaos in the execution of his perceived responsibilities.

I see what you did there.

(Though I am also in the camp that thinks Roy used the flat of his sword in that strike.)

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-19, 01:22 AM

I see what you did there.

(Though I am also in the camp that thinks Roy used the flat of his sword in that strike.)

It has precedent. It's the move he used to disable Miko (subdual damage with his sword)/

JonestheSpy

2011-04-19, 01:26 AM

My $.02 about Thog: My impression is that he could be rehabilitated in about five minutes, if Nale were out of the picture. It would go like this:

Not-Nale: Oh no! Thog, I just found out something horrible!

Thog: Ice cream parlor out of Butter Brickle again?

Not-Nale: No, worse! It turns out that every time you murder an innocent person, Demogorgon kills a puppy!

Thog: WHAT?

Not-Nale: And then he punches a clown!

Thog: Oh noes!

Not Nale: The only thing to do is fight demon-worshipers until we get to Demogorgon and kick his ass!

Thog: Thog kick puppy-killing Demon Prince's ass!

Not Nale: Let's start with that tribe of bandit ogres right over there...

That's why I tend to think of Thog as dangerous but not evil the way a rational adult can be evil. If others disagree with this logic, I'd be interested to hear why.

Swordpriest

2011-04-19, 01:52 AM

Interesting. For whatever reason, I get the impression that Rich is getting really, really annoyed with his fan base.

Niknokitueu

2011-04-19, 02:12 AM

Liked the comic, Rich.

Also nice to be reminded that talking is a free action. lol.

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

Nerd_Paladin

2011-04-19, 02:15 AM

This entire thread is an excellent example of why the rigid alignment system has been done away with in Fourth Edition D&D. In fact, ANY thread, past or present, debating the alignment of an antagonist character (including Belkar and Miko) is an excellent example.

For the record, this was one of my favorite strips in quite some time. Roy's righteous anger was very refreshing and edifying. The extreme violence in this comic is very often played for laughs, and that's fine, but seeing Roy have a natural emotional reaction to the deaths of seemingly inconsequential characters from years ago, a reaction grounded in a very clear, relatable, realistic sense of morality, is the kind of thing that helps take the edge off of that twisted humor in a way that is cathartic for the reader without spoiling the comedy.

In fact, Thog's hilarious, clueless witticisms in the face of Roy's seething indignation is itself a great illustration of how dark comedy and serious character drama strike a fine balance when this comic is at its best.

Messenger

2011-04-19, 03:23 AM

I'm with the folks who understand that, as far as fiction is concerned, "Evil" and "Likable" are not mutually exclusive. I know Belkar is CE but he's awesome too. :smallsmile:

But... why is Elan surprised about their survival? Isn't he genre savy enough to realize HE has to kill his evil twin? o.OActually, I think Elan's genre savvy enough to let poetic justice do it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0067.html) for him. :smallwink:

Here's what gets me: we've seen in recent episodes how Tarquin, (Lawful) Evil that he is, does not understand Good in the form and perspective of Elan. This time, we're seeing he doesn't understand the simplicity and honest charm of Chaotic (Evil) Thog. It's an interesting revelation of his character.

pasko77

2011-04-19, 03:23 AM

Great!
This is the best strip in a while, the line about Thog's fanbase is excellent!

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-19, 03:30 AM

Here's what gets me: we've seen in recent episodes how Tarquin, (Lawful) Evil that he is, does not understand Good in the form and perspective of Elan. This time, we're seeing he doesn't understand the simplicity and honest charm of Chaotic (Evil) Thog. It's an interesting revelation of his character.

It's odd, considering that like Thog, Tarquin his own fans who are willing to forget the fact that he, too, is a mass murderer.

Although Tarquin is also apparently a serial killer to boot and not dumb as a rock. Which seems to earn points for Thog? Anyway, yeah, they've both killed plenty of people.

The Pink Ninja

2011-04-19, 03:34 AM

Thog is too stupid to be evil...

But he's also too dangerous to let live.

*Thumbs down*

Go Roy!

Messenger

2011-04-19, 03:40 AM

Maybe they gave Roy a dull sword because Thog needs to win. He is the CHAMP! If the champ gets his butt kicked, or killed, by a newcomer will they make Roy a new champ or will that just upset the crowd?

No, don't tell me they are...GASP...cheating? NOOOOOOO!Are you kidding? If any cheating is to take place, it's to the advantage of the guy who's supposed to kill Thog. Tarquin wants Thog dead and we've all seen how Tarquin deals with those supposedly working for him who try to screw him over. He's done it to his own son and to high level bounty hunters. Tarquin's not going hesitate when it comes to his own prison guards. Heck, it's be an opportunity for him to set an example for his other mooks.

JuanCudz

2011-04-19, 04:22 AM

I think I'm suffering from Stockholm Syndrome, I want Thog to win...:thog:

Morquard

2011-04-19, 05:41 AM

It's odd, considering that like Thog, Tarquin his own fans who are willing to forget the fact that he, too, is a mass murderer.

Although Tarquin is also apparently a serial killer to boot and not dumb as a rock. Which seems to earn points for Thog? Anyway, yeah, they've both killed plenty of people.
Difference here: Tarquin is not liked by his people. He is feared.

In Tarquin's world that's the right way. Being evil and being a popular strikes him as odd.

warmachine

2011-04-19, 05:47 AM

sun_tzu

2011-04-19, 06:03 AM

Kick his Chaotic Evil ass, Roy.
(Not that I expect Thog to die yet - too early in the narrative - but I hope to see him go down permanently before the story ends.)

Conuly

2011-04-19, 06:14 AM

Thog's team-up with Elan really cemented Thog's likability, and I would've thought that was intentional.

So, we can make an exception for Thog.

But was the comment just about people's love for Thog? Where's the exception that makes sense for people still to adore Tarquin even though he's an unrepentant murderer? Where's the exception that makes sense for people to still adore Belkar? Or Xykon? I can see the exception for Redcloak, but it's the same question - what on earth IS it with us, as a group, that we love and adore the vicious killers?

PerfectPhantom

2011-04-19, 06:37 AM

thog is back. perfectphantom is happy. perfectphantom missed thog. thog is very lovable. thog likes puppies. perfectphantom also likes puppies. thog should be perfectphantom's friend.

factotum

2011-04-19, 06:55 AM

This entire thread is an excellent example of why the rigid alignment system has been done away with in Fourth Edition D&D.

The alignment system was not rigid, and never has been rigid. People's interpretations of it might have been, but that's more a problem with people than with the system!

Nerd_Paladin

2011-04-19, 07:00 AM

That's a fair point. Still, it's not hard to see just from the last two pages why it's now a thing of the past.

RecklessFable

2011-04-19, 07:09 AM

Artist Man did great job on dialogue this page.

I actually feel fired up!

pjackson

2011-04-19, 07:29 AM

Morquard

2011-04-19, 07:33 AM

Curiously, no fight start signal was shown, which suggests Roy may have violated the rules of the tournament. That is unlikely though as Roy isn't a rule breaker type. Certainly, he has a sense of honour as he signalled to Thog that the fight has started by hitting him on the head with the flat of the blade, rather than taking advantage of someone who isn't ready. At least that means that if Roy beats the lovable Thog, the crowd won't begrudge a fair victory.

Lawful Good does not mean Paladin. Just because he's LG does not mean he can't use an advantage that presents itself. Like the enemy - who should know he's in a fight - turning his back and not paying attention.

Also "Lawful" does not mean "follows all the rules of an evil empire that imprisons him".

Swashbuckler

2011-04-19, 07:44 AM

I hope we finally get to see Thog's decaptiated and beat up corpse impaled on Roy's sword.

GO ROY!

Nimrod's Son

2011-04-19, 07:52 AM

I may be overanalyzing, but look at the attack Roy lines up in the last panel. Imagine how it will look when he completes the swing. Compare to Horace oneshotting that cleric. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html)

I think Roy may be initiating the special move his grandfather taught him
...

Did you just ask everyone to compare the comic to their own imagination as a way of supporting your idea?

I've never thought Thog was anything but Chaotic Evil, but Tarquin's line rubbed me the wrong way.
Why are you taking it personally, instead of revelling in the wonderful irony of Tarquin saying such a thing?

In fact, IIRC Thog teamed up with Elan because he considers Elan a friend. Thog seems to consider all members of the OoTS friends.
He considers Elan a friend. He considers Haley someone to be beaten repeatedly with a door, before getting ice cream with his friends. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0396.html)

Interesting. For whatever reason, I get the impression that Rich is getting really, really annoyed with his fan base.
Really? I think he's showing remarkable restraint. :smallwink:

berrew

2011-04-19, 07:59 AM

Difference here: Tarquin is not liked by his people. He is feared.This comment is being interpreted as applying to us, the readers - not to Tarquin's subjects in the story. That's what makes it ironic - the 4th-wall twist.

This is one of the joys of OoTS for me - there are times when we are laughing with the villains.

pendell

2011-04-19, 08:15 AM

Interesting. For whatever reason, I get the impression that Rich is getting really, really annoyed with his fan base.

I don't take it that way. Rich frequently takes good-natured pokes at the fourth wall, at his fan base, and at himself. Remember the comment he made about 'they let anyone write a source book these days' when referencing the acid-born shark -- a monster he created himself? And I remember his comments about his own art style when he had Haley steal the diamond from an earlier panel. He's not afraid to laugh at himself, and if the author can laugh at himself, we shouldn't be afraid to laugh at ourselves either.

Besides which, he has only himself to blame if the fan base comes up with crazy theories. If he doesn't want to feed theories about a character in armor secretly being thog, he shouldn't have thog popping out in unexpected places. And it also shouldn't be surprising, if he takes the high route of writing believable, somewhat sympathetic villains instead of movie mustache-twirling villains, that some people will find them sympathetic. If he's not going to drop a "knowing is half the battle" anvil at the end of every strip, then he's got to expect that sometimes people will mis-interpret a story written for adults and not six-year-olds.

And I don't think it's any surprise to him that a comic strip that relies so heavily for its humor on rules-related RPG jokes should attract rules-obsessed,over-analytical RPG fans.

In short, I think the comic is of the greatest benefit to those who have a thick skin and are able to laugh at themselves as well as the characters on-panel. These aren't intended as insults or offense. They're intended as good-natured jibes among friends.

After all, I'm sure even if the Giant absolutely and completely hated his fan base, he'd never say so as long as anyone out there will still buy one of his books or other products :).

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Swordpriest

2011-04-19, 08:22 AM

kunou126

2011-04-19, 09:14 AM

Heksefatter

2011-04-19, 09:40 AM

I loved Tarquin's and Thog's meta-comments. Tarquin's was even more hilarious because it applies to himself as well.

Jay R

2011-04-19, 09:44 AM

I really don't get why people say that the alignment system is "rigid" or "doesn't work".

Evil =/= non-likable. Good =/= sweet and lovable.

Just because people like a character doesn't mean that that character is good. Alignment is not a popularity contest. It is a gauge of what you will and will not do.

And as all the threads on alignment have shown, it doesn't gauge what you will or will not do. Therefore many people think it doesn't work.

(I think it's broken for an entirely different reason -- because it is a construct for an ethical or moral system in a fantasy simulation game, but it is not consistent with any ethical or moral belief from any time or place on earth or in any fantasy literature.)

Icedaemon

2011-04-19, 09:48 AM

Oh please god, let that annoying SOB die permanently.

Ok, granted, Roy does sometimes get self-righteous but as far as LG fighters go, he is not all that annoying.

Conuly

2011-04-19, 09:49 AM

Difference here: Tarquin is not liked by his people. He is feared.

In Tarquin's world that's the right way. Being evil and being a popular strikes him as odd.

I don't know, he could be feared AND liked.

I mean, the crowds love thog, but how many of them would be unafraid to talk to him one-on-one? The masses fear Tarquin (as well they should), but if he entertains them enough, if he provides enough free food, if he's *better than the alternative*, maybe they love him as well.

RPGAgmJAY

2011-04-19, 10:15 AM

Lets see... people go to an Arena to watch bloody death matches... I wonder why they would love Thog in such circumstances. <sarcasm>

Seriously though?! Of course the people love him. He's a buffoon who is good at smashing things. Even most of us love Thog but for completely different reasons.

You know where I see this going? If Thog is here, Nale can't be far behind. We know Nale once attempted to kill his father. I can't remember the last time I saw a gladiator take down a leader though... (gladiator the movie, sparticus, or maybe the SL of DarkSun where Kalak get's killed by a spear thrown from the arena floor.)

Anyway, great comic as always Rich. You're the best.

Da' Vane

2011-04-19, 10:28 AM

Hehe - I like the dig at Thog fans, but Thog IS lovable.

Ultimately, Thog is stupid, and he's got about as much control over his own destiny as his axe.

Look at the stuff Thog has done in regards to all those people he has killed, and look at who is telling him to do that stuff. Nale is evil, and using Thog as dumb muscle - Thog doesn't take pleasure in killing, he just doesn't have enough intelligence to think it is wrong and question Nale.

Every accusation that Roy made to Thog was Thog as a tool of Nale. If you think Thog is evil, you might as well class weapons as evil as well. This means Roy is using an evil sword.

Bear in mind that Belkar is part of the Order of the Stick and is evil. He enjoys killing. Yet Roy is hoping to steer him out of such things. But he can't do the same for Thog?

Roy has no moral highground here - everytime I see Roy and Thog, I can't help but realise that Roy is just prejudiced against Thog. It is an instant aversion because Thog is just a dumb Half-Orc. It's an interesting switcheroo to see a black guy being prejudiced in this way, more so since he gets heckled for being a Fighter.

If anyone from the Linear Guild is convertable, it would be Thog. This is why Thog has such appeal - people want a happy ending for Thog. They realise he's just in the wrong crowd, and needs to be saved from Nale. Hopefully, Roy will get over that sometime soon!

luc258

2011-04-19, 10:43 AM

The whole plot is quite close to the one from Gladiator, in which the Maximus was too popular to simply be killed, too.
I'd not be surprised if some crazy scheme from Nale is behind that all, in fact i hope for it.
Great comic.

Doug Lampert

2011-04-19, 10:48 AM

King of Nowhere

2011-04-19, 10:53 AM

I think I know how tarquin can get rid of thog without angering he crowd:
1) he slit his troath in the nigth
2) he put an actor (whom he hired previously) skillfully disguiosed as thog in the arena
3) the actor just die in the figth
4) tarquin have the actor raised (as previously concorded) and gives him his reward. Or he ca betray him, but the evvil mastermind's manual strongly suggest not breaking contracts with professionals working for you
5) since there's no free press in the eob, tarquin stomps down hard every mention that the guy who died wasn't the real thog.

Da' Vane

2011-04-19, 11:27 AM

Right, it's not like Thog scares the fiend (and Nale) because he'll go on murderous rampages if they don't keep him distracted.

Oh, wait, that's exactly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html) what it's like.

DougL

Really - because I don't see the term "murderous rampages" and there's no evidence of "murderous rampages." "Rampages", sure, but I like how you've added that "murdererous" tag on to it after pulling it from your backside.

Somebody hasn't ever dealt with children before - a tantrum for running out of icecream is par for the course, and when you're a big dumb Half-Orc with the mental capacity of a three year old, such tantrums can be pretty damn scary!

Doesn't make Thog evil though - it makes him childish. Even more evidence that he's not in control of his own actions. That pretty much indicates a Chaotic Neutral rather than a Chaotic Evil mindset.

theinsulabot

2011-04-19, 11:32 AM

Really - because I don't see the term "murderous rampages" and there's no evidence of "murderous rampages." "Rampages", sure, but I like how you've added that "murdererous" tag on to it after pulling it from your backside.

Somebody hasn't ever dealt with children before - a tantrum for running out of icecream is par for the course, and when you're a big dumb Half-Orc with the mental capacity of a three year old, such tantrums can be pretty damn scary!

Doesn't make Thog evil though - it makes him childish. Even more evidence that he's not in control of his own actions. That pretty much indicates a Chaotic Neutral rather than a Chaotic Evil mindset.

...you...are....joking....?

I think its pretty clear that nale and sabine aren't afraid of of thog holding his breath or start screaming loudly, thog himself defined it as a rampage. he meant out of shear boredom, he would paint the town with gore, is what he was saying, and nale and sabine knew it.

Alex Warlorn

2011-04-19, 11:38 AM

Question, Is killing Thog putting down a mad dog, or killing a shark for being hungry? Thog seems a bit like Belkar that he can't even COMPREHEND that killing others is wrong.

King of Nowhere

2011-04-19, 11:58 AM

Doesn't make Thog evil though - it makes him childish. Even more evidence that he's not in control of his own actions. That pretty much indicates a Chaotic Neutral rather than a Chaotic Evil mindset.
That's quite a contradiction.
If thog is too dumb to be evil, than he's also too dumb to be chaotic, and he should just be considered as true neutral because without capability to discern, like an animal. This, I consider a legitimate theory
Saying him chaotic implies that he can judge, and therefore his actions make himn evil.

the_tick_rules

2011-04-19, 12:48 PM

Question, Is killing Thog putting down a mad dog, or killing a shark for being hungry? Thog seems a bit like Belkar that he can't even COMPREHEND that killing others is wrong.

Belkar knows killing others is wrong, he just doesn't care. Well I guess i should he specific he knows other people consider it wrong.

martianmister

2011-04-19, 12:48 PM

Da' Vane

2011-04-19, 12:55 PM

...you...are....joking....?

I think its pretty clear that nale and sabine aren't afraid of of thog holding his breath or start screaming loudly, thog himself defined it as a rampage. he meant out of shear boredom, he would paint the town with gore, is what he was saying, and nale and sabine knew it.

No, I am not joking. It is NOT clear that Nale and Sabine aren't afraid of Thog holding his breath or screaming loudly.

A rampage is a rampage - but we qualify what a rampage actually is. Thog could just run around screaming and throwing stuff. There is no indication that Thog intends a murderous rampage or painting the town read with gore out of sheer boredom. He'll probably just trash the place looking for more ice-cream and sprinkles.

From Dictionary.Com:

ram·page
[n. ram-peyj; v. ram-peyj, ram-peyj] Show IPA
noun, verb, -paged, -pag·ing.
–noun
1.
violent or excited behavior that is reckless, uncontrolled, or destructive.
2.
a state of violent anger or agitation: The smallest mistake sends him into a rampage. the river has gone on a rampage and flooded the countryside.
–verb (used without object)
3.
to rush, move, or act furiously or violently: a bull elephant rampaging through the jungle.
Origin:
1705–15; ramp1 + -age

—Related forms
ram·pag·er, noun

—Synonyms
3. storm, rage, tear.

There is no indication of murder anywhere in the definition of rampage. There is the definition of anger, fury, and violence, however. Yet none of this is evil - chaotic yes, but not evil.

We've seen Roy lose it when tore Xylon apart for breaking his sword and throw him through Soon's Gate. We've seen Roy engage in violence throughout the comic. What is Roy doing in the arena right now to Thog - he's rampaging on Thog. If Thog is evil because he rampages, then so is Roy.

But we also know something else too - Thog is a barbarian, and has Barbarian Rage. Are all barbarians evil? We know they are non-lawful, with a predisposition towards chaotic tendencies, but they are not evil.

D&D is hypocritical on the implications of violence. Violence is evil, except when you are fighting evil? If violence is evil, then Paladins shouldn't be able to smite their foes - this should violate their alignment oaths.

The only reasonable conclusion is that violence itself has no alignment implications, but the reasons for the violence do.

Thog's reason for violence include being bored, looking for ice cream, raging out, protecting his friends, and because Nale tells him to.

I'm guessing that it's okay to disregard how many creatures the OotS have killed, because they are not people. Or those that are deserve it. Or because it was Belkar doing the killing. Or because they are the OotS. If Roy can put up with Belkar in the party, then Roy clearly has no issues with evil members in the party. It's just because it's Thog - and Thog is stupid - and Roy doesn't like Thog. Otherwise, Thog would be just another amusing burden for Roy to babysit along with the other members of the OotS.

Thog is redeemable - Roy just doesn't want to redeem Thog. Elen came close to that, but then Thog attacked Haley. Why? Not because Thog is evil, but because Haley wasn't Thog's friend, and she was attacking Nale, who Thog thinks IS his friend.

Da' Vane

2011-04-19, 12:59 PM

Belkar knows killing others is wrong, he just doesn't care. Well I guess i should he specific he knows other people consider it wrong.

Yet Belkar is redeemable and Thog isn't? Belkar is evil - it's a choice he makes. Thog, not so much. It's just that Roy hates Thog for making Fighters look dumb. That is like hating Thog for being a Half-Orc. I don't think there's anything that Thog could make look intelligent... Even rocks. They look like they are just in wise silent contemplation when Thog is around!

King of Nowhere

2011-04-19, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by King of Nowere View Post
I think I know how tarquin can get rid of thog without angering he crowd:
1) he slit his troath in the nigth
2) he put an actor (whom he hired previously) skillfully disguiosed as thog in the arena
3) the actor just die in the figth
4) tarquin have the actor raised (as previously concorded) and gives him his reward. Or he ca betray him, but the evvil mastermind's manual strongly suggest not breaking contracts with professionals working for you
5) since there's no free press in the eob, tarquin stomps down hard every mention that the guy who died wasn't the real thog.
He is Lawful Evil.

What's your point? I don't think tarquin would object to doi8ng something like this

martianmister

2011-04-19, 01:11 PM

What's your point? I don't think tarquin would object to doi8ng something like this

He did not. In on-screen. What proof I need more?

Giggling Ghast

2011-04-19, 01:12 PM

Yet Belkar is redeemable and Thog isn't? Belkar is evil - it's a choice he makes. Thog, not so much. It's just that Roy hates Thog for making Fighters look dumb. That is like hating Thog for being a Half-Orc. I don't think there's anything that Thog could make look intelligent... Even rocks. They look like they are just in wise silent contemplation when Thog is around!

Who said Belkar is redeemable?

Roy certainly isn't trying to rehabilitate Belkar; he keeps Belkar around because he's useful and he can direct Belkar's destructive tendencies in a way that accomplishes some good (ie. pointing him at the bad guys) until he kicks the bucket, at which point he's not Roy's problem anymore. Roy is under no illusions that Belkar will be anything than Chaotic Evil.

And this strip clearly demonstrates that Roy dislikes Thog for more than "making fighters look dumb." He wants to kill Thog for all of the crimes he's committed.

Da' Vane

2011-04-19, 01:46 PM

Who said Belkar is redeemable?

Roy certainly isn't trying to rehabilitate Belkar; he keeps Belkar around because he's useful and he can direct Belkar's destructive tendencies in a way that accomplishes some good. Roy is under no illusions that Belkar will be anything than Chaotic Evil.

And this strip clearly demonstrates that Roy dislikes Thog for more than "making fighters look dumb." He wants to kill Thog for all of the crimes he's committed.

All the crimes he's committed while he's been with Nale - crimes that Nale has tasked him to do. Nale uses Thog's violent tendances for his own evil ends, and this is why Thog ends up looking evil. Thog really has no idea - he thinks being liked is good. Thog doesn't think about the consequences of his actions - he doesn't even know about them.

Even his "fudge the police" remark - it's classic chaotic behaviour. Thog is simply a trouble magnet. He's a rebellious teen at his most mature, with absolutely no idea of what he's doing. Most of the time, he's just a child - a shiny object is all you need to placate him and send him in another direction. A direction away from Nale.

There's been lots of antagonists of this type - and they are almost always redeemable, which is why Thog is so lovable. If Nale can use him, Roy certainly can, and he has experience from dealing with Belkar and Elan.

Thog is essentially Belkar and Elan combined.

Lord_Meyer_IV

2011-04-19, 01:59 PM

Clonk.
obviously using a leathal weapon to deal non-lethal damage, and because of Thog's damage reduction, making power attacks are is the best way of doing damage. what this means is that Roy is taking a -9 to hit. thats the only way to explain a high level fighter (who probobly has +15 to hit) would miss a lightly armored foe at all.

Roy, being Roy, is probobly doing because he's just as angry at Tarquin for forcing him to fight as he is at Thog for killing innocents.

I think Thog will just go along with it, ending in a epic fake dual to the almost death. Roy could lose that, that'd be awesome.

Giggling Ghast

2011-04-19, 02:10 PM

Themrys

2011-04-19, 02:14 PM

Yet Belkar is redeemable and Thog isn't? Belkar is evil - it's a choice he makes. Thog, not so much. It's just that Roy hates Thog for making Fighters look dumb. That is like hating Thog for being a Half-Orc.

Roy has good reason to hate Thog. Not only has Thog murdered several innocent people whom Roy didn't know, he has also kidnapped Roy's little sister.
Threatening the family of a member of the OotS is not a healthy lifestyle - as was already demonstrated by Vaarsuvius.

Tankadin

2011-04-19, 02:16 PM

All the crimes he's committed while he's been with Nale - crimes that Nale has tasked him to do. Nale uses Thog's violent tendances for his own evil ends, and this is why Thog ends up looking evil. Thog really has no idea - he thinks being liked is good. Thog doesn't think about the consequences of his actions - he doesn't even know about them.

Even his "fudge the police" remark - it's classic chaotic behaviour. Thog is simply a trouble magnet. He's a rebellious teen at his most mature, with absolutely no idea of what he's doing. Most of the time, he's just a child - a shiny object is all you need to placate him and send him in another direction. A direction away from Nale.

There's been lots of antagonists of this type - and they are almost always redeemable, which is why Thog is so lovable. If Nale can use him, Roy certainly can, and he has experience from dealing with Belkar and Elan.

Thog is essentially Belkar and Elan combined.

A mass-murderer that can't tell right from wrong is still subject to society's sanctions. It has only been relatively recently that psychopaths have had the chance to be incarcerated in mental hospitals instead of prisons.

Whether or not Thog knows what he is doing is right or wrong (and the jury is still out on that), he cannot be free. I suppose you could be upset that the Empire of Blood doesn't have a modern criminal justice system, but that's about as far as your complaint can go.

The math here is brutally simple. If Thog knows that murder is wrong and still does so because Nale told him, well, he's still culpable and cannot be free. If Thog doesn't know that murder is wrong, he cannot be free because there is nothing to keep from from murdering over and over and over again. This is why you have to lock psychopaths up. Unless someone casts Awaken on Thog, there is no getting better.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-19, 02:24 PM

Mr. Scaly

2011-04-19, 02:54 PM

Alright, the moment Thog reappeared the grimdark just oozed right out of the strip :smallbiggrin: I learned something today...I love Thog.

Lurkmoar

2011-04-19, 03:12 PM

I never thought I'd say this but I'm actually wishing the Hays Code was back and applied to web comics...

Shoelessgdowar

2011-04-19, 03:47 PM

Ah, Tarquin has a weakness in his evil overlord genre savyness. Nale is Tarquins adversary for ruler. Tarquin knows Thog is a member of Nales gang. A genre aware evil villan would have Thog killed immediately after the intense questioning was done possibly before in the case of Thog as the likely hood of extracting "intelligence" is very low.

Forget any gladitorial things going on, a member of the group working against the overlord should be killed as soon as it is within their power. Failure to do so will result in the ally escaping and attacking the evil overlord later. Making that person the hero of the gladitorial games is just genre-stupidty and asking for it.

Tarquin is not all genre powerful !

You fail to understand Tarquin's point he outright says he's been trying to Kill Thog ever since the prefects picked Thog up. Roy, Haley, and Celia all have failed to kill Thog. Thog is way harder to kill and when he chooses to fight he rarely fails to kill (Talky Man and Tog are evenly matched, and Not-Nale cheats by calling Half-Orc Girls with cooties to chase off Thog).

My question is, it has been 724 strips since Talky Man and Thog talked about Thog being a Barbarian ?/Fighter 2. Thog has almost definitely leveled, so couldn't he have learned from Talky Man and taken Fighter levels 3 & 4 and added Weapon Specialization Great Axe?

In addition, for those who didn't know, Thog is immune to flanking and Sneak Attacks, so Talky Man better find someone to be Thog's puppy soon.

Also, people may not notice this, but Thog does have some senativity, notice the police artist sketch shows thog looking sad, when Sabine rescues Thog and Nale from jail, Thog looks really unhappy for the poor guard. Thog doesn't have to be with Nale to be following Nale's orders, which is why Thog kills the Earth Fairy, but once he was alone with Elan, he didn't kill anyone indiscriminately during their mixed up chaotic good and evil adventure. And for that matter, Thog didn't kill Tarquin's prefects but came peacefully as far as we can tell once he was arrested. Yes, Thog is viscious, yes Thog is a killer, but Thog mainly kills because he is made to kill by others. Thog really just wants ice cream and puppies, maybe cool Leprechaun Clothing, and to have fun.

I think I've figured out the problem with the debates over the alignments. People take Evil alignment and seem to think if someone is Evil that they are the worst people around and must die, while others are merely looking at the character and seeing the good and bad qualities they have and judging them by those qualities.

D&D Evil
Tarquin
Nale
Thog
Monster in the Shadows
Redcloak
Xykon
The Oracle
Belkar Bitterleaf

D&D Good
Roy Greenhilt
Elan
Miko
O-Chul
Eugene Greenhilt

Actually Evil
Miko
Xykon
Eugene
The Oracle
Nale

Actually Good
O-Chul
Elan

Actually Neither
Monster in the Shadows
Belkar
Roy
Thog
Redcloak
Tarquin

Explanation: Real Good does good for good sake and no other, real evil will either do evil for evil's sake (Nale, Xykon, The Oracle) or do evil deeds and pretend to be good (Eugene and Miko) and then act holier then thou and claim they know what is right for you and if you disagree with them you are evil. Roy does good deeds to shove it in his Actually Evil Dead Father's Holier-then-Thou Face, MitS and Thog do Evil because they're directed to do evil and don't usually know better and do react badly to many evil deeds, Redcloak does evil for a greater good and accepts that he is doing evil, Tarquin does good and evil and accepts he is doing evil for his own slightly skewed greater good and completely expects to be defeated one day by someone who is actually good (his son being that actually good person is a bonus to him), Belkar does evil deeds now and then while doing good deeds constantly and acknowledges he does evil deeds. D&D Alignments are based on a very narrow view of good and evil, and that is why Miko is allowed to call herself Lawful Good despite being one of the most evil people in the series, and Belkar who has not only defended Miko's homecity with far more fervor then she ever did but is still trying to grow and become more good and yet he is condemned by her and many other people who practice her narrow mindedness (a great evil as it leads to prejudice, bigotry, and hatred) as Chaotic Evil.

hamishspence

2011-04-19, 03:56 PM

he is condemned by her and many other people who practice her narrow mindedness (a great evil as it leads to prejudice, bigotry, and hatred) as Chaotic Evil.

He calls himself Chaotic Evil back here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-19, 04:00 PM

And Redcloak is pretty damn evil, or at least he was until he started to get better in his treatment of other sentients. Now he's just WIE Evil, and that still counts as Evil.

And Roy is likely more Good than Elan would be. Roy does good despite himself. In contrast, it's far easier to do good for Elan. Ironically, the reason it's easy for Elan to do Good is the same reason it's easy for Thog to do Evil: they're both childlike, albeit it expresses itself in different ways.

EDIT: Actually, hang on. Anyone claiming Belkar is NOT EVIL while Miko or Xykon is, well. :smallamused:

^ To clarify, this guy is claiming that the GLEEFUL SPREE KILLER, who murders because he's bored, is less evil than the insane paladin lady.

Face it, a magic user with Belkar's personality is basically Xykon.

Shoelessgdowar

2011-04-19, 04:05 PM

That would be a good description of the Monster in the Darkness, but not Thog. Thog may be stupid, but he's clearly demonstrated that he likes hurting people without being directed to do so by Nale.

Miko liked hurting people, Eugene likes hurting people... heck... Roy and Haley like hurting people. Liking hurting people doesn't make you evil. And no, Thog likes playing with people, Thog gets off on irony, Thog likes making a mess, Thog likes fighting, Thog actually doesn't like hurting people, he just tends to not realize they're being hurt.

The Sketch of Thog (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0339.html) which shows he feels bad when people are hurt.

Thog witnesses Sabine hurt someone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html)

Thog cares for his puppy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html)

hamishspence

2011-04-19, 04:08 PM

Thog witnesses Sabine hurt someone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html)

That expression looks more like shock, than sadness.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-19, 04:09 PM

Shoelessgdowar

2011-04-19, 04:19 PM

He calls himself Chaotic Evil back here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html

Emphasis is on the condemn... not on the alignment. The alignment is a given, but the problem is people assume those alignments mean anything about their nature and attitude.

And Belkar is viscious and psychotic, but save for a fixation with maiming Kobolds, he shows caring and some respect for other beings (He cares for Mr. Scruffy, he unlike Roy rushed to save Elan when Elan was captured in the woods on Roy's stupid sidequest, his only rampant killing has been the Goblins and Hobgoblins in defense of a city, he's had many opportunities to kill everyone in the Order, but besides teasing, he hasn't). Miko attacked Roy without thought, condemned her own people to death, and killed her superior, all while claiming she was Good. Xykon is at least honest about his evil, Miko was extremely evil but gets to go to the same Heaven that Roy's mother, grandfather, and brother got to go to, all because she's "LG".

Thog and Belkar aren't evil, they're ungood. They're Antiheroes by superhero comic book standards, they don't follow the usual legal ways to get good done, but Thog is as prone to help Elan as he is to do anything else. Thog just does what his friends tell him to do. If Thog is Evil, then every person who ever surrendered to peer pressure is. Belkar is a jerk at times, he's a bully others, but the only 'Innocent' we have on his record is one whose innocence is based on self-proclamation of innocence (ie, we have no actual proof he was innocent, and we're supposed to take the word of someone actively going to distribute goods to the Goblin Empire that they're not aligned with the Goblins and had no idea that the Goblins were there)

turkishvan2

2011-04-19, 04:25 PM

1. Thog kills people because he enjoys it, not just because of Nale.

I always figured it was both.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-19, 04:28 PM

And Belkar is viscious and psychotic, but save for a fixation with maiming Kobolds, he shows caring and some respect for other beings (He cares for Mr. Scruffy, he unlike Roy rushed to save Elan when Elan was captured in the woods on Roy's stupid sidequest, his only rampant killing has been the Goblins and Hobgoblins in defense of a city, he's had many opportunities to kill everyone in the Order, but besides teasing, he hasn't).

Nale cares for Sabine, Tarquin cares for Elan, Miko cares for Windstriker (or whatever the hell her horse is called) etcetera, etcetera. Someone caring for something doesn't make them good or evil, it just means they're people.

Belkar's still got Solt Lorkylurg's blood on his hands that we've seen in the online material, a vast amount of blood we haven't seen, including references to stabbing people in the eye after prom. He appears to consider kobolds nothing more than fodder for his daggers. That alone is evil.

The reason he rushed to save Elan is the same reason he cares for Mr. Scruffy, or any evil person would rush to protect someone they consider a friend: being evil doesn't always mean you twirl your mustache, cheat even when you're ahead, and kick puppies. Hell, even the Giant's sample villain (The Fire King, I think) trusted another powerful villain because he was a friend.

Caring about things != not evil.

And your last point about his murder of Solt just tells me you subscribe to the DnD system anyway. :smallamused:

Shoelessgdowar

2011-04-19, 04:29 PM

Yeah, Thog doesn't like hurting people. He just likes killing people, but you know, that's obviously not an evil trait! I mean, the Joker, Belkar and Xykon all do the same, and they're not evil at all!

The best part is, I think this dude actually believes what he's saying.

Haley, Roy, O-Chul, they all kill too... so they're Evil? V and Durkon both seem to like killing certain beings too, so guess Durkon is evil.

Thog actually never stated liking killing, he likes fighting. Old Belkar liked killing because it leads to XP and he is just as happy to kill evil beings as long as he gets the XP (new Belkar avoided killing on a few occasions)

If Thog liked killing, Roy would be dead now. Thog likes having fun, Thog likes fighting because he thinks it is fun. The fact that Thog is good at killing and he is a Barbarian... so he does what he is good at. If Thog liked killing then Elan would have had an air ship sooner, if Thog liked killing Elan would never have made it back to Haley, if Thog liked killing then Cliffport would be a Ghost Town (Possibly literally) and the Greenhilt line would be over. Thog likes puppies, Thog likes Ice Cream, Thog likes rocket skates, Thog likes Not-Nale, Thog likes Nale, Thog likes Talky Man, Thog even likes dressing up, but nowhere is it said Thog likes killing.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-19, 04:31 PM

Haley, Roy, O-Chul, they all kill too... so they're Evil? V and Durkon both seem to like killing certain beings too, so guess Durkon is evil.

:smallamused:

I'll just let you dig yourself into a deeper pit, buddy. Unless you have examples of Durkon enjoying killing. Examples that don't rely on ridiculous things like "oh, Thog looked sad in this sketch of him!"

Shoelessgdowar

2011-04-19, 04:35 PM

Nale cares for Sabine, Tarquin cares for Elan, Miko cares for Windstriker (or whatever the hell her horse is called) etcetera, etcetera. Someone caring for something doesn't make them good or evil, it just means they're people.

Belkar's still got Solt Lorkylurg's blood on his hands that we've seen in the online material, a vast amount of blood we haven't seen, including references to stabbing people in the eye after prom. He appears to consider kobolds nothing more than fodder for his daggers. That alone is evil.

The reason he rushed to save Elan is the same reason he cares for Mr. Scruffy, or any evil person would rush to protect someone they consider a friend: being evil doesn't always mean you twirl your mustache, cheat even when you're ahead, and kick puppies. Hell, even the Giant's sample villain (The Fire King, I think) trusted another powerful villain because he was a friend.

Caring about things != not evil.

And your last point about his murder of Solt just tells me you subscribe to the DnD system anyway. :smallamused:

Actually, technically, considering Kobolds nothing but fodder for his daggers makes him Good. Kobolds are an Evil race who worship Tiamet the Evil Queen of the Dragons (Worshipped by Troglodytes, Kobolds, and all Chromatic Dragons). And Belkar is a Ranger, which means he has Favored Enemies (Favored Enemy: Humanoid - Reptilian covers Lizardfolk, Troglodytes, and Kobolds, and is most likely Belkar's primary Favored Enemy type) and targeting those enemies first doesn't make one evil, it makes one a good Ranger, but when that enemy IS Evil, it tends to make one Good. So sorry, you have just argued the first major proof that Belkar has had his alignment misdiagnosed. Belkar kills Kobolds, Belkar likes killing Kobolds, that means Belkar must be good.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-19, 04:37 PM

Actually, technically, considering Kobolds nothing but fodder for his daggers makes him Good. Kobolds are an Evil race who worship Tiamet the Evil Queen of the Dragons (Worshipped by Troglodytes, Kobolds, and all Chromatic Dragons). And Belkar is a Ranger, which means he has Favored Enemies (Favored Enemy: Humanoid - Reptilian covers Lizardfolk, Troglodytes, and Kobolds, and is most likely Belkar's primary Favored Enemy type) and targeting those enemies first doesn't make one evil, it makes one a good Ranger, but when that enemy IS Evil, it tends to make one Good. So sorry, you have just argued the first major proof that Belkar has had his alignment misdiagnosed. Belkar kills Kobolds, Belkar likes killing Kobolds, that means Belkar must be good.

See, when you say stuff like this, you make it obvious we're not reading the same comic.

Shoelessgdowar

2011-04-19, 04:38 PM

:smallamused:

I'll just let you dig yourself into a deeper pit, buddy. Unless you have examples of Durkon enjoying killing. Examples that don't rely on ridiculous things like "oh, Thog looked sad in this sketch of him!"

Trees and Treefolk, Undead. He enjoys killing them. Now, as my statement about Belkar with being a Ranger infers, I understand that certain classes and people target certain foes. So hating a certain group doesn't decide alignment, the opposing of alignment does. So Durkon hating undead would make him Good actually, his hating Trees and Treefolk (which are neutral) makes him a Dwarf (by GitP's rules of Dwarves hate Trees and Treefolk), but by your definition of liking killing, Durkon is evil.

Shoelessgdowar

2011-04-19, 04:41 PM

See, when you say stuff like this, you make it obvious we're not reading the same comic.

http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Ranger#Favored_Enemy

http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Humanoid_(reptilian)

http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Kobold (alignment is usually Lawful Evil)

Tannhaeuser

2011-04-19, 04:42 PM

Ummm…let me make it perfectly plain that I wasn’t condemning Roy for not being a plaster saint; I was commending Rich for giving Roy a completely consistent character. I thought the irony of my post was all too obvious (I mean, seriously -- “not quite the straight bat”?), though even if I had been completely serious, “I am a bit disturbed” by Roy’s impulsive blow (edge on or averted, I care not) against a murderous brute like Thog would not have meant, “I regard Roy Greenhilt as a treacherous Chaotic Evil murderer of helpless innocents who deserves to be minced into bits and to burn in everlasting fire.” I’m glad Roy has so many defenders among the fans, but, really, folks, you don’t have to defend him against me; I think Roy is one of the most richly drawn characters I’ve ever seen.

Oh, and for those who ask what I would have done in the arena: if I were Roy, I would doubtless have done exactly what Roy did do. If I were myself, I think Thog would be sufficiently warned by the whining and groveling.

Shoelessgdowar

2011-04-19, 04:44 PM

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-19, 04:46 PM

http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Ranger#Favored_Enemy

http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Humanoid_(reptilian)

http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Kobold (alignment is usually Lawful Evil)

Yeah so? All this tells me is that you think the DnD alignment system is perfectly valid, while your primary points were based on the fact that Belkar and Thog were not Real Evil due to the alignment system giving them the short end of the stick. :smallamused:

hamishspence

2011-04-19, 04:49 PM

And while we're at this:

A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do.

Belkar seems to have a dose of all three.

He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable.

Sounds like him.

If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse.

Seems about right.

Shoelessgdowar

2011-04-19, 04:56 PM

Yeah so? All this tells me is that you think the DnD alignment system is perfectly valid, while your primary points were based on the fact that Belkar and Thog were not Real Evil due to the alignment system giving them the short end of the stick. :smallamused:

No, I'm stating that most people are using Belkar's killing of Evil things as proof he is Evil. My point is that people are ascribing proof based on one but claiming they're following the other.

Miko is called good by the comic and the system, but she is Evil.

Belkar is called evil by the comic and the system, but I've stated he's been misdiagnosed because he doesn't fit the description of CE, he works well on a team, he has been following the same leaders for over 750 strips (possibly over 800 with bonus strips), and CE do not care for anyone or anything. By the mere acts of caring for pets and friends, Belkar AND Thog are technically CN.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-19, 04:58 PM

I reiterate: we're obviously not reading the same comic here, since you obviously didn't notice Miko's fall, among other things.

hamishspence

2011-04-19, 05:02 PM

CE do not care for anyone or anything.

That's not actually in the description you just gave.

A character with lots of CE traits, and one or two not normal for CE, can still be comfortably CE aligned. Alignment is a very general system, not a "Having X trait excludes being Y aligned" system.

And, if you go by Champions of Ruin, the primary determiner of whether a person is evil aligned or not, is if they routinely do Evil deeds.

So, you could have a highly altruistic, compassionate Chaotic character, but if they routinely torture their enemies to death- they're Evil (going by splatbooks that make torture an always evil act- with its severity determining its level of evilness.)

Or, you could have someone who is Evil to most people, but kind to their loved ones- and is still Evil.

TriForce

2011-04-19, 06:17 PM

And while we're at this:

A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him.

Chaotic evil is sometimes called “demonic” because demons are the epitome of chaotic evil.

Chaotic evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents the destruction not only of beauty and life but also of the order on which beauty and life depend.

the last part of your quote out of the PHB is about GROUPS or organizations of chaotic evil characters, where this would indeed apply, but looking at the individual traits: do whatever greed, hatred, lust for destruction, hot tempered, violent, unprediictable? that is a pretty good desription of both thog and belkar. they kill on a whim, with no or hardly any reason, care nothing for people they dont know, take whatever they can get away with.... stuff that doesnt apply for any of the non-evil people in this comic.

honestly im trying to decide if your just trolling to get a laugh or really believe what you say, since i have no clue how you even convinced yourself with your arguements, nevermind other people

Shoelessgdowar

2011-04-19, 06:18 PM

I reiterate: we're obviously not reading the same comic here, since you obviously didn't notice Miko's fall, among other things.

Miko fell, that meant she did a single act that made her a Fighter instead of a Paladin. She still got considered LG.

Gray Mage

2011-04-19, 06:20 PM

I'll just throw my 2 cp on Thog's aligment.

He routinely engages in evil acts, like murder, showing absolutely no moral qualms to do them, even if I don't remember if he've ever stated that he enjoys doing them. He's CE, without doubt.

However, I do think he's more chaotic than evil (no, that does not make him CN) and that I think he could be turned away from evil, if he was separated from Nale and spent more time with someone that would be a good influence on him, like Elan.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-19, 06:22 PM

Miko fell, that meant she did a single act that made her a Fighter instead of a Paladin. She still got considered LG.

Nope. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html)

Shoelessgdowar

2011-04-19, 06:44 PM

the last part of your quote out of the PHB is about GROUPS or organizations of chaotic evil characters, where this would indeed apply, but looking at the individual traits: do whatever greed, hatred, lust for destruction, hot tempered, violent, unprediictable? that is a pretty good desription of both thog and belkar. they kill on a whim, with no or hardly any reason, care nothing for people they dont know, take whatever they can get away with.... stuff that doesnt apply for any of the non-evil people in this comic.

honestly im trying to decide if your just trolling to get a laugh or really believe what you say, since i have no clue how you even convinced yourself with your arguements, nevermind other people

But neither Belkar nor Thog kill on a whim. They kill for specific reasons: Orders, protecting the city, entertaining the masses, because they insulted Mr. Scruffy. Thog is not hot tempered (Roy has been attacking him repeatedly and he has yet to fight back, only block), neither has a lust for destruction (Belkar sought XP, and now seeks to 'play the game'; Thog seeks a pet and ice cream). Unpredictable, actually Roy practically drives home the point that Belkar has always been predictable (Thog is a bit less predictable, especially when people assume he's evil, but if one stops thinking he is evil and simply observes him, you see he is extremely predictable. Thog wants to do exciting and fun things like use Rocket Skates and help Nale, and he wants a pet and ice cream). Yes, they're violent, and so is Roy, and V was Violent (so far, the issue is people are seeing the alignment that as been stated and saying, "Okay they're CE, so they must be this way" instead of saying "So that is their alleged alignment, do their actions even come close to that? Well, no, so the alignment is for the Rule of Funny and not accurate." Miko was violent from day one, she had hatred, she was unpredictable, she was hot tempered, she was more Chaotic and Evil, but because she didn't have a lust for destruction nor greed.. Oh no, Belkar has XP Greed, Thog has Ice cream Greed... she is called the Good one) In fact, while Belkar has lots of Hatred, Thog hates only 1 thing (girls with cooties), so the argument is very baseless for them to be Evil. Not saying they're not, but the issue is people are condemning them for the state of being Evil, and complaining about people liking them, even trying to encourage them being killed off for it, just because they're called Evil. So I'm not trolling, I'm anti-trolling (if anything) against the people making a big to do about Belkar and Thog's evil.

Does it matter that they're evil? Only to the point that we can call them evil so we can call someone else good. Roy is far more evil then Belkar (He lied, he abandoned a friend, he broke his word, all are things that he is not supposed to do as a LG), Roy rants about his intelligence and mental superiority, then shows prejudice and bigotry toward Thog and Belkar, and then disavows anything that shows they're not evil. That is evil... it is a far more insidious evil. Belkar and Thog have low mental stats, they have an excuse for making poor decisions and judgments, Roy doesn't have the excuse for his being an ignoramus, he just provocates the vile evil of bigotry.

Shoelessgdowar

2011-04-19, 06:49 PM

Nope. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html)

Ummmm, you just proved my point. She is told she isn't redeemed (she doesn't get to be a Paladin in death), but her horse is in LG Heaven, probably in some Paladin's mount stables or pasture, and he will visit her as much as he can. Means she's in the lesser LG areas where Roy went with his grandfather and mother and brother. They even say they will usher her to her destination (they couldn't usher her to anywhere except LG heaven). She won't even have to sit in limbo with Eugene.

Gray Mage

2011-04-19, 07:02 PM

Ummmm, you just proved my point. She is told she isn't redeemed (she doesn't get to be a Paladin in death), but her horse is in LG Heaven, probably in some Paladin's mount stables or pasture, and he will visit her as much as he can. Means she's in the lesser LG areas where Roy went with his grandfather and mother and brother. They even say they will usher her to her destination (they couldn't usher her to anywhere except LG heaven). She won't even have to sit in limbo with Eugene.

Actually, it doesn't prove neither point. It just proves that she isn't with the other paladins nor with windstriker, not where she is.

Warren Dew

2011-04-19, 07:13 PM

Thog is not hot tempered (Roy has been attacking him repeatedly and he has yet to fight back, only block)
While I agree that Thog is not hot tempered, he does attack Roy in frame 8 of the current strip.

Miko was violent from day one, she had hatred, she was unpredictable, she was hot tempered, she was more Chaotic and Evil, but because she didn't have a lust for destruction nor greed..
Arrogance is not the same thing as hatred.

Roy is far more evil then Belkar (He lied, he abandoned a friend, he broke his word, all are things that he is not supposed to do as a LG), Roy rants about his intelligence and mental superiority, then shows prejudice and bigotry toward Thog and Belkar, and then disavows anything that shows they're not evil. That is evil... it is a far more insidious evil.
Arrogance is not the same thing as evil.

SiuiS

2011-04-19, 07:28 PM

I am surprised by the amount of people unwilling to believe Tarquinius can have his own opinions, separate from Rich.

Swordpriest

2011-04-19, 08:04 PM

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-19, 08:05 PM

Why is it that practically every discussion thread lately has turned into a bitterly acrimonious debate centered around the idea that the good characters are really evil, and the evil characters are really good? :smallconfused:

It's part of the time-honored tradition of arguing that Gandalf was a trickster attempting to set up a false claimant to the throne in order to consolidate his hold over the rapidly growing pipe weed industry.

Kish

2011-04-19, 08:12 PM

He's no Vetinari, though.
Hell, he's no Snapcase.

EpilepticWombat

2011-04-19, 08:14 PM

Roy is far more evil then Belkar

...huh.

Craziest thing I've read on a forum all week. You're kinda nuts, man.

I mean, sure, there's some evidence for that, but there's some evidence that anything is anything. You could prove that an elephant was a doughnut through sufficiently convoluted but-we're-ignoring-this-part thinking (or with topology, but never mind that).

That said, about the Thog's alignment thing, I don't play DnD so I'm not super-familiar with how alignments work in whatever edition. But I do know that the Are Mentally Retarded People Responsibly For Their Actions debate is a fairly common one, and I do know that whenever it came up in my philosophy class I didn't have to think for very long to decide that no, they're not. I think to be truly evil, you have to know to at least some extent what you're doing. And I could wax on for hours about the distinctions of that and what counts as what and so on to make absolutely sure no one misinterprets that (call it a habit, my aforementioned philosophy class was full of people who liked to grab onto details like that), but you get my point. If he's evil, it's such a lukewarm form of evil that it barely counts.

Gift Jeraff

2011-04-19, 08:25 PM

Tarquinius
I thought the Crack Pairings Threads ended before Tarquin was introduced.

Swordpriest

2011-04-19, 08:25 PM

It's part of the time-honored tradition of arguing that Gandalf was a trickster attempting to set up a false claimant to the throne in order to consolidate his hold over the rapidly growing pipe weed industry.

Ah, that makes sense. Thank you! :smallcool:

Chance Gardener

2011-04-19, 08:57 PM

Penandpaper

2011-04-19, 09:14 PM

There's a few things which are important to note. One, this is a comic where the creator creates the major social discourse of what is considered good and evil. So what is good versus what is evil is based upon that system and nothing else.

Two, no matter how much we see of a character, it will be an incomplete picture. Not just in the sense that the characters perform actions 'off panel', but also to the point that we are viewing them through snapshots made through a singular point of view. We don`t get a second thought bubble stating `and this is why I do this` and then a third bubble stating `because this and this happened to me``.

Based upon what I've seen so far, I'd believe that good characters want good things to happen for other people (acting selfless). Evil characters in contrast, think in terms of self only (acting selfish).

If someone was to tell the story that Thog killed a busload of innocent people, because each of them had an ice cone he wanted, this story is quite believable.

If someone said, Roy killed a bus load of innocent people because this would stop Xykon, this doesn`t sound believable at all. Of course, this is my interpretation of what the characters would do.

Now Roy is bringing to Thog`s attention that Thog is evil. If the conversation continues along this line, Thog will either acknowlege it and show his evil side or he will show remorse and seek penance of some kind.

I hope Roy trounces Thog while this happens.

deuxhero

2011-04-19, 10:44 PM

Unlike the arena viewers, to us, the people Thog kills are fictional (it's not like a Draco in Leather Pants thing where it's claimed Thog is just misunderstood), so we can love him in spite or because of his evilness, because Thog is hilarious (often in the way he kills).

redcodekevin

2011-04-19, 10:54 PM

Ummmm, you just proved my point. She is told she isn't redeemed (she doesn't get to be a Paladin in death), but her horse is in LG Heaven, probably in some Paladin's mount stables or pasture, and he will visit her as much as he can. Means she's in the lesser LG areas where Roy went with his grandfather and mother and brother.

OK wait, so the Paladins go to some place in LG heaven OTHER than where Roy is? OHGAWDWHATSTHATONPANELFIVE (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html)

theinsulabot

2011-04-19, 10:57 PM

Why is it that practically every discussion thread lately has turned into a bitterly acrimonious debate centered around the idea that the good characters are really evil, and the evil characters are really good? :smallconfused:

if the discussion thread for the very strip where the giant takes a potshot at people loving the mass murderer includes people trying to justify or ignore the mass murdering in order to not have to change or reexamine their viewpoints is something that surprises you, you must be new here.

Warren Dew

2011-04-19, 11:02 PM

I am surprised by the amount of people unwilling to believe Tarquinius can have his own opinions, separate from Rich.
Tarquin's statement in panel 4 and Roy's statements in panels 7 and 10 all read like responses to some of the things in this thread that got locked.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195411

I'm sure Tarquin can have his own opinions, but I think there's reason to suspect a humorous jibe at the forum here. For me at least, part of what made this strip so hilarious was its appearance shortly after that thread.

Zea mays

2011-04-19, 11:21 PM

Messenger

2011-04-19, 11:23 PM

I dunno why people have been saying Miko is Evil in this thread. :smallconfused: It's as if Lawful Neutral (or the shift to that from Lawful Good) doesn't exist.

If she was Evil, Soon wouldn't have taken the time (or shown the decency and mercy) to talk to her before she died. And Windstriker would hardly able to visit her- Baator is a much further and more dangerous place than Mechanus for Lawful Good visitors.

JonestheSpy

2011-04-19, 11:41 PM

Now Roy is bringing to Thog`s attention that Thog is evil. If the conversation continues along this line, Thog will either acknowlege it and show his evil side or he will show remorse and seek penance of some kind.

I suspect Thog will just continue is lack of comprehension that talky-man would be upset by his actions.

theNater

2011-04-20, 12:29 AM

And while we're at this:

A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him.

Chaotic evil is sometimes called “demonic” because demons are the epitome of chaotic evil.

Chaotic evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents the destruction not only of beauty and life but also of the order on which beauty and life depend.
From the same rulebook:
People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others.

Belkar and Thog do not have compunctions against killing the innocent, so they cannot be neutral.

Warren Dew

2011-04-20, 12:30 AM

My $.02 about Thog: My impression is that he could be rehabilitated in about five minutes, if Nale were out of the picture....

That's why I tend to think of Thog as dangerous but not evil the way a rational adult can be evil. If others disagree with this logic, I'd be interested to hear why.
Just because he can be rehabilitated doesn't mean he's not evil. This is why D&D alignments are based on acts, not intentions.

Cerlis

2011-04-20, 12:44 AM

But neither Belkar nor Thog kill on a whim. They kill for specific reasons: Orders, protecting the city, entertaining the masses, because they insulted Mr. Scruffy.
yes, they kill on a whim for specific reasons. everyone does. Kill on a whim doesnt mean you just kill willy nilly. a whim is a feeling you get to do something, that has little thought. As in when Belkar decides to let someone live cus he doesnt think they are worth his time, then he finds out they called him uncool (or someone reminds him someone has a cooler dog than he.)and he changes his mind immediatly. That is a whim. a momentary thoughtless feeling

Thog is not hot tempered (Roy has been attacking him repeatedly and he has yet to fight back, only block),
Nale was worried he's start destroying stuff when they ran out of icecream. Hes a spoiled crybaby. his very nature is hot tempered

neither has a lust for destruction (Belkar sought XP, and now seeks to 'play the game'; Thog seeks a pet and ice cream).
Thog breaks stuff and Belkar tortures people in various physical and mental ways for kicks.

Unpredictable, actually Roy practically drives home the point that Belkar has always been predictable
Half of Belkar's jokes are about him doing something people dont expect. Him killing someone for some obscure reason, or not killing someone for a different reason. basically any major decision he makes results in him having to stop and explain himself.

Yes, they're violent, and so is Roy, and V was Violent (so far, the issue is people are seeing the alignment that as been stated and saying, "Okay they're CE, so they must be this way" instead of saying "So that is their alleged alignment, do their actions even come close to that? Well, no, so the alignment is for the Rule of Funny and not accurate."
There is a big difference between putting an overzealous Firecracker in someones coffee "Bah, he has d8 hitdice, he was in no real danger", and Killing someone who is trying to avenge his dad and then using his skull to hold your salsa.

Does it matter that they're evil? Only to the point that we can call them evil so we can call someone else good. Roy is far more evil then Belkar (He lied, he abandoned a friend, he broke his word, all are things that he is not supposed to do as a LG), Roy rants about his intelligence and mental superiority, then shows prejudice and bigotry toward Thog and Belkar, and then disavows anything that shows they're not evil. That is evil... it is a far more insidious evil. Belkar and Thog have low mental stats, they have an excuse for making poor decisions and judgments, Roy doesn't have the excuse for his being an ignoramus, he just provocates the vile evil of bigotry.

yes, Roy is racist against evil murderers. Big woop.

factotum

2011-04-20, 01:53 AM

But neither Belkar nor Thog kill on a whim.

A certain Gnome named Solt Lorkyurg would take issue with that statement, as would the Oracle...not to mention the fifteen people Belkar killed in a bar fight in Origins! As for Thog, him beating Haley over the head with a door sure seemed like something he did on a whim.

Oh, and Evil acts do not magically become non-evil just because you had a good (as opposed to Good :smallwink:) reason for doing them, and "because I was following orders" has never been a particularly good defence in a court of law...

Shoelessgdowar

2011-04-20, 05:47 AM

A certain Gnome named Solt Lorkyurg would take issue with that statement, as would the Oracle...not to mention the fifteen people Belkar killed in a bar fight in Origins! As for Thog, him beating Haley over the head with a door sure seemed like something he did on a whim.

Solt Lorkyurg was evil, he was supplying the Goblins with resources, and Belkar thought he was killing him to help the resistance. The Oracle is evil and Belkar killed him because the Oracle told him to kill him. I don't deny the 15 people in the Origins weren't a touch senseless, but then again, we have no idea what their alignment was, only that they brought fists to a knife fight (Belkar has shown that he can have restraint in a bar fight, so his being in the fight itself implies some reason to join in).

Thog hit Haley with a door to save Nale, Thog's best friend as far as he knows , he didn't stand there and pound her into a pulpy mass, he just hit her.

Oh, and Evil acts do not magically become non-evil just because you had a good (as opposed to Good :smallwink:) reason for doing them, and "because I was following orders" has never been a particularly good defence in a court of law...

So does that mean you agree that Roy, lying, breaking his word, and betraying a friend for his star metal, were all evil acts, so Roy is Evil? Miko even used detect Evil and saw Roy as Evil.

...huh.

Craziest thing I've read on a forum all week. You're kinda nuts, man.

I mean, sure, there's some evidence for that, but there's some evidence that anything is anything. You could prove that an elephant was a doughnut through sufficiently convoluted but-we're-ignoring-this-part thinking (or with topology, but never mind that).

That said, about the Thog's alignment thing, I don't play DnD so I'm not super-familiar with how alignments work in whatever edition. But I do know that the Are Mentally Retarded People Responsibly For Their Actions debate is a fairly common one, and I do know that whenever it came up in my philosophy class I didn't have to think for very long to decide that no, they're not. I think to be truly evil, you have to know to at least some extent what you're doing. And I could wax on for hours about the distinctions of that and what counts as what and so on to make absolutely sure no one misinterprets that (call it a habit, my aforementioned philosophy class was full of people who liked to grab onto details like that), but you get my point. If he's evil, it's such a lukewarm form of evil that it barely counts.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html

Look at the chart... where is Roy's face?

OK wait, so the Paladins go to some place in LG heaven OTHER than where Roy is? OHGAWDWHATSTHATONPANELFIVE (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html)

Look at the Line... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html)

factotum

2011-04-20, 07:06 AM

Solt Lorkyurg was evil, he was supplying the Goblins with resources, and Belkar thought he was killing him to help the resistance.

I agree with Sarco_Phage--you are clearly not reading the same comic as everyone else. Strip #539 makes it very clear the gnome had made a mistake coming to Azure City, and Belkar killed him after he already knew that!

Daibhid C

2011-04-20, 07:23 AM

Solt Lorkyurg was evil, he was supplying the Goblins with resources, and Belkar thought he was killing him to help the resistance.

According to the strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0538.html) Solt didn't even know goblins had taken over the city. And while Belkar briefly parrots Haley's explanation as to why killing goblins is acceptable as if they applied the the gnome (which they clearly don't), he eventually aknowledges his reasoning as "He had a donkey, and we needed a donkey".

So does that mean you agree that Roy, lying, breaking his word, and betraying a friend for his star metal, were all evil acts, so Roy is Evil? Miko even used detect Evil and saw Roy as Evil.

When? If you mean here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html), then it was made quite clear she was detecting Xykon's crown. Without it, he's Not Evil.

Incidentally, Roy's evil acts were brought up at his celestial performance review (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html), where it was revealed that the good he did outweighed the evil, not least because he's trying; he admits his faults and tries to improve. Unlike Belkar, who is proud of being evil, or Miko, who was incapable of admiting she had ever made a mistake, ever.

Nimrod's Son

2011-04-20, 08:09 AM

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html

Look at the chart... where is Roy's face?
It's on the line that indicates when Belkar entered Roy's employment.

When? If you mean here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html), then it was made quite clear she was detecting Xykon's crown. Without it, he's Not Evil.
OMG Durkon is Evil! It says so in that strip!

berrew

2011-04-20, 09:28 AM

{scrubbed}

Burner28

2011-04-20, 09:59 AM

{scrubbed the original, scrub the quote}

I could not agree with you more. And why are people trying to insist that Thog is not evil?

EpilepticWombat

2011-04-20, 10:22 AM

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html

Look at the chart... where is Roy's face?

Haha, yeah, okay, you're a troll. Good job, you made a couple people waste a few minutes replying to you. Well done. Your mother must be proud.

Moving on!

So everybody, how about that last strip. Thog sure is amusing. I bet Nale is up to something. I sure do wonder what happens in the next one. *whistles*

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-20, 11:31 AM

{scrubbed the original, scrub the quote}

No, see, my default assumption is that he's serious. It's more fun in the long run.

Laws of Chaos

2011-04-20, 12:21 PM

I've read through many of the posts and thought I'd throw my 2cp on the issue. I have played D&D, and like the alignment structure of 3rd addition, but love the way Rich applies them in his own way. He doesn’t use them to dictate how a character should act, but identifies the alignment through the actions coupled with the intent of the action.

Belkar - CE
While yes, over the past few strips, he has been more CN than CE, he is still very much CE. He has done good things, but rarely on the side of good reasoning. Except for his most recent act of kindness, which was impressive I might add, and does show he has changed a bit, he's always performed his actions for self gain. He has shown that he can be redeemable, but not yet close to being redeemed.

Miko - LN
She did stick to her beliefs, and her convictions, which were on the side of good. But her actions, and her methods were skewed to the point that it hampered her vision. While she could be seen as Good (Paladin) she was not good natured.

Roy - NG
He tries to do the right thing, but often lets his own ego get in the way. He has on many occasions shown a chaotic inner nature, which conflicts with his drive to be lawful. His overall actions are for the side of good though.

Tarquin - CN
You have to put more emphasis on the chaotic side in his case. His actions, while planned out and precise are hard to follow, plus his ability to use spur of the moment changes and the extremity of his actions make it very chaotic. This extremity has an influence on his actions, which over all are for the greater good, but when performed are very difficult to view in a good way. I'd say he was Evil, because of some of the horrific actions he's done, but he has an overshadowing cause which is more good than evil, thus the neutrality of my opinion.

Thog - CN
Thog is like a giant puppy. He's loyal to a fault, and will do anything to make his friends happy. Nale is the true evil in his life. He has gone on mass killing sprees, which done move him to the evil side, but this classification is more gilt by association. All of his actions have been for one of two reasons, 1- he was told to, and 2- to protect a friend. His time with Elan should have spelled it out to everyone, seeing as how he didn’t even hurt anyone, and still maintained his reason for actions with the previous 2 reasons.

I would go into the other characters, but these seem to be the ones of most conversation lately, so I only touched on them.

JSSheridan

2011-04-20, 12:39 PM

No, see, my default assumption is that he's serious. It's more fun in the long run.

In that case, never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Though I'm not sure whether it's more condescending to assume someone is stupid or fishing for attention.

Gift Jeraff

2011-04-20, 12:42 PM

While I would personally consider Roy NG (with Lawful tendencies), you do realize he has technically be LG to get into Celestia?

Tarquin's lawyer said Tarquin is LE. How is this still being debated 738 strips later?

And with Elan's comment in #387, plus the current strip, and you think the author considers Thog Neutral?

Normally I wouldn't mind if one personally considers a character a different alignment than stated in the comic, but when you start implying the author disagrees with canon...

theNater

2011-04-20, 12:55 PM

Tarquin - CN
You have to put more emphasis on the chaotic side in his case. His actions, while planned out and precise are hard to follow, plus his ability to use spur of the moment changes and the extremity of his actions make it very chaotic. This extremity has an influence on his actions, which over all are for the greater good, but when performed are very difficult to view in a good way. I'd say he was Evil, because of some of the horrific actions he's done, but he has an overshadowing cause which is more good than evil, thus the neutrality of my opinion.
Tarquin's overshadowing cause is to rule a kingdom with an iron fist. He mentions a few times a desire to stop people from fighting, but gives no indication that he will stop sentencing people to death for minor infractions and/or slightly annoying him.

Laws of Chaos

2011-04-20, 01:09 PM

Tarquin's overshadowing cause is to rule a kingdom with an iron fist. He mentions a few times a desire to stop people from fighting, but gives no indication that he will stop sentencing people to death for minor infractions and/or slightly annoying him.

True. The thing with him is, he still wants a peaceful society, just one run by his views and will get it by any means necessary. Case in point: Tarquin wants to rule the area, and put an end to all the silly wars. Which is a good thing. His way of going about it though isn't by any means good, useing exteam dictatorship, misguided aliances, and fear for ones own life as a means to get there.
I'd never go as far as to say he's good, not by a long shot. But he does have an end goal which if viewed competly on it's own, with no influence of the means to do so, is one that is good. Once again, NO influence from his means of achieving his goal. If you do that, the idea is mute, because WOW, he has some evil ways of doing it.

Burner28

2011-04-20, 01:19 PM

I
Belkar - CE
While yes, over the past few strips, he has been more CN than CE, he is still very much CE. He has done good things, but rarely on the side of good reasoning. Except for his most recent act of kindness, which was impressive I might add, and does show he has changed a bit, he's always performed his actions for self gain. He has shown that he can be redeemable, but not yet close to being redeemed

Almost completely agree with you

Miko - LN
She did stick to her beliefs, and her convictions, which were on the side of good. But her actions, and her methods were skewed to the point that it hampered her vision. While she could be seen as Good (Paladin) she was not good natured.

Roy - NG
He tries to do the right thing, but often lets his own ego get in the way. He has on many occasions shown a chaotic inner nature, which conflicts with his drive to be lawful. His overall actions are for the side of good though.
Well to be fair while Roy can be argued to be NG and somewhat more legitimately than Thog "being" CN, he did get into the LG afterlife because he tried to be Lawful.

Tarquin - CN
You have to put more emphasis on the chaotic side in his case. His actions, while planned out and precise are hard to follow, plus his ability to use spur of the moment changes and the extremity of his actions make it very chaotic. This extremity has an influence on his actions, which over all are for the greater good, but when performed are very difficult to view in a good way. I'd say he was Evil, because of some of the horrific actions he's done, but he has an overshadowing cause which is more good than evil, thus the neutrality of my opinion.

Actually his cause is a lot different than you thought (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html)

Thog - CE
Thog is like a giant puppy. He's loyal to a fault, and will do anything to make his friends happy including killing people. Nale is the true evil in his life. He has gone on mass killing sprees, which done move him to the evil side, but this classification is definetly not gilt by association. All of his actions have been for one of two reasons, 1- he was told to, and 2- to protect a friend. His time with Elan should have spelled it out to everyone that alignment is not a restriction kit and that you need not be always acting Evil just because of your alignment, seeing as how he didn’t even hurt anyone, and still maintained his reason for actions with the previous 2 reasons.

There. Better:smalltongue:. By the way were you being serious when you insisted that Tarquin and Thog were CN.

Seriously all we need now to make this thread "complete" is some person saying that:Roy and the paladins are CE; Haley has an Lawful Stupid cousin and Elan is Nale's future son.

Laws of Chaos

2011-04-20, 01:33 PM

There. Better:smalltongue:. By the way were you being serious when you insisted that Tarquin and Thog were CN[/QUOTE]

Atcually, yes. Tarquin, is a hard case to make on the whole neutral idea, but he does do "end goal" good. For example, Writing his long lost son's name on the side of a mountain - GOOD deed. How, nailed a bunch of slaves down and lit them on fire - EVIL as all hell. Example, having a parade and a day of games for Elan - Good. Forcing school bands to fight to the death to lead the parade - Evil, Having two friends battle to the death - Evil. So, if you see the middle ground, which I admit is shades of pixelated grey, it's Neutral...:smallconfused:

Thog, not so difficult to justify being Neutral. Mainly because he's too dumb to see the difference. If Thog had not hooked up with Nale, I dont think he'd be seen as evil. If he had come across Roy earlier, he could easily be fighting on the side of good.

Oh, and even in the after life, they had a hard time saying Roy was LG.

But these are my oppinions, and taken just from what I've read here in OotS

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-20, 01:37 PM

You can't take the sum of good and evil and average it out. This ain't Neverwinter Nights, buddy.

Burner28

2011-04-20, 01:45 PM

Atcually, yes. Tarquin, is a hard case to make on the whole neutral idea, but he does do "end goal" good. For example, Writing his long lost son's name on the side of a mountain - GOOD deed. How, nailed a bunch of slaves down and lit them on fire - EVIL as all hell. Example, having a parade and a day of games for Elan - Good. Forcing school bands to fight to the death to lead the parade - Evil, Having two friends battle to the death - Evil. So, if you see the middle ground, which I admit is shades of pixelated grey, it's Neutral...:smallconfused:

Sorry, but Even Evil people can have loved ones, which is a unaligned trait.

Thog, not so difficult to justify being Neutral. Mainly because he's too dumb to see the difference. If Thog had not hooked up with Nale, I dont think he'd be seen as evil. If he had come across Roy earlier, he could easily be fighting on the side of good.

Nah the fact that Thog (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0051.html) hid the fact he killed that poor sylph by lying to Roy about being alone, shows he has some capability to recognize what he has done.

theNater

2011-04-20, 01:51 PM

True. The thing with him is, he still wants a peaceful society, just one run by his views and will get it by any means necessary. Case in point: Tarquin wants to rule the area, and put an end to all the silly wars. Which is a good thing. His way of going about it though isn't by any means good, useing exteam dictatorship, misguided aliances, and fear for ones own life as a means to get there.
I'd never go as far as to say he's good, not by a long shot. But he does have an end goal which if viewed competly on it's own, with no influence of the means to do so, is one that is good. Once again, NO influence from his means of achieving his goal. If you do that, the idea is mute, because WOW, he has some evil ways of doing it.
A peaceful society is not necessarily a good society. Good and evil isn't just about who you may or may not kill; remember that Roy explicitly calls Miko out for failing to respect the dignity of sentient beings (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html). A kingdom in which the vast majority of people are essentially slaves is still an evil kingdom, even if there is no violence at all.

Atcually, yes. Tarquin, is a hard case to make on the whole neutral idea, but he does do "end goal" good. For example, Writing his long lost son's name on the side of a mountain - GOOD deed. How, nailed a bunch of slaves down and lit them on fire - EVIL as all hell. Example, having a parade and a day of games for Elan - Good. Forcing school bands to fight to the death to lead the parade - Evil, Having two friends battle to the death - Evil. So, if you see the middle ground, which I admit is shades of pixelated grey, it's Neutral...:smallconfused:
Doing something nice for a person you like or wish to impress is neutral, not good. Add the neutral motivations to the extremely evil methods and you get evil.

Laws of Chaos

2011-04-20, 02:03 PM

You can't take the sum of good and evil and average it out. This ain't Neverwinter Nights, buddy.

Actually yes you can, not in a Neverwinter Nights kind of way, but every action has an equal and opposite reaction type of way.

And While Evil people can have loved ones, the point was not that he has them, but more of the action by the means which I was pointing out.

Laws of Chaos

2011-04-20, 02:19 PM

A peaceful society is not necessarily a good society. Good and evil isn't just about who you may or may not kill; remember that Roy explicitly calls Miko out for failing to respect the dignity of sentient beings (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html). A kingdom in which the vast majority of people are essentially slaves is still an evil kingdom, even if there is no violence at all.

Doing something nice for a person you like or wish to impress is neutral, not good. Add the neutral motivations to the extremely evil methods and you get evil.

Good point, but the IDEA of a peaceful society is good. The means of which any society can achieve that goal is never easy, and truth be told, would easiest be accomplished through an iron fist of repressment. Which is the way he is going about it. Not that it makes it right or good.

Also, I do agree that doing something to impress someone else is a neutral act, but Tarquin was doing it to show Elan how much he means to him, to make up for not being there as a child. Which I see as good. If you take the end result, and leave out ALL methodology, the outward appearence is good. Just dont look into it lol, or the entire theory falls apart.

If Tarquin was to build an orphanage for the suffering children of the EoB, it would be a good act. But he would use slaves to build it, and the ashes of their families as the insulation. A good act, just in a really messed up way.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-20, 02:22 PM

Actually yes you can, not in a Neverwinter Nights kind of way, but every action has an equal and opposite reaction type of way.

I murdered a thousand people.

But then I saved a thousand people!

This doesn't alter the fact that I just murdered a thousand people, bro.

(Also you don't have to doublepost, you can multiquote quite easily)

hamishspence

2011-04-20, 02:30 PM

Yup- Champions of Ruin gives an example- for am evil lycanthope:

"A character can be evil and yet not seem to be evil; he can be evil and yet consider himself the epitome of goodness; or his evil might only show itself under certain conditions. A character who has contracted lycanthropy, for example, might donate treasure to widows and orphans, build temples, slay dragons, and help old ladies across the street- but on the night of the full moon, he hunts down and slaughters those widows and orphans and feeds the same old ladies to the dragon. Most of the time he is good, but his curse wipes out all the good that he does."

This is an example of how "being good most of the time, but evil a bit of the time" can lead to an overall Evil alignment.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-20, 02:32 PM

...

Where

Where did the dragon come from.

hamishspence

2011-04-20, 02:36 PM

Probably one of those dragons he's been seeking to slay while trying to be Good.

The general point is- evil characters might not "act evil" all the time. They might behave in a generally Good fashion most of the time and an Evil fashion a little of the time- but that's enough.

A character who is a loving parent and spouse- good neighbour, faithful friend- but is also fiercely prejudiced, and whenever members of their "hated group" turn up, leads the lynch mob- would be a possible example.

Laws of Chaos

2011-04-20, 02:39 PM

I murdered a thousand people.

But then I saved a thousand people!

This doesn't alter the fact that I just murdered a thousand people, bro.

(Also you don't have to doublepost, you can multiquote quite easily)

True, but it also does not change the fact that you saved a thousand either. What would make it good or evil at that point is the intention of the act. Murdering a thousand to save a thousand people is a grey area in the whole good v evil debate. When we go to war, we send thousands of our own people to die for the cause. But how many lives are saved in the process? And please dont dwell on the war thing, it's an example, not a debate topic.

(thanks for the multiquote, I had actually just noticed it right after I posted)

Laws of Chaos

2011-04-20, 02:41 PM

The general point is- evil characters might not "act evil" all the time. They might behave in a generally Good fashion most of the time and an Evil fashion a little of the time- but that's enough.

A character who is a loving parent and spouse- good neighbour, faithful friend- but is also fiercely prejudiced, and whenever members of their "hated group" turn up, leads the lynch mob- would be a possible example.

Very valid point, but it must be said that the same is also true in reverse.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-20, 02:43 PM

In that case, it becomes a question of scale, and whether or not good and evil in a particular universe have the same weight.

Laws of Chaos

2011-04-20, 02:51 PM

In that case, it becomes a question of scale, and whether or not good and evil in a particular universe have the same weight.

Exactly! Neither one can exist with out the other, and each relies upon the other for justification for it's own existance, so yes, they have the same weight, and therfore do have grey areas. Few acts in any life are all good or all evil. The hard part is finding which side of the act falls on. If you focus on one pice of the puzzle you never see the big picture, if you focus on the big picture, you never see the individual pieces as a separate entity.

hamishspence

2011-04-20, 02:54 PM

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-20, 02:58 PM

Exactly! Neither one can exist with out the other, and each relies upon the other for justification for it's own existance, so yes, they have the same weight, and therfore do have grey areas. Few acts in any life are all good or all evil. The hard part is finding which side of the act falls on. If you focus on one pice of the puzzle you never see the big picture, if you focus on the big picture, you never see the individual pieces as a separate entity.

Take your earlier example of Tarquin's sign of his appreciation for Elan. He's trying to bond with his son! Lovely, just ducky, not an evil act there - except his means involved a large number of sentient beings. Nailed to a mountain. On fire. In 200 foot tall burning letters.

Although in retrospect the only thing worse than dozens of slaves nailed to a mountain on fire, spelling out a 200 foot high word, is one slave nailed to a mountain on fire... still spelling out a 200 foot high word.

Laws of Chaos

2011-04-20, 03:08 PM

I think in D&D, the weight tends to be on the Evil side- with a strong Evil trait being potentially enough to put a person into Evil even if they have a lot of Good traits.

The reverse (lots of Evil traits, one strong Good trait) wouldn't jump a person into Neutral or Good.

However, if the evil traits are mild, then Good traits might be able to "cancel it out".

Same applies to evil acts- in Heroes of Horror, it suggests that "flexible Neutral" characters can stay Neutral despite committing evil acts like casting [Evil] spells- toward a good end.

But stronger Evil acts, I think, would mean they don't maintain a Neutral alignment- even with overall Good goals and many Good deeds.

There inlies the problem, in D&D, there are 9 (3.5 ed) alignments, and each one creates it's own realm of existance. According to Tarquin, he has no alignment, just chooses to go about his buisness as he sees fit. This gives him more room to move along the scale, and I think why he has such extream methods to accomplishing his goals.

MDR

2011-04-20, 03:11 PM

Personally I think that Thog will die, but while dying he will show the same unconcern with his own death that he has shown all the men and women he has killed. And then perhaps reincarnated as a puppy or token on a Candyland game (and live happily ever after in the gumdrop mountains).

Either that or the Guild is going to show up and spoil things for the fight.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-20, 03:12 PM

Swordpriest

2011-04-20, 03:31 PM

Haven't you noticed that claiming you are above the traditional systems of morality is a classic villain line?

Exactly. Brushing off the alignment system doesn't magically make Tarquin immune from being classified under it, just like refusing to acknowledge the existence of the color blue doesn't remove blue from the world whenever you happen to be present. Tarquin's still deep-dyed Lawful Evil even if he babbles some kind of relativist excuses to try to cover up his vileness.

Laws of Chaos

2011-04-20, 03:34 PM

Haven't you noticed that claiming you are above the traditional systems of morality is a classic villain line?

Yes, but I've also noticed that in the OotS world, classic villain/hero roles are turned upside-down on a regular basis. Best examples being Tarquin and Miko.
Tarquin, without a doubt is a villain, but if you remove all the methods inwhich he accomplishes things, your left with a very personable, likeable guy with goals to be admired. The way he accomplishes the goals are just horrid.
Miko, was a hero in the fact that she performed her job extreamly well, and did everything to please the Gods, and her leader. But take away all that and she was a horrible person, who demanded everything her way. She accomplished all of her tasks in a brutal take-no-prisoners method. Not exactly the shining example of a hero in my book.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-20, 03:38 PM

Yes, but I've also noticed that in the OotS world, classic villain/hero roles are turned upside-down on a regular basis. Best examples being Tarquin and Miko.

Ahaha, no. Miko is an antagonist, a misguided agent of justice who takes things too far. That in itself is a "classic villain role".

Tarquin is an antagonist, a villain who claims to be above it all, above primitive morality and other things. Aside from his metaknowledge, which is actually pretty common in the OotS strip, he's also a "classic villain".

Xykon is the merciless BBEG out to rule the world.

Redcloak is the one with good intentions but who goes about them in a misguided and tremendously destructive way.

And so on and so forth.*

*although these will only seem familiar archetypes to you if you read or watch a lot of media, whether comic book, television, or otherwise. if not, you can't be blamed for not noticing the familiar patterns.

Laws of Chaos

2011-04-20, 03:45 PM

Ahaha, no. Miko is an antagonist, a misguided agent of justice who takes things too far. That in itself is a "classic villain role".

Tarquin is an antagonist, a villain who claims to be above it all, above primitive morality and other things. Aside from his metaknowledge, which is actually pretty common in the OotS strip, he's also a "classic villain".

Xykon is the merciless BBEG out to rule the world.

Redcloak is the one with good intentions but who goes about them in a misguided and tremendously destructive way.

And so on and so forth.

All of which comply with the notion that just because your in a certain role in a story, does not confine you to a set means of behavior. It's because of this that I say Tarquin is more neutral than evil. He is an extream case of this, I wouldn't hire him to babysit or anything, but there is good in him yet.

CountvonVillain

2011-04-20, 03:47 PM

Just wanted to say that I've just discovered Order of the Stick, and I'm on something of a reading binge. This comic is completely, totally, utterly awesome. Congratulations, Giant.:smallsmile:

Also, go Thog!

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-20, 03:49 PM

All of which comply with the notion that just because your in a certain role in a story, does not confine you to a set means of behavior. It's because of this that I say Tarquin is more neutral than evil. He is an extream case of this, I wouldn't hire him to babysit or anything, but there is good in him yet.

You think the guy who nails slaves to a mountain and sets them on fire, tortures people to death to make himself a magic ring, and is explicitly in the kingdom business for the personal gain, is more neutral than evil?

I think you've been swayed by Tarquin's ~18 Charisma.

Swordpriest

2011-04-20, 03:53 PM

Yes, but I've also noticed that in the OotS world, classic villain/hero roles are turned upside-down on a regular basis. Best examples being Tarquin and Miko.

Not really. The roles aren't "turned upside down" by any means. Again, there seems to be some confusion here between personal magnetism and alignment.

Let me reiterate a point I made earlier: alignment is not a popularity contest.

Nor is being a hero equivalent to being likable, or being a villain equivalent to being obnoxious. Just because you're swayed by a villain's charm doesn't make them any less of a cad, it just makes them more dangerous because they can persuade non-villainous people to follow them.

Tarquin, without a doubt is a villain, but if you remove all the methods inwhich he accomplishes things, your left with a very personable, likeable guy

Hold that thought. As long as you remove consideration of all his acts, and just consider his charm, then he's a very personable, likable guy.

Again, alignment is acts, not a popularity contest. A charming villain is just worse than a brutal, uninteresting one because he can probably get neutral and even good people to pursue his loathsome goals just by doing them with a big friendly smile on his face.

with goals to be admired. The way he accomplishes the goals are just horrid.

Wait -- goals to be admired? To be remembered as the most terrible despot in all of history is an admirable goal? To enslave and conquer a whole continent, and hold it by fomenting constant warfare and instability, is an admirable goal? To wallow in luxury gained through slavery, torture, murder, and war-mongering is an admirable goal?

I see no goals of Tarquin that are to be admired. He's a selfish, destructive piece of garbage who revels in death, pain, terror, and tyranny. There is nothing admirable in him. If anything, he's actually terrifying because his effect on real people in the forum shows how easily a tyrant can sway people to support him just by being charming.

Miko, was a hero in the fact that she performed her job extreamly well, and did everything to please the Gods, and her leader. But take away all that and she was a horrible person, who demanded everything her way. She accomplished all of her tasks in a brutal take-no-prisoners method. Not exactly the shining example of a hero in my book.

Yes, again -- if you ignore acts (the real basis of alignment) and focus only on how personable the person is (which has nothing to do with alignment at all), then you can say that Miko is less "heroic" than Tarquin (that is, less likable, since you seem to be following the "personal glamor = alignment" line).

Actually, Miko did take prisoners. In fact, she was pretty damn merciful when the Order attacked her, because she had the perfect excuse to cut them all down without a blemish on her alignment. At the least, she could have killed Belkar, since he's a worthless little blot of Chaotic Evil on reality. Instead, she went to the trouble of not killing them, and even allowed Durkon to heal them with no repercussions, when she could have killed him, also, for helping them to attack her.

After all, there's no indication they would have spared her life if they'd won, and by the rules of self defense and practical combat, killing Durkon first, then the rest of the Order, would have been a lot safer for her than pulling her punches in the way she did. She risked her life greatly by not just slashing them to pieces on the spot.

So, I'm going to have to disagree totally with everything you're claiming.

Laws of Chaos

2011-04-20, 04:00 PM

You think the guy who nails slaves to a mountain and sets them on fire, tortures people to death to make himself a magic ring, and is explicitly in the kingdom business for the personal gain, is more neutral than evil?

I think you've been swayed by Tarquin's ~18 Charisma.

No, I think the guy that is trying to bring some symblance of peace to a war torn region, the guy who welcomes his long lost son in with open arms by throwing a banquet, a parade, and holding games through a country in cellibration is neutral. The guy who rather than go to war and slaughtering thousands would make deals with other empires to over take countries with the least amount of bloodshed is neutral.
I'm not saying he did it with out bounding over the line of evil, he tripple jumps that line on a regular basis. Just the end result or the intent has to have a reflection on the ruleing.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-20, 04:02 PM

No, I think the guy that is trying to bring some symblance of peace to a war torn region, the guy who welcomes his long lost son in with open arms by throwing a banquet, a parade, and holding games through a country in cellibration is neutral. The guy who rather than go to war and slaughtering thousands would make deals with other empires to over take countries with the least amount of bloodshed is neutral.
I'm not saying he did it with out bounding over the line of evil, he tripple jumps that line on a regular basis. Just the end result or the intent has to have a reflection on the ruleing.

:smallamused:

See Swordpriest's reply if you want to get how far off the mark you are about Tarquin.

I mean, this is definitely in the league of claiming Gandalf was plotting to consolidate the pipe weed industry under his thumb.

UncredibleHallq

2011-04-20, 04:08 PM

The mistake here is the underlying assumption that evil characters don't have friends. That's simply untrue. One can be thoroughly evil and still have friends or a family that you love. There are examples in OoTS itself such as Redcloak and Belkar and the kitty.

Not my point at all. The point is that if Thog comprehended his situation at all (even on a minimal, Elan-like level), he would either consider the OotS his friends, or switch sides, or be torn up about his loyalties, or something. He does none of them, ergo he doesn't comprehend his situation at all.

Similarly, notice how Thog participates in framing Elan one strip, and teams up with him the next, with no acknowledgment of what he just did. Again, shows total incomprehension of his situation. I'm inclined to say Thog is smart enough to be held responsible for his actions--but it's a close call.

The other angle is that Thog's morality seems to depend on who's holding his leash, so to speak. Belkar tries to do evil even when a member of the OotS, but Thog is more like the Terminator of the second movie: he'll kill for the slightest of reasons at first, but stops when the annoying little kid tells him to. In the case of either T, it lets you root for him to a degree that you (or I, anyway) can't in the case of Belkar.

Laws of Chaos

2011-04-20, 04:11 PM

Actually, Miko did take prisoners. In fact, she was pretty damn merciful when the Order attacked her, because she had the perfect excuse to cut them all down without a blemish on her alignment. At the least, she could have killed Belkar, since he's a worthless little blot of Chaotic Evil on reality. Instead, she went to the trouble of not killing them, and even allowed Durkon to heal them with no repercussions, when she could have killed him, also, for helping them to attack her.

I wasnt saying "she never took prisoners", it was her role in the story as the one who took them prisoner. I was speaking of her general attidtude, not her actions.

I am not arguing that Tarquin is a good guy, likeable personality yes, but not a good guy. My point is, that he does have some good goals (intentional or not), just a really bad methodology in achieving them.

hamishspence

2011-04-20, 04:15 PM

"Putting an end to the destructive warring" doesn't seem like it's his true goal. Especially since it still goes on- just that the beings responsible for the destructive wars are secretly allied now.

"Live like a god for thirty years" seemed closer.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-20, 04:16 PM

I am not arguing that Tarquin is a good guy, likeable personality yes, but not a good guy. My point is, that he does have some good goals (intentional or not), just a really bad methodology in achieving them.

So, first you highlight intent as being important to determining whether Tarquin is evil or not...

Then discard it? :smallamused:

factotum

2011-04-20, 04:35 PM

Nah the fact that Thog (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0051.html) hid the fact he killed that poor sylph by lying to Roy about being alone, shows he has some capability to recognize what he has done.

I don't think that was a lie, or an attempt to fool Roy. Thog is extremely simple, don't forget--as far as he was concerned, he WAS alone down there, since the only person present other than Talky-Man was dead!

Burner28

2011-04-20, 04:53 PM

I don't think that was a lie, or an attempt to fool Roy. Thog is extremely simple, don't forget--as far as he was concerned, he WAS alone down there, since the only person present other than Talky-Man was dead!

Hmm.. Thog clearly saw the sylph down there and for no reason killed her, so that is out. There is also the matter of his glee when attempting to kill the Order of the Stick (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html)

swethy

2011-04-20, 05:03 PM

Ahaha, no. Miko is an antagonist, a misguided agent of justice who takes things too far. That in itself is a "classic villain role".

Whenever a character gets compared to :miko:,you know it's time to leave the thread.:smallamused:

Jay R

2011-04-20, 05:05 PM

Curiously, no fight start signal was shown, which suggests Roy may have violated the rules of the tournament. That is unlikely though as Roy isn't a rule breaker type.

We've seen several bouts, and the only thing that looked like a fight start signal we've seen was a guard commanding two people to fight who didn't want to. There is no evidence that a fight start signal even exists.

At least that means that if Roy beats the lovable Thog, the crowd won't begrudge a fair victory.

An allosaur ATE two gladiators without warning and the crowd cheered. There's no begrudging based on unfairness here.

Laws of Chaos

2011-04-20, 05:06 PM

So, first you highlight intent as being important to determining whether Tarquin is evil or not...

Then discard it? :smallamused:

I was speaking on if he has good intentions, not on the idea that he is doing them to intentionally be good. If that makes sense.... It does to me at least! lol

{scrubbed}

Burner28

2011-04-20, 05:09 PM

{scrubbed the original, scrub the quote}

So what if he happens to do good in the end? That is clearly not his true goal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html)anymore than Belkar's true goal is to help ponies across the land.

theNater

2011-04-20, 05:22 PM

Good point, but the IDEA of a peaceful society is good.
If all Tarquin wanted was a peaceful society, you might have a point. But Tarquin wants a peaceful society in which he can live like a god for thirty years and over which he will rule with an iron fist. The idea of that society is not good.

And you can't claim that Tarquin's sole goal is the peaceful society, because he plans to rule over it with an iron fist until he dies, not until he is no longer needed. The iron fist is an integral part of the society he envisions, not merely a means to an end.

Also, I do agree that doing something to impress someone else is a neutral act, but Tarquin was doing it to show Elan how much he means to him, to make up for not being there as a child. Which I see as good.
You are welcome to see it however you like, but according to the game, doing a favor for a friend or someone you want to be a friend still counts as neutral, not good. Unless, of course, that favor involves personal sacrifice, which Tarquin's did not.

Burner28

2011-04-20, 05:23 PM

You know I do not get why anyone could ever think that Tarquin and Thog are not Evil.

Laws of Chaos

2011-04-20, 05:45 PM

Warren Dew

2011-04-20, 05:52 PM

There inlies the problem, in D&D, there are 9 (3.5 ed) alignments, and each one creates it's own realm of existance. According to Tarquin, he has no alignment, just chooses to go about his buisness as he sees fit. This gives him more room to move along the scale, and I think why he has such extream methods to accomplishing his goals.
I wonder if what Tarquin has said on alignment is an indicator that he's supposed to represent just how broad "unaligned" can be in 4th edition. As I understand it, you can be as evil or good as you want and still be "unaligned" under 4th edition if doesn't represent a personal policy goal.

Of course, that would just be commentary on how broken the 4th edition alignment system is.

theNater

2011-04-20, 06:16 PM

I wonder if what Tarquin has said on alignment is an indicator that he's supposed to represent just how broad "unaligned" can be in 4th edition.
I kind of doubt it; I'd assume the word itself would have shown up at some point if that were the case, and I don't think it has.

As I understand it, you can be as evil or good as you want and still be "unaligned" under 4th edition if doesn't represent a personal policy goal.
Yup, that's pretty much how it works. Alignment is the character's personal policy goal; if they haven't laid one out, they are unaligned.

Of course, that would just be commentary on how broken the 4th edition alignment system is.
In order to be broken, it has to be unable to do what it is supposed to do. What do you think it is supposed to do, and how do you think it fails at it?

Gift Jeraff

2011-04-20, 07:50 PM

In regards to Thog's charisma, might he be a desert half-orc? They don't get -2 to charisma. He's certainly a dessert half-orc!

Cerlis

2011-04-20, 08:03 PM

Self admittedly, Tarquin is very difficult to propose the notion of being anything but Evil. But I dont see things the same as most, so I can justify it to myself, not expecting anyone else to see it.
Thog on the other-hand, From the first time I started reading the comic, I've never seen him as evil. He's too child like. Yes he does fit the bill nicely, but I believe it's due to bad influence more than bad nature. Thog, if given the chance, could turn out to be as good as Elan. But for now, he's mainly doing what he knows, which is being very destructive.

That just means he isnt inherently evil. He is evil part by choice and mostly by circumstance. A evil dictator who got that way by being orphaned, having to kill to survive...is still an evil dictator (not talking about tarquinn, just basic example)

His mind may be basic, his actions stupid, and he could be easily swayed to be good, but for the moment he isnt. He is redeemable. not non-evil.
--------

And i think some confusion is two fold

-The thought that Tarquinns goal is to make a peaceful land.(i believe his actions with elan have been argued well enough so im not going to touch it.)
If you go back to the conversation we see that Tarquinn is seeking to unite the land under his banner. But , i dont know how to explain it. but the way he makes his case is fishy. He explains why he has to be deceitful and rule with an iron fist in order to tell Elan its the only way he can stabilize the continent. But goes on to tell him his main motivation is to rule as he sees fit, even if its only temporary. A small nation could survive on its own and Tarquinn could have what he wants, but his lawful nature is what makes him want order. His nation so far is very orderly, but there are still horribly evil acts going on everywhere for no good reason. Sure there is reason, but lesser forms of punishment would be just as good. The thing is. Tarquinn is uniting the lands because thats the only way he can keep his kingdom. He wants the Kingdom to live out his indulgences, and he goes through horribly evil means to do them, even when less or no violences at all would solve the problem fine.
The only "redeemable" part of his plan is just so he can protect his own assets. its just an excuse. "hey i'm kinda helping, so its ok for me to do it"

-The other thing is with the scale and comparison between good and evil acts. Someone said kill a thousand to save a thousand. But that is still considered an evil act for a good end. furthermore doing something like that is by and large only seen as acceptable if its the ONLY CHOICE. If you have the choice of killing a child or having a 20% chance of succeeding. you take the 20% chance. if you have a 0% or maybe 1% chance of succeeding you can commit the evil act. will still be evil, but justifiable.

If you kill a thousand to save a thousand, and there was a third option, you still did the wrong thing. And even if there was no other option, it was still an evil act.

mirageknuckler

2011-04-20, 08:32 PM

In regards to Thog's charisma, might he be a desert half-orc? They don't get -2 to charisma. He's certainly a dessert half-orc!

That's entirely plausible. Their favored class is barbarian and they don't get points taken off in Charisma. However, they don't get extra Strength points like normal half-orcs. Has he ever displayed Low-Light Vision or Heat Endurance (two racial traits of desert half-orcs)?

Kish

2011-04-20, 08:40 PM

In order to be broken, it has to be unable to do what it is supposed to do. What do you think it is supposed to do, and how do you think it fails at it?
If it's possible to be "unaligned" in the 4ed alignment system and still be at utterly evil as Tarquin, then I don't know what the 4ed alignment system's goal is, but I'm utterly unable to think of anything it successfully does, because it has no meaning.

Seerow

2011-04-20, 08:52 PM

If it's possible to be "unaligned" in the 4ed alignment system and still be at utterly evil as Tarquin, then I don't know what the 4ed alignment system's goal is, but I'm utterly unable to think of anything it successfully does, because it has no meaning.

The point of it is that it is meaningless. There is no alignment system in the traditional sense. As I understand it, you are only 'aligned' if you are explicitly serving some greater power that is Evil/Good in the absolute sense. The vast majority of PCs and NPCs are unaligned. For the most part you're looking at things like Demons, Devils, Angels, and Gods as aligned. Creatures that serve these explicitly (such as Clerics, Paladins, demon worshipers, etc) can also be aligned. But the majority of the time you're simply unaligned.

berrew

2011-04-20, 10:43 PM

Thog on the other-hand, From the first time I started reading the comic, I've never seen him as evil. He's too child like. Yes he does fit the bill nicely, but I believe it's due to bad influence more than bad nature. Thog, if given the chance, could turn out to be as good as Elan. But for now, he's mainly doing what he knows, which is being very destructive.No one has claimed that Thog is irredeemably evil, which seems to be what you are arguing against. The claim is that right now, he is evil - and I see no real evidence to deny that. That he has some "innocent" qualities does not mean that he isn't evil. Note, for example what seems to be his demeanor on the last frame of http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0351.html , which occurs before his slaughter of many innocent civilians (and is mentioned in this strip). Or the way he frightens his companions in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html. He seems to be a homicidally violent character whenever he's not distracted by something - see, for example the way that Tarquin had him in a "Hannibal" outfit.

theNater

2011-04-20, 10:51 PM

If it's possible to be "unaligned" in the 4ed alignment system and still be at utterly evil as Tarquin, then I don't know what the 4ed alignment system's goal is, but I'm utterly unable to think of anything it successfully does, because it has no meaning.
Near as I can tell, it's a shorthand used to indicate certain kinds of traits that come up often in a heroes-and-villains storyline. For example, when a GM sees a monster that's chaotic evil, they know they're dealing with a creature who is happy to break things for the sake of breaking things.

If Tarquin were an NPC in a module, he would probably be listed as evil, to quickly and easily indicate his desire to conquer and enslave. But if he were a PC, and everything he says to Elan is true(in spirit as well as word), he would probably be listed as unaligned. In that case, the note "is evil" wouldn't be necessary or helpful, as the player would have enough of an understanding of Tarquin's psychology to know what he'd do in any situation regardless.

BriarHobbit

2011-04-21, 01:21 AM

Killer Angel

2011-04-21, 02:34 AM

In regards to Thog's charisma, might he be a desert half-orc? They don't get -2 to charisma.

The dump stat is Int, so he raised Cha. :smalltongue:

Icedaemon

2011-04-21, 10:40 AM

3. Ice Cream and Puppies, umm, ever see an evil Character really looking for those thing? I haven't (but maybe I haven't been around long enough.)

Oh please, many successful evil people like puppies. Ice cream is also nice.

Attempting to power attack someone from behind might inherently be a slightly evil/chaotic act (though not on a scale large enough that it would cause one to drop to a different alignment bracket without a great other slightly villainous acts), but liking ice cream or even puppies is not inherently good. Preferences are not part of one's alignment.

JSSheridan

2011-04-21, 10:46 AM

On a separate note, I'm concerned that Roy could be in trouble in his fight. His AC is bad, and Barbarians are designed to operate with minimal armor. Thog has had the opportunity to gather eps while Roy was dead.

Normally, I understand that Roy wouldn't get XP while dead, but I'm not so sure it's true in this story. He saw and learned several things while he was worm food, even if he had no influence over these events.

Caemos

2011-04-21, 10:56 AM

It could also be that Thog really didn't get that much experience from his fights, since most of them probably weren't enough to challenge him (stone giant excluded). And given the fact that Oots keeps (arguably) winning, there have probably been a lot of times where he "didn't overcome the challenge." Maybe that keeps it balanced?

Icedaemon

2011-04-21, 11:11 AM

It's odd, considering that like Thog, Tarquin his own fans who are willing to forget the fact that he, too, is a mass murderer.

It's not so much 'forget' as it is liking him despite his excesses - this is a proper villain that one should admire at least a little.

FolcoTook

2011-04-21, 12:32 PM

Anybody noticed Roy started the battle with a big attack on Thogs head and still Thog shows no sign of injury?

How was that possible?

I think on some possibilities:
Thog massive hit points

Rolling a 1 in the damage dice.

Rich forgot to put the damage on the drawing?

If the damage was so low...Roy has no chance at all.

Haven't read all of the comments (on page 4 of a zillion), so this may have already been mentioned...

Another possibility is that Roy just hit him with the flat of the sword to get his attention. Would probably do a little blunt weapon damage that may or may not have been absorbed by Thog's DR.

Zevox

2011-04-21, 12:56 PM

It's not so much 'forget' as it is liking him despite his excesses - this is a proper villain that one should admire at least a little.
No, there are those who seriously argue that he's not evil. Fewer than there were before the slave-burning incident, thankfully, but they're still around. There was just such a discussion going on here in the past few pages even, if I'm not mixing this up with another thread.

Zevox

gamingfreak10

2011-04-21, 01:06 PM

"thog thankful for update on talky-man's relationship status"

facebook joke?

great strip, i love thog but i still hope roy clobbers him XD

Shoelessgdowar

2011-04-21, 01:56 PM

Thog likes puppies (which side note means )
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0051.html
Thog would be good puppy daddy.

People seem to think that after Roy abandon's Belkar to be stabbed repeatedly in the back by Yikyik, while Thog and he chop and hack through Earth creature after Earth Creature, that Thog has the intelligence to realize that the Earth Faerie is anything more then another obstacle. He's busy thinking about puppies. To Thog the majority of Talky-Man's speech is just 'Blah', he may even on some level think he was ordered somewhere in the 'blah's to kill the Earth Faerie.

Thog doesn't hide it, he just says he is alone because he was too busy thinking about puppies to hear the Earth Faerie, otherwise he'd have responded to her question. In addition, even if we assume Thog did realize what she was, Nale may have instructed him to kill the Faerie beforehand just as Zz'dtri handled Celia, and Helga didn't have a fire faerie to kill as far as we know, but then again, she commanded all the fire creatures anyway. Look at the notes Nale gave to Sabine and Thog, he knew how Haley would act vs Roy, so it is not unlikely he ordered Thog to kill the faerie while Roy wasn't looking (Though since such orders were off-panel, the memory of them may be hazy now).

And anyone that defends Miko really has their view of good an evil as skewed as her. She fanatically thinks anyone who disagrees with her is evil or in league with evil. That isn't a lack of social skills, that is a serious level of meglomania, which is a evil trait.

But someone did point out she was a villain. But she was LG, so explain how that can work. There is a difference between an antagonist and a villain. An antagonist can be a good one, a heroic rival (Superman was an Antagonist in Batman: The Dark Knight Returns; The Fantastic Four, Hulk, Wolverine, and Spiderman have been Antagonists in each other's comics), but Miko is a rare instance of a supposedly Good Villain...

But as I've said, too many people care or hate a character because they're given a specific alignment in the comic instead of the character themself. So, for the purposes of those narrow minded people, Belkar is Good (only does Heroic acts, he's a bit unwise and he's a bit feral, but he's a Good Guy), and Thog is Neutral.

And for those defending Solt... Belkar wasn't parroting Haley, he believed Solt was a threat (Belkar has low wisdom, his sense motive, spot, and listen checks all bite), but when he was informed he made a mistake he tried to justify that his mistake wasn't a big deal. Also, Solt's actions speak louder then his words (I'm sorry, but Rich cramming in a joke to mock the FOX News Network only makes me think Solt was meant to be taken as a liar. In nearly 4 months of occupation, Solt would know the Azure City was now A Goblin City. But ask yourself this, you see 3 armed Non-Goblinoids coming from a the Azure City with a cart full of items, a human corpse, The former Ruler of the Azure City's Cat, and then when you tell them you're headed there, they tell you "I hate to tell you this, but Azure conquered by evil goblinoids like months ago", is your reaction if you're innocent going to be, "Oh my, well that is what I get for getting all my information from Fox News Network" or is it going to be, "Oh $#!+, thank <insert deity here> I ran into you... I'm headed somewhere else" and then turning around? Meanwhile if you're not innocent, are you really going to say, "Oh sure, I know, those Gobinoids pay way better then the stinking humans like you you ugly redheaded slut. Shove it in your face, I'm here to make major money." or are you going to wisely deny it and act stupid so you can go sell you wares to the Goblinoids and maybe make some side cash from the foolish escapees who give you information thinking you're an innocent? I still contend until we have a strip that has Solt's orphan gnomish children crying and impoverished, begging for Belkar's aid, that Solt like every other Gnome we've seen in the series, is in league with villains, and that the whole matter was to get in a joke, create further conflict between Celia and Haley, to show the differences in Celia's fanaticism and Haley's moral compass, and to further emphasize and remind us how low Belkar's wisdom score really is.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-21, 02:01 PM

Zevox

2011-04-21, 02:10 PM

Thog likes puppies (which side note means )
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0051.html
Thog would be good puppy daddy.
Of course he would. I mean, just look at what he did (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html) when he (thought he) had one.

:smallsigh:

Zevox

martianmister

2011-04-21, 04:59 PM

And for those defending Solt... Belkar wasn't parroting Haley, he believed Solt was a threat (Belkar has low wisdom, his sense motive, spot, and listen checks all bite), but when he was informed he made a mistake he tried to justify that his mistake wasn't a big deal. Also, Solt's actions speak louder then his words (I'm sorry, but Rich cramming in a joke to mock the FOX News Network only makes me think Solt was meant to be taken as a liar. In nearly 4 months of occupation, Solt would know the Azure City was now A Goblin City. But ask yourself this, you see 3 armed Non-Goblinoids coming from a the Azure City with a cart full of items, a human corpse, The former Ruler of the Azure City's Cat, and then when you tell them you're headed there, they tell you "I hate to tell you this, but Azure conquered by evil goblinoids like months ago", is your reaction if you're innocent going to be, "Oh my, well that is what I get for getting all my information from Fox News Network" or is it going to be, "Oh $#!+, thank <insert deity here> I ran into you... I'm headed somewhere else" and then turning around? Meanwhile if you're not innocent, are you really going to say, "Oh sure, I know, those Gobinoids pay way better then the stinking humans like you you ugly redheaded slut. Shove it in your face, I'm here to make major money." or are you going to wisely deny it and act stupid so you can go sell you wares to the Goblinoids and maybe make some side cash from the foolish escapees who give you information thinking you're an innocent? I still contend until we have a strip that has Solt's orphan gnomish children crying and impoverished, begging for Belkar's aid, that Solt like every other Gnome we've seen in the series, is in league with villains, and that the whole matter was to get in a joke, create further conflict between Celia and Haley, to show the differences in Celia's fanaticism and Haley's moral compass, and to further emphasize and remind us how low Belkar's wisdom score really is.

YOU ARE MY HERO! :amused:

That's the most hillarious post I ever seen in this forum!

harkle1876

2011-04-21, 06:04 PM

I don't think Thog is evil. He is obviously lawful good, but he is so lawful good that he views everybody else as unlawful which justifies his continuous killing of them.

goblin mook 42

2011-04-21, 08:36 PM

This is just a wild guess, but how can we be sure that it is Thog. He has been surprisingly intelligent, and Sabine can shape-shift. This might really be Sabine, and it could be part of one of Nale's overcomplicated plans.

Swordpriest

2011-04-21, 09:03 PM

Shoeless .... you can officially consider me amused, for what that's worth. :smallamused:

Lurkmoar

2011-04-21, 10:14 PM

I don't think Thog is evil. He is obviously lawful good, but he is so lawful good that he views everybody else as unlawful which justifies his continuous killing of them.

The sarcasm reading is off the scale!

And I doubt Thog in the arena is Sabine... that would just be silly. Sabine doesn't strike me as the kind of demon to let herself be tied up for any length of time. A short amount of time maybe, but not a length!

Cerlis

2011-04-22, 12:58 AM

And anyone that defends Miko really has their view of good an evil as skewed as her. She fanatically thinks anyone who disagrees with her is evil or in league with evil. That isn't a lack of social skills, that is a serious level of meglomania, which is a evil trait.

so your not evil if you do evil things, but have a lame excuse for it. but you are evil if you freak out when your entire world views come crashing down , or when you lie to someone(in refrence to saying Roy is more evil than a murderer cus he lied)

got it. Thanks.
-----------
P.S. How is thog being smarter than usual? Hasnt he used big words before?

:thog: "Thog only multiclass to fighter for 2 levels to get bonus feats"

:thog: "Thog reluctantly agree"

Orcs in this comic have pronoun issues and forget a minor word here or there. but not even accents have stopped people from using big words.

:belkar: "He can say stratosphere but can't even pronounce "the" correctly?"

Killer Angel

2011-04-22, 04:05 AM

Sabine doesn't strike me as the kind of demon to let herself be tied up for any length of time. A short amount of time maybe, but not a length!

Why I'm associating Sabine tied up, with the BoEF?
Do I need professional help? :smalltongue:
Or, more simply, should I avoid totally the threads discussing F.A.T.A.L.? :smallbiggrin:

Icedaemon

2011-04-22, 06:28 AM

Trees and Treefolk, Undead. He enjoys killing them. Now, as my statement about Belkar with being a Ranger infers, I understand that certain classes and people target certain foes. So hating a certain group doesn't decide alignment, the opposing of alignment does. So Durkon hating undead would make him Good actually, his hating Trees and Treefolk (which are neutral) makes him a Dwarf (by GitP's rules of Dwarves hate Trees and Treefolk), but by your definition of liking killing, Durkon is evil.

Opposing an alignment is not a symbol of one's alignment. The absurdity (struggling not to use harsher terms here) of suggesting that anyone who opposes evil is good is the most annoying thing that standard adventurer party #3766472 does. Good and evil are not uniform sides in some grand conflict, they are collections of certain dominant personality traits and indicators of one's activities.

Racism can probably be considered an evil trait inherent to a certain culture. However, since possessing one evil trait does not make one evil, this means that a society which dislikes, say, orcs is not inherently evil (unless the said racism were the defining trait of the said culture, to the point that it is taken to genocidal extreme by a large percentage of the population).

Durkon does not enjoy killing from what I've seen, but considers killing treefolk and undead necessary for survival. Not quite the same thing.

Even so, mildly enjoying killing is not quite an evil enough trait that it default's a person to evil, though it would probably indicate that the person is not wholly good.

Ummmm, you just proved my point. She is told she isn't redeemed (she doesn't get to be a Paladin in death), but her horse is in LG Heaven, probably in some Paladin's mount stables or pasture, and he will visit her as much as he can. Means she's in the lesser LG areas where Roy went with his grandfather and mother and brother. They even say they will usher her to her destination (they couldn't usher her to anywhere except LG heaven). She won't even have to sit in limbo with Eugene.

Logically, Miko belongs in Acheron - violent, driven by prejudice and belief, ideals that might have once been grand but have been twisted.

Maybe she'll meet Right-Eye?

hamishspence

2011-04-22, 07:06 AM

I've been hypothesising that for a while. There can be Lawful Good paladins in Acheron (any paladin of Wee Jas might be expected to go there after death)-

so the idea of a paladin's mount being able to visit someone in Acheron, doesn't seem that far-fetched.

It would go well with a drop from LG to LN for Miko at the end of her life.

uchiha191942

2011-04-22, 08:40 AM

Not to go off topic from were the main conversation is going, but I think in this comic Haley looks a bit more pale then usual...

Gift Jeraff

2011-04-22, 07:50 PM

I'm starting to hope the next cast page has every single character's alignment listed to end all of this once and for all. (Well, it would have to be the final compilation book, since the cast pages don't spoil characters not yet properly introduced.)

EDIT: Speculation:I can see one of the following happening:
-Roy disarms Thog->Thog rages and starts to strangle/rip off Roy's head->right before Roy is killed, Belkar throws the Halfling Courage Rock at Thog's head, getting Thog's attention->Thog breaks into where Belkar is, allowing for a mass jailbreak->Geoff's true colours start to show as he does not want Ian to escape despite this being the perfect opportunity.

-Thog is in a position to kill Roy, but decides not to because
:thog: thog like talky-man. thog enjoy fighting with talky-man and see thog's self in talky-man. probably because thog just palette swap of talky-man with fangs. talky-man teach thog many things such as talk better and take third level of fighter. thog sure not-nale miss talky-man as much as thog miss nale.

Lurkmoar

2011-04-22, 08:26 PM

Why I'm associating Sabine tied up, with the BoEF?
Do I need professional help? :smalltongue:
Or, more simply, should I avoid totally the threads discussing F.A.T.A.L.? :smallbiggrin:

The mind makes connections. But why DID YOU SHARE THE FATAL CONNECTION!

But seriously, Thog in arena=Sabine would just... be WTF.

factotum

2011-04-23, 02:05 AM

I'm starting to hope the next cast page has every single character's alignment listed to end all of this once and for all.

There are still people who insist Belkar is NOT Chaotic Evil, even though he's self-identified as Chaotic and been identified as having an evil output in the Kilonazi range by the deva who interviewed Roy...I don't think explicitly listing their alignment on the cast page would help! :smallwink:

ThePhantasm

2011-04-23, 06:06 AM

"The next cast page"? Is there a new one forthcoming? :smallconfused:

FatJose

2011-04-23, 09:30 AM

There are still people who insist Belkar is NOT Chaotic Evil, even though he's self-identified as Chaotic Evil and been identified as having an evil output in the Kilonazi range by the deva who interviewed Roy...I don't think explicitly listing their alignment on the cast page would help! :smallwink:

Fixed it for ya. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html)
No one will ever accept it...sadly.

Gift Jeraff

2011-04-23, 10:18 AM

"The next cast page"? Is there a new one forthcoming? :smallconfused:
Um, yes? All the compilation books have one except the first (which has the online one).

ThePhantasm

2011-04-23, 11:06 AM

Um, yes? All the compilation books have one except the first (which has the online one).

Sorry, I wasn't thinking of the ones in the books. I thought you were referring to the online one since you connected it to having the alignment stuff settled for forum-goers (many of whom don't have books). Yeah, if you mean a book cast page, I agree with factotum that it definitely still won't help.

Kish

2011-04-23, 01:35 PM

Sorry, I wasn't thinking of the ones in the books. I thought you were referring to the online one since you connected it to having the alignment stuff settled for forum-goers (many of whom don't have books). Yeah, if you mean a book cast page, I agree with factotum that it definitely still won't help.
Yes, it would cause a very slight refining of the "X isn't evil" argument, to "X was evil at the time Rich said that but has since reformed, as shown in THIS STRIP!"

("But...but he wasn't even in that strip!"
("Exactly! He didn't do anything evil!")

Burner28

2011-04-23, 02:29 PM

Yes, it would cause a very slight refining of the "X isn't evil" argument, to "X was evil at the time Rich said that but has since reformed, as shown in THIS STRIP!"

("But...but he wasn't even in that strip!"
("Exactly! He didn't do anything evil!")

Wow! Will this kind of thing never end?:smallconfused:

ThePhantasm

2011-04-23, 02:38 PM

Wow! Will this kind of thing never end?:smallconfused:

The forum has destroyed my optimism concerning such matters.

Lurkmoar

2011-04-23, 03:00 PM

Wow! Will this kind of thing never end?:smallconfused:

Just close your eyes and it all goes away! I also think it ends when you stop caring... which will probably be never for me. I care too much.

But yup, speculation is fun. Baseless speculation is fun too, but it tends to get pretty annoying.

faustin

2011-04-23, 03:24 PM

Wow! Will this kind of thing never end?

Sorrry, the anti-logic field is still working.

ThePhantasm

2011-04-23, 04:14 PM

Sorrry, the anti-logic field is still working.

And without our logic, we are just pointy-eared monkeys. While the illogical theories - they remain a dragon.

Gift Jeraff

2011-04-23, 04:46 PM

Maybe if Rich posted, at the top of every strip, the alignment of every character featured in that strip at the time of that strip, we'd get...half the amount of these discussions?

Maybe I'm too optimistic.

Burner28

2011-04-23, 04:56 PM

It's odd, considering that like Thog, Tarquin his own fans who are willing to forget the fact that he, too, is a mass murderer.

Wait Tarquin is still being treated as if he is Lawful Neutral? By who? I thought that was over.

Boogastreehouse

2011-04-25, 12:58 AM

At some point Roy is going to realize that Belkar, while still evil, has been committing some good acts.

What I wonder is whether Roy will remember this little conversation:

"You're trying to be Lawful Good. People forget how crucial it is to keep trying, even if they screw it up now and then."

I don't mean to suggest that Roy will believe that Belkar has become good, or even that Belkar wants to become good. What I wonder is whether he will see that Belkar has started trying something, and if it will remind Roy that he himself didn't get into heaven on his deeds and his successes so much as on his intentions.

I wonder if Roy will start to wonder whether it was a mistake to just write Belkar off as dead and damned, and to wonder still further what might have happened if he had tried to save him, both literally and figuratively.

Icedaemon

2011-04-25, 01:23 AM

Wait Tarquin is still being treated as if he is Lawful Neutral? By who? I thought that was over.

The term 'fan' does not always imply 'fool willing to ignore all evidence that does not support said fool's opinions'.

Is it really so bizarre for you to think that people might like Tarquin in spite of his villainy? I've been in both 'Tarquin is apparently quite evil' and 'Tarquin is apparently quite awesome' camps from pretty much this storyline's beginning.

There are, apparently, a few fans of Tarquin who are blinded by his awesome, but most of us (I hope) are capable of liking him without making weak excuses.

Swordpriest

2011-04-25, 08:52 AM

The term 'fan' does not always imply 'fool willing to ignore all evidence that does not support said fool's opinions'.

Is it really so bizarre for you to think that people might like Tarquin in spite of his villainy? I've been in both 'Tarquin is apparently quite evil' and 'Tarquin is apparently quite awesome' camps from pretty much this storyline's beginning.

There are, apparently, a few fans of Tarquin who are blinded by his awesome, but most of us (I hope) are capable of liking him without making weak excuses.

I take it you haven't read this thread, which seems to be 90% "Tarquin is really a good guy" mixed in with "Roy is really evil"? :smallconfused:

It's not about thinking Tarquin is awesome, it's about how many people apparently think that a slave-burning, torturing, murdering rapist is really a nice guy and the heroes are actually teh villains.