TWF and PA

[sengmeng]

two-handed power attacking seems to be the best fighter build, but everyone seems to be ignoring the possibilities represented by power attacking with two weapons if you have oversized TWF and twinned one-handed weapons.

what about a human fighter who does this? and what feats could round this out better?

{table] level|Class|feats
1|Ftr|TWF, Oversized TWF, Weapon focus: one-handed weapon
2|Ftr|Dodge
3|Ftr|Mobility
4|Ftr|Weapon Specialization: one-handed weapon
5|Ftr|
6|Ftr|Spring Attack, Power Attack
7|Ftr|
8|Ftr|ITWF
9|Tempest| feat?
10|Tempest|
11|Tempest|
12|Tempest|GTWF
13|Tempest|
14|Ftr|
15|Ftr|2 feats?
16|Ftr|
17|Ftr|PTWF
18|Ftr|feat?
19|Ftr|feat?
20|Ftr?|[/table]

The idea is that they can power attack with both hands, and the Tempest PrC reduces the penalties so they have mathematically equal damage output (as near as I can tell) to a two-handed fighter. At 20th level, I was thinking they would have found some way to get hasted or something, giving them 9 attacks per round, which compared to a two-handed fighter, is 4 more chances to roll the mystical natural 20. It may be a valid strategy to simply Power Attack for -20 with that many attacks. I was even thinking that the weapon could be heavy picks, since we're relying on 20's; x4 crit, anyone?

[Greenish]

two-handed power attacking seems to be the best fighter build, but everyone seems to be ignoring the possibilities represented by power attacking with two weapons if you have oversized TWF and twinned one-handed weapons.Well, you can do it, but you'll need to burn feats to TWF chain (and pump your dex for it) and take the TWF penalty, and in the end you might do similar damage as a regular charger.

The exceptions being Revenant Blade and Exotic Weapon Master who can get 2:1 PA on both weapons, but those aren't ignored by everyone.

[Daftendirekt]

Unless you take Shock Trooper, this is just going to be "Alternate Flurry of Misses".

[Sacrieur]

Unless you take Shock Trooper, this is just going to be "Alternate Flurry of Misses".

Agreed, TWF is only useful once you get PTWF, and by that time you're already in the broken realm of Epic Level.

[Greenish]

Agreed, TWF is only useful once you get PTWF, and by that time you're already in the broken realm of Epic Level.PTWF only gives you a fourth offhand attack. I don't see how that would suddenly make TWF useful if it wasn't already.

And as pointed out, you can squeeze quite a bit of damage from a TWF build.

[Sacrieur]

PTWF only gives you a fourth offhand attack. I don't see how that would suddenly make TWF useful if it wasn't already.

And as pointed out, you can squeeze quite a bit of damage from a TWF build.

By the time you reach that level the disparity of the negative will be negligible. I didn't quite mean that PTWF itself is what makes it worthwhile, but rather that it takes until that level to make it worthwhile.

[Douglas]

Let's see, you've spent 8 feats, 5 PrC levels, and a bunch of stat points in a secondary or tertiary ability score in order to be... on par with a two-hander who made no such effort. Yeah, great power build there, let me tell you.:smallsigh:

[sengmeng]

I have 5 question marks on there for feats, soooooo... what to do to make this more viable? Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization seem like they would help a bit, but then there's three left... Improved Crit?

[Greenish]

I didn't quite mean that PTWF itself is what makes it worthwhile, but rather that it takes until that level to make it worthwhile.But it doesn't. You can get 2:1 PA returns from both of your weapons at ECL, and 2:1 returns & 1.5x Str from both weapons at ECL 15. You'll surpass the vanilla charger.

[sengmeng]

Let's see, you've spent 8 feats,
and I don't know what to do with the leftover ones, so who cares?


5 PrC levels
5 more levels of fighter makes a two-handed weapon better?


and a bunch of stat points in a secondary or tertiary ability score
Yes, it relies on having two high scores. Your point?

[sengmeng]

But it doesn't. You can get 2:1 PA returns from both of your weapons at ECL, and 2:1 returns & 1.5x Str from both weapons at ECL 15. You'll surpass the vanilla charger.

How does this fit with my build plan?

[Greenish]

How does this fit with my build plan?Fit in EWP and WF for, say, Dragonsplits (you can drop the OTWF), then put in a level of Exotic Weapon Master and select the Uncanny Blow stunt.

[Edit]: And drop the Spring Attack chain, it's a trap. You'll want charger feats and Pounce if you want that build to compete with 2h chargers.

[Telonius]

5 more levels of fighter makes a two-handed weapon better?


Not necessarily five levels of Fighter - four levels of Fighter and one of Lion Totem Barbarian. But yes, they do make a two-handed weapon better, because it makes that two-handed weapon hurt more, and hit more often. Fighter gives you two feats - Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper, or Leap Attack and Powerful Charge. (Choose whichever set of two you didn't get from the currently-blank feat slots). Barbarian gives you Pounce.

Technically, one-handed weapons will also benefit from these feats, but not to the degree that two-handed weapons would because of how normal damage and Power Attack damage work. Power-Attack damage from a one-handed weapon would be dx+Strength+Power Attack. For a two-handed, it's dx+1.5Str+2(Power Attack).

If you hit twice from Two-Weapon Spring Attack, you'd get:
2dx+2(Str)+2(Power Attack).

If you hit twice from a Pounce attack with a two-handed weapon, you get:
2dx+3(Str)+4(Power Attack).

Note that's even without comparing whether or not they have Leap Attack or Shock Trooper. This is why, even with oversize TWF, it's a good rule of thumb that two-weapon fighting is only preferable when you have some source of other extra bonus damage (such as sneak attack, Favored Enemy, Sudden Strike, or Skirmish). Spending more feats to do less damage isn't optimal.

[Greenish]

If you hit twice from Two-Weapon Spring Attack, you'd get:
2dx+2(Str)+2(Power Attack).It'd be 1.5xStr. Offhand attacks only get 0.5, even with OTWF.

[kiryoku]

where would i find shocktrooper book and page number would be helpful and thanks in advance.

[Keld Denar]

Complete Warrior. I don't have the page number off the top of my head, but its in the chapter right after PrCs with all the feats, in the back of that section with the other Tactical feats.

And drop the Tempest. It actually makes you WORSE at TWFing. The boons it gives you comes out to be a +2 to hit and the ability to apply bad feats to bad weapons (most of the time in D&D TWFing, you have paired weapons, dissimilar weapons is uncommon). It costs you 3 bad feats (Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack) which in turn encourages you to make Spring Attacks, which is contradictory to the entire premise of TWF...IE stand still and trade full attacks so that you get to make all of your extra attacks. Whats the point in having 9 attacks in a round if you can only make 2?

EDIT: And you'd be best off taking fewer levels of Fighter, especially if you don't need the feats. Take something that gives you some actual class features, preferably immunities. Snag some Occult Slayer for the Mind Blank effect. Grab some Pious Templar for Mettle, bonus feats, and Pally casting (check out SpC for actual GOOD Pally spells). Do SOMETHING that isn't moar fighter levels.

[SurlySeraph]

I wrote up a build based on charging with light weapons a while back. It was based around getting flat damage bonuses and damage multipliers, since you multiply flat damage bonuses. Shadow Blade for +Dex to damage, maybe Swashbuckler for +Int, +1 Valorous Collision weapons (Valorous doubles damage on a charge, Collision adds +5 flat damage), and a Wand Chamber of Rhino's Rush.

Also, you need Pounce. Either a level in Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian or the Snow Tiger Berserker feat.

Also, yeah, Dragonsplits. They count as light for TWF penalties, but you can PA with them. Probably a good idea, if they're allowed.

[Firechanter]

Scrap all that and go Warblade focussing on Tiger Claw maneuvers.

You get stuff like Dancing/Raging Mongoose and Pounce, and other maneuvers that support TWF. For instance, the Blood In The Water stance that increases your attack and damage for every crit you make, and Warblades have an easier time confirming threats. Picture that with a 15-20 threat range (such as Keen Scimitar).

I forget how many attacks you can get per round exactly, but it's gonna be 11 or so. Might actually skip GTWF, considering it only gives you one attack at -10.

So, imagine Pouncing on your unsuspecting prey and ripping it apart with 10 attacks; a full 6 of which are at your highest attack bonus (minus TWF penalties). That's gonna be around 3 crits per round, and every crit gives you a stacking +1 to attack and damage. The more you crit, the more you crit again; who doesn't love positive feedback loops like that?

Oh, but pass on Bloodclaw Master for that. It's a trap.

(Of course, most of those stunts works at least as well with a TH weapon with lower feat cost, but such is the fate of all TWF.)

P.S.: drawback is your co-players may wish to force-feed you a book when your combat turn takes longer than everyone elses' combined due to the sheer number of rolls you make.