How on earth did they do that?! Games workshop must have one heck of a legal team..

[druid91]

Well I was looking up the warhammer copyrights stuff to settle an argument I had.

namely that games workshop had a copyright to the eldar.

I said they couldn't they were in the sillmarillian.

So I checked and they did. This was not the most confusing thing there though.

THEY HAVE A COPYRIGHT ON CHAOS....

How? I would think that chaos would be public domain. Now daemons of the warp, chaos marines and so on? I could see them having a copyright on those, but the list I saw simply said chaos....

[endoperez]

I assume they actually have protected the concept behind Chaos (Warhammer) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(Warhammer)) instead of chaos in general (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(disambiguation)).

Similarly, I assume they have protected Eldar (Warhammer 40 000) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eldar_(Warhammer_40,000)) but not everything that someone has sometimes been called Eldar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eldar).

[Sacrieur]

The above. Though I wouldn't be surprised considering there are patents on sections of human DNA. And despite the controversy, they still exist. I just don't see them really flaunting it without getting slapped.

[druid91]

I assume they actually have protected the concept behind Chaos (Warhammer) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(Warhammer)) instead of chaos in general (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(disambiguation)).

Similarly, I assume they have protected Eldar (Warhammer 40 000) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eldar_(Warhammer_40,000)) but not everything that someone has sometimes been called Eldar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eldar).

How would that work?

And I thought the point of those was so that people couldn't take your stuff. If someone else is already out there using elves, called eldar... and you call your space elves eldar... doesn't that open them up to basically being told, that no they can't stop someone from calling some generic elven race, space or otherwise.. eldar? If so what was the point in getting the copyright in the first place?

Same as the above with chaos. It just seems ridiculous.

[Eldan]

Pepsi tried to copyright a shade of blue.

[Ravens_cry]

Pepsi tried to copyright a shade of blue.
Was it sentient?:smalltongue:

[Eldan]

:smallbiggrin:

Of course! That must have been the reason.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I assume you mean "trademark", and not "copyright"? There's actually a big difference between the two.

You can copyright the actual text and substance of your work. For instance, the text of the Silmarillion is copyrighted. So are the specific descriptions of Eldar and Chaos in the Warhammer books. The actual words are copyrighted, and you cannot reproduce them without permission. However, you cannot copyright a concept, such as the race of Eldar in Warhammer.

You have to trademark concepts and logos, and also specific names. To trademark a name, you have to show a strong enough association by the public with your product and your product alone. For instance, the game "Mirror's Edge" has a trademarked name, because people only associate that phrase with the game released by EA. Trademarks can also apply to characters, and to concepts like races or (as mentioned) the idea of Chaos in that particular fantasy universe.

The idea is not that the name is copyrighted, but that the concept is copyrighted. If the name is unique enough, it can be copyrighted through association. You can use the name "Eldar", but if you use the name Eldar to describe a race which is sufficiently and distinguishably close to Warhammer's Eldar, that's trademark violation.

[Gnoman]

Marvel has trademarks on the Aesir of Norse Mythology. This is nothing new.

[CountvonVillain]

Marvel has trademarks on the Aesir of Norse Mythology. This is nothing new.

Note to self: find a way to trademark Greek Mythology. All ur Classics r belong 2 me!:smalltongue:

[Gaelbert]

The BBC owns the rights to police boxes, took them away from the police in court if I remember correctly. Of course, Dr. Who isn't just a show, it's an institution.

[Syka]

Keep in mind, as well, that within different industries trademarks and copyrights don't carry over. We discussed this in one of my classes recently.

Basically, Nike (which is from Greek mythology) is trademarked and such for shoes and sports apparel and the like.

A car maker can come along and trademark it, though, for their industry.

A good real life example of this is "Espirit"- both a car model and a clothing manufacturer, neither of which have anything to do with the other.

But when...Ferrari I think tried doing...F150 I believe it was, for a limited edition model, Ford sued them over trademark (or copyright or whatever) infringement. Now, no one will confuse a Ferrari F-1 with a Ford truck but the principle remained.


And actually here (http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/10/autos/ford_ferrari_f150/index.htm)is the article.

Essentially it comes down to if it will affect the brand. Video games are different from literature, and I doubt that Eldar is used in other literature than the Silmarillion.

Keep in mind, too, that the Trademark office, et al, saw some merit and I'm sure the studio had to defend their reasoning and limit how it would be applied.

[Anarion]

Use of those terms also depends on what your motivation for using them was. If you call something eldar or chaos because you stole it from Games Workshop, that's a copyright violation. If you call something chaos because it's a common, highly descriptive word, that's not a copyright violation.

Now, how in the world could a court ever tell whether you used chaos because you were copying from Games Workshop, rather than coming up with the name independently?
1. You might be stupid enough to write an e-mail or something where you say you're doing this (don't laugh, Microsoft did something similar when they got sued for antitrust).
2. You don't just copy the name, you copy the concept, art, or associated terminology such that it seems more likely than not that you stole the name.

disclaimer: the above is in no way authoritative of the law, and if anyone actually wants fine details of copyright, consult a lawyer (or pm me in a year when I finish my course in copyright law next spring:smallwink:)

[factotum]

The BBC owns the rights to police boxes, took them away from the police in court if I remember correctly.

Since police boxes were already falling into disuse when Dr. Who first started in 1963, I doubt the police fought all that hard over it... :smallwink:

[Gaelbert]

Since police boxes were already falling into disuse when Dr. Who first started in 1963, I doubt the police fought all that hard over it... :smallwink:

Hush, you. That makes for a boring story.
I read a Dr. Who comic once where the Doctor said he liked visiting Britain in the 1950s because it was the only place his TARDIS ever fit in. And then he parked it next to a real police box.

[Ravens_cry]

Eh, GW's legal team can't be that good. After all, look what Blizzard has gotten away with. *cough* Starcraft*hack*Warcraft*wheeze*

[Adlan]

Eh, GW's legal team can't be that good. After all, look what Blizzard has gotten away with. *cough* Starcraft*hack*Warcraft*wheeze*

That shows the limits of Trademarks. Change things just enough, use different enough names, and even though everyone can see it, they are legally separate.

[Fjolnir]

In 1996, the BBC applied to the UK Patent Office to register the TARDIS as a trademark. This was challenged by the Metropolitan Police who felt that they owned the rights to the police box image. However, the Patent Office found that there was no evidence that the Metropolitan Police — or any other police force — had ever registered the image as a trademark. In addition, the BBC had been selling merchandise based on the image for over three decades without complaint by the police. The Patent Office issued a ruling in favour of the BBC in 2002.

from wikipedia

[KillianHawkeye]

Pepsi tried to copyright a shade of blue.

UPS has trademarked their particular shade of brown, so this does not surprise me.

[Asthix]

This reminds me of the woman in Spain who tried to copyright the sun. Her rationale? You didn't think of it first.

At least Games Workshop isn't terribly evil of a company. I'm actually kind of glad they have the chaos copyright.

[Tyndmyr]

At least Games Workshop isn't terribly evil of a company.

Never before have I seen something so wrong. Not even when people posted that monks were too good to play.

You know why the models are so expensive? Because they're made from baby kittens.

[The Glyphstone]

Never before have I seen something so wrong. Not even when people posted that monks were too good to play.

You know why the models are so expensive? Because they're made from baby kittens.

I still think they mix trace amounts of crack cocaine or something into the molds. It's the only way they can keep people buying their plastic sets.

[Gaius Marius]

How on earth did they do that?! Games workshop must have one heck of a legal team

Chaos pact, obviously!

What, you think THEY came up with these? :smallwink:

edit: Didn't Marvel and DC succeeded at copyrighting "Super-Hero"?

[Dacia Brabant]

Essentially it comes down to if it will affect the brand. Video games are different from literature, and I doubt that Eldar is used in other literature than the Silmarillion.

There are Warhammer 40K novels that not only feature Eldar but include the word in the title. I'm not sure if Christopher Tolkien ever sued or threatened to sue them though over that, and it's possible that the 40K Eldar are sufficiently distinct from Middle-earth Eldar to not merit a lawsuit. Elves and orcs/orks (JRRT actually used both spellings) are so ubiquitous now that I don't think the Tolkien Estate can claim ownership of them outside the Middle-earth Legendarium anyway.

[Mewtarthio]

Hush, you. That makes for a boring story.
I read a Dr. Who comic once where the Doctor said he liked visiting Britain in the 1950s because it was the only place his TARDIS ever fit in. And then he parked it next to a real police box.

Okay, I guess this is as good a time as any to ask this: What's a police box? I mean, I know it's a blue thing that looks like Doctor Who's time machine, but what is it supposed to do? Is it a box that arrests people? Because that's what it sounds like.

[Imperial Psycho]

It's basically a phone box. But it calls the police.

[WalkingTarget]

Okay, I guess this is as good a time as any to ask this: What's a police box? I mean, I know it's a blue thing that looks like Doctor Who's time machine, but what is it supposed to do? Is it a box that arrests people? Because that's what it sounds like.

Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_box) you go.

In short, it's basically a miniature police station. It had a phone (usable from inside or outside) with a direct line to an actual station, an incident book, and a first aid kit (and maybe other supplies). The light on top was controlled by the main station to alert the area's patrol officer to contact the station.

[grimbold]

i believe that the WarHammer stuff is different enough that it merits its own copyright

[Prime32]

edit: Didn't Marvel and DC succeeded at copyrighting "Super-Hero"?And "superhero". "Super hero" is okay for other people to use though.

[Gnoman]

orcs/orks (JRRT actually used both spellings)
Can you provide a book and page number for this? I've never seen "ork" in any Tolkien book.

[Dacia Brabant]

Can you provide a book and page number for this? I've never seen "ork" in any Tolkien book.

Sure. Morgoth's Ring, p. 414, is one such example. Also see The Adventures of Tom Bombadil and The Peoples of Middle-earth.

In case you're interested, there's a linguistic issue Tolkien was dealing with, in that British English tends to lose the /k/ sound of a hard "c" when followed by certain vowels in morphology, becoming a soft "c" or /s/ sound, and he didn't want "orcish" to be pronounced "orsish" so toward the end of his writings he started using "k" for noun and adjective forms alike. For whatever reason--I assume to maintain continuity with the previous books--his son retained the original spelling when he compiled and edited The Silmarillion, so apart from some of JRRT's notes and Middle-earth history materials that's how it's remained.

[arinallen]

Pretty much everything is open source. However, this might still preclude misrepresentation, and the exclusive use aspect would need to be preserved.

For example, a trademarked Chaos symbol could be incorporated into a miniature, without legal right to the trade mark, just so long as the trademark is not used to represent the miniature itself. The brand is what is trademarked, not the product. An exact miniature design, a product, might be copy righted or patented, but a variation on that would be a new invention.

Copying the style of something, even down to words, phrases and symbols, would be open source. If you customize something to make it your own, without misrepresentation, you are free and clear, and you would own the copy right to that.

Open source would also permit copying something copy righted or patented, exactly, without requiring permission, but it may entail royalties responsibilities to do so.

Game's workshop may own the Chaos brand trademark, and have a right to exclusive use of this, as a trade mark; they may own the rights to the exact products they invent, but they do not own the word, the concept, the style, or the reference to their own brand. Anyone can use those for any open source purpose.

Incorporating a trademarked Chaos symbol in your own miniature, even for sale, would be similar to referencing it in your writing or art. Do not misrepresent your brand as their brand, but if your miniature looks like a variation of exactly the same style, that is perfectly acceptable. If you incorporate a Slaanesh symbol on the the shoulder plate of a Chaos Space Marine "looking" miniature, this would be perfectly appropriate. However, if you stamped "Games Workshop" onto the slotta base, it 'might' reasonably be interpreted as misrepresentation of the brand. If you stamped "Games Workshop" onto the shoulder pad, however, it might more reasonably be interpreted as a stylistic inclusion, especially if it is marketed appropriately under whatever brand it actually is. Legally required aspects associated with product description and information are the only area where you don't want to get 'artistic' with representation. In any other area, the pen is your sword, and you can do whatever you want with it. It would be absolutely appropriate to say "This is a 'my brand', Games Workshop Slaanesh Chaos Space Marine 'style' miniature, even incorporating a trademarked symbol into the artistic design, you just can't market it as a Games Workshop Slaanesh Chaos Space Marine." Trademark and product are two different things. Trade mark is like a legal name, product is more about art.

The open source utility of information might most appropriately be associated with freedom of speech.

[The Glyphstone]

Great Modthulhu: Thread Necromancy is HERESY. *BLAM*