Could Nale know Girrard?

[RunicLGB]

I posted this theory in the Chapter discussion thread but no one commented on it so I thought I'd repost it and see if anyone ese thought this was plausible.

The theory goes like this:

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0727.html)Tarquin is shown describing Girrard, but his description matches the images of Girrard from when he was younger, mainly in having red hair. Givven that Both Soon and Dorukon had both aged enough since their origional adventures to have grey hair, and no indication is given the Girrard is an elf like Lirian, my guess is that Tarqui met Girrard when they were younger. It is then possible to assume that he may have had dealing with Girrard while caring for his son, Nale.

Now, on this continent, Nale is wanted, and if he went anywhere near his father's holdings he'd know hed be in danger, yet we know he wanted to make a move on one of the gates. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html) Why would he risk imprisonment and horrid dragon death by returning to his home, when there is another gate in the north?

Even more reason to avoid the western continent is on the off chance that the order survived the battle for azure city, he knew they were heading there next (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html). And as much as revenge is his style hes already expressed a desire to not be wherever Xykon and the order are fighting eachother over those gates.

All logic would point to Nale running North to seek out Kragoor's gate. BUT HE DOESN'T. He instead risks meeting his father, the order, and Xykon, by going where he knows they're all going!

A simple way of making sense of this? Nale knows Girrard from his father's contact with the man! I wouldn't say he knows where exactly the gate would be, since he didn't know about till after roy told him, but if he knows Girrard thats a hell of a big lead on finding the thing!

Thoughts?

[martianmister]

I think likelihood is 50/50.

[Leecros]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0727.html)Tarquin is shown describing Girrard, but his description matches the images of Girrard from when he was younger, mainly in having red hair. Givven that Both Soon and Dorukon had both aged enough since their origional adventures to have grey hair, and no indication is given the Girrard is an elf like Lirian, my guess is that Tarqui met Girrard when they were younger.
Thoughts?

Or....Girard didn't like the idea of looking like he's aged and either found a way to extend his longevity so he would keep his precious red hair or illusion-ed himself to look younger.

Although i know at least one notable person (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Norris) who's 71 years old and still has his red hair. So it's possible that his hair just didn't go white.

[Strife Warzeal]

Although i know at least one notable person (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Norris) who's 71 years old and still has his red hair. So it's possible that his hair just didn't go white.

But he doesn't age as we understand it, so your argument is invalid. :smalltongue:

[RunicLGB]

That example and his insane epicness aside, the bit about Girrards hair was one of the less important pieces of speculation. Everything else is still valid, giving Nale a nice probabilty of knowing something of Girrard.

[RunicLGB]

{Scrubbed}

Seriously no more comments on this possibility? Should I just take the lack of posts as stunned silence at the sheer brilliance?

[Swordpriest]

What is there to say? :smallconfused: Either Nale knows Girard from previous dealings with him, or he doesn't. There's no way for us to tell at this point because we have literally zero information.

Your theory is as possible as anything else at the moment, but there's literally no basis for discussing whether it might be any more right or wrong than any other possibility, either. Sorry.

[Knaight]

Now, on this continent, Nale is wanted, and if he went anywhere near his father's holdings he'd know hed be in danger, yet we know he wanted to make a move on one of the gates. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html) Why would he risk imprisonment and horrid dragon death by returning to his home, when there is another gate in the north?

Even more reason to avoid the western continent is on the off chance that the order survived the battle for azure city, he knew they were heading there next (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html). And as much as revenge is his style hes already expressed a desire to not be wherever Xykon and the order are fighting eachother over those gates.

If anything these are reasons for Nale to go towards Girard's Gate. He abhors the thought of anyone who "denies" him not paying for it, has developed a personal interest in hunting down the Order of the Stick, and almost certainly wants to destroy his father. Heading towards Girard's gate lets him try all of these. He's over matched, and significantly so, but Nale has difficulty knowing when he is outplayed, let alone acknowledging that other people are simply out of his league.

[Mr. Snuggles]

Does anyone besides Xykon and Serini even know where Kraagor's Gate is? It's in the north, to be sure, but that's a rather large area. Just because Nale heard the secret lore of the Sapphire Guard doesn't mean he knows its exact location. On the other hand, if Nale knows that Tarquin, his father, knows Girard somehow, then it's not a far reach to assume that Nale knows him too. Despite the risks, Nale would choose to pursue Girard's gate. Undoubtedly he has an overly elaborate and complicated plan that he's sure will work.

When Nale reappears, look for him to have a high-level wizard and a high-level cleric, so as to be able to control the gate. He doesn't have the ritual but I doubt that has deterred him.

[RunicLGB]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that nale would have recruited any casters. He's made a reference that he didn't like all the dead weight on the team (possibly the reason Thog in the arena, dropping dead weight) and he doesn't know about the rituals. No one but redcloak, Xykon, and now Tsukiko know anything about any rituals. All the saphire gurad lore tells is that there are gates, and there are bad guys that want them for some reason.

As far as where Kragoors gate is, the saphire guard had quardanants for Girrard's gate, made useless only because Girrard hated Soon and lied to him. Since later Hinjo sends lien and Ochul to go reconaissance on Kragoors gate, it stands to reason that they had those quardanants as well.

[Swordpriest]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that nale would have recruited any casters. He's made a reference that he didn't like all the dead weight on the team

I would have to say though, that even a passing knowledge of D&D causes me to smile when I hear casters described as "dead weight on the team". :smallamused::smallamused:

[RunicLGB]

I would have to say though, that even a passing knowledge of D&D causes me to smile when I hear casters described as "dead weight on the team". :smallamused::smallamused:

It is Nale we're talking about. :smalltongue:

[Gift Jeraff]

Pompey was dead weight because he was low-level, not because he was a caster.

Nale might be powerful enough of a sorcerer to do the arcane half of the ritual (I believe Redcloak wasn't that high level when they attacked Lirian's Gate, but I'm not sure), but, as said above, how would he even know about the ritual? Could the IFCC have figured it out somehow and passed the knowledge onto Sabine?

[Sarco_Phage]

Nale might be powerful enough of a sorcerer to do the arcane half of the ritual (I believe Redcloak wasn't that high level when they attacked Lirian's Gate, but I'm not sure), but, as said above, how would he even know about the ritual? Could the IFCC have figured it out somehow and passed the knowledge onto Sabine?

Doubtful. Nale's a triple multiclass, and we haven't seen him using higher level Sorcerer spells meaning that his other levels were taken in either Rogue or Fighter.

And Redcloak now is anywhere from 13th to 17th level (we haven't seen him casting 9th level spells yet, so we don't know), so that's no real gauge. At Lirian's gate, I can't recall exactly. I'll have to check to see the biggest spell he used, but it should allow us to ascertain what level he is.

[King of Nowhere]

I think the theory is good, and there is a decent chance Nale knows girard anyway.
the only weak spot I see is, why should girard helkp nale? He disliked good autorities, i don't want to know how he could feel towards Nale or tarquin.
And I don't think the empire stuff tarquin is doing is a threath to the gate. Or that nale has anything that girard may want to bribe him.

[RunicLGB]

I don't think Nale is powerful enough to the ritual, and I definitely don't think the IFCC would tell them how to do it. When you're an evil overlord, never tell the pawns how to use the big guns.

That doesn't mean the IFCC doesn't want nale at the gates though. Its good to have pawns in strong positions.


And Redcloak is at least level 15 (his blade barrier would do 15d6 damage) but possibly higher. For more info on that check out the level geekery thread. I'm gonna go check it right now to double check Nale's estimated level.

[Forum Explorer]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that nale would have recruited any casters. He's made a reference that he didn't like all the dead weight on the team (possibly the reason Thog in the arena, dropping dead weight) and he doesn't know about the rituals. No one but redcloak, Xykon, and now Tsukiko know anything about any rituals. All the saphire gurad lore tells is that there are gates, and there are bad guys that want them for some reason.

As far as where Kragoors gate is, the saphire guard had quardanants for Girrard's gate, made useless only because Girrard hated Soon and lied to him. Since later Hinjo sends lien and Ochul to go reconaissance on Kragoors gate, it stands to reason that they had those quardanants as well.

Wasn't a big issue with Roy being dead was that he was the only one in the Order who knew where the gate was?

[Sarco_Phage]

And Redcloak is at least level 15 (his blade barrier would do 15d6 damage) but possibly higher. For more info on that check out the level geekery thread. I'm gonna go check it right now to double check Nale's estimated level.

Huh, yeah I'd forgotten that one. Plus Blade Barrier caps at 15d6, so there's no way to tell if he's only 15th level.

[RunicLGB]

Wasn't a big issue with Roy being dead was that he was the only one in the Order who knew where the gate was?

oh SNAP!

I'd forgotten that. So it's likely he was the only one of the order given those quads, and Shojo wouldn't have shared them with Nale as Elan. Weak...


Sarco: I know, hence "At Least". You were saying level 13 though and thats a tad low.

Edit: Checked level geekery and they place Nale's Minimum Sorc level as 6. Not quite high level, but we don't know what the requirements for that ritual are. He was able to cast Sending from scroll (a 5th level spell, not one he could cast as a 6th level sorc) so if he somehow had a copy, and it was a spell completioin item he might be capable of it. I just find it unlikely he knows of the ritual.

[Gift Jeraff]

Nale was at least a 6th level sorcerer last time we saw him. Redcloak reached 13th level over 26 years after the destruction of Lirian's Gate, as per dialogue in SoD. (EDIT: Redcloak was level 9-10 during their invasion, as evidenced by Flame Strike but lack of Heal.)

[Holy_Knight]

As far as where Kragoors gate is, the saphire guard had quardanants for Girrard's gate, made useless only because Girrard hated Soon and lied to him. Since later Hinjo sends lien and Ochul to go reconaissance on Kragoors gate, it stands to reason that they had those quardanants as well.

I think you mean "coordinates".

On topic, it does seem odd that Nale would apparently be in a place where he knows several high-powered enemies will be AND he's wanted by an entire empire. We know Sabine can obviously disguise herself, and Nale as a sorceror ought to be able to disguise himself fairly easily too. So, while Thog probably wouldn't count as "dead weight", they may have purposely left him behind temporarily for fear that he would give them away while they're running reconnaisance. They may have even intentionally gotten him arrested, on the assumption that he's powerful enough to survive in the arena (and have fun doing so, knowing Thog) and that they can bust him out of jail once they need to regroup.

[RunicLGB]

[QUOTE=Holy_Knight;10830862]I think you mean "coordinates".

[QUOTE]

God I feel so lame Right now. :smallbiggrin:

But yeah everything else you said sounds good.

[AllVoice]

Short answer to the titular question: Yes.
Long answer: Considering that we have no way of knowing one way or another until Richard Burlew reveals such a fact, anything is possible.

[Poppy Appletree]

In this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0046.html) (which comes from before the plot was finalised, so may not be useful), Nale seems to suggest that Tarquin had mentioned the Talisman of Dorukan to him; this could imply that Tarquin has had a long-standing interest in the gates, given that he appears to know of both Dorukan and Girrard. If Tarquin had mentioned Dorukan's Talisman to Nale, he may have also told him about Girrard.

However, this doesn't make sense when we consider that Nale only found out about the gates much, much later; this can be reconciled either by assuming that Tarquin did not tell Nale about the gates (in which case, Nale may not know of Girrard), that Tarquin did not know of the gates at the time, or that this detail is not part of the overall plot due to being presented in the first arc.

(All of this is, of course, an assumption, as Nale's thought is cut off when he is describing the conversation with Tarquin.)

[Dire Moose]

I don't think Nale is powerful enough to the ritual, and I definitely don't think the IFCC would tell them how to do it. When you're an evil overlord, never tell the pawns how to use the big guns.

That doesn't mean the IFCC doesn't want nale at the gates though. Its good to have pawns in strong positions.

I don't think they're planning to use Nale to complete the ritual, as evidenced by their interest in Vaarsuvius and the need to possess hir soul for several minutes. As they're also in on the gates, I'm pretty sure they plan to get V to perform the arcane half of the ritual.

This also would imply that Nale is not capable of performing the ritual himself, as the IFCC would not have needed to go to such great lengths to find someone better.

[Morgan Wick]

I'd forgotten that. So it's likely he was the only one of the order given those quads, and Shojo wouldn't have shared them with Nale as Elan. Weak...

Well, except that Belkar was, IIRC, the only other one in the room when Nale-as-Elan asked to hear the story again, and he wasn't with Durkon/V/Elan, the group with the biggest concern that they couldn't go to Girard's Gate without Roy.

That said, it's more likely that Shojo gave out the coordinates in the gap between 295 and 296 when Roy accepted his offer, meaning if anyone else knew them it would be Haley.

[Ancalagon]

In this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0046.html)

This changes everything.

It is proof Tarquin knew about the Dungeon of Dorukan - and I see not many ways he could have learned about it. Did he know about the gates? That is unclear but there *must* be a connection between Tarquin and at least one member of the Order of the Scribble.

[RunicLGB]

In this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0046.html)

That is a beautiful find. And I thank you for it.

I agree with what Ancalagon says after that as well, cetainly starts to seem more likely now.

[Morgan Wick]

There's a lot that's unclear about that strip.

Nale makes clear that he intends to use the OOTS to secure the Talisman for himself, but - especially given what happens later - we don't know if Tarquin told him about the Dungeon, the Talisman, an oblique reference to his brother, or just that Nale was destined for greatness.

One interpretation: Tarquin told Nale to build a mighty empire, and Nale responded by, eventually, trying to overthrow Tarquin. He learned about the Talisman through other means and saw its power as his ticket to an empire.

If you're referring to the "wise and benevolent king" line, remember that that's Nale's cover, which Sabine isn't in on.

[ThePhantasm]

This changes everything.

It is proof Tarquin knew about the Dungeon of Dorukan - and I see not many ways he could have learned about it. Did he know about the gates? That is unclear but there *must* be a connection between Tarquin and at least one member of the Order of the Scribble.

As I continue to say, it seems Tarquin knows a lot more than he is letting on.

Nale can't stand to appear dumb. Elan seems dumb all the time because he is. Tarquin, however, plays dumb and then reveals his master plan.

[Adonis1x23]

Girrard is Tarquin's father, so yes he would. Or possibly didn't but then there was a dramatic reveal and he then found out who he was.