no love for the monk

[hivedragon]

I do realize the monk is not the powerhouse other classes are but it does a make a good mage slayer; all good saves, high land speed, and spell resistance. A common complaint is that there isn't much synergy between their two main class features FoBs and speed bonus, which can easily be solved by giving them pounce at 8th level.

[Veyr]

Oh god another.


I do realize the monk is not the powerhouse other classes are but it does a make a good mage slayer; all good saves, high land speed, and spell resistance.
No they don't; a mage can very easily just use Saving Throw: None, SR: No spells that will destroy him.

Or just ignore him since he poses absolutely zero threat to the mage to begin with.


A common complaint is that there isn't much synergy between their two main class features FoBs and speed bonus, which can easily be solved by giving them pounce at 8th level.
How?

[true_shinken]

How?
That way they can charge and peform full-attacks, taking advantage of both their increased speed and increased number of attacks.
If they got acrobatic charge as well, it might actually work as intended, I believe. I may end up adding this to monks in my games...

[Forged Fury]

I think the question is how a Monk gets Pounce at 8th level.

[true_shinken]

I think the question is how a Monk gets Pounce at 8th level.
He is obviously suggesting a houserule.

[Veyr]

Oh, I didn't get that at all.

But it still doesn't do even remotely enough for the Monk.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Well, as long as we're allowing some homebrewing, I agree that monk isn't bad. You just have to take away most of their useless class features, add full initiator progression, a couple random bonuses, and sole access to Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, and Desert Wind maneuvers and stances. Bam, functional monk.

[holywhippet]

I do realize the monk is not the powerhouse other classes are but it does a make a good mage slayer; all good saves, high land speed, and spell resistance. A common complaint is that there isn't much synergy between their two main class features FoBs and speed bonus, which can easily be solved by giving them pounce at 8th level.

Problem is, spellcaster (especially wizards) tend to get spells like overland flight and improved invisibilty. A monk can do nothing when their opponent is out of reach and can't even be seen.

The monk class, when you take a careful look at it, is designed to be able to survive a wide range of things - immunities to poison and disease, slow falling, full saving throw progression, evasion, high touch AC, deflect arrow etc. Problem is, most of the things a monk is designed to survive are either rare or easily dealt with using a spell.

The most common thing you will see in a D&D game is an an attack roll vs. AC. But that is the area the monk is weak at. They get AC increases every few levels, but that is just to match up with the other PCs getting +1 armour, +2 armour etc. Low AC and sub par HP = a character that is going to get hit if you try to go toe to toe with enemies. One counter is to use spring attack to get in, do damage, then get out of range - but as soon as you start doing things like that your enemies will start readying attacks.

[Killer Angel]

A common complaint is that there isn't much synergy between their two main class features FoBs and speed bonus, which can easily be solved by giving them pounce at 8th level.

Are you seriously debating that monks aren't bad, because you can homebrew them? :smallamused:

[true_shinken]

Are you seriously debating that monks aren't bad, because you can homebrew them? :smallamused:
Actually, he is just saying he found a simple way to get some synergy between the two abilities. He acknowledges monks are not good.

[Forged Fury]

Oh, I didn't get that at all.
Glad I wasn't the only one who didn't automatically assume homebrew. :smallamused:

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Actually, he is just saying he found a simple way to get some synergy between the two abilities. He acknowledges monks are not good.Well, apparently they're "good mage slayers" due to their high defenses and smattering of immunities. The problem, of course, is their offense. I do agree that they're potentially a good decoy against casters unaware of the party's strengths and weaknesses. A paranoid wizard BBEG, or a communing cleric, will just ignore the monk, but a cocky sorcerer might waste a few SoLs on the unarmed wonder until he realizes he probably should have been focusing on the casters.

[The Cat Goddess]

To fix Flurry of Blows...

Make Flurry of Blows work exactly like the Snap Kick Feat works now. Make it stack with Snap Kick. Have it give additional attacks as it currently does. Make it stack with Two-Weapon Combat.

To fix Unarmed Swordsage...

Give Unarmed Swordsage Flurry of Blows (so they can qualify for Monk PrCs, if they want). Make it clear that the Swordsage Wis-to-AC works in light or no armor.

Other good "fixes"...

Create an "armor type" called "Robes" Treat it as functionally AC +0, armor type = none. Allow it to be "masterwork"-able, thus enchantable.

Add the effect on the Scorpion Kama (does damage equal to unarmed strike damage) to the "Ki Strike" weapon enchantment.

[hivedragon]

Problem is, spellcaster (especially wizards) tend to get spells like overland flight and improved invisibilty. A monk can do nothing when their opponent is out of reach and can't even be seen.

To fix the whole invisible/ethereal thing monks should get persistent true seeing instead of that useless tongue of the sun and moon.

I would also suggest speeding up slow fall progression and eventually gaining flight. Really if we were to stat Goku it would probably be as a monk and he learned flight pretty early in his career.

Basically I'm looking for advice on making the monk more playable without resorting to the sword sage.

[Firechanter]

Okay, I know there is a tradition of "Monkday" in these forums, but how many Monk threads do we really need active at any given time?

[holywhippet]

A lot of improvements to the monk class lie in the sacred fist PrC. Opponent is invisible? No problem, they get blindsense. Opponent is airbourne? Either have the travel domain and cast flight or just drop a dispel on them.

Admittedly a lot of the improvements are because the sacred fist can cast divine spells - but they have a number of inherent improvements like full BAB progression.

[The Cat Goddess]

A lot of improvements to the monk class lie in the sacred fist PrC. Opponent is invisible? No problem, they get blindsense. Opponent is airbourne? Either have the travel domain and cast flight or just drop a dispel on them.

Admittedly a lot of the improvements are because the sacred fist can cast divine spells - but they have a number of inherent improvements like full BAB progression.

Yeah... fun how two classes with medium BAB can join to form a PrC with good BAB. :smallconfused:

[mabriss lethe]

Make monk more playable? a possibility is to Gestalt it with Adept. 5th level divine casting from a decent list covers a lot of their problems.

[Boci]

Yeah... fun how two classes with medium BAB can join to form a PrC with good BAB. :smallconfused:

Divine power?

[The Glyphstone]

That basically involves stripping the monk down to nothing and starting over, though, at which point it's easier to use swordsage. It's definitely more fun to write a monk from scratch, though, so if that's the route preferred, more power to you.

[Boci]

When remaking the monk, the main question is, why aren't you using the swordsage? Do you just want to avoid the maneuvre mechanic, or is their something the swordsage lacks that you want the monk class to have?

[The Cat Goddess]

When remaking the monk, the main question is, why aren't you using the swordsage? Do you just want to avoid the maneuvre mechanic, or is their something the swordsage lacks that you want the monk class to have?

Usually it's the "I don't like the Tome of Battle" thing.

[hivedragon]

@ the cat goddess
what is the source of snapkick?


Okay, I know there is a tradition of "Monkday" in these forums, but how many Monk threads do we really need active at any given time?

There were no active monk threads on the front page when I made this one.

Does anyone have "Sword and Fist: A Guidebook to Monks and Fighters," is it worth it to buy it?

[Boci]

@ the cat goddess
what is the source of snapkick?

ToB. You do not need to know any maneuvres to take the feat though.

[mabriss lethe]

Sword and Fist is 3.0 and therefore technically not up to date. Most of the material got updated to 3.5 in various Completes (If I remember correctly, I could be wrong.)

[Cog]

Snap Kick is from Tome of Battle.

The biggest problem with Sword and Fist is that it's 3.0, so while it's technically usable, many groups won't.

[Eldariel]

To fix the whole invisible/ethereal thing monks should get persistent true seeing instead of that useless tongue of the sun and moon.

I would also suggest speeding up slow fall progression and eventually gaining flight. Really if we were to stat Goku it would probably be as a monk and he learned flight pretty early in his career.

Basically I'm looking for advice on making the monk more playable without resorting to the sword sage.

Honestly, what's a Monk as per D&D? Mystical, unarmed warrior. How to make Monk good: Make a mystical, unarmed warrior. There are already classes for that. Mystical powers should either be spells or powers; the written method of the class, getting few 1/day abilities, doesn't really work.


For Monk to be good, you just take Unarmed Strikes and maybe Flurry + AC Bonus from Monk and then give him casting progression. Luckily there are already written ways to get there without actually rewriting anything. Most useful option is probably Tashalatora [Secrets of Sarlona]. It basically stacks Monk-abilities on one Psionic class.

Given that as per fluff, Monk is all Mind-over-Body kinda stuff, it actually is a Psionic class. Just one that doesn't get powers. This fixes that, and turns the few random-ass abilities into actual powers you can use N times per day depending on your Power Point allotment. You go Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 18 or Monk 2/Ardent 18 with Tashalatora and are effectively level 20 Monk that has all the cool abilities of a psionic type that work, instead of getting them randomly 1/day.


Other option is stacking Monk with arcane/divine spellcasting; Monk/Cleric/Sacred Fist [Complete Divine] or Monk/Wizard/Enlightened Fist [Complete Arcane] with a side doze of Carmendine Monk-feat to draw Monk-abilities off Intelligence works. These are perhaps less elegant, but in a world without Psionics, Arcane Magic is mostly the same and Divine Magic makes sorta sense on Monks in a world where deities are tangible and exist, so they do work.

If you want to remake the Monk-class to be better, well, a good way would be to just remake it to be like one of these multiclass options. The problem with Monk-class is that it's a caster/warrior that doesn't really get the casting part (and isn't all that good in the fighting-part either as a consequence). Unarmed Swordsage would be exactly what you'd get out of a properly reworked Monk, too; the various martial disciplines offer you different types of combat techniques with the mystical and the physical in a harmonic mix, and the class design allows you to base it off either Str, Dex or Wisdom equally well, making for different styles of Monks.

Basically, when the Monk-class itself really doesn't do what it set out to do, it's probably not worth it to rewrite it entirely when approximation of what it should look like already exists multiple times. Then again, in my silly youth even I wanted to remake the Monk-class and indeed, Monk Redux (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85892) was born. It's not bad. It's not as Monk-like as the more elegant options like psionics, arcane magic or ToB though. Basically, it's still the schizophrenic caster-with-only-very-few-abilities-but-at-least-multiple-times-per-day/warrior-thingy.


P.s. This is probably more at home in Homebrew if that's what you wanna do; homebrewing.


Does anyone have "Sword and Fist: A Guidebook to Monks and Fighters," is it worth it to buy it?

It's got some good stuff but not much of it for Monks; it's mostly a decent book for Fighters (too bad it's not 3.5; I still use it tho) with some non-awful PrCs (3.5 really failed in this regard; but it brought us ToB so I forgive them).

[true_shinken]

Snap Kick is from Tome of Battle.

The biggest problem with Sword and Fist is that it's 3.0, so while it's technically usable, many groups won't.

Many groups won't use ToB as well.

[MeeposFire]

Sword and Fist is 3.0 and therefore technically not up to date. Most of the material got updated to 3.5 in various Completes (If I remember correctly, I could be wrong.)

Most of it was updated but there are a few things that was not updated though they are mostly of dubious quality for a PC (for instance a ghostwalker would be awesome for a NPC but it of little worth for most PCs).

Unless you get it for super cheap it would not be worth it and even then it will only have a few things you could not get from other books and even then they are not worth much. I would not recommend it. It was also very early 3.0 which has many of the oldest problems of 3e being very strong (a feat that takes a fullround action and lets you hit two targets? Really this is a feat? Or how about the equivalent in attacks from greater flurry but causes your monk to take a -5 to attack rolls ouch).

[The Cat Goddess]

Snap Kick (basically) gives you an extra unarmed attack whenever you make an attack. So, if you make a Full Attack, you get one extra attack at the end from Snap Kick. If you make an Attack of Opportunity, you get an extra attack from Snap Kick. If you trip someone and get the free attack from Improved Trip, you get an extra attack from Snap Kick.

However, if you choose to use Snap Kick, all attacks for that round are at -2.

Thus, with my proposed fix, Maximum Flurry (3 extra attacks at no penalty) and Snap Kick, a Monk would get 5 attacks on an Attack of Opportunity at full bonus-2. That's actually kinda nice.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Oh, right... Monday.

Pounce would be an option, but really the only viable ways to make Monk anything but an enormous trap are:

1) Tashalatora. Basically, it's a gestalt in a non-gestalt setting. Adding PsiWay powers makes it a viable build because it covers bases nicely. Psionic Lion's Pounce, for example. Expansion, Claws of the Vampire, and Hustle also do well to augment a monk to the point of competency.

2) Swordsage. Because its everything Monk wanted to be, but completely failed at.

[Boci]

Many groups won't use ToB as well.

True, but its 3.5. With S&F, you can have people who do not like the mechanics (although they are less likely to cause a fuss than ToB) and people who do not like 3.0 material full stop.

[true_shinken]

True, but its 3.5. With S&F, you can have people who do not like the mechanics (although they are less likely to cause a fuss than ToB) and people who do not like 3.0 material full stop.

Sounds like the same to me anyway.
ToB also has very common problems about people disliking it's fluff, something I never heard about anything in Sword & Fist (Ghostwalker is awesome).

[holywhippet]

Yeah... fun how two classes with medium BAB can join to form a PrC with good BAB. :smallconfused:

Yeah, I still haven't quite gotten that worked out in my head. Technically though it works with any divine casting class so you could use paladin or ranger to qualify.

More confusing is that their will save progression is the one that isn't at full - even though it does advance caster levels 3/4 of the time.

[Tyndmyr]

I do realize the monk is not the powerhouse other classes are but it does a make a good mage slayer; all good saves, high land speed, and spell resistance. A common complaint is that there isn't much synergy between their two main class features FoBs and speed bonus, which can easily be solved by giving them pounce at 8th level.

That time of the weak already?

Why do those things translate to mage slaying ability? Plenty of mage attacks do not target a save at all. Hell, I'd guess that nearly half the attack spells in the phb don't target a save.

High land speed is a joke. This is because casters can easily fly.

Spell resistance is also a joke. First, plenty of spells just ignore it. So...if you happen to be targetted by one of those, it matters not at all. Second, it's only 10 + monk level. Note that does not include LA or PrC levels. So, you gotta stay pure monk for it to remain relevant at all. Also note that you don't get it until 13th level. So....most of your career, it is not relevant at all. Lastly, note that it can be overcome 50% of the time out of the box. Any CL boosts on the part of the caster....and even blasters will pick some of this up....or any feats that happen to boost SR overcoming will make this more failure prone. So, your odds of SR actually ever mattering are...slim.

If your "mage killer" has no way to deal with a forcecage, he's pretty bad at his job.

[MeeposFire]

To fix Flurry of Blows...

Make Flurry of Blows work exactly like the Snap Kick Feat works now. Make it stack with Snap Kick. Have it give additional attacks as it currently does. Make it stack with Two-Weapon Combat.

To fix Unarmed Swordsage...

Give Unarmed Swordsage Flurry of Blows (so they can qualify for Monk PrCs, if they want). Make it clear that the Swordsage Wis-to-AC works in light or no armor.

Other good "fixes"...

Create an "armor type" called "Robes" Treat it as functionally AC +0, armor type = none. Allow it to be "masterwork"-able, thus enchantable.

Add the effect on the Scorpion Kama (does damage equal to unarmed strike damage) to the "Ki Strike" weapon enchantment.

I would like to point out that magic robes can have AC bonuses and they cost the same as enchanting armor. I believe the Magic item compendium has the rules.

[hivedragon]

If your "mage killer" has no way to deal with a forcecage, he's pretty bad at his job.

ummmm empty body

[Tvtyrant]

ummmm empty body

They recast forcecage. Now what:smallamused:

[Tyndmyr]

ummmm empty body

Ummm...Teleportation and other forms of astral travel provide a means of escape, but the force walls or bars extend into the Ethereal Plane, blocking ethereal travel.


Empty Body (Su)
At 19th level, a monk gains the ability to assume an ethereal state for 1 round per monk level per day, as though using the spell etherealness. She may go ethereal on a number of different occasions during any single day, as long as the total number of rounds spent in an ethereal state does not exceed her monk level.

Ummm, no.

[Cog]

In that case, you just cost the caster another 1500 GP.

Considering you're a Monk, that might be enough to count as a win.

(Of course, you'd use Abundant Step in case of a Forcecage, not Empty Body.)

[Tyndmyr]

Yeah, Abundant Step is 1/day. So, you basically just prolonged the battle for a round before you lose. Meh.

You have a lack of ways to stop the caster from just teleporting away, too. It's tough to be good at taking down casters when you lack ways of stopping escape(assuming that, for whatever reason, they couldn't just kill you horribly)

A big flaw in a lot of monk abilities is the harsh limitations on use. Consider quivering palm, for instance. Sure, the DC tends to suck by the level you get it...but even if that wasn't the case, or you wanted to optimize for it....you get one/week. That's pretty terrible.

[Eldariel]

Seriously, Monk vs. Wizard on level 20? Monk wins initiative even tho Wizard gets +25 from Moment of Prescience; Monk activates his billion gadgets as a free action and charges with pounce on the flying Wizard. Wizard's contingent teleport activates and he's now about 400' behind. Wizard acts; he Dispels the flight-providing item.

Monk falls, has no ranged weapons and can't reach the Wizard. This fight probably reaches its conclusion with the Wizard Shapechanging into Beholder/Dragon/whatever and pewpewing the Monk from out of range with infinite AC until it dies. Or True Strike > Orb of death for few hundred points. Or hell, the oldie, but stupid Dispel Protection Ring > Acid Fog + Forcecage + Dimension Lock under Time Stop. But that's a huge waste of resources; Shapechange alone can kill the Monk even in melee but why risk him rolling only 20s and you only 1s when dice don't matter?


It's actually possible for a Wizard to safely kill a Monk if we assume every die roll the Wizard makes is 1 and every die roll the Monk makes is 20 on high levels. That's how stupid calling the class a "mage killer" is. Spell Resistance is more a hindrance than a boon (can't reliably receive allied buffs/heals/whatever without wasting a standard action to lower it; opposing casters probably go through the trouble of overcoming SR anyways if they use SR-offering spells), high saves + evasion + touch AC help to stay alive but are only a spell away for the caster to overcome, and Monk's offense? No way, whatsoever, to damage a caster who does not wish to be damaged. No way to pierce magical protections; no way to dispel buffs; no way to deal damage types that hurt somebody with Regeneration, etc.

[Popertop]

To fix the whole invisible/ethereal thing monks should get persistent true seeing instead of that useless tongue of the sun and moon.

I would also suggest speeding up slow fall progression and eventually gaining flight. Really if we were to stat Goku it would probably be as a monk and he learned flight pretty early in his career.

Basically I'm looking for advice on making the monk more playable without resorting to the sword sage.

I'm not gonna lie, Ex: Flight would be pretty sweet.

[GoatBoy]

Q. Monk suck!
A. Don't play monk

Q. But want play monk!
A. Play swordsage

Q. But no allow Tome of Battle!
A. Play monk

Q. Monk suck!
A. Play Enlightened/Sacred Fist

Q. No like magic!
A. No play D&D

Q. I know how fix monk!
A. Get in line

[Tvtyrant]

If your a Malconvoker you can GPB level 20 monks if you wish; that's right, a Wizard has the ability to summon monks to fight your monk.

[GoatBoy]

If your a Malconvoker you can GPB level 20 monks if you wish; that's right, a Wizard has the ability to summon monks to fight your monk.

You can also summon an incorporeal outside who has levels in monk, then have it possess the monk you summoned. So it's a double-monk.

Yo dawg.

[Killer Angel]

that's right, a Wizard has the ability to summon monks to fight your monk.

Alternatively, the Wizard can summon a killer armed with a spoon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VDvgL58h_Y).

[Coidzor]

Create an "armor type" called "Robes" Treat it as functionally AC +0, armor type = none. Allow it to be "masterwork"-able, thus enchantable.

Or just let bracers of armor be enchantable with armor properties and vouch for the clothing/robe slot to be occupied by clothing of armor +X. Or just use MiC stacking rules to have the bracers of armor be combined with whatever else one wants to wear on one's fore-limbs.

[Greenish]

Or just let bracers of armor be enchantable with armor properties and vouch for the clothing/robe slot to be occupied by clothing of armor +X. Or just use MiC stacking rules to have the bracers of armor be combined with whatever else one wants to wear on one's fore-limbs.Or be a warforged. Bonus points: Battlefist.

[Coidzor]

Or be a warforged. Bonus points: Battlefist.

Don't they have to spend a feat in order to use their monk abilities that also explicitly takes away the ability for their body to be enchanted like armor or imbued with an armor bonus like bracers of armor? :smallconfused:

[Greenish]

Don't they have to spend a feat in order to use their monk abilitiesNope, their default plating doesn't count.

[Coidzor]

Nope, their default plating doesn't count.

Ahh, funny I should run into so many people who think warforged monks need nerfing then. :smalleek:

[Greenish]

Ahh, funny I should run into so many people who think warforged monks need nerfing then. :smalleek:It's an easy mistake, I used to think so too. The key is that the plating is not armour per se.

[Kaeso]

I think the monk get's no love because even their only gimmick, unarmed combat, is done better by classes that aren't monks :smallsigh:
These classes include, but aren't limited to:
-Unarmed swordsage
-Polymorphed/shapechanged/wildshaped wizard/cleric/druid/ranger
-Monk1/Rogue19 with the Ascetic Rogue feat
-The Punchbarian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195352)

The problem with monks isn't that they're not good, it's that everybody does it better.

[Tyndmyr]

There's also Morris the Mock Monk, which is a fighter that punches things. He's like a monk, only if he picks up a weapon, he gets better, instead of suckier.

[Greenish]

The problem with monks isn't that they're not good, it's that everybody does it better.Well, tashatalora is undeniably a monk, even if a given build would have no levels in the class.

Fun fact: Tashatalora is the name of the monastery in North-Eastern Adar where the style originates.

[Doc Roc]

Well, as long as we're allowing some homebrewing, I agree that monk isn't bad. You just have to take away most of their useless class features, add full initiator progression, a couple random bonuses, and sole access to Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, and Desert Wind maneuvers and stances. Bam, functional monk.

I see what you did there, swordsaging me with a swordsage. I am most impressed. Big ups.

So, just as a warning posted for others: The Legend Monk took about 7 revisions, 200+ hours, eight editors, and sixteen or so hours of SGT on top of being run through the Test of Spite. This tunnel is with the long and the dark, and will not bring to you bigness or strongness. Monklife: fullmonk consequences.

[Popertop]

Alternatively, the Wizard can summon a killer armed with a spoon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VDvgL58h_Y).

you are pretty much my favorite person for referencing that.

[Kaeso]

Well, tashatalora is undeniably a monk, even if a given build would have no levels in the class.

Fun fact: Tashatalora is the name of the monastery in North-Eastern Adar where the style originates.

:smallamused: Now you're just playing semantics. You can also be a samurai without having levels in the samurai class. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html)



There's also Morris the Mock Monk, which is a fighter that punches things. He's like a monk, only if he picks up a weapon, he gets better, instead of suckier.

Can I get a link to that please?

[Tyndmyr]

Morris, post #27 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167598&highlight=Morris+Mock+Monk)


Honestly, you could probably improve on Morris in a number of ways...a dip into lion totem barb for pounce comes to mind....but I suspect this was more a "principle of the thing" build.

[Eldariel]

Morris, post #27 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167598&highlight=Morris+Mock+Monk)


Honestly, you could probably improve on Morris in a number of ways...a dip into lion totem barb for pounce comes to mind....but I suspect this was more a "principle of the thing" build.

Morris was all-Core to compare with all-Core Monk (neither using monstrous feats).

[Kaeso]

Morris, post #27 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167598&highlight=Morris+Mock+Monk)


Honestly, you could probably improve on Morris in a number of ways...a dip into lion totem barb for pounce comes to mind....but I suspect this was more a "principle of the thing" build.
Oh wow! If a single classed fighter can out-do you in your own specific niche, you know you have no reason to exist.

[hivedragon]

I think the monk get's no love because even their only gimmick, unarmed combat, is done better by classes that aren't monks :smallsigh:
These classes include, but aren't limited to:
-Unarmed swordsage
-Polymorphed/shapechanged/wildshaped wizard/cleric/druid/ranger
-Monk1/Rogue19 with the Ascetic Rogue feat
-The Punchbarian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195352)

The problem with monks isn't that they're not good, it's that everybody does it better.

On my first post I didn't say the monk was the best at unarmed combat, I said they were the best at surviving attacks. I believe they are the only base case with all good saves, spell resistance, several immunities. They also can close in on an enemy with high speed, teleporting and etherealness.

[Greenish]

I believe they are the only base case with all good saves, spell resistance, several immunities.There's Favoured Soul, though I forget whether they've got SR.

[IthroZada]

There's Favoured Soul, though I forget whether they've got SR.

Plus wings, full casting, and damage reduction.

[Eldariel]

On my first post I didn't say the monk was the best at unarmed combat, I said they were the best at surviving attacks. I believe they are the only base case with all good saves, spell resistance, several immunities. They also can close in on an enemy with high speed, teleporting and etherealness.

In other words, they're like casters except instead of getting a ton of spells and a selection in which to use and good melee and the chance to boost their caster levels, they get fixed SR (that they have to use a standard action to lower), need to itemize to boost all their stats (instead of just using e.g. Wildshape and pumping merely Wisdom) and poor AC.

Oh, and their movement speed doesn't even exceed that of anyone under Expeditious Retreat before level 12; it'll never exceed anyone under Shapechange or similar.


What's the best class for survival out of Core is probably the Druid. You don't get good Reflex-save but you do get:
- Complete Wisdom-focus (can afford 18 starting Wisdom on a 25 point buy and scale it up to 32 or so by the end of their career)
- Constitution (Fort) and Dexterity (Ref) from Wildshape forms (e.g. Bears and Tigers are v. good)
- Spell Resistance from the spell by the same name for 10 min/level (12+Caster Level; your Caster Level can be 5 points higher than your character level with just Orange Prism Ioun Stone and Beads of Karma [Core Items], so it'll most likely exceed Monk's by 6 points or so; can be cast on others too)
- Death Wards and Freedom of Movements and all that for piles of immunities (mostly 10 min/level; Death Ward is 1 min/level which does suck but it's still available).
- Energy Resistances and such to ward against many of the most common Reflex-saves (Freedom of Movement handles most of the rest and there's always Dispel Magic and variants)
- Wild Armor + Wild Shield + Natural Armor + Enhancement Natural Armor + Deflection for massive, massive armor class later on.
- Access to Air Walk (again 10 min/level), forms with massive landspeed and various speed buffs (or just plain flying forms; let's not forget that a level 17 Druid can sustain an all-day Shapechange).


Monk's immunities are mostly pointless since the DCs required to make those saves stay low (diseases and poisons). And their Spell Resistance is easy enough for opponents of equal level to overcome; even in Core, level X caster probably has Greater Spell Penetration (+4) and 1-2 points higher Caster Level than the level (so they beat your SR on 5-6). And, again, it has about equal chance to block spells from your allies. Out of core, a spell called "Assay Resistance" is a swift action to cast, and lowers target's spell resistance by 10 for 1 round/level, making Monk's SR pierceable by rolling 1 by an equally leveled opponent. There's also True Casting for one spell and such.

Movement Speed doesn't stack with magic so Monk isn't as much faster than others as one would like.

And their saves are good but the fact that they need Wis for abilities, Dex for AC/initiative/etc, Con for HP and Str for damage/to hit means they cannot really raise any of them efficiently leaving them with decidedly average score in all those meaning even though their base saves are good, they won't scale as well as people with ability to focus more on one stat or scale multiple abilities with shapechanging.

Really, Monks' survivability is an illusion, more or less. They're decent; they're better than Fighters (but hurt less); they're far worse than casters (and Barbarians outsurvive them mostly also with massively higher Fort, similar or higher Will and boatloads of HP), while also outdamaging them, matching their speed much of the time (level 15 or so Monk finally is faster) and overall being better rounded.

[Greenish]

- Wild Armor + Wild Shield + Natural Armor + Enhancement Natural Armor + Deflection for massive, massive armor class later on.Does the shield need Wild if it's Animated? That'd be cheaper.

[Eldariel]

Does the shield need Wild if it's Animated? That'd be cheaper.

Well, should not. That said, I'd just Wild it anyways since that's obviously what the enhancement is for and as such, unambiguously intended or whatever.

[hivedragon]

Personally I'd just ban wildshape/shape change/polymorphing, it tips the scales too much on the side of casters.

Has anyone ever played Final Fantasy I? You had the choice of the warrior, thief, black belt, red mage, white mage and black mage. The black mage was the biggest powerhouse but it was still worth it to have a black belt in your party despite the fact they never learned any magic. That's the kind of balance I want. But people seem to want to dismiss the concept of a character that doesn't rely on spellcasting.

Where does it say monks speed bonus does not apply when flying? cause I'd ignore that rule.

Edit: some ideas I got from this thread include:
making FoBs work like and stack with snap kick
exchange purity of body with mettle (as hex blade)
give them immunity to falling damage much earlier and give them flight

[Coidzor]

Personally I'd just ban wildshape/shape change/polymorphing, it tips the scales too much on the side of casters.

Well, that doesn't actually make the monk even relatively any better because other Melee does his niche better still.

[hivedragon]

Well, that doesn't actually make the monk even relatively any better because other Melee does his niche better still.

what classes are you referring to?
(you can't say anything from tome of battle)

[RaginChangeling]

what classes are you referring to?
(you can't say anything from tome of battle)

Fighter
Barbarian
Samurai
Hexblade
Duskblade
Ranger
Paladin
Rogue
Totemist
Incarnate
Soulborn
Soulknife

Off the top of my head.

[Doc Roc]

Personally I'd just ban wildshape/shape change/polymorphing, it tips the scales too much on the side of casters.

Has anyone ever played Final Fantasy I? You had the choice of the warrior, thief, black belt, red mage, white mage and black mage. The black mage was the biggest powerhouse but it was still worth it to have a black belt in your party despite the fact they never learned any magic. That's the kind of balance I want. But people seem to want to dismiss the concept of a character that doesn't rely on spellcasting.

Where does it say monks speed bonus does not apply when flying? cause I'd ignore that rule.

Edit: some ideas I got from this thread include:
making FoBs work like and stack with snap kick
exchange purity of body with mettle (as hex blade)
give them immunity to falling damage much earlier and give them flight

So, in other words, to make the game balanced, you need to pull out a big black marker, and cross through huge portions of the spell lists. Then re-edit a class in a fairly significant way. So far, we've decided monk needs full BAB, flurry as a standard, pounce, flight, and better ethereal. I would consider this a short list of insufficient fixes. If you merged in every feature from Runescarred Berserker, and expanded the rune list, we might be able to have a conversation.

This should tell you that the game is not balanced.



what classes are you referring to?
(you can't say anything from tome of battle)

Factotum, Persist Cleric, Favored Soul, Wildshape Ranger.
Oh god, Wildshape Ranger.
Binder.

[true_shinken]

Fighter
Barbarian
Samurai
Hexblade
Duskblade
Ranger
Paladin
Rogue
Totemist
Incarnate
Soulborn
Soulknife

Off the top of my head.
To be fair, Soulknife, Soulborn and CW Samurai are about on par with the Monk.

[Eldariel]

Personally I'd just ban wildshape/shape change/polymorphing, it tips the scales too much on the side of casters.

Has anyone ever played Final Fantasy I? You had the choice of the warrior, thief, black belt, red mage, white mage and black mage. The black mage was the biggest powerhouse but it was still worth it to have a black belt in your party despite the fact they never learned any magic. That's the kind of balance I want. But people seem to want to dismiss the concept of a character that doesn't rely on spellcasting.

No, the issue is you've said Monk is X, which it isn't. Like, Monk isn't the most survivable class. Nor is it a good mage killer. Then on the next turn you come and say "change this and this and this and then it works". The point of your post confuses people; I've realized you're aware that Monks as written suck and you'd want to make them better. However, you aren't really spelling it out; your earlier posts seem to state "Monk is X" which is confusing people since they think you want to discuss whether Monk is X rather than make "how to make Monk X".


what classes are you referring to?
(you can't say anything from tome of battle)

Barbarian is probably the best no-magic melee in Core; good base set of abilities, good skills (though different skill set than Monks, obviously), can reach amazing Fort & Will-saves (the two important saves for a sac of HP type), gets obscene amounts of HP, can have fine AC, gets a huge combat buff (though it doesn't scale well) as desired, and has a decent set of abilities across the levels.

Still, as is always the case with non-casters, in any Coreish environment it's always better to just take a handful of levels of Barbarian and multiclass. It's sad but true; core melee is designed so that you're punished for taking too many levels in it. Best Core Barbarian is probably Barbarian 12/Fighter 2/Sorcerer [or Bard] 2/Dragon Disciple 4. With few more or few less levels of Dragon Disciple depending on how many things you want in Ex (9 gets you Ex Wings but places you dangerously low on BAB, at mere 16; 10 is almost always wrong since you lose access to Enlarge Person that way). Barbarian actually scales the best since in Core you need more levels of Barbarian for extra uses of Rage.

Monk is similar except it has multiclass restrictions. Still, nobody is arguing that the two first levels of Monk are bad compared to other melee classes; they're fine and you're free to wear armor and ignore the wisdom mumbo jumbo thus getting rid of the big need to pump Dex+Wis defensively and Str offensively (outside Core this can be solved more elegantly, of course). It's just the rest of the class combined with the anemic synergy of its abilities and its obvious, poor attempt at mimicking casters which sucks. The whole does not come together. Get some non-core material to allow Monk to focus on one attribute, or make it more profitable to pump multiple attributes instead of focusing on one (such as being allowed to raise 4 attributes every 5 levels) to make multi-attribute dependent classes more viable.

[RaginChangeling]

To be fair, Soulknife, Soulborn and CW Samurai are about on par with the Monk.

CW Samurai has intimidate tricks, and full BaB for charging and power attacking.

Soulborn also has some nice Soulmelds to let it at least fly and fill in some of its weaknesses.

Soulknife... can grant access to the Soulbow. And its weapon is better than a Monk's fist.

I still think I could make a Soulknife, Soulborn or Samurai 20 that would contribute more than a Monk at every level.

[The Glyphstone]

And a Shock Trooping Samurai/Ronin with a friendly War Chanter giving Inspire Recklessness is hilarious.

[Zaq]

There's Favoured Soul, though I forget whether they've got SR.

They get this, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellResistance.htm) which is close enough in my book.

[Veyr]

what classes are you referring to?
(you can't say anything from tome of battle)
Since others have already handled the first question nicely, now I want to ask: why can't we say anything from Tome of Battle? It's incredibly elegant material that is exeedingly well-balanced and allows for a great many different character archetypes (monk among them) that were previously weak and boring to be fun, exciting, versatile, and competent (none of which ever described the monk).

[IthroZada]

Everyone keep in mind that the original parameters of the OP were that the monk made a good mage slayer, and not that it was awesome at melee. Just mentioning this because I'm seeing a lot of "these melee types out monk the monk" but not many "these melee types deal with wizards more efficiently." Which isn't to say that the monk is a good mage slayer, it's just that the right subject is not being debated.

[true_shinken]

CW Samurai has intimidate tricks, and full BaB for charging and power attacking.

Soulborn also has some nice Soulmelds to let it at least fly and fill in some of its weaknesses.

Soulknife... can grant access to the Soulbow. And its weapon is better than a Monk's fist.

I still think I could make a Soulknife, Soulborn or Samurai 20 that would contribute more than a Monk at every level.

Monk also gets tricks - Sun School is a pretty nice feat, it gains a lot from action points (since it has a lot of limited per day abilities), it gets the best benefit from Snap Kick due to higher BAB, it gets the Decisive Strike feature in the PHBII (the foundation of a very powerful lockdown build by archerpwr) and more. If you mention Soulbow, than Monk raises Tashalatora + psionic class.
A straight-classed Monk with Snap Kick, Sun School (the good thing about decisive strike, it counts as flurry for requirements) and Decisive Strike is not that bad. Add swift/immediate action teleports (Hidden Talent (Dimension Hop), Anklets of Translocation, Dragonmarks + Quicken SLA) and you've got a fairly mobile skirmisher that hits fairly hard. At 6th level, that's two attacks at BAB-2 (with Snap Kick) at 2d8+2xStr damage. And that's a single-classed Monk, you could do a lot better with a Monk/Ardent.
Monk is a very weak class, sure. It doesn't mean it's so much worse than the other very weak classes, through.

[Eldariel]

Everyone keep in mind that the original parameters of the OP were that the monk made a good mage slayer, and not that it was awesome at melee. Just mentioning this because I'm seeing a lot of "these melee types out monk the monk" but not many "these melee types deal with wizards more efficiently." Which isn't to say that the monk is a good mage slayer, it's just that the right subject is not being debated.

The issue is, no non-caster type is a good mage slayer, Monk or otherwise. Fighter and Barbarian have few more tricks up their sleeve and something like Wildshape Ranger or Soulmelder gets a ton more, but still they all get trashed by a caster who cares. So it's kinda pointless to think about who is "better" at mage slaying since they're all abysmal at it.

[Kaeso]

Everyone keep in mind that the original parameters of the OP were that the monk made a good mage slayer, and not that it was awesome at melee. Just mentioning this because I'm seeing a lot of "these melee types out monk the monk" but not many "these melee types deal with wizards more efficiently." Which isn't to say that the monk is a good mage slayer, it's just that the right subject is not being debated.

I thought it was pretty much impossible to do that. Trying to take out a wizard with melee combat is like bringing a rusty knife to a gun fight..... in an open plain.... at a 35 meter range.... while blindfolded and wearing a bright pink tutu.

[No brains]

I would like to say on behalf of the monk-
*Gets shredded by a barrage of machine gun fire from counter-posts, turning into a fine red mist*

It doesn't seem that people give the monk credit for being able to stun, especially at low levels. The penalties imposed by a stun can end a fight fast. While it still resigns the monk to the dip-bin rather than allowing it the glory of being an independent class, many melee classes feel that way anyway. Also, if you're old-school and rolled stats before choosing a class, getting many good numbers can turn MAD into a way to milk your class for all it is worth.

Okay. I'm done. Munx sux. Rez plz.:smallannoyed:

[Lhurgyof]

Oh, I didn't get that at all.

But it still doesn't do even remotely enough for the Monk.

:smallsigh:

Yes, yes, the monk is bad.

But it's not like taking a level in monk is like sending your character off a cliff.

They're bad, but they're not that bad.

They can be optimized a little to be on par with your average party, but they certainly aren't very good. They can do more tame ubercharging with the right feats.

Except in Dark Sun. :P



edit:

CW Samurai has intimidate tricks, and full BaB for charging and power attacking.

Soulborn also has some nice Soulmelds to let it at least fly and fill in some of its weaknesses.

Soulknife... can grant access to the Soulbow. And its weapon is better than a Monk's fist.

I still think I could make a Soulknife, Soulborn or Samurai 20 that would contribute more than a Monk at every level.

Okay, first off all, no.

CW samurai wont be on par, both suck but monk can be optimized a little better. (Or at least at earlier levels)

I never read magic of incarnum, so I have no clue on that one.

And it's called Necklace of Natural attacks.

[Cog]

...bringing a rusty knife to a gun fight...
Well, hey.

He might get tetanus when he loots your body.


They can be optimized a little to be on par with your average party, but they certainly aren't very good. They can do more tame ubercharging with the right feats.
"They can do a single basic trick, but weaker than most other melee classes, and only if you optimize for it," really isn't a strength.

[hivedragon]

Since others have already handled the first question nicely, now I want to ask: why can't we say anything from Tome of Battle? It's incredibly elegant material that is exeedingly well-balanced and allows for a great many different character archetypes (monk among them) that were previously weak and boring to be fun, exciting, versatile, and competent (none of which ever described the monk).

I bought tome of battle, I haven't read all of it, but my main issue with it is the classes are just casters that are specialized in melee. It's not that I have a problem with that but I want to play something that is not a caster at all. and yeah I know that the monk is certainly not free of spell like abilities, but it's close enough.

I like the monk because it looks built to take attacks from casters fairly well. SR + all good saves + evasion + mettle make it a hard target.

As for mage slaying there is quivering palm. But just most of the time it can quickly close in and grapple/stun the mage till the rest of the party close in.

[Flickerdart]

I would like to say on behalf of the monk-
*Gets shredded by a barrage of machine gun fire from counter-posts, turning into a fine red mist*

It doesn't seem that people give the monk credit for being able to stun, especially at low levels. The penalties imposed by a stun can end a fight fast. While it still resigns the monk to the dip-bin rather than allowing it the glory of being an independent class, many melee classes feel that way anyway. Also, if you're old-school and rolled stats before choosing a class, getting many good numbers can turn MAD into a way to milk your class for all it is worth.

Okay. I'm done. Munx sux. Rez plz.:smallannoyed:
Except your stun DC is pitiful (due to the MAD and even worse if you're dipping), your uses per day are pitiful, you need to land an attack which is difficult due to MAD and low BAB...
And every class can benefit from "many good numbers". You don't need to suck to do it.

[Doc Roc]

Okay, first off all, no.

CW samurai wont be on par, both suck but monk can be optimized a little better. (Or at least at earlier levels)

I never read magic of incarnum, so I have no clue on that one.

And it's called Necklace of Natural attacks.

You've never seen a Wintimidate Samurai.



I like the monk because it looks built to take attacks from casters fairly well. SR + all good saves + evasion + mettle make it a hard target.

As for mage slaying there is quivering palm. But just most of the time it can quickly close in and grapple/stun the mage till the rest of the party close in.

May I politely suggest you have deep misconceptions about what a wizard can do? Please click the second link in my sig, and let the nice people in channel talk you through. In short, step into my dojo.

[Eldariel]

It doesn't seem that people give the monk credit for being able to stun, especially at low levels. The penalties imposed by a stun can end a fight fast. While it still resigns the monk to the dip-bin rather than allowing it the glory of being an independent class, many melee classes feel that way anyway. Also, if you're old-school and rolled stats before choosing a class, getting many good numbers can turn MAD into a way to milk your class for all it is worth.

Stunning Fist is a fine feat. Thing is, it's a feat; everybody can pick it. Monks get most uses of it but unfortunately have trouble affording high enough Wisdom to make it good. It's decent for Monks but it's also decent for everybody else. It's nothing special for Monks in specific, really.

And MAD goes beyond requiring insanely good stats; even with all 18s, you have level-up points and stat boosters coming into play; you'll never get as high stats as someone focusing on a single stat, and need to spend much, much more money on stat boosters and eventually Tomes to keep up. Druid pumps Wisdom and Constitution; Monk pumps Strength, Dexterity, Constitution and Wisdom.

Even with all 18s, Monk will end up with 2 critical stats at lower value than the Druid, and he'll need to expend many hundreds of thousands more if he wishes to get Tomes for all those stats in the end, and on all levels he'll spend more on stat boosters.

[RaginChangeling]

I bought tome of battle, I haven't read all of it, but my main issue with it is the classes are just casters that are specialized in melee. It's not that I have a problem with that but I want to play something that is not a caster at all. and yeah I know that the monk is certainly not free of spell like abilities, but it's close enough.

I like the monk because it looks built to take attacks from casters fairly well. SR + all good saves + evasion + mettle make it a hard target.

As for mage slaying there is quivering palm. But just most of the time it can quickly close in and grapple/stun the mage till the rest of the party close in.

The monk has more Magical abilities than any of the TOB classes have innately. The Swordsage can have more potentially, but you have to specifically pick them. The Monk has all sorts of weird and magical stuff hanging on its chassis, like Tongue of Sun and Moon or Abundant Step.

[Lhurgyof]

Well, hey.

He might get tetanus when he loots your body.


"They can do a single basic trick, but weaker than most other melee classes, and only if you optimize for it," really isn't a strength.

Yep, they can ubercharge, but not quite as well as a lion totem barbarian/shocktrooper dungeoncrasher.

And your right, and that's why the monk is a bad class. But it is nowhere near as appalling as you people make it out to be. Well, not you people, but the select few that see monk and start a-typing. "Monk is teh suxxor, it doesn't even have a familiar."

[Greenish]

I bought tome of battle, I haven't read all of it, but my main issue with it is the classes are just casters that are specialized in melee.Right-o, what with being less magical than the monk, they're obviously casters…


I like the monk because it looks built to take attacks from casters fairly well. SR + all good saves + evasion + mettle make it a hard target.Then you might like Argent Fist. How does getting Wis to AC in full plate, Wis to all saves (so twice to will save), Evasion and Mettle sound to you? Oh, and lets slap on a large boost to Stunning Fist's DC, and assorted miscellaneous powers. Turn Undead for powering devotion feats, sure. Lets say it's uses are based on wis instead of cha, too, so we'll have enough to fuel animal devotion to gain flight. Slap in the ability to use all paladin spells from wands.

Sounds good, eh? Descriptions can be misleading.


As for mage slaying there is quivering palm.:smallbiggrin:

And for hunting elephants there is BB gun.

[Flickerdart]

I bought tome of battle, I haven't read all of it, but my main issue with it is the classes are just casters that are specialized in melee. It's not that I have a problem with that but I want to play something that is not a caster at all. and yeah I know that the monk is certainly not free of spell like abilities, but it's close enough.

Monks get more supernatural abilities than most if not all melee classes. None of the ToB classes except Swordsage get supernatural abilities, and swordsages don't have to take them either.



I like the monk because it looks built to take attacks from casters fairly well. SR + all good saves + evasion + mettle make it a hard target.

Monks don't get Mettle.



As for mage slaying there is quivering palm. But just most of the time it can quickly close in and grapple/stun the mage till the rest of the party close in.
Polymorph. Freedom of Movement. Flight. Invisibility. Dimension Door. Divine Power. Miss chances. Any number of initiative-skewing spells. What are you doing about any of these?

[Lhurgyof]

Except your stun DC is pitiful (due to the MAD and even worse if you're dipping), your uses per day are pitiful, you need to land an attack which is difficult due to MAD and low BAB...
And every class can benefit from "many good numbers". You don't need to suck to do it.

Sorry for the double post, but with intuitive strike you can get your MAD to decrease.

[Flickerdart]

Sorry for the double post, but with intuitive strike you can get your MAD to decrease.
Spending one of the seven feats you get, ever, to catch up a little bit to a T4 class isn't very helpful.

[OracleofWuffing]

Has anyone ever played Final Fantasy I? You had the choice of the warrior, thief, black belt, red mage, white mage and black mage. The black mage was the biggest powerhouse but it was still worth it to have a black belt in your party despite the fact they never learned any magic.
Offensively, the only thing Black Mages have over Black Belts is that BMs can hit multiple enemies at once, whereas BBs (and Masters) actually have the highest damage potential in the game (and vitality, and before prestige classing, the highest Magic Defense growth). Keep in mind that Black Magic spell damage is basically unmodified damage in a range, whereas melee damage is based off of your weapon and enhanceable stats, so getting the best mileage out of BM spells is to Fast your melee types, meaning the only reason to pick one over a Red Mage is to get Fast more quickly and in more doses. (And don't forget how many Black Magic spells were bugged in FF1... Lok2 increases the enemy's evasion.)

... Then mind you that most of your boss battles in FF1 are against single targets...

[No brains]

Stunning Fist is a fine feat. Thing is, it's a feat; everybody can pick it. Monks get most uses of it but unfortunately have trouble affording high enough Wisdom to make it good. It's decent for Monks but it's also decent for everybody else. It's nothing special for Monks in specific, really.


Oh, except that they can get it, what, seven levels before anyone else can? Low-levels can still be pretty fun.:smallsmile:

[Lhurgyof]

Spending one of the seven feats you get, ever, to catch up a little bit to a T4 class isn't very helpful.

True, but what else are you going to spend feats on? If you go the stunning method, you'll essentially take that, ability focus, and then freezing the lifeblood as well as some other stunning feats.

[Veyr]

:smallsigh:

Yes, yes, the monk is bad.

But it's not like taking a level in monk is like sending your character off a cliff.
Didn't say it was; a level or two of Monk can be quite good in certain builds (though Unarmed Swordsage would be better for almost all of them, unless you really need Evasion).

But a "Monk", as in anyone who is spending most of their levels in the Monk class, is going to be fairly poor by about level 6 (the absolute maximum number of levels of Monk that anyone should ever take), and terrible by level 10.


I bought tome of battle, I haven't read all of it, but my main issue with it is the classes are just casters that are specialized in melee. It's not that I have a problem with that but I want to play something that is not a caster at all. and yeah I know that the monk is certainly not free of spell like abilities, but it's close enough.
No, no it is not. You should try the system: it plays very differently from a spellcaster. Just because there are a list of abilities that you can choose a subset of that happen to be divided into 9 levels does not make them spellcasters. Spellcasters have to be careful with their spell slots; even those playing the 15-minute workday are mindful of their slots (or else they wouldn't be bothering with the 15-minute workday). Initiators, on the other hand, focus on getting out their maneuvers as quickly and as brutally as possible (at higher levels, spellcasters tend to do this too, but this is true of initiators at all levels). It's a very different playstyle.

[Eldariel]

Oh, except that they can get it, what, seven levels before anyone else can? Low-levels can still be pretty fun.:smallsmile:

Fair. Even then, as you said, it's mostly multiclassing that benefits of getting early Stunning Fist; Monk 1/Druid X in particular can make amazing use of that feat with extremely well-scaling Wis. Being a pure Monk on low levels without godlike stats is so horribly painful that kinda...turns me off of that option though. I mean, on level 1, without godlike stats you can expect to have what, 15 AC, +1/+1 for 1d6+3 attacks and 10 HP? With one Stunning Fist per day.

And that's already a 32pb with 8 Int/Cha (16/14/14/8/16/8) :/ Even full 18s gives for mere 18 AC, +2/+2 to hit for 1d6+4 and 12 HP; something 14/14/14 Fighter can effortlessly replicate. Monk's definitely the weakest of the PHB-classes on low levels; I kinda hate the class design on that regard. It makes the player believe it's some kind of a high level monster class that just starts off slow, until one realizes it never really gets anywhere. It's like it's designed to trick the player into playing one and realizing you're intentionally gimping yourself and you're one of those mystic monks instead of even being a martial badass so you don't have even that going on for you. I love playing martial artists and mystics but I just can't do that with the Monk-class 'cause WoTC hated it :smallmad:

[Flickerdart]

True, but what else are you going to spend feats on? If you go the stunning method, you'll essentially take that, ability focus, and then freezing the lifeblood as well as some other stunning feats.
Extra Stunning is always nice, for example.

[Coidzor]

Monk [...] gets the best benefit from Snap Kick due to higher BAB[...]

What higher BAB? :smallconfused:


You've never seen a Wintimidate Samurai.

I believe Shneekythelost(sp?) has a very nice example of one in action available.

[Metahuman1]

You know, I've looked over a number of how to make monk work/work better threads. Here are a few ideas I think would, if not totally fix it, at least get it up into forth or maybe even third tier.

1: Give it a freaking full BAB progression. I think this is the only truly Melee oriented core class Wizards of the Coast put out for 3.5 that didn't get one. Rouge and Druid and Cleric when they got designed were not really intended to turn into Melee Stars that could do it on there own. The expectation was they could do it with help, but this wouldn't be where most of there time went. Monk, monk is suppose to be able to do it like Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger, and Fighter. All have Full BAB. Nuff said.

2: Give it a D12 Hit die. It's AC is abysmal and it's Con is usually not it's first priority stat becuase it also needs at a bear minimum Dex and Wis. I have another fix for this later down to keep Strength from being a needed stat, but this will help it survive real Melee longer.

3: Give it 6+Int Skill points a level. Really, his whole thing is developing his ability's through endless practice training and meditation, so this is fully in line with class flavor.

4: Give it Insightful Strike, Wisdom, on attack rolls to hit and on damage rolls, no later then third lvl. First would be best really, Second would help Minimize the front loading of the class. Third just makes sure the ability is still useful with out having to jump through an utterly unfair number of Hoops to have it. And this also significantly reduces MAD.

5: Give it Pounce at First lvl. It's the single Most Stupidly Necessary ability for any Melee character that isn't a stand still build. So, yeah, it's dumb, but Monk Needs it Just like More then Half the Melee characters in the game need it.

6: Give it Mettle and Improved Mettle at the same time's it get's Evasion and Improved Evasion so that it get's full benefit from it's Full saving throw progression.

7: Wholeness of body should give you Fast healing equal too your monk lvl times your wisdom Mod per Minute you concentrate on doing so. This won't help in actual combat, but it will help between combat's, particularly if it scales to also remove Ability damage and drain and level drain/Negative level's/level loss as you progress. Congrats, you now can't be accused of being any more of a drain on Party Resources then the Frenzied Breserker or the Wildshaping Druid and his Animal Companion that needs too be Buffed.

8: Double it's lvl dependent AC so that it get's a +10 over 20 lvls, this will help it stay standing longer. It should also get the SwordSages Lvl dependent Initiative Progression.

9: Give Stunning Fist a boost to save DC, and Make it work in conjunction with Flurry of Blows, Snap Kick Feat, Full attack action and by extension, Pounce. And let him Channel it through Monk weapons if he wishes.

10: Make his speed bonuses Inherent and thus Stack-able with Magical boosts Such as Longstrider, Expeditious Retreat, and Haste.

11: Make his Inherent SR a free Action lower and none active to friendly spells like healing while he's unconscious.

12: Make Quivering Palm a "Save or Take ability score damage" ability usable daily. Maybe a D4 Con Damage or D6 other, players choice at activation, Per Five Monk levels would do the trick? I think so. Oh, and of course it can be used in conjunction with Flurry, Snap kick feat, and full attack actions and by extension, Pounce. And let him channel it through monk weapons if he wishes.

13: Make him get the following Bonus feat progression.

lvl1: Weapons Focus, His choice.
lvl4: Weapons Specialization his Choice.
lvl8: Greater Weapons Focus, His choice. And Snap Kick.
lvl12: Greater Weapons Specialization, his choice.
Lvl14:Weapons Master, His choice.

14: Last one. Monk has issues with DR and regeneration and fast healing. Where gonna fix that.

At 3rd lvl, you unarmed strikes are considered magic for over coming DR.
4th lvl, if you need a special energy type to keep a creature form regenerating for fast healing or too bypass it's DR, such as fire or acid for trolls, your unarmed strikes automatically count as that type of energy.
5th lvl, Treated As Alchemical Silver for Over coming DR. Also Treated as Cold Iron for over coming DR.
6th lvl, Treated as Adimatine for over coming DR.
7th lvl,Treated as Lawful for Over coming DR. Also treated as Bludonging, Perice, or Slashing, which ever will allow the most DR to be By passed, particularly if one would allow for No DR but the other two would not.
8th lvl, Treated as Good or Evil for over coming DR, dependent on Alignment.





Now, THAT should make it playable by giving it the HP, AC, Get out of save or Suck/Lose/Die spells protections, increased ability to hurt it's target, and ability to do what it's fluffed and originally intended too do. Kill Casters, move rapidly around the battle field and hit and run, do short spurts of stand and deliver, and cripple and kill things with vicious onslaughts of attacks in a hurry.

[Arbitrarious]

That is a lot of changes. I think it would be easier to admit that the monk is fundamentally flawed. It has it's uses, but overall is damaged goods. The fact that you are suggested that many changes shows that. At that level of modification it would be best to get back to the core concept of what defines a monk idealistically and redesign a class from there. It's not worth the trouble to try and preserve some of the chassis. After all one would expect an improved version of the class to be similar to the original.

So the most important, what makes a monk a monk?

[Taelas]

Create an "armor type" called "Robes" Treat it as functionally AC +0, armor type = none. Allow it to be "masterwork"-able, thus enchantable.

Bracers of armor do this already. (Yes, according to A&EG, you can enchant bracers of armor with the armor special abilities from the DMG.)

[Metahuman1]

That is a lot of changes. I think it would be easier to admit that the monk is fundamentally flawed. It has it's uses, but overall is damaged goods. The fact that you are suggested that many changes shows that. At that level of modification it would be best to get back to the core concept of what defines a monk idealistically and redesign a class from there. It's not worth the trouble to try and preserve some of the chassis. After all one would expect an improved version of the class to be similar to the original.

So the most important, what makes a monk a monk?

Not so much fundamentally flawed, as the Fundamentals are more of the "Make lot's of medium to high damage dealing attack rolls and debilitating special attacks while moving around a lot better then everyone else on the field. And do it with Martial Arts Flavor."

Yes, I know What I did was more of a rebuild the whole class deal, but look at all that, combine it with whatever s left of the Monk that wasn't changed or replaced, and then, then, look at them in conjunction spread out over 20 lvls side by side with any Teir 4 class, and Most if not all of the Teir 3's, maybe, maybe even some of the Teir 2's, and tell me it can't compete and hold it's own while still having the basic Concept listed above and the flavor and fun still attached.

[MeeposFire]

Nah don't care for it unless you change flurry to an attack action. Charging is too limited best not rely completely on it.

[The Cat Goddess]

Nah don't care for it unless you change flurry to an attack action. Charging is too limited best not rely completely on it.

Agreed. Pounce is stupid and situational in comparison.

Plus, making Flurry function like Snap Kick allows for cool AoO/Tripping fun.

Also, on the commentary for Bracers of Armor...

The reason I suggest "Robes" rather than "Bracers" is... the Magic Vestment spell.

Many people prefer getting +1 Armor with specials instead of +5 Armor because they can add Magic Vestment for tougher fights.

[MeeposFire]

Actually in the magic item compendium robes are allowed already to add to AC in addition to the already existing examples that already do that. Every monk should get echanted robes for AC and magic bracers for the non-AC stuff.

[Eldariel]

Many people prefer getting +1 Armor with specials instead of +5 Armor because they can add Magic Vestment for tougher fights.

All day; it's hour/level so there's really no reason to get armor enhancements if the party has a Cleric past level 10 or so.

[MeeposFire]

All day; it's hour/level so there's really no reason to get armor enhancements if the party has a Cleric past level 10 or so.

Well they do stack and considering that unless you get a lot of it AC does not scale well so you would like to have lots of AC boosting stuff (and armor enchantments are relatively cheap anyway).

[Eldariel]

Well they do stack and considering that unless you get a lot of it AC does not scale well so you would like to have lots of AC boosting stuff (and armor enchantments are relatively cheap anyway).

I don't understand a word you just said. What stacks? Magic Vestment and Armor Enhancement most certainly don't. And yeah, AC is a tad expensive so investing money into something that overlaps with Magic Vestment probably isn't the best way to get there as efficiently as possible.

[MeeposFire]

The armor bonus for bracers of armor and robes is an armor bonus-not an enhancement bonus so the robes AC would stack with whatever magic vestment would give which is an enhancement bonus to AC. So a robe with a +5 armor bonus gets imbued by a magic vestment spell by a level 20 caster would now have an AC of +10 (5 armor bonus+ 5 enhancement bonus to that armor bonus). Every character should be able to afford putting some points into an AC bonus.

[Curmudgeon]

Create an "armor type" called "Robes" Treat it as functionally AC +0, armor type = none. Allow it to be "masterwork"-able, thus enchantable.
Why are you proposing to jump through such hoops needlessly? You don't have to make robes be an armor type (which then automatically makes most Monk abilities fail); just give them an AC bonus directly. The rules are in Magic Item Compendium on pages 233-234. Basically anything you can add to bracers (ex: Bracers of Armor) you can add to robes (ex: Robe of the Archmagi). No tinkering (creating new rules) is required, and as the Monk's robe with an AC bonus isn't in the armor category, their class abilities still function. Only actual armor needs to be masterwork; Body (robes) and Arm (bracers) wondrous items don't have that requirement.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Oh, except that they can get it, what, seven levels before anyone else can? Low-levels can still be pretty fun.:smallsmile:

Says you; personally I am sick of them (having all your campaigns never go beyond level 7ish tends to make you biased when all the fun toys are out of your reach)


Didn't say it was; a level or two of Monk can be quite good in certain builds (though Unarmed Swordsage would be better for almost all of them, unless you really need Evasion).

But a "Monk", as in anyone who is spending most of their levels in the Monk class, is going to be fairly poor by about level 6 (the absolute maximum number of levels of Monk that anyone should ever take), and terrible by level 10.

<Snip>

Hey Invisible fist is an AWESOME ACF, shame it is monk only....

[Veyr]

I'll admit I'm not familiar with it, but I would be surprised if it were much better than Cloak of Deception.

[Zaq]

I'll admit I'm not familiar with it, but I would be surprised if it were much better than Cloak of Deception.

It is better, actually. It recovers automatically with no action required, and it's an immediate action, not a swift. It also lasts for 1 round, not until the end of your turn, so it's a solid defensive buff as well. (It also upgrades to Blink at 9th level, but that's not worth being a Monk for 9 levels.)

[No brains]

Says you; personally I am sick of them (having all your campaigns never go beyond level 7ish tends to make you biased when all the fun toys are out of your reach)

Eh, I just like low levels because not having the answer for everything adds random fun and romance to the action. Besides, if you need to go to a higher level, you can have your monk retire with dignity or die heroically and just roll a useful class.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Eh, I just like low levels because not having the answer for everything adds random fun and romance to the action. Besides, if you need to go to a higher level, you can have your monk retire with dignity or die heroically and just roll a useful class.

To be honest; I find that higher levels are more prone to actual tactical thinking, yes you may have a tool for everything; but your enemies too. But that is neither here, nor there so, in relation to the monk.

Just a personal anecdote:

I was invited to a high level (17th) one shot; I brought in a 17th level monk, great stats (minimum 16 in dump stats averaging 26-28 ish in the important one....the enemy? A Dracolich, one character death and guess what? It was my monk...failed a Ref save versus the breath weapon....even half damage was enough to kill me outright.

[Popertop]

To be fair, Soulknife, Soulborn and CW Samurai are about on par with the Monk.

Wow, just, wow.

If this doesn't say what needs to be said about the monk,
then I don't think anything can say it.

[TroubleBrewing]

I think this anecdote illustrates nicely some of the major issues with the Monk.



I brought in a 17th level monk,

No multiclassing/PRC's? I can't say that the end of this story surprised me. :smalltongue:



great stats (minimum 16 in dump stats averaging 26-28 ish in the important one.

Just goes to show: Even great stats cannot save the MAD class. You still can't focus on more than two or three stats with equipment/level bonuses; you'll always have one or two stats that suffer.



failed a Ref save versus the breath weapon.

Improved Evasion won't always be helpful. Sometimes, you need a miss chance. Or immunity to elemental damage. Or a Contingent Teleport. Or things only casting can provide. Also, see the above point about MAD.



even half damage was enough to kill me outright.

D8 HD and again, MAD. A little more Con focus and your Monk might have lived to be useless another day. :smallyuk:

[MeeposFire]

Improved Evasion won't always be helpful. Sometimes, you need a miss chance. Or immunity to elemental damage. Or a Contingent Teleport. Or things only casting can provide. Also, see the above point about MAD.



D8 HD and again, MAD. A little more Con focus and your Monk might have lived to be useless another day. :smallyuk:

Well miss chance does nothing on breath weapons. A monk that is killed by a breathweapon is a situation where a lot of classes would have died. Considering that this is a situation that a monk usually does well in I have to figure that this was a very good roll (d8 HD and half damage is better than say what the crusader would do with their d10 but failed saving throw for full damage). Immunity would work but a lot of classes that are good don't get that naturally (like the warblade and crusader for instance). Monks aren't good but this sounds like an unfair situation for showing how bad the monk is.

[TroubleBrewing]

I think it's a great one. While the monk was stranded on the ground, making like the delicious easy target that it is, the dracolich fried him. Instead of being invisible, or currently out of range of the breath weapon (such as one who was flying/on a flying mount/generally remaining out of reach) the monk had no choice but to remain on the ground to be carbonized.

[MeeposFire]

I think it's a great one. While the monk was stranded on the ground, making like the delicious easy target that it is, the dracolich fried him. Instead of being invisible, or currently out of range of the breath weapon (such as one who was flying/on a flying mount/generally remaining out of reach) the monk had no choice but to remain on the ground to be carbonized.

Well invisible does not normally work on dragons and with most characters either don't come with mounts or they would be available to all. It is strange that the monk is the only one caught in the blast (in fact it is a waste as one target is better for a full attack which would show a big monk problem). I mean how would a tier 3 crusader defend against a dragon breath attack that does not involve items?

[Greenish]

I mean how would a tier 3 crusader defend against a dragon breath attack that does not involve items?Immortal Fortitude and /lol?

[MeeposFire]

Immortal Fortitude and /lol?

Well if you happen to be in that stance instead of one of the better options that would work and you would have to spend a feat at level 15 to get that 8th level stance. Still I guess that they do but not every class has that even in tier 3. Should have I said warblade that fails a save? At some point tier 3 classes will fail a save against a breath weapon from a dragon and if it killed a monk of equal level dealing half damage then it should kill about anything else with full damage outside of spells.

[Greenish]

Should have I said warblade that fails a save?What with Moment of Alacrity or Diamond Defense?

Well, I guess they'll have to stomach it with their d12 HD and lesser MAD.

[MeeposFire]

What with Moment of Alacrity or Diamond Defense?

Well, I guess they'll have to stomach it with their d12 HD and lesser MAD.

Well asumoing he did fail his ave somehow for whatever reason. Let us see

Since the warblade takes double the damage let double the HP for the monk to show the difference.

17*4.5=76.5*2=effectively 153 HP vs the attack
17*6.5=110.5

The warblade needs to have a con score on average 4 points higher to almost equal the gap. Normally this could be achieved but if the monk had better than normal stats it is possible that the monk could take this hit better.

Though to be honest a monk is so limited that even if it could take this one hit better it does not matter since they have so much less stuff to do in other situations. For instance the stuff you mention show how the warblade would likely pass the saving throw. what this shows is that even with the better defense to an attack still won't save it and it is too limited to be effective in other situations.

[TroubleBrewing]

What with Moment of Alacrity or Diamond Defense?

Well, I guess they'll have to stomach it with their d12 HD and lesser MAD.

Exactly what I'm talking about. If you can't hurt the dragon, avoid it.

If you can't avoid it, soak it.

If you can't soak it, mitigate it.

If you can't hurt it, avoid it, soak it, or mitigate it, you're a monk.

[Greenish]

17*4.5=76.5*2=effectively 153 HP vs the attack
17*6.5=110.5Full hp on first level.

Anyway, as you say, a warblade could easily have Con score 4 higher than monk without compromising any other important stats.

[Edit]: Shall we play more? How about swordsage, with good ref save, imp. evasion and above mentioned diamond mind save boosters? A totemist or DFA with heavy Con focus, access to all-day elemental resistances and flight? Psywarr with a pile of temporary HP and immediate action elemental resistance?

[MeeposFire]

Well when I build I make con a big stat but I know that is not common wisdom. Still this was not typical as the poster said he had unusually high stats so the con bonus should be comparable in this case.

Monk=160
Warblade=116

The warblade needs to still have a con over 4 points higher to outdo the monk in this case. I would still take the warblade as a character but sometimes you will die from the same thing that kills the simple monk.

EDIT: I don't think you actually understand my point. I am not saying monks are good. Far from it. What I am saying is that if a monk dies from a failed reflex save against a dragon breath weapon a lot of classes are in trouble some more than the monk in that specific situation. That is a whole different situation.

[TroubleBrewing]

but sometimes you will die from the same thing that kills the simple monk.

Sure. Everybody gets killed by a Sphere of Annihilation. The issue here is more that getting killed is a lot less likely when you are... Frankly, when you are anything but a monk.

[Greenish]

Sure. Everybody gets killed by a Sphere of Annihilation. The issue here is more that getting killed is a lot less likely when you are... Frankly, when you are anything but a monk.Well, I don't know about that. Monk has decent defenses when compared to it's tier-mates.

And there's still tier 6 look down on.

[MeeposFire]

Sure. Everybody gets killed by a Sphere of Annihilation. The issue here is more that getting killed is a lot less likely when you are... Frankly, when you are anything but a monk.

Of course. Monks die from things that would not kill many other classes so easily but reflex based attacks is not the typical reason even for a monk. Frankly that does not show the true failings of the monk which are legion.

[Greenish]

Of course. Monks die from things that would not kill many other classes so easily but reflex based attacks is not the typical reason even for a monk.Well, I think it's a pretty good showcase, given that it's something monk ought to be good at.

[MeeposFire]

Well, I think it's a pretty good showcase, given that it's something monk ought to be good at.

Well it is something he should be good at it just isn't full proof. They have good reflex saves, traditionally decent to good dex, and imp evasion. For this situation this is better than most classes even for stuff above them in the tier order. The problem is that this is a very limited situation so overall this does not help its stock and it is a situation that rolling a 1 is still a failure which is something that can strike most characters. If the other classes would die in this situation all it tells us is that all those classes can die in that situation. The monk would be just one of many in this case. Now if we did the situation a bunch of times just doing the breath weapon the results would start going in the monks favor but even then the monk would still such since just being decent against AOEs is not enough to be a good character.

[Greenish]

Well it is something he should be good at it just isn't full proof.Of course it's not "proof", it's merely an anecdote that illustrates the monk's troubles.

They have good reflex saves, traditionally decent to good dex, and imp evasion. For this situation this is better than most classes even for stuff above them in the tier order.You asked what tier 3 could do in such a situation, and I showed you a whole bunch of ways they're better suited for this than the monk, even though it's one of the few strengths of monk, so the story does work at highlighting the monk's weakness.

it is a situation that rolling a 1 is still a failureNot for skill checks (Moment of Alacrity) or necessarily for Fort saves (Steadfast Determination). For the classes that can't afford the failure, which many do.

If the other classes would die in this situation all it tells us is that all those classes can die in that situation.But they wouldn't.

Now if we did the situation a bunch of times just doing the breath weapon the results would start going in the monks favorBut it wouldn't. It's the monk's strong point, relatively speaking, but that even it falls flat when compared to (what many consider) the ideal balance point. Hence, the situation is as good as any for demonstrating monk's weakness.

[Eldariel]

Not for skill checks (Moment of Alacrity) or necessarily for Fort saves (Steadfast Determination). For the classes that can't afford the failure, which many do.

Moment of Alacrity gives you +10 to your Initiative. You may be thinking of Action Before Thought, which indeed would be extremely unlikely to fail since it doesn't fail at 1, meaning the Warblade is liable to take ½ damage practically always with d12 HD and highish Con. Though I'd find Diamond Defense more likely to prepare.

[Greenish]

You may be thinking of Action Before ThoughtRight, I don't know how I got those two confused. :smallredface:

[MeeposFire]

Of course it's not "proof", it's merely an anecdote that illustrates the monk's troubles.
You asked what tier 3 could do in such a situation, and I showed you a whole bunch of ways they're better suited for this than the monk, even though it's one of the few strengths of monk, so the story does work at highlighting the monk's weakness.
Not for skill checks (Moment of Alacrity) or necessarily for Fort saves (Steadfast Determination). For the classes that can't afford the failure, which many do.
But they wouldn't.
But it wouldn't. It's the monk's strong point, relatively speaking, but that even it falls flat when compared to (what many consider) the ideal balance point. Hence, the situation is as good as any for demonstrating monk's weakness.

1) It is anecdotal evidence of something that can happen to a lot of classes so it is not all that special to the monk.

2) You also assume they have all these things on as well which in many cases are not likely. Crusader have much better stances than immortal fortitude (and are more likely be in them at the start of the fight at full health) and action before thought (which is the maneuver I think you want since moment of alacrity is a boost to initiative not saves) is a major opportunity cost for a warblade as it is one of only 6 maneuvers you can have ready at level 17 (of which you already likely are using two other slots to boost your will save and to eliminate status conditions which leaves you only three maneuvers for strikes and boosts which are usually better for a warblade since most warblades decide to just soak straight damage as has been said before. Unfortunately for the warblade on average if it was enough to kill the monk in one hit it would likely be enough to kill the warblade in one hit on a failed reflex save).

What makes a monk fail is not that it could die at a reflex save vs high damage it is that it can't do anything important. Even if he passes the save the monk would be much less useful than everybody else. That is the true failing, that even if the monk survives nobody cares.

EDIT: Diamond defense would be much more likely since it is more versatile and warblades don't normally care about HP damage. It does share the same weakness as the monk in this case which is no matter how good your reflex save is you still fail on a one.

[Eldariel]

1) It is anecdotal evidence of something that can happen to a lot of classes so it is not all that special to the monk.

2) You also assume they have all these things on as well which in many cases are not likely. Crusader have much better stances than immortal fortitude (and are more likely be in them at the start of the fight at full health) and action before thought (which is the maneuver I think you want since moment of alacrity is a boost to initiative not saves) is a major opportunity cost for a warblade as it is one of only 6 maneuvers you can have ready at level 17 (of which you already likely are using two other slots to boost your will save and to eliminate status conditions which leaves you only three maneuvers for strikes and boosts which are usually better for a warblade since most warblades decide to just soak straight damage as has been said before. Unfortunately for the warblade on average if it was enough to kill the monk in one hit it would likely be enough to kill the warblade in one hit on a failed reflex save).

What makes a monk fail is not that it could die at a reflex save vs high damage it is that it can't do anything important. Even if he passes the save the monk would be much less useful than everybody else. That is the true failing, that even if the monk survives nobody cares.

EDIT: Diamond defense would be much more likely since it is more versatile and warblades don't normally care about HP damage. It does share the same weakness as the monk in this case which is no matter how good your reflex save is you still fail on a one.

Immortal Fortitude is the best stance you can keep up out of combat, 'cause in case you get nuked it's the one that's gonna buy you enough time to Strike of Righteous Vitality right back into it. Given Crusaders don't use too many Boosts, it's generally a relatively low opportunity cost to use your Swift Action the first round of combat to switch to whatever stance you desire. It's also one of the personal favorite stances though my favorite way of using it is juggling it with Master of the Nine Counterstance-ability and Stance of Alacrity; never turns off!

That said, I agree with your general point; if this showcases any fault of Monk's, it's their relatively low HP (lowish Con, d8 base HD) meaning attacks that do connect are a serious threat to them compared to their more durable cousins.

[MeeposFire]

Immortal Fortitude is the best stance you can keep up out of combat, 'cause in case you get nuked it's the one that's gonna buy you enough time to Strike of Righteous Vitality right back into it. Given Crusaders don't use too many Boosts, it's generally a relatively low opportunity cost to use your Swift Action the first round of combat to switch to whatever stance you desire. It's also one of the personal favorite stances though my favorite way of using it is juggling it with Master of the Nine Counterstance-ability and Stance of Alacrity; never turns off!

That said, I agree with your general point; if this showcases any fault of Monk's, it's their relatively low HP (lowish Con, d8 base HD) meaning attacks that do connect are a serious threat to them compared to their more durable cousins.

I guess I can grant that it would be prudent to have that stance up before combat. I play more warblades so my thoughts tend toward that style. It sucks that the crusader has to spend a feat for that though (unless you houserule).

I agree especially on non reflex attacks. Melee attacks shred monks way too fast and unless you have a lot of money (to buy lots of gear)the creature can afford to power attack you a ton to boot.

[Metahuman1]

If pounce is so situational at best, why does everyone doing melee want it and why do all the caster lovers/Dm's seem to hate it?

And Monk is Tier 5, not Tier 6. It has many many many failings and much suckage, but it is still better the CW Samurai.

Edit: The latter is aimed at the top post of this page.

[The Glyphstone]

If pounce is so situational at best, why does everyone doing melee want it and why do all the caster lovers/Dm's seem to hate it?

And Monk is Tier 5, not Tier 6. It has many many many failings and much suckage, but it is still better the CW Samurai.

Aside from the completely unfounded accusation that caster-lovers and DMs hate pounce...it's like this:

Situation 1: Fighter w/o Pounce vs. Ugly Monster.
-Fighter charges monster, gets single attack.
-Monster full attacks in return.
-Fighter full attacks.

Situation 2: Fighter w/ pounce vs. Ugly Monster
-Fighter charges monster and gets full attack
-Monster full attacks.
-Fighter full attacks.

Without pounce, the Fighter is at 1 full round of attacks in disadvantage, which can be quite severe when fighting a BBEG/'boss' encounter, or just something better in melee than you are.

[Eldariel]

If pounce is so situational at best, why does everyone doing melee want it and why do all the caster lovers/Dm's seem to hate it?

Not a single "caster lover" hates Pounce. Pounce is situational but at the same time, necessary for melee to contribute when they can't full attack. The difference between one attack and Attack + Haste + 3 iteratives is just too big; the one attack, especially if you're not a two-hander, won't do much. When you move, you're restricted to one attack.

Same applies to creatures; take Tarrasque and notice how it can't actually, even with its 48 BAB fully put into Power Attack (making its To Hit +9), kill a level 20 Wizard with 14 Constitution (from point buy; no items, level-ups or anything accounted for) outside Crit; it'd deal 83 damage with a hit and the Wizard has 91 HP. And that's pretty much the strongest melee creature in the game attacking the weakest target imaginable on level 20; of course Wizard's defenses are completely independent of his HP in the first place and thanks to items and such, we'd be looking at closer to 24 Con or so even on a Commoner that somehow tagged along.


Pounce only works when you can charge, but frankly, you can charge quite often especially if opposition doesn't go to any special lengths to deny you charge (and if they do, they trade action for your action which is fine). Pounce gives you a way to move and full attack the same turn. Not clean, not simple, but the best you've got.

Optimally, you'd just be able to move and full attack but we take what we're given. Tome of Battle of course solves this in multiple ways (you get swift action movement, standard action to use a strike which does all you need in a round, etc.) but everybody doesn't like giving scaling abilities to warriors, since somehow that reminds those people of Wizards or something.

Outside ToB, Pounce (or Travel Devotion, but it requires Turn Undead to fuel, and is supernatural) is pretty much the only way for melee to not waste their first round of every combat (and every round after the opponent moves or dies and you need to engage a new foe; note that casters can take a standard action to cast and move action to move, leaving the melee type unable to full attack ever; even without Tumble or any such, outside sophisticated lockdown builds that still means melee only gets 2 attacks per turn ever as opposed to the 5 he'd normally be entitled to). Oh, and god forbid you're TWFing; in that case you lose twice as many attacks (or rather, your single attack does half as much as the two-hander's). Or if you're like a Dragon or Tarrasque or whatever, you lose even way more.

[Gnaeus]

Certain charge builds aside, it isn't that all melee want pounce. It is that they want a way to move and full attack. Travel devotion, swift action teleports, chronocharms etc. all work also. Pounce is just a big chunk of the easier ways to do that.

[Veyr]

Also, you can get a lot of benefits on a charge. Multipliers around five times damage are far from unusual.

[Metahuman1]

Aside from the completely unfounded accusation that caster-lovers and DMs hate pounce...it's like this:

Situation 1: Fighter w/o Pounce vs. Ugly Monster.
-Fighter charges monster, gets single attack.
-Monster full attacks in return.
-Fighter full attacks.

Situation 2: Fighter w/ pounce vs. Ugly Monster
-Fighter charges monster and gets full attack
-Monster full attacks.
-Fighter full attacks.

Without pounce, the Fighter is at 1 full round of attacks in disadvantage, which can be quite severe when fighting a BBEG/'boss' encounter, or just something better in melee than you are.

You'll have to forgive me, I think looking back at the post I didn't phrase that right.

What I was attempting to express is an observation that many people, no shortage of them Dm's, though again this is often also true of players, and again, by no means all of either of them, are perfectly ok with The wizard using Summon Monster (for Allips or Similar Incorporeal Undead that deal ability score damage.), Fly, and a Wish scroll to beat the Tarreqest before there lvl is even double digits (An exaggeration I grant you but I think it makes the point of how insane some of the things Tier 1 classes, particularly the 3 core one's, are able to get away with with minimal batting of an eye.), but freak when you want to be able to move and swing your sword at the Tarreqest and use the momentum form the swing combined with years or practicing combo attacks too swing a second and maybe even a third time at it.

The Caster lover observation was, perhaps in hind sight, a bit of a personal bias drawn form a couple of rather frustrating few sessions when I first started learning what a Wizard who prepares something other then Fireball, Magic Missal and Chain Lighting Can do for the first time, much too the Nerfing of my Ranger, then My assassin, then my Fighter, then my monk, then my Paladin, then my PHB II Knight, then finally my Dragon Shamen. (Note: I lost a LOT of characters in that game. Kept rolling Nat 1's on my critical saves.)

It Bothered me a lot since I always liked sword play and martial arts and epic duels and battles and honorable combat, so I was naturally drawn to melee characters at first as a player. Now I've got a somewhat better feel how to use the cleric and Druid, and I can actually enjoy the Sorcerer. Though I'm not much of a Wizard fan still, and I try on a regular bases to fix or find fixes for Melee classes and then to try and play them with the fixes, though I've had a fairly low success rate with finding games I can both get into and will allow the latter.

And I kinda think you should be able to just flat move and fight in the same round, and I mean more then one hit. When I did martial arts, we practiced doing just that in order to keep form getting mobbed if we ever got attacked by two or three or more persons at once, which is a fairly realistic Scenario.

[Gnaeus]

The Caster lover observation was, perhaps in hind sight, a bit of a personal bias drawn form a couple of rather frustrating few sessions when I first started learning what a Wizard who prepares something other then Fireball, Magic Missal and Chain Lighting Can do for the first time, much too the Nerfing of my Ranger, then My assassin, then my Fighter, then my monk, then my Paladin, then my PHB II Knight, then finally my Dragon Shamen. (Note: I lost a LOT of characters in that game. Kept rolling Nat 1's on my critical saves.)


My opinion only?

People started playing with Core. They started with the assumption that core is balanced, and if their game didn't explode, that view was validated. It is very hard for most people to reverse their opinions once created.

Pounce, from lion totem for example, is clearly a stronger-than-core option. If core is balanced, therefore, it follows that pounce must be unbalanced. If barbarian is a strong, balanced class, a melee class that is better than barbarian (like warblade) must be OP. That wizard is rocking the game through a core (therefore balanced) option. Indications that the wizard is stronger than the melee then get chalked up to either luck or a perception that the wizard/druid is being clever in how he uses his spells (generally to be encouraged) or is simply good at building strong characters. Most people don't quickly jump to the correct conclusion, that Tier 1s are core 3.5 in easy mode.

[MeeposFire]

Pounce is good but it is also situational. Charging can be prevented by various means and if it is your melee guy will be very sad with his one attack. About the least situational melee method is ToB where standard action strikes are good enough on their own and so you can be effective at nearly anytime (and getting those back after you use them is trivial for most Tob classes).

Pounce is a good way to get mobility and full attacks and it also combos with the large amount of charge support. In fact you can get way more damage than you need. For a barbarian (and anybody who is willing and able to dip one level into barb) can attain it far more easily than any other mobile attacking option which is another reason why you see it so much.

[Doc Roc]

Pounce is good but it is also situational. Charging can be prevented by various means and if it is your melee guy will be very sad with his one attack. About the least situational melee method is ToB where standard action strikes are good enough on their own and so you can be effective at nearly anytime (and getting those back after you use them is trivial for most Tob classes).

Pounce is a good way to get mobility and full attacks and it also combos with the large amount of charge support. In fact you can get way more damage than you need. For a barbarian (and anybody who is willing and able to dip one level into barb) can attain it far more easily than any other mobile attacking option which is another reason why you see it so much.

Arguably the least situational method is actually shadow-pounce.

[The Glyphstone]

That's also arguably the most sourcebook-intensive, isn't it? Unapproachable East is probably in the top 5 for Obscure Splatbooks, since it's 3.0 setting-specific material for an exotic location.

[Eldariel]

That's also arguably the most sourcebook-intensive, isn't it? Unapproachable East is probably in the top 5 for Obscure Splatbooks, since it's 3.0 setting-specific material for an exotic location.

3.25, technically (closer to 3.5, really). It uses 3.5 values for just about everything but was released before 3.5 officially went live. Also, it's one of the most awesome source books ever. Nar Demonbinders, Telflammar Shadowlords (there's Shining South with Crinti Shadow Marauder too, for Shadow Pounce and some creature gets it naturally), Battle Jumps, Runescarred Berserkers and all that good fun.

EDIT: Oh, and relevantly to the thread, Shou Disciples :smallbiggrin:

[Doc Roc]

3.25, technically (closer to 3.5, really). It uses 3.5 values for just about everything but was released before 3.5 officially went live. Also, it's one of the most awesome source books ever. Nar Demonbinders, Telflammar Shadowlords (there's Shining South with Crinti Shadow Marauder too, for Shadow Pounce and some creature gets it naturally), Battle Jumps, Runescarred Berserkers and all that good fun.

EDIT: Oh, and relevantly to the thread, Shou Disciples :smallbiggrin:

Does it have a single -1 PrC?

[Eldariel]

Does it have a single -1 PrC?

Hmm. Master of the Yuirwood isn't amazing but it's actually fairly easy to enter as an Arcane Gish and it offers another option for Medium BAB + Full Casting. It's pretty poor for the Ranger/Druid-entries and has hard requirements (with very specific abilities) so it's probably one, for default entries though (and it costs a feat to enter). Sorc actually uses it pretty well tho; you get Alertness from familiar, so it only costs Track to enter, and gets you a bunch of random abilities with Cha to saves on level 9. Only difficulty is thus getting Survival in class to enter before level billion. Second feat...yeah, I'd say it's probably +0 for Sorcerers. 2 feats for d8 HD, Uncanny Dodges, Cha to saves and medium BAB seems fair enough. I mean, I'm sure many a Sorc-player (for Gishy types, at least) would love to pay a feat and no casting levels for Divine Grace. Sure, it comes late but the whole class is pretty smooth sailing so 'tis all good.

Nentyar Hunter is marked as -1 also but it's really just weird; it's got no real natural entry and it's basically Ranger/Paladin in 5 levels. Dunno about that one. I guess there's the silly Combat Casting + Alertness feat requirements to knock on the fail door.


So, I'd say there's one -1 PrC there. List claims 2; I'd argue that's only for Ranger/Druid/Cleric/Whatever-entry tho.

[The Cat Goddess]

The armor bonus for bracers of armor and robes is an armor bonus-not an enhancement bonus so the robes AC would stack with whatever magic vestment would give which is an enhancement bonus to AC. So a robe with a +5 armor bonus gets imbued by a magic vestment spell by a level 20 caster would now have an AC of +10 (5 armor bonus+ 5 enhancement bonus to that armor bonus). Every character should be able to afford putting some points into an AC bonus.

This is incorrect.

The +5 bonus on Robes/Bracers is an Enhancement bonus to AC. The only "Armor Bonus from an item" is from the raw material.


If pounce is so situational at best, why does everyone doing melee want it and why do all the caster lovers/Dm's seem to hate it?

And Monk is Tier 5, not Tier 6. It has many many many failings and much suckage, but it is still better the CW Samurai.

Edit: The latter is aimed at the top post of this page.

The reason Pounce is considered so valuable is, as has been mentioned, it's pretty-much the only way to get full attacks against distant and/or mobile enemies. Especially enemies with reach.

[Curmudgeon]

3.25, technically (closer to 3.5, really). It uses 3.5 values for just about everything but was released before 3.5 officially went live.
According to the note on page 6 of Unapproachable East, only the skills and feats were updated to 3.5 standards. Other stuff still needs adjustment.

[MeeposFire]

This is incorrect.

The +5 bonus on Robes/Bracers is an Enhancement bonus to AC. The only "Armor Bonus from an item" is from the raw material.



The reason Pounce is considered so valuable is, as has been mentioned, it's pretty-much the only way to get full attacks against distant and/or mobile enemies. Especially enemies with reach.

You are incorrect look at the description of bracers of armor for instance

"Bracers of Armor

These items appear to be wrist or arm guards. They surround the wearer with an invisible but tangible field of force, granting him an armor bonus of +1 to +8, just as though he were wearing armor. Both bracers must be worn for the magic to be effective."

Notice it says armor bonus not enhancement bonus unlike for instance the amulet of natural armor

"Amulet of Natural Armor

This amulet, usually crafted from bone or beast scales, toughens the wearer’s body and flesh, giving him an enhancement bonus to his natural armor bonus of from +1 to +5, depending on the kind of amulet."

Also the bracers use mage armor for its bonus so you can not make an argument that the spell uses enhancement as mage armor is also just armor.

So you can totally add an enhancement bonus to the robe but only through the magic vestment spell or similar ability.


Also pounce is only one way of getting mobility and full attacks (or near full attacks or something equivalent to full attacks). For instance shadow pouncing allows for moving and full attacks. As does using various swift action moves such as travel devotion or sudden leap. Maneuvers can be used to good effect when full attacks are out. Pounce is effective but it is limited in every way by the limitations of charging. While those limitations are not game enders by any means they are still limitations. It is also easier to get than most of this other stuff so it is also common, and it has synergy with all the great charge related stuff out there.

[Greenish]

That is the true failing, that even if the monk survives nobody cares.Fair enough.

The +5 bonus on Robes/Bracers is an Enhancement bonus to AC. The only "Armor Bonus from an item" is from the raw material.No, Bracers of Armour give "armor bonus of +1 to +8, just as though he were wearing armor". Enhancement bonus for armour stacks with that.

[Tvtyrant]

Easiest fix for the monk: Take ten levels of Thrall of Jubilex and then have your new forms make unarmed strikes.

[Greenish]

Easiest fix for the monk: Take ten levels of Thrall of Jubilex and then have your new forms make unarmed strikes.I should think Tashatalora is easier. Also, awesome.

[Eldariel]

According to the note on page 6 of Unapproachable East, only the skills and feats were updated to 3.5 standards. Other stuff still needs adjustment.

Yeah; luckily enough, that's mostly few spells by different names (it refers to Scorcher instead of Scorching Ray, as an example). Only mechanical traits that are in 3.0 form are the DR of the monsters, far as I recall. Luckily only few of them have any and I think all the weapon bonus-based ones are /+1 which pretty directly converts into /Magic.

[NoldorForce]

No, Bracers of Armour give "armor bonus of +1 to +8, just as though he were wearing armor". Enhancement bonus for armour stacks with that.Properly, Magic Vestment and the like grant an enhancement bonus to an armor bonus to AC. The spell itself doesn't quite come out and say it, but it only applies to an object whose own purpose is to grant an armor bonus to AC; the rest is implicit from there. It's also clear from the definition of an enhancement bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#enhancementBonus) that when it's modifying armor or a shield its bonus only applies within the bounds of that object:
Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack.Bolding mine. So casting Magic Vestment on a set of robes treated as "armor"* would give it some enhancement bonus (+X) to its existing armor bonus to AC (+0), for a total armor bonus to AC of X+0 = X. Meanwhile the Bracers of Armor* would grant some other armor bonus to AC (+Y); with two bonuses of the same type (armor) we'd choose the higher bonus and be done with it.

*As noted earlier, treating robes or the like as "armor" to get a boost from Magic Vestment is actually a rather poor idea for monks. It voids that whole AC Bonus class feature, recall? This is why Bracers are a better idea for monks, because they are (by default) not treated as armor.

[Coidzor]

So casting Magic Vestment on a set of robes treated as "armor"* would give it some enhancement bonus (+X) to its existing armor bonus to AC (+0), for a total armor bonus to AC of X+0 = X. Meanwhile the Bracers of Armor* would grant some other armor bonus to AC (+Y); with two bonuses of the same type (armor) we'd choose the higher bonus and be done with it.

No, you're not stacking things properly, the enhancement bonus does not replace the armor bonus of the piece of equipment which is what bracers of armor and mundane armor provide but enhances it. You're getting an armor bonus of +X from bracers of armor magic item property and then you're casting a spell that gives an enhancement bonus of +Y to armor class on it so that you'd have X+Y to AC from that particular item and armor combination. Not just Y alone.

Also you seem to be thinking that an armor bonus is an enhancement bonus when it's explicitly stated to be an armor bonus.


As noted earlier, treating robes or the like as "armor" to get a boost from Magic Vestment is actually a rather poor idea for monks. It voids that whole AC Bonus class feature, recall? This is why Bracers are a better idea for monks, because they are (by default) not treated as armor.

Only if the DM really wants it that way for whatever reason, since it's not going to make clothing into armor without the DM explicitly stating that to be the case, all the magical property does is cause whatever item to start conveying an armor bonus. If you make it so that anything that confers an armor bonus is now armor then monks also couldn't wear bracers of armor (or magic bracers to begin with if you wanna get really nitpicky or magical boots that could be construed as armored and so on and so forth)

[RaginChangeling]

Properly, Magic Vestment and the like grant an enhancement bonus to an armor bonus to AC. The spell itself doesn't quite come out and say it, but it only applies to an object whose own purpose is to grant an armor bonus to AC; the rest is implicit from there. It's also clear from the definition of an enhancement bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#enhancementBonus) that when it's modifying armor or a shield its bonus only applies within the bounds of that object:Bolding mine. So casting Magic Vestment on a set of robes treated as "armor"* would give it some enhancement bonus (+X) to its existing armor bonus to AC (+0), for a total armor bonus to AC of X+0 = X. Meanwhile the Bracers of Armor* would grant some other armor bonus to AC (+Y); with two bonuses of the same type (armor) we'd choose the higher bonus and be done with it.

*As noted earlier, treating robes or the like as "armor" to get a boost from Magic Vestment is actually a rather poor idea for monks. It voids that whole AC Bonus class feature, recall? This is why Bracers are a better idea for monks, because they are (by default) not treated as armor.

The problem with your argument is that an Amulet of Natural Armor, which specifically gives an enhancement bonus to natural armor, stacks with natural armor gained through race or class features. So Magic Vestments should stack with the Bracers.

The part you quote is only saying you cannot just buy a Headband of Intellect +2, A robe of Intellect +2 and Boots of Intellect +2 and have them grant a +6 enhancement bonus to intelligence. But dis-similar bonuses, ie. Armor and Enhancement bonus to Armor, do stack.

[Eldariel]

I suggest you don't waste your time arguing that. The discussion has been had before plenty of times and sufficient to say, it's ambiguous; there are points for both sides. E.g. Magic Vestment specifies a piece of equipment (Armor or Shield specifically) as its target and it grants that piece the enhancement bonus. It basically boils down to whether Enhancement Bonus to Armor is applied to your AC or to the AC-bonus granted by the equipment. And yes, it's ambiguous; don't bother trying to cut the Gordian knot, that's what DMs and RAI are for.

[Curmudgeon]

Properly, Magic Vestment and the like grant an enhancement bonus to an armor bonus to AC. The spell itself doesn't quite come out and say it, but it only applies to an object whose own purpose is to grant an armor bonus to AC; the rest is implicit from there. It's also clear from the definition of an enhancement bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#enhancementBonus) that when it's modifying armor or a shield its bonus only applies within the bounds of that object:Bolding mine.
So just follow the instructions (Magic Item Compendium, page 234) and get an armor bonus on your robe.

*As noted earlier, treating robes or the like as "armor" to get a boost from Magic Vestment is actually a rather poor idea for monks. It voids that whole AC Bonus class feature, recall? This is why Bracers are a better idea for monks, because they are (by default) not treated as armor. No, Bracers of Armor aren't a better idea (as long as you avoid the silly recategorization of robes as armor). Robes (Body slot items) and bracers (Arms slot items) have exactly the same cost and crafting requirements, so they're equal on that merit. But Magic Vestment will add an enhancement bonus on top of a robe, and there's no equivalent spell to do the same thing for bracers.

[Coidzor]

I suggest you don't waste your time arguing that. The discussion has been had before plenty of times and sufficient to say, it's ambiguous; there are points for both sides. E.g. Magic Vestment specifies a piece of equipment (Armor or Shield specifically) as its target and it grants that piece the enhancement bonus. It basically boils down to whether Enhancement Bonus to Armor is applied to your AC or to the AC-bonus granted by the equipment. And yes, it's ambiguous; don't bother trying to cut the Gordian knot, that's what DMs and RAI are for.

How is that ambiguous? :smallconfused: Even if you apply it to AC separately it's an enhancement bonus and an armor bonus.

[Eldariel]

How is that ambiguous? :smallconfused: Even if you apply it to AC separately it's an enhancement bonus and an armor bonus.

If it enhances armor bonus of the item, then the item's AC bonus is applied as a whole to the player's AC and thus the only relevant question is the composite AC bonus of the item; if the enhancement bonus is applied to the creature, then the highest enhancement and highest non-enhancement armor applies.

[MeeposFire]

Just to be clear magic vestment does not work with bracers but it does work with robes.

[Doc Roc]

Just to be clear magic vestment does not work with bracers but it does work with robes.

Just to make it clear, jacking your AC isn't going to save you from the balor's SLAs. It's pronounced slay for a reason.

[MeeposFire]

Just to make it clear, jacking your AC isn't going to save you from the balor's SLAs. It's pronounced slay for a reason.

Where did the balor come from? A full bab creature with good str should have no trouble hitting anything with a touch attack even if the touch AC is good but what does that have to do with this?

[Doc Roc]

Where did the balor come from? A full bab creature with good str should have no trouble hitting anything with a touch attack even if the touch AC is good but what does that have to do with this?

The relevance is that the AC of a monk does not matter. This entire digression, all this hairsplitting, it doesn't help monk one lick against one of the iconic evils in the game.

[MeeposFire]

The relevance is that the AC of a monk does not matter. This entire digression, all this hairsplitting, it doesn't help monk one lick against one of the iconic evils in the game.

Oh but it is so much more interesting than talking about the monk's lack of ability:smallwink:.

[Doc Roc]

Oh but it is so much more interesting than talking about the monk's lack of ability:smallwink:.

I've seen a couple of hilarious send-ups of Monk's weaknesses. Fistbeard Beardfist stories, for example.

[MeeposFire]

Attack of the killer hair!

[Tvtyrant]

Just to make it clear, jacking your AC isn't going to save you from the balor's SLAs. It's pronounced slay for a reason.

Ba-da-bump psh! Though all drum rolls aside the Monk does have all good saves.

[NoldorForce]

I had some messy multi-reply prepared before realizing most of it was moot, given both what Curmudgeon said and this little gem:
An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell.

[TOZ]

Ba-da-bump psh! Though all drum rolls aside the Monk does have all good saves.

BUt does he have to Dex, Con, and Wis to back them up? :smalltongue:

[Tvtyrant]

BUt does he have to Dex, Con, and Wis to back them up? :smalltongue:

Let the MADdening begin!

[Doc Roc]

Let the MADdening begin!

Oh it started long ago.....

[olentu]

I had some messy multi-reply prepared before realizing most of it was moot, given both what Curmudgeon said and this little gem:

It is true that he has brought up the fact that any discussion about magic vestment on non-armor relies completely on the question of just what is the definition of an outfit of regular clothing. Is regular clothing a robe body slot wondrous item that has been enchanted to the maximum possible armor bonus or is it not. Without either a source that answers this question or an agreement on what the hypothetical DM fiat for this question will be the discussion can probably not continue very well as people would likely be talking past each other.

[Coidzor]

If it enhances armor bonus of the item, then the item's AC bonus is applied as a whole to the player's AC and thus the only relevant question is the composite AC bonus of the item; if the enhancement bonus is applied to the creature, then the highest enhancement and highest non-enhancement armor applies.

...Where would you be getting a general enhancement bonus to AC other than this hypothetical reading of the interaction of magic vestments' interaction with this kind of item? :smallconfused:

[NoldorForce]

...Where would you be getting a general enhancement bonus to AC other than this hypothetical reading of the interaction of magic vestments' interaction with this kind of item? :smallconfused:Thicken Skin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/thickenSkin.htm), of course. Cordell et al. didn't intend it, but that's how it's written.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Let the MADdening begin!

There are three things you can do to reduce/avoid Monk MADness.
1: Get the feat Kung Fu Genius. Int instead of Wis.
2: Play a Swordsage. (Obvious solution is obvious.)
3: Only dip/don't play monk.

(I usually end up choosing option 3. :smalltongue:)

[Boci]

1: Get the feat Kung Fu Genius. Int instead of Wis.

This one doesn't help that much. Monks need strength, dexterity, constitution and wisdom, so all the feat does swap int for wisdom, giving you a couple more skill points in return for a lower will save.

Weapon finesse is more helpful, but then your damage output takes a hit and you are not as good at using special combat actions.

[Curmudgeon]

This one doesn't help that much. Monks need strength, dexterity, constitution and wisdom, so all the feat does swap int for wisdom, giving you a couple more skill points in return for a lower will save.
And, of course, Kung Fu Genius costs you a feat. :smallbiggrin:

There are only two Monk abilities that are based on WIS anyway: AC Bonus and Quivering Palm. I wouldn't recommend Kung Fu Genius unless you're going to increase that number somehow. One way is with the Invisible Fist ACF: at level 9 your use of Blink is tied to your WIS modifier.

[Greenish]

There are only two Monk abilities that are based on WIS anyway: AC Bonus and Quivering Palm.And Stunning Fist, if you take it. It's practically a class feature, seeing how few other classes would want to grab it.

One way is with the Invisible Blade ACF: at level 9 your use of Blink is tied to your WIS modifier.Fist.

[Curmudgeon]

And Stunning Fist, if you take it. It's practically a class feature, seeing how few other classes would want to grab it.
The problem there is that Kung Fu Genius only applies to actual Monk special abilities, not optional general feats.

[Greenish]

The problem there is that Kung Fu Genius only applies to actual Monk special abilities, not optional general feats.Ah, right. I was thinking out of context, for you make a good argument for not focusing on wisdom as a monk.

[Popertop]

honestly most monk builds I've seen that are remotely successful have
Str > Con > Wis > Dex

[Metahuman1]

If TOB feat's are allowed, you can take the one feat that let's shadow hand school weapons use your Dex in place of Str for damage. Combine that with a couple of low impact flaws and weapons Finesse, and Str is now a Dump.

Stunning Fist also requires Wis doesn't it? Given that you'll be using that a lot if you don't have a way to move and full attack, you want it to stick. Pain touch and Pharaoh's Fist and Ability Focus also help get most out of that.

(Paint Touch: Complete Warrior. Keeps him down to one action the round after the stunning wears off.

Pharaoh's Fist: Sand Storm, Adjacent enemy's also get stunned, so it gives you just a tiny bit of crowd Control.

Ability Focus: Monster Manual. +2 too the save DC of Stunning fist. Not a big pick me up, but you need all the help you can get.k)

[Cog]

Shadow Blade (the ToB feat) is pretty useless without any Shadow Hand stances to back it up and even to qualify for it. Also, it adds to Str instead of replacing it, so you can't dump Str too far.

[MeeposFire]

You have to be in a SH stance in order to use it at all. Shadow blade is also really expensive for a straight monk as you need to spend a feat on martial maneuver, one for martial stance, and then another for the feat itself. If you are going this route you need weapon finesse since damage is only useful if you hit (so 4 feats) means you spend over half your feats to get damage and attack bonus from a defense stat. Not worth it. You can get far more by spending those feats on size bonuses.

[Nerocite]

"No matter how strong, an unarmed fighter is no more than a fool."

Thank you, MtG.

[Koury]

You have to be in a SH stance in order to use it at all. Shadow blade is also really expensive for a straight monk as you need to spend a feat on martial maneuver, one for martial stance, and then another for the feat itself. If you are going this route you need weapon finesse since damage is only useful if you hit (so 4 feats) means you spend over half your feats to get damage and attack bonus from a defense stat. Not worth it. You can get far more by spending those feats on size bonuses.

You can always lower the feat cost via items. I don't now of the top of my head if you can get a stance granting item, but you can definatly get around Martial Study.

[true_shinken]

The problem there is that Kung Fu Genius only applies to actual Monk special abilities, not optional general feats.

I believe Carmendine Monk specifically applies to Stunning Fist, though.

[Curmudgeon]

I believe Carmendine Monk specifically applies to Stunning Fist, though.
Yes, that feat has an explicit inclusion of Stunning Fist.

[No brains]

I believe Carmendine Monk specifically applies to Stunning Fist, though.

Where might I find this Carmendine monk?

[The Cat Goddess]

Where might I find this Carmendine monk?

Google-Fu says: Champions of Valor.

[Eldariel]

Where might I find this Carmendine monk?

Champions of Valor.