min/max Frenetic Berzerker Water Orc

[Rosarius]

Hey Guys,

Here's the character I wanted to optimize this time. I lost 3 hours trying to add some Deepwarden levels, but then I gave up.

Water Orc
Feral, Half Minotaur, Lolth-Touched
2 flaws

Spiritual Lion Totem Barbarian 1 Power Attack, Cleave, Endurance, Track
Fighter 1 Battle Jump
Fighter 2 Destructuve Rage, Intimidating Rage
Fighter 3
Fighter 4 Improved Bull Rush
Fighter 5 Steadfast Determination
F.Berzerker 1
F.Berzerker 2
F.Berzerker 3 Leap Attack
F.Berzerker 4
F.Berzerker 5
F.Berzerker 6 Shoch Trooper
F.Berzerker 7
F.Berzerker 8
F.Berzerker 9 Reckless Charge
F.Berzerker 10
Fighter 6 Improved Initiative :smallannoyed:

I'm not sure if Feral gives me Pounce, if not, I can simply change to totem Barbarian.

I have 69 (+29) strenght with Frenzy, 73 with Frenzy and Rage.

Weapon : Valorous Greatsword (with Magebane, Collision, Berzerking, and the list goes on).

PA for 20 gives me 120 damages (Supreme PA x4, Leap attack x3).
3d6 + 14 (collision) + 120 (PA) + 44 (31*1.5) = 189

Multipliers : Battle Jump + Reckless Charge + Valorous = x4

Total damage per hit : 189 x4 + 8d6 (28) = 784

+46/+46/+41/+36/+31 (with Haste ) = 5*784 = 3920 damages

I'm sure there's something wrong, like the Collision weapon coupled with Berzerking weapon. And yeah, what can I do to replace the last level of fighter, which is pretty much useless (or at least replace this feat).

Thanks a lot and excuses for my english.

[ffone]

Yeah might as well replace Fighter-5 with spirit lion totam barbarian-1 (as utterly cliche as the dip is, you're following 'the' ubercharger path so you might a well).

Do the power attack multipliers 'stack' multiplicatively' with the 'general' (battle jump / reckless charge / valorous) multipliers?

[Lateral]

Replace all Fighter levels with Warblade levels. Just do that. NOW.

Also, don't bother taking Destructive Rage. You won't have the feats and it's not good enough to warrant it.

[Quietus]

Replace all Fighter levels with Warblade levels. Just do that. NOW.

Also, don't bother taking Destructive Rage. You won't have the feats and it's not good enough to warrant it.

Except that he needs it for Frenzied Berserker, of course.

[Bobbis]

Having done an ubercharger, get your will save up. Cloak of Resistance +5, +X Wis, Luckstone, whatever.

Otherwise, your party is dead.

[Lateral]

Except that he needs it for Frenzied Berserker, of course.

Oh.

Well, if you can still get all of the feats necessary then go in for Warblade levels. If you can't, then Fighter 2/ Warblade 4 or Psychic Warrior 5/ X class 1 ought to do it.

Or Psychic Warrior 2/ Warblade 4, come to think of it. Do that.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Half minotaur gives you a size increase, right? Go Barbarian 1/Fighter 6 with the Dungeoncrasher (Dungeonscape) alternative class feature. You'll do enough (not crazy, but enough) damage without taking a PrC whose most well known class feature is the constant threat of TPK. If you really want Frenzied Berserker, the progression still works; FB is just delayed one level. Make sure to buy your wizard buddy a pearl of power or two so he can grease you when all the enemies are gone. Benny Hill is much more fun than the Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

[grarrrg]

Benny Hill is much more fun than the Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

That all depends on where you are sitting.

[Keld Denar]

He has Steadfast Determination, which already gives +Con to Will saves. Between Feral, Lolth-Touched, and Half Mino, he's gotta have a Con bonus of 40 easy, which gives a +15 to will saves alone...

[Rosarius]

Wow, 8 answers in less than a hour, english forums are awesome!


Yeah might as well replace Fighter-5 with spirit lion totam barbarian-1

Doesn't the Feral template give me Pounce?


Having done an ubercharger, get your will save up

I have, as Keld Denar said, Steadfast determination... and 38 Con (+14).


Replace all Fighter levels with Warblade levels. Just do that. NOW.

I would lose a lot of useful feats without Fighter :(

Thanks in advance

[Boci]

Doesn't the Feral template give me Pounce?

Yes, but the barb does it without loosing BAB. Do not feral requires monstrous hitdie for its more advanced abilities, class levels won't cut it.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

He has Steadfast Determination, which already gives +Con to Will saves. Between Feral, Lolth-Touched, and Half Mino, he's gotta have a Con bonus of 40 easy, which gives a +15 to will saves alone...What about damage traps? They can easily do enough damage where it's a mere inconvenience for a normal party, but it requires a will save that is quite in doubt, even for a save-optimized FB. That leads to at least one dead party member if the FB wins initiative. He might get out of frenzy on a two the next round, but one round is usually all he needs.

Of course, there is at least one (costly) solution to this problem. Hire a bunch of kender monks (or just small, annoying critters with a high reflex save and evasion). They'll be useless, so they should be cheap enough, and hopefully they can't steal much from the party, but they can usually save/evade against area stuff and stay in the back during fights. Make it so the FB isn't "allowed" to kill any of them, but is incredibly annoyed by them. If a damage trap goes off and the FB fails his save + wins initiative, he targets those annoying little boops.

[Rosarius]

Yeah, forgot about these monster hit dices. I edited the build, what should I change now? Warblade instead of Fighter? What could I take instead of Improved Initiative?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Your Power Attack math is way off. First of all, there's errata on Leap Attack (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a): "you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat." This wording was intentional to not make it multiplicative, so Valorous will fully double the effect. Your normal bonus damage from Power Attack is +4 per -1 thanks to Supreme Power Attack, so increasing this by +100% means +8 per -1, or +160 for -20 to hit (or to AC).

The current version of Reckless Charge is in the Miniatures Handbook, it changes your Charge bonus/penalty to +4 to hit for -4 AC (instead of +2 and -2). It does not double your damage when charging in 3.5. Switch your Rage to Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) so you'll get an extra attack when you full attack. Take Extra Rage twice and you can Whirling Frenzy just as many times/day as you can FB Frenzy. Note that FB Frenzy gives you an extra attack as though via Haste, so you don't need to include Haste in your attack numbers.

Put one level of Exotic Weapon Master in there, and use a one-handed exotic weapon in both hands with Uncanny Blow to get double your Strength bonus to damage instead of x1.5. I'd recommend a Kaorti Resin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a) Scimitar for the 18-20/x4 critical threat and multiplier. Also, put Wrathful Healing on it, you can find it in the book Enemies and Allies in a sidebar on page 20. It costs a +3 and it makes you heal for half the total damage you deal with the weapon. Get some Armbands of Might, when you Power Attack for at least -2 they give you an extra +2 damage, and since it's damage gained from Power Attacking it will be increased to +4 via Leap Attack.

[Hirax]

I don't see any possible benefit to fighter 5, you don't get any save increases, feats, or class abilities from it. You're only getting BAB. You could replace it with another level of barbarian or even a level of ranger and be better off.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Get a second Barbarian level and use the Wolf Totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) variant. Take Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) and every time you hit you get a free trip attempt, gaining an extra attack via Improved Trip if you succeed. The Lion spiritual totem ACF can be used with the Wolf Totem class variant if necessary.

[Rosarius]

Thanks a lot, Biffoniacus_Furiou ;)


Put one level of Exotic Weapon Master in there

This prC requires Weapon Focus, which is pretty bad :( And a Kaorti Resin weapon needs another feat.


Take Extra Rage twice and you can Whirling Frenzy just as many times/day as you can FB Frenzy.

Seems interesting, but I don't have a lot of space to take these feats.

[Boci]

Seems interesting, but I don't have a lot of space to take these feats.

Be an elf and dark shuffle away their 4 martial weapon profs for something more to your liking. The combo envolves two spell (shun the dark chaos and embrace the D C) from fiendish codex I. You'll need to pay a caster to get it done, but at higher levels it will be pocket change on your WBL.

[Rosarius]

Be an elf and dark shuffle away their 4 martial weapon profs for something more to your liking

Isn'it a race feature rather than 4 feats?

[Boci]

Isn'it a race feature rather than 4 feats?

No, they are racial feats, so its legal.

[Vulaas]

A better racial choice might be Changeling, and then dip Warshaper for Morphic Immunities, and take the Racial Immersion feat to allow you to pretend you're a dwarf, so you'll qualify for Deepwarden. Also, Fist of the Forest is great for that too. It'll start getting a bit harder to qualify thanks to needing a lot more feats, but it's well worth the investment.

Also, yes, Feral is nice, but I'd say it honestly isn't really needed.

[Rosarius]

No, they are racial feats, so its legal.

oO this is OP ! I mean, it makes 7 feats at the first level with 2 flaws oO


A better racial choice might be Changeling, and then dip Warshaper for Morphic Immunities, and take the Racial Immersion feat to allow you to pretend you're a dwarf, so you'll qualify for Deepwarden. Also, Fist of the Forest is great for that too. It'll start getting a bit harder to qualify thanks to needing a lot more feats, but it's well worth the investment.

Great idea. But is it worth it to lose Water Orc's strenght and constitution ?

[Boci]

oO this is OP ! I mean, it makes 7 feats at the first level with 2 flaws oO

Nah, you cannot afford the castings unti later. Besides, your 80 damage shy of averaging 1k, a couple of extra feats are not what is OP.

[Kaeso]

Get a second Barbarian level and use the Wolf Totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) variant. Take Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) and every time you hit you get a free trip attempt, gaining an extra attack via Improved Trip if you succeed. The Lion spiritual totem ACF can be used with the Wolf Totem class variant if necessary.

Isn't knock-down a divine feat ie. only PC's with divine ranks (ie. gods) can take it?

[Boci]

Isn't knock-down a divine feat ie. only PC's with divine ranks (ie. gods) can take it?

Doesn't it have a preq of +2 BAB?

[Kaeso]

Doesn't it have a preq of +2 BAB?

What the... you're right!
What's the sourcebook of that feat? If I'm correct 'deities and demigods' has a feat by the same name that requires a divine rank. I could be mistaken though.

[Keld Denar]

It is in D&D (and the SRD), but it doesn't require a divine rank to take.

[faceroll]

Replace all Fighter levels with Warblade levels. Just do that. NOW.

The feats are better for his purposes (lots of damage). The Sudden Leap swift action move from Tiger Claw would be great for lining up charges, though. With the amount of strength he has, he'll have truly awesome jump checks. Combined with Battle Jump, haha, oh man, it's all Final Fantasy dragoon style.


Get a second Barbarian level and use the Wolf Totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) variant. Take Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) and every time you hit you get a free trip attempt, gaining an extra attack via Improved Trip if you succeed. The Lion spiritual totem ACF can be used with the Wolf Totem class variant if necessary.

Came here to post exactly that. Knockdown on such a build makes you extraordinarily fierce when you can't charge.


I don't have a lot of space to take these feats.

If you can squeeze in two levels of psychic warrior and two levels of feat rogue (both can be found on the SRD), you get another 4 fighter feats at the cost of 1 BAB (assuming using fractional BAB).


Isn't knock-down a divine feat ie. only PC's with divine ranks (ie. gods) can take it?

It's in Complete Warrior.

[The Glyphstone]

It should be pointed out that Knockdown and Improved Trip don't stack - this was called out in the Sword and Fist errata, printed after Deities and Demigods.

[faceroll]

It should be pointed out that Knockdown and Improved Trip don't stack - this was called out in the Sword and Fist errata, printed after Deities and Demigods.

Knockdown was reprinted in 3.5 Complete Warrior and lacked those lines in the 3.0 S&F errata.

[Greenish]

Knockdown was reprinted in 3.5 Complete Warrior and lacked those lines in the 3.0 S&F errata.I can't find it from CW. :smallconfused:

[The Glyphstone]

Knockdown was reprinted in 3.5 Complete Warrior and lacked those lines in the 3.0 S&F errata.

Neither can I.

[faceroll]

Maybe I'm on drugs. I'm away from books.

[Boci]

Knockback was in Races of Stone, but that was about bullrush, trip.

[faceroll]

Maybe I'm thinking of Shield Charge.

[Keld Denar]

Deities and Demigods was actually published AFTER the S&F errata. It doesn't have the errata in it. MY personal opinion is that this was a copy/pasta error from some editor who was probably playing solitare instead of doing his job, and if I was running a game, I would follow the S&F errata because to do otherwise results in an absurd amount of attack rolls in a given round that I don't want to deal with.

Those two sources are the only places that Knockdown was published.

[Curmudgeon]

It should be pointed out that Knockdown and Improved Trip don't stack - this was called out in the Sword and Fist errata, printed after Deities and Demigods.
You're correct about the Errata publish date, but wrong about the final official word on Knock-Down. That's found in the "Deities and Demigods FREE D&D® V.3.5 ACCESSORY UPDATE" booklet, available here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a). This booklet makes the Knock-Down from Deities and Demigods a 3.5 feat. Along the way, it looks like they changed their mind about the 3.0 erratum for the feat, as that's been dropped from the 3.5 revision. So, in D&D 3.5, Knock-Down is an enabler for Improved Trip.

Edit: Deities and Demigods was published 2002 April. The Sword and Fist Errata file was released 2002 October 18. The "FREE D&D® V.3.5 ACCESSORY UPDATE" for Deities and Demigods is marked 2003 July 18.

[The Glyphstone]

Deities and Demigods was actually published AFTER the S&F errata. It doesn't have the errata in it. MY personal opinion is that this was a copy/pasta error from some editor who was probably playing solitare instead of doing his job, and if I was running a game, I would follow the S&F errata because to do otherwise results in an absurd amount of attack rolls in a given round that I don't want to deal with.

Those two sources are the only places that Knockdown was published.

Sword and Fist: Released January 2001.
Deities and Demigods: Released April 2002.
Sword and Fist Errata: Released 10/18/2002.

So S&F was superceded by D&D, but D&D was superceded by the S&F Errata?


You're correct about the Errata publish date, but wrong about the final official word on Knock-Down. That's found in the "Deities and Demigods FREE D&D® V.3.5 ACCESSORY UPDATE" booklet, available here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a). This booklet makes the Knock-Down from Deities and Demigods a 3.5 feat. Along the way, it looks like they changed their mind about the 3.0 erratum for the feat, as that's been dropped from the 3.5 revision. So, in D&D 3.5, Knock-Down is an enabler for Improved Trip.

What gives you that conclusion? The 3.5 update doesn't even mention Knockdown, or any other feat. If it wasn't reprinted or rewritten for the update booklet, then it was considered compatible with 3.5 without needing to be updated, so it remains overwritten by S&F - the update booklets didn't magically convert the entire books' contents into 3.5 material, they only altered stuff that wasn't compatible.

[Hirax]

Knockback is better than knockdown anyway IMO. Knock your foe into another foe (bowling!), rough terrain, off a cliff, into water, etc.

[faceroll]

Knockback is better than knockdown anyway IMO. Knock your foe into another foe (bowling!), rough terrain, off a cliff, into water, etc.

I like using both. If they've made it through my 20' reach, either by 5' stepping or tumbling, once they're close enough to melee, WHACK!, back to 25' away.

[Hirax]

I like using both. If they've made it through my 20' reach, either by 5' stepping or tumbling, once they're close enough to melee, WHACK!, back to 25' away.

Heh, can't believe I forgot to mention the other obvious benefit to knockback. Knock them 20 feet away, then charge and leap attack again. If you didn't kill them in the first shot.

[Curmudgeon]

What gives you that conclusion? The 3.5 update doesn't even mention Knockdown, or any other feat. If it wasn't reprinted or rewritten for the update booklet, then it was considered compatible with 3.5 without needing to be updated
That's correct. The version of the contents in Deities and Demigods not updated by the 3.5 booklet are considered compatible with D&D 3.5.

, so it remains overwritten by S&F
That doesn't follow. Deities and Demigods wasn't overwritten by Sword and Fist, which was published previously. The Sword and Fist Errata file was published later, so between 2002 October 18 and 2003 July 18 (9 months) the official version of Knock-Down was altered.

the update booklets didn't magically convert the entire books' contents into 3.5 material, they only altered stuff that wasn't compatible. No "magical conversion" is required, but the version of Knock-Down in Deities and Demigods was considered 3.5 compatible.

Most of the content of Sword and Fist was redone for 3.5 rules in Complete Warrior; see a list of official replacements here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x). The D&D authors didn't redo Knock-Down in that book, and there is no more recent version of Knock-Down than the one in Deities and Demigods as officially blessed by the 3.5 update for that book.

Any use of material from 3.0 sources always follows the same procedures.
First, check to see if there's an official version of the feat, prestige class, weapon enhancement, & c. in a 3.5 book; the above-linked rules reference on the Wizards web site is a useful guide in this case.
Next, see if there's an official 3.5 conversion of that 3.0 feat, prestige class, weapon enhancement, & c., as there is for Deities and Demigods.
Failing the above, apply the rule from page 4 of the 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide and make "minor adjustments" as necessary:
This is an upgrade of the d20 System, not a new edition of the game. This revision is compatible with all existing products, and those products can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments.
Very little of what was first published in Sword and Fist isn't covered by replacement in step 1 (Complete Warrior replacements) and conversion in step 2 (material that's been changed, or officially blessed as 3.5-compatible). If you get to step 3 it's a matter for individual DM judgment. Thankfully, the Knock-Down feat isn't left in that position.