pathfinder monk

[hivedragon]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk
Is the pathfinder monk and it's many variations changed what tier the monk belongs to? Also, looking for optimization advice for a pathfinder monk.

[subject42]

I'm sure a lot of people will disagree, but from what I've seen in my games, the Monk has turned into a combat maneuver machine versus humanoid opponents, provided you build around maneuvers instead of "all punches all the time".

Combined with flurry at full BAB, a 6th level monk can trip trip his opponent, disarm him, literally punch him out straight out of his armor, then use Ki for an extra attack to stunning fist him stupid for everybody else.

[MeeposFire]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk
Is the pathfinder monk and it's many variations changed what tier the monk belongs to? Also, looking for optimization advice for a pathfinder monk.

Tierwise not really. It still has many of the same problems. It does have a few fun additions though (more resource management, more cool powers, better ability to do combat maneuvers). But the big problems were not addressed (some things were buffed, some things nerfed, and flurry is still terrible).

[Curious]

Actually, with a few of the APG options, I think you could construct a monk that is actually viable. Using a few different archetypes, you can construct a monk that regains ki from drinking (as a swift action), killing opponents, and can then use that ki to gain an extra three standard actions. I tried it out in playtest, and it kicked ass against a level + 1 CR. In an actual campaign, dunno how it would turn out though. This is also assuming your DM allows you to cherry-pick archetype features.

[Zeikstraal]

If you can choose a couple abbilities from different Archetypes, you basically get the same problem with 3.5. Wiz5/Awesome2/superman3 etc. Pathfinder is doing a good job to get rid of that problem, don't bring it up again!!:smallbiggrin:

I had a lot of fun with the PF Monk. The damage is great thanks to flurry. Wich isn't flurry of misses anymore. I had a 26 Str at lvl 12 I thought. So you will be hitting most of the times. Just make sure you make good use of your stunning fist, then add Medusa Wrath for the extra Attack, the Ki Attack and Probably Haste. Maybe even the Speed Enhancement on your Amulet of Mighty Fists. Thats 10 attacks, with most of them at a good BAB. I thought I did 2d8+23 damage.

And when you play a Monk always get Permanent Greater Magic Fang +5.

The AC wasnt that bad either. +2 Dex, +6 Wis, +3 Ac Bonus, +1 Dodge, +6 Bracers, +3 ring, +3 Amulet ,thats 34+ Mage Armor makes it 38. And you always have a ki AC boost when things get nasty.

Its not as good as a Wizard, and he will never be. But he's a good Melee class.

[Eldariel]

Pathfinder Monk is a notable step up from the Core Monk. First, it's almost as good as Fighter in the Combat Maneuver gimmick people like to view Monk in. Of course, since Combat Maneuvers got nerfed hard, that's not all that helpful. Still, now they're at least doable.

Thanks to Ki Pool, Monk can make more respectable attack runs. Monk abilities from higher levels are also relevant since they're no longer once per day (or once per week) wonders. Notably Abundant Step is now a useful class feature, and Quivering Palm got the idiotic "once per week" limitation lifted.


However, a whole slew of issues still remain:
- Can't move and full attack, making the supposed "skirmisher"-role impossible. Also simply negates majority of their damage on many rounds.
- Still is MAD as all hell. This hasn't been decreased at all whatsoever. Core PF is stupid enough not to even offer any options to mitigate this. Luckily the usual 3.5 suspects still exist.
- Damage dice isn't that useful anymore since Improved Natural Attack doesn't work with it. Removes the one thing Monks had going on for them. Meh. Guess you can still get enlarged :smallsigh:

[Kilbourne]

If you want to kill everything, forever, then you should pick up the Zen Archer archetype from the APG, and boost your Wisdom like crazy, because with that archetype it will eventually determine both your to-hit and damage with bows. Oh, and you can make AoO's with your bow, too.

Zen Archer turns your monk from MAD into ultra-SAD so fast it'll make you very, uh... glad.

[TroubleBrewing]

SAD because he only needs Wisdom and Dex and Con now, instead of needing Str, Wis, Dex, and Con? :smallconfused:

[ericgrau]

It boosts their combat maneuver shtick so there's even more reason to focus on it. While it seems PF nerfed combat maneuvers at first glance, they actually greatly reduced size modifiers which makes combat maneuvers even more viable in a wider variety of campaigns. They also improved the combat maneuver feats overall, even though they got split into 2 feats each.

Whether you use a combat maneuver, extra attacks, stun and/or something else, you need something to make up for your lack of AC and damage. Stunning fist also got a good boost there in its ability to disable and prevent damage to yourself and the party.

It seems like early on you'll have trouble overcoming monsters' dex boosted CMD, but later on you'll be optimized for it and they won't, nor benefit much from size, so you'll be able to use maneuvers on everything and mop the floor pretty hard with prone, disarmed, grappled, stunned, staggered and blind foes who have trouble doing much. And you can machine gun these conditions b/c you get one attempt per flurry attack.

[Greenish]

If you can choose a couple abbilities from different Archetypes, you basically get the same problem with 3.5. Wiz5/Awesome2/superman3 etc. Pathfinder is doing a good job to get rid of that problem, don't bring it up again!!:smallbiggrin:Multiclassing is a problem now? :smallamused:

[Eldariel]

It boosts their combat maneuver shtick so there's even more reason to focus on it. While it seems PF nerfed combat maneuvers at first glance, they actually greatly reduced size modifiers which makes combat maneuvers even more viable in a wider variety of campaigns. They also improved the combat maneuver feats overall, even though they got split into 2 feats each.

Well. Large size is +1 now, but since the base DC is basically +5 and the size restriction of not being able to affect opponents more than 1 category larger than you hasn't been lifted, it's still net negative. You can still try maneuvers on large opponents but they'll be harder than they used to be, and the ones on medium or small ones will as well. The size bonus decrease for larger sizes mostly has defensive utility.

And the combat maneuver feats...it depends. Tripping is practically the same it used to be (you get an Attack of Opportunity instead of a free attack on a successful trip; still otherwise the "No AoO, +4, free attack" deal) but in two feats instead of one. Bull Rush, Overrun and Sunder are slightly better but still generally not worth bothering about (aside from Hydras in case of Sunder, and even then, the body generally dies faster). Grapple is weaker than it used to be as you can't use your attack actions to perform Grapple-maneuvers. And Disarm is about the same as it used to be.


So yeah, most of the feats were improved but the ones that really were typical for Monk (due to being Monk bonus feats; Improved Grapple, Improved Disarm and Improved Trip) didn't get significant boosts.

[Hiro Protagonest]

SAD because he only needs Wisdom and Dex and Con now, instead of needing Str, Wis, Dex, and Con? :smallconfused:

If he never sees melee, he doesn't even need Con. And a good Dex score is just an added benefit.

[El Dorado]

If you want to kill everything, forever, then you should pick up the Zen Archer archetype from the APG, and boost your Wisdom like crazy, because with that archetype it will eventually determine both your to-hit and damage with bows. Oh, and you can make AoO's with your bow, too.

Zen Archer turns your monk from MAD into ultra-SAD so fast it'll make you very, uh... glad.

+1. One the players in my group is running a zen archer. Perfect Strike + Flurry at 1st level makes for some good ranged damage. Only two things holding him back right now are 1) no strength bows in the game (DM fiat) and 2) he took wizard as his 2nd level and didn't pick up Gravity Bow (I think he was worried about it being *too* good and thereby cheesing off the DM).

[Eldariel]

If he never sees melee, he doesn't even need Con. And a good Dex score is just an added benefit.

Ranged attacks (Javelins, Longbows, Rock Hurling, various spine-shooting creatures), ranged damage spells, breath weapons, Power Words, wtf. Seriously? Have we reached the point where we think you can only deal damage in melee?

[Kilbourne]

Well, considering the PF Zen Archer monk gets Wis for his attack and AC, I don't see what the problem is.

Rather than being Str>Con>Dex>Wis focused, he is now Wis>Con>Dex focused, just like a Wizard is Int>Con>Dex

[ericgrau]

Well. Large size is +1 now, but since the base DC is basically +5 and the size restriction of not being able to affect opponents more than 1 category larger than you hasn't been lifted, it's still net negative. You can still try maneuvers on large opponents but they'll be harder than they used to be, and the ones on medium or small ones will as well. The size bonus decrease for larger sizes mostly has defensive utility.

And the combat maneuver feats...it depends. Tripping is practically the same it used to be (you get an Attack of Opportunity instead of a free attack on a successful trip; still otherwise the "No AoO, +4, free attack" deal) but in two feats instead of one. Bull Rush, Overrun and Sunder are slightly better but still generally not worth bothering about (aside from Hydras in case of Sunder, and even then, the body generally dies faster). Grapple is weaker than it used to be as you can't use your attack actions to perform Grapple-maneuvers. And Disarm is about the same as it used to be.


So yeah, most of the feats were improved but the ones that really were typical for Monk (due to being Monk bonus feats; Improved Grapple, Improved Disarm and Improved Trip) didn't get significant boosts.
+5? What do all the high strength monsters now have a 20 dex as well? Normally monsters have 10s + racial bonuses for stats and those with high strength and size tend to have low dex. Really the size modifier was the main thing they had going. Potions of enlarge person can extend your targets up to huge size if needed. I'm actually playing a PF disarmer right now and was surprised to find foes with a CMD in the low 20's against my CMB in the high teens. Even my secondary attack was working. Plus PF gives multiple huge boosts, to disarm at the very least. If I have improved unarmed strike there's no penalty to disarming unarmed which means I can grab the enemy weapon without penalty. Or with greater disarm I can toss a weapon 15 feet away from the foe, making it quite difficult for him to get it again. All the feats seem to give more than before like that, albeit at the cost of 2 feats. I just double checked greater trip and sure enough it says "Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity." So all your allies get a hit on him too.

I've also run the numbers on the hydra before and even without the improved sunder feat you're far better off going for the heads, provided that you have a party member with fireball or such to cauterize them. Sure he gets an attack of opportunity but he has a lousy attack bonus and so-so damage on only 1 hit. In fact this infamous under CR'ed monster is over CR'ed if you simply follow this tactic as recommended in the MM (or from a knowledge(arcana) check).

[Gnaeus]

+5? What do all the high strength monsters now have a 20 dex as well? Normally monsters have 10s + racial bonuses for stats and those with high strength and size tend to have low dex. Really the size modifier was the main thing they had going. Potions of enlarge person can extend your targets up to huge size if needed. I'm actually playing a PF disarmer right now and was surprised to find foes with a CMD in the low 20's against my CMB in the high teens.

That would be surprising. A quick check of CR 13 monsters shows only one creature (The Ghaele) with a CMB in the low 20s, with most in the 36-40 range. When building ECL 11 characters for competitive tourney play I found that most of the 11-15 critters in the beastiary had a significant CMD advantage over me. From what I have seen, combat maneuvers against non-humanoids is mostly a waste of time, unless you are packing a significant advantage in terms of buffs.

Edit: A quick check of the CR 19s shows an average between 50 and 60, with only a couple in the low 40s.

[ericgrau]

Probably because I wasn't fighting CR 13 monsters and if I was my CMB would be a lot higher. Level 8, 20 high stat, and +4 feat is already a +17.

[Starbuck_II]

+5? What do all the high strength monsters now have a 20 dex as well?


Trolls just got better: they have good Dex and Str.

[Gnaeus]

Probably because I wasn't fighting CR 13 monsters and if I was my CMB would be a lot higher.

OK. When you have played that character at high levels, get back to us. It looks to me like CMD scales up a LOT faster than CMB is likely to. If you want a character whose main trick becomes worthless at mid levels, by all means, combat maneuvers are awesome.

[ericgrau]

Let's see, how about I convert some CR 13 modifiers from the MM to CMD (adjusting for size and dex, EDIT: and remembering to add the +10): 31, 34, 36, 28, 42, 34, 40, 33, 35
average: 35. But by the time a party of 4 fights 4 of those (EL 17) they'll be 15th level with a CMB of at least +25, probably 27 with a magic item.

Ah, just got the numbers from the PF SRD: 34,36,36,36,35,42,39,31,31,38,33,40,37,37,34,34,39 , 47, 38, 36, 38, 37. Average 37. So it's about a 50:50 shot.

EDIT: Fixed.

[subject42]

Let's see, how about I convert some CR 13 modifiers from the MM to CMD (adjusting for size and dex): 21, 24, 26, 18, 32, 24, 30, 23, 25
average: 25. But by the time a party of 4 fights 4 of those (EL 17) they'll be 15th level with a CMB of at least +25, if not a little higher from a magic item. So... things favor CMB more at higher levels.

Are you using the 3.5 MM or the PF Beastiary for those averages? PF changed some base stats around here and there in its monsters.

[ericgrau]

Fixed. It seems like it becomes a 50:50 shot by level 15. Not bad considering how good success is now though. I mean weaponed enemies need to withdraw and pick up their weapon before they can fight again, which takes a very long time. Tripped enemies provoke an attack from all allies and get their -4's, etc. Not familiar with what PF did to grapple.

When converting from the d20 SRD for the first list of numbers I did notice that the modifier went way down in most cases though. Probably 4-5 on average. OTOH an enlarge person at that level would provide a +5 in D&D and only a +2 in PF. So really the main difference is all the extra special effects you get in PF from the 2nd feat. Hmm, maybe I should reconsider core trippers against high level non-humanoids then. Just needs a permanent enlarge effect that's all.

[Doc Roc]

Ranged attacks (Javelins, Longbows, Rock Hurling, various spine-shooting creatures), ranged damage spells, breath weapons, Power Words, wtf. Seriously? Have we reached the point where we think you can only deal damage in melee?

Hush now, don't cry. Remember, in the grim future, there are only swords.

[Eldariel]

+5? What do all the high strength monsters now have a 20 dex as well? Normally monsters have 10s + racial bonuses for stats and those with high strength and size tend to have low dex. Really the size modifier was the main thing they had going. Potions of enlarge person can extend your targets up to huge size if needed. I'm actually playing a PF disarmer right now and was surprised to find foes with a CMD in the low 20's against my CMB in the high teens. Even my secondary attack was working. Plus PF gives multiple huge boosts, to disarm at the very least. If I have improved unarmed strike there's no penalty to disarming unarmed which means I can grab the enemy weapon without penalty. Or with greater disarm I can toss a weapon 15 feet away from the foe, making it quite difficult for him to get it again. All the feats seem to give more than before like that, albeit at the cost of 2 feats. I just double checked greater trip and sure enough it says "Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity." So all your allies get a hit on him too.

On the other hand, if you don't have AoOs left you can't take one on the tripped target. Regarding the +5, I was thinking of the beta values where the base was 15 and Dex wasn't added to the CMD; this is actually much more workable. Touché.


I've also run the numbers on the hydra before and even without the improved sunder feat you're far better off going for the heads, provided that you have a party member with fireball or such to cauterize them. Sure he gets an attack of opportunity but he has a lousy attack bonus and so-so damage on only 1 hit. In fact this infamous under CR'ed monster is over CR'ed if you simply follow this tactic as recommended in the MM (or from a knowledge(arcana) check).

Well, in 3.5, Hydras get an AoO with each of their heads. It's not just 1 AoO, it's 1 AoO per head you provoke; so like 5-12. That's actually quite painful. They can also attack once with each as a standard action or in a charge, which is why they're way more scary than most most brawlers; they are actually a threat even if you make them move.

[ericgrau]

A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity.
They get to use all their heads via combat reflexes, i.e. I don't think it means what you think it means. Even if it did they still wouldn't have any heads left for your 2 sundering allies, b/c it says it gets all its heads via combat reflexes, not that it gets all its heads and oh combat reflexes multiplies that too. i.e., either the ability works like combat reflexes and they get 5 AoOs per round, or it is some way more funky effect to replace normal combat reflexes where they use all 5 at once, but then don't have any left for later if they do. But even with that super liberal interpretation it's not "they get all their heads for each attack of opportunity and they have combat reflexes so they get even more later."

[Prime32]

What I don't understand is why they can treat themselves as having full BAB for everything except prerequisites. Why not just give them full BAB? :smallconfused:

[Tael]

What I don't understand is why they can treat themselves as having full BAB for everything except prerequisites. Why not just give them full BAB? :smallconfused:

Because then all of the pathfinder fanatics would say "WHAT?!? Monk has full-BAB?? So broken!!"

[Hiro Protagonest]

Because then all of the pathfinder fanatics would say "WHAT?!? Monk has full-BAB?? So broken!!"

Because everyone who plays low-op games would think anyone who plays a full-BAB monk is a munchkin.

[Tael]

Because everyone who plays low-op games would think anyone who plays a full-BAB monk is a munchkin.

Not a munchkin per say, but my unfortunate experience is that of severe objection to the idea of buffing monks up to full BAB. (Well, and Std. Action flurries, but mostly Full BAB.)

With out the hyperbole though, I do actually believe that that was the reason they didn't give the monk full BAB. Because people would think it was too strong.

[Ravens_cry]

I had a friend who played a dwarven monk in Pathfinder who was an absolute beast at grappling. Damage was pretty good too, but his shining moment, in my mind, was him grappling a drake, hog-tying it, then keelhauling it under the boat until it drowned. He did have to chug a whole bunch of gold in potions every fight though.
Still, he was an enjoyable character to play with.

[Grommen]

I believe that greater grapple grants a second grapple attempt in the same turn. So they can grapple, and then pin in the same round, most monsters once pinned will have to roll quite high with the -5 and the lack of DEX to break free.

I've also noticed that wile the rules say it, it's not generally understood (due to some epic bad wording on their part) that weapons, and anything else that normally adds to your attack bonus is included in the CMB. I'll also always consider unarmed attacks very natural. RAW can bite me.

Even with the really high CMD's on monsters (consider quite a few of them are 4+ legged) getting a 50/50 chance, with two chances per turn. That is a %100 chance.

Far as the monks go. I would say they are considerably better off than they were. They don't get spells so they will suffer the same as the rest of the "have not" classes. That of coarse varies greatly between games from what I can tell. However they have good saves all around, and mostly a full BAB(Just always flurry), and a feat or class buff each level.

Looks good on paper.

Dip in a few of your favorite classes and they should be fine in an average game.

[jmelesky]

What I don't understand is why they can treat themselves as having full BAB for everything except prerequisites. Why not just give them full BAB? :smallconfused:

Because PF explicitly tied BAB to HD. So if you have a d6 HD, you have 1/2 BAB, d8 3/4, d10 (and d12) full. That correspondence is throughout the character classes, and also used in the mechanics for creating monsters.

And, presumably, they didn't want to give Monks a d10 HD.

So they tried to make everything less arbitrary and more coherent, then tried to address some Monk shortcomings, which introduced something which feels a bit arbitrary.

[Ravens_cry]

Well, think of it this way, their skill comes from super special awesome dojo training (class feature) and not from a life of in the field, hard won knowledge (Full BAB). Yeah, it's weird and a bit arbitrary, but hey, they still get full BAB for almost all things.

[TOZ]

I believe that greater grapple grants a second grapple attempt in the same turn. So they can grapple, and then pin in the same round, most monsters once pinned will have to roll quite high with the -5 and the lack of DEX to break free.

If you're talking about what I think you are, you cannot grapple and pin in the same round. Greater Grapple lets you maintain a grapple with a move action. Attempting to pin is a standard action. So in the first round, you spend a standard action to grapple, leaving you a move action left. You do not need to maintain the grapple until the next round, but you do not have a standard action to pin in the first round.

[Prime32]

Even with the really high CMD's on monsters (consider quite a few of them are 4+ legged) getting a 50/50 chance, with two chances per turn. That is a %100 chance.That is not how probability works. Your second attempt does not "remember" your first attempt and adjust the result.

Two 50% chances where only one must succeed equals a 75% chance.
There are four possible results with equal probability:

Success+Success
Success+Fail
Fail+Success
Fail+Fail

3 out of the four count as a success, so the odds are 75%.

[Doc Roc]

That is not how probability works. Your second attempt does not "remember" your first attempt and adjust the result.

Two 50% chances where only one must succeed equals a 75% chance.

Thank you. I got a headache each time.

[ericgrau]

On average 2 50:50 chances still means an average of 1 success per round. 75% is the chance of getting either 1 or 2 successes. 25% of the time you get 2 successes hence even by that calculation method it's still an average of 1 per round. Though remember the pathfinder monk has 3+ attacks starting at level 6. And at level 5 you're looking at CMDs of 15-20 (again assuming 4x CR 3 = EL 7) against a CMB of around 10+feats, so up to 14. Much higher than 50:50 when you have only 2 attacks.

In the case of trip considering how much damage you'll still deal even during the round of the trip that seems very much worth it. Just 1 ally is enough to be equal on immediate damage even before the future bonus of knocking the enemy prone.

As for the "full BAB" thing: There was a time back in pathfinder alpha that fighters and monks and so on got huge bonuses to everything. Presumably the game broke under all the huge changes they made since now PF isn't much different from 3.5. They did still make a bunch of interesting minor changes and nerfed some of the most popular spells though.

[Grommen]

If you're talking about what I think you are, you cannot grapple and pin in the same round. Greater Grapple lets you maintain a grapple with a move action. Attempting to pin is a standard action. So in the first round, you spend a standard action to grapple, leaving you a move action left. You do not need to maintain the grapple until the next round, but you do not have a standard action to pin in the first round.

After re-reading the feat, I can see how you arrived at this conclusion. I'm interpreting it a bit different, assuming that the attacker grappled his target, and the attacker has a second attack (hence the +6 BAB requirement) they then choose to make a Full attack, thus granting the second grapple check to pin. Makes sense to me, though I'm not always in the majority around here. In any case, on the second round we both agree, so least we got that.

I would assume one could not run their max distance, jump into the air, land on top of their foe, grab them and then perform a figure 4 leg lock. (though that would be kool to see).

[DeMouse]

basic monk hasn't changed in tier at all IMHO.

Zen Archer however is a tier 1 character for sure.

Dump your ki pool into one flurry and you will kill almost anything in one round.

[TOZ]

After re-reading the feat, I can see how you arrived at this conclusion. I'm interpreting it a bit different, assuming that the attacker grappled his target, and the attacker has a second attack (hence the +6 BAB requirement) they then choose to make a Full attack, thus granting the second grapple check to pin. Makes sense to me, though I'm not always in the majority around here. In any case, on the second round we both agree, so least we got that.

I would assume one could not run their max distance, jump into the air, land on top of their foe, grab them and then perform a figure 4 leg lock. (though that would be kool to see).

I agree completely, but the Paizo devs have been very explicit about things with full and standard actions. To get your second attack, you must use a full-attack action, which is a full-round action. To make a grapple, you must use a standard action. Since you cannot use a full-round action in the same round you use a standard action, and the feat only allows you to maintain the grapple as a move action after you have successfully grappled, you cannot grapple and pin in the same round.

Reference. (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/rules/greaterGrappleFeatGrappledAndPinnedInTheSameRound&page=1#2)

[Gnaeus]

Let's see, how about I convert some CR 13 modifiers from the MM to CMD (adjusting for size and dex, EDIT: and remembering to add the +10): 31, 34, 36, 28, 42, 34, 40, 33, 35
average: 35. But by the time a party of 4 fights 4 of those (EL 17) they'll be 15th level with a CMB of at least +25, probably 27 with a magic item.

Ah, just got the numbers from the PF SRD: 34,36,36,36,35,42,39,31,31,38,33,40,37,37,34,34,39 , 47, 38, 36, 38, 37. Average 37. So it's about a 50:50 shot.

EDIT: Fixed.

I'm sorry Eric. I usually expect characters to be fighting monsters of their CR or HIGHER, not 2 cr lower. I didn't realize you were playing in easy mode. By all means, play a monk.

[Infernalbargain]

After re-reading the feat, I can see how you arrived at this conclusion. I'm interpreting it a bit different, assuming that the attacker grappled his target, and the attacker has a second attack (hence the +6 BAB requirement) they then choose to make a Full attack, thus granting the second grapple check to pin. Makes sense to me, though I'm not always in the majority around here. In any case, on the second round we both agree, so least we got that.

I would assume one could not run their max distance, jump into the air, land on top of their foe, grab them and then perform a figure 4 leg lock. (though that would be kool to see).


If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).

So the second check for maintenance does give you a second action.

[Doc Roc]

I'm sorry Eric. I usually expect characters to be fighting monsters of their CR or HIGHER, not 2 cr lower. I didn't realize you were playing in easy mode. By all means, play a monk.

:: fist bump ::

A hilarious summary of my opinion on the matter, stated by a funnier and more reputable source.

[subject42]

basic monk hasn't changed in tier at all IMHO.

Zen Archer however is a tier 1 character for sure.

Dump your ki pool into one flurry and you will kill almost anything in one round.

Isn't that pretty much the definition of tier 4 right there?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Isn't that pretty much the definition of tier 4 right there?

Yeah, I have no idea why he said a Zen archer is tier 1.

[Axinian]

Isn't that pretty much the definition of tier 4 right there?
I do believe so. A 1 tier change is better than none I guess, but what's annoying about the Flurry of Shots is that you can't use Rapid or Manyshot with it, which is what I would think the advantage of flurry of shots would be.

[Incanur]

Yeah, I have no idea why he said a Zen archer is tier 1.

The often overlooked gate arrow class feature, perhaps? :smallwink:

[Axinian]

The often overlooked gate arrow class feature, perhaps? :smallwink:
I, at least, have no idea what that is. What is it? I can probably tell without even looking at it that it doesn't make the monk tier 1, however.

[Eldariel]

I, at least, have no idea what that is. What is it? I can probably tell without even looking at it that it doesn't make the monk tier 1, however.

It's what we in the business like to call "a joke". Basically, Incanur is trying to evoke amusement in readers and himself.

[TroubleBrewing]

I, at least, have no idea what that is. What is it? I can probably tell without even looking at it that it doesn't make the monk tier 1, however.

Ditto. I mean, Healers can spam Gate too, but they're Tier 5.

A Tier 1 Monk is a Cleric.

EDIT:
It's what we in the business like to call "a joke". Basically, Incanur is trying to evoke amusement in readers and himself.

I read this, and THEN I saw the winky face after the "gate arrow" bit. Now the joke makes sense!

[Axinian]

It's what we in the business like to call "a joke". Basically, Incanur is trying to evoke amusement in readers and himself.
Fascinating. I must learn more of these "jokes." They appear to be quite powerful weapons.:smallwink:

Sorry, I wasn't in on this one. Carry on.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Fascinating. I must learn more of these "jokes." They appear to be quite powerful weapons.:smallwink:

I know a few!

My monk once beat a Batman wizard.

My fighter once beat a warblade.

In one campaign, my CW samurai was the Chuck Norris of the world.

[Curious]

I know a few!

My monk once beat a Batman wizard.

My fighter once beat a warblade.

In one campaign, my CW samurai was the Chuck Norris of the world.

AAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
. . .
. . .
Er, sorry, regained control now. :smallamused:

[TOZ]

In one campaign, my CW samurai was the Chuck Norris of the world.
Movie trailer voiceover:
In a world of Commoners, there is a man....

[Axinian]

Movie trailer voiceover:
In a world of Commoners, there is a cat....
The next big horror movie.

[TOZ]

Can a CW Samurai handle a housecat? Let's find out!

[Starbuck_II]

I know a few!

My monk once beat a Batman wizard.

My fighter once beat a warblade.

In one campaign, my CW samurai was the Chuck Norris of the world.
Chuck Norris?
Don't you mean Charles Nelson Reilly? CNR!
Don't know him: ask Al Yankovic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLnapb-30hA&feature=related

Chuck fights unarmed seems less like a CW Sam than CNR might.

[Grommen]

I agree completely, but the Paizo devs have been very explicit about things with full and standard actions. To get your second attack, you must use a full-attack action, which is a full-round action. To make a grapple, you must use a standard action. Since you cannot use a full-round action in the same round you use a standard action, and the feat only allows you to maintain the grapple as a move action after you have successfully grappled, you cannot grapple and pin in the same round.

Reference. (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/rules/greaterGrappleFeatGrappledAndPinnedInTheSameRound&page=1#2)

Kool.

I'm basing a lot of this from dealing with our resident grappler. Not a monk, but a cleric of Helm "Division of Grapple". We all know their is not one, but well the dude noticed that on the Forgotten Realms their is no god of grapple. Ever being one to fill a void, Icer has submitted his candidacy. He has been given a list, he must grapple it twice, weather they are naughty or nice.

All things considered, Icer is mostly harmless, so I kinda hedge in his favor on many things. He has one monk level though so this is not totally off topic. :smalltongue:

I've noticed the sick CMD's on some of the creatures his level, and I had to go digging for any advantage I could find for him. Were still using the 3.5 splat books so that helps a lot. Anyway I kinda figure that small loophole helps the melee types and does not help the caster types, so it is all good.