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Silverlich
2011-04-18, 09:22 PM
Why is there so much hate for it on these forums?

Mando Knight
2011-04-18, 09:24 PM
One short answer is because it beat Rich Burlew's setting in WotC's setting search competition.

Lemunde
2011-04-18, 09:24 PM
I don't hate it.
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What's Ebberon?

zimmerwald1915
2011-04-18, 09:26 PM
Where's the Eberron hate?

DeltaEmil
2011-04-18, 09:29 PM
What zimmerwald1915 said.

The Rose Dragon
2011-04-18, 09:34 PM
There is no Ebberon hate on this forum, because Ebberon is not really a thing.

There is, however, a D&D setting called Eberron. It is not really hated around here. In fact, it is one of my favorite things in D&D, even though I'd never actually play in it. I just admire the genius of going to the trouble of creating a setting around the rules rather than the other way around.

nyarlathotep
2011-04-18, 09:35 PM
It's spelled eberron. The reason for the hate is the same as the tome of battle or general optimization hate. Certain people who make up a large portion of this and paizo forums have one specific way of playing that they view as the ONE AND ONLY TRUE DND and eberron is vastly out of line with that view.

That being said a large number of rational people love it or merely don't care for it.

Alleran
2011-04-18, 10:04 PM
It has a lot of cool stuff (I do like Warforged, though I don't often play one, or play any Eberron game at all), but seems to vary between "meh" and "outrageously broken" - particularly for things like prestige classes and so on.

Planar Shepherd, I'm looking at you.

nyarlathotep
2011-04-18, 10:18 PM
It has a lot of cool stuff (I do like Warforged, though I don't often play one, or play any Eberron game at all), but seems to vary between "meh" and "outrageously broken" - particularly for things like prestige classes and so on.

Planar Shepherd, I'm looking at you.

I only remember Planar Shepherd and Escalation Mage being broken all of the rest of them just seemed really fluff specific; like poison focused cleric or wizard really good at working on airships.

slaydemons
2011-04-18, 10:29 PM
as others have said I don't see alot of people saying that they HATE Eberron in fact I like the magic tech they use and the changeling race, shifters are kinda meh cool Idea but not my thing and almost everyone likes warforged because their like kick booty robots with interchangeable parts.

Ravens_cry
2011-04-18, 10:42 PM
I am going to join the chorus of "We hate Eberron? Since when?" I've never had a chance to play it, but with it's less black and white portrayal of races, intriguing concepts, and kicking to the curb of "Medieval Stasis", I have every reason to love it from what I know of it. That is not to say I do not love High Fantasy, Tolkien was a genius at creating a vivid world that almost felt like it could exist beyond the pages has been, a world like for so many, is downright inspiring and humbling, but humanity's own history makes me shy away from black and white portrayals of other beings.

Gamer Girl
2011-04-18, 10:43 PM
I'm not sure I've seen an Eberron hate on the boards.


I'll admit that I don't like the setting, but that is because I like the Forgotten Realms, and Eberron was designed to be anti-Realms and appeal to the Realms haters.

Coidzor
2011-04-18, 10:46 PM
One short answer is because it beat Rich Burlew's setting in WotC's setting search competition.

I don't really think that's much of a factor, really.

I think a fair bit of it is people seem to think it's either A. "too new" in comparison with Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms which have been around forever or B. too steampunky in possible interpretation of the flavor.


I like the Forgotten Realms, and Eberron was designed to be anti-Realms and appeal to the Realms haters.

Why do you believe this to be the case?

Gamer Girl
2011-04-18, 11:18 PM
I don't really think that's much of a factor, really.

I think a fair bit of it is people seem to think it's either A. "too new" in comparison with Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms which have been around forever or B. too steampunky in possible interpretation of the flavor.



Why do you believe this to be the case?

If you ask any Forgotten Realms hater what they don't like about the Realms, you will get these top three:

1.Way too much over powerful magic
2.Way too many powerful NPC's
3.Way, way too many gods/religions


So then Eberron was created with those three things in mind, as you get:

1.Low magic. They try to hide it with the magic train and skyships, but the truth is that it's a low magic setting.
2.No powerful NPC's, most especially heroes or good guys. Everyone in the world is a wimp so that only the players can save the day.
3.No gods at all. You get some vague formless god groups, but only a couple.

Coidzor
2011-04-18, 11:58 PM
So... because it's not FR it was made to anger people who like FR then? That seems a bit of a stretch.

Just because something isn't something else doesn't make it antagonistic to it.

nyarlathotep
2011-04-19, 12:28 AM
1.Low magic. They try to hide it with the magic train and skyships, but the truth is that it's a low magic setting.
2.No powerful NPC's, most especially heroes or good guys. Everyone in the world is a wimp so that only the players can save the day.
3.No gods at all. You get some vague formless god groups, but only a couple.

1. And the magic phones and the magic forges that spit out constructs and the nation with an entirely undead army and the magic hospitals. The magic is just used in practical ways like people would use it in real-life.
2. Well there are a lot of powerful bad guys (daelkyr, rakasha lords, etc) but you are right all of the powerful good guys (undying court and some dragons) are purposely passive so that the PCs can actually be world changing heroes rather than that one guy who did something cause Elminister was busy.

Ozreth
2011-04-19, 12:37 AM
One short answer is because it beat Rich Burlew's setting in WotC's setting search competition.

Whos that and whats his setting?

The Rose Dragon
2011-04-19, 12:39 AM
Whos that and whats his setting?

Rich Burlew is the creator of this forum and this site (he also draws and writes a webcomic as his job, but that's not that important). We don't know what his setting is, because of some sort of binding NDA with the Wizards.

Silverlich
2011-04-19, 05:35 AM
Okay, thanks for correcting my spelling errors, I had been awake for a very long time.

In all honesty, it's not so much hate I've seeen as just a general disapproval and snarkiness over magic trains and the like. IMO, magic trains are pretty cool.

Anyway, I was not aware that Rich Burlew had submitted a setting. I have no doubt it would have been epic. Do you think that the Snarl or some expy of it was involved?

awa
2011-04-19, 06:26 AM
well magic as technology where its just like real tech but magic instead of electricity is often seen as kinda uncreative but thats not what eberron did. the lightning trains and so on is almost a short hand for that kind of thing.

Greenish
2011-04-19, 06:33 AM
I only remember Planar Shepherd and Escalation Mage being brokenHow is Escalation Mage broken aside from having 6/6 casting progression? It gets to Heighten (by one), Empower, Widen or Quicken a spell for free a few times, but that's not so huge.

all of the rest of them just seemed really fluff specific; like poison focused cleric or wizard really good at working on airships.Nosomatic Chirurgeon is disease-focused. Black Dog is poison-focused but it's not a caster PrC. Windwright Captain always felt like a bard PrC to me, but meh.

1.Low magic. They try to hide it with the magic train and skyships, but the truth is that it's a low magic setting.Eberron is high magic density, low magic power. There's less world-shaking epic spells, but the everyday life is pretty full of different low-power spells and effects.

3.No gods at all. You get some vague formless god groups, but only a couple.Well, there might be gods. They just don't mess with mortals so much. There are quite a few religions in Eberron (especially if you count spin-off cults like Three Faces of War), though admittedly less than in the Realms.

Terraoblivion
2011-04-19, 08:59 AM
How exactly is Eberron low magic, even in terms of power? While individual spellcasters are indeed weaker, Eberron has such things as a magical cataclysm destroying an entire country four years and that is the shallow end of the big stuff going on in the setting. We also have two examples of planes getting completely isolated from the world, continent wide devastation and eggshaped skyscrapers shaping the dreams of an entire continent and eventually the entire planet. None of this says "low magic" to me, to put it mildly.

nyarlathotep
2011-04-19, 10:18 AM
How is Escalation Mage broken aside from having 6/6 casting progression? It gets to Heighten (by one), Empower, Widen or Quicken a spell for free a few times, but that's not so huge.


Their whole make any dragon mark thing is poorly written and if used with a permissible DM ends with stupid amounts of versatility.



Nosomatic Chirurgeon is disease-focused. Black Dog is poison-focused but it's not a caster PrC. Windwright Captain always felt like a bard PrC to me, but meh.


Sorry I was just naming those off the top of my head without really thinking about specifics.

Killer Angel
2011-04-19, 10:25 AM
In all honesty, it's not so much hate I've seeen as just a general disapproval and snarkiness over magic trains and the like.

Do you remember a specific discussion on this? It would be nice to support your question.
Eberron is cool, and it can be disliked mainly by peoples that don't love settings with a high density of magic use.

GeekGirl
2011-04-19, 10:26 AM
Slightly off topic, but does anyone else think Warforged druid + Wild Shape = Transformer?

askandarion
2011-04-19, 11:23 AM
Warforged Urban Druid.

With regards to the dislike I've seen, I think it's generally been targetted towards a perceived flavor. Me, I love steampunk, but I don't think that really encapsulates Eberron. It's largely presented as a low magic, high magic utility setting, but was designed to incorporate a lot more than just that. Jungle explorations a la Indiana Jones (including sponsorship by universities), Lovecraftian fighting against powerful eldritch horrors, sky battles versus pirates, political machinations... I think the book itself says something about having room for everything. And I think that's another part of it- if the setting tries to have something for everyone, then there's going to be SOMEthing someone doesn't like. I know someone who can't stand the "robots", another who can't stand the "goth" elves, yet another can't stand the "ridiculous dinosaur riding halflings". Eberron tries some innovative stuff, which some people just don't like.

bloodtide
2011-04-19, 11:26 AM
Slightly off topic, but does anyone else think Warforged druid + Wild Shape = Transformer?

A Warforged Thrall of Juiblex is a Transformer. They can alter self at will, and for a warforged that's constructs and that equals animated objects.

Gamer Girl
2011-04-19, 11:33 AM
How exactly is Eberron low magic, even in terms of power? While individual spellcasters are indeed weaker, Eberron has such things as a magical cataclysm destroying an entire country four years and that is the shallow end of the big stuff going on in the setting. We also have two examples of planes getting completely isolated from the world, continent wide devastation and eggshaped skyscrapers shaping the dreams of an entire continent and eventually the entire planet. None of this says "low magic" to me, to put it mildly.

That all sounds great, sure, but it's all fluff. And Eberron is big on fluff. There is no crunch to back that up.

In short none of the fluff magic effects an adventurer much. Sure you can take a magic train ride to a dungeon, but once your there it's 'good luck'.

And for a 'magic' setting, does Eberron even have a nation of spellcasters? Or even a powerful group of spellcasters?

Dusk Eclipse
2011-04-19, 11:40 AM
That all sounds great, sure, but it's all fluff. And Eberron is big on fluff. There is no crunch to back that up.

In short none of the fluff magic effects an adventurer much. Sure you can take a magic train ride to a dungeon, but once your there it's 'good luck'.

And for a 'magic' setting, does Eberron even have a nation of spellcasters? Or even a powerful group of spellcasters?

Aundair (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=2) is high on the magic scale, having whole batallions of magic users (the most prominent being the Knight Arcane and the Knight Phantoms)

If you count psionics as magic, Sarlona also is pretty much the focus of it, also the ancient Giant empire of Xen'driks had magic so powerful that the Dragons of Argonessen razed said empire to the ground (after the giants put the plane of dreams out of orbit with their magic).

House Cannith is made of Artificers and Mages.

Edit: And do the realms have crunch that back up all the fluff (I am really curious, having started playing on 3.5 and in Eberron I am not really familiar with the realms)

LOTRfan
2011-04-19, 11:41 AM
And for a 'magic' setting, does Eberron even have a nation of spellcasters? Or even a powerful group of spellcasters?

The highest level "official" NPC that I am aware of is Jaela Daran, who is a 16th level Cleric (which seems sort of silly for a nine year old, though if I remember correctly, there is an actual reason for her to be so powerful).

Killer Angel
2011-04-19, 11:41 AM
That all sounds great, sure, but it's all fluff. And Eberron is big on fluff. There is no crunch to back that up.


With Artificiers, mechanics reflects the fluff. Their art is to create magic items, and they're pretty good at.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-04-19, 11:43 AM
The highest level "official" NPC that I am aware of is Jaela Daran, who is a 16th level Cleric (which seems sort of silly for a nine year old, though if I remember correctly, there is an actual reason for her to be so powerful).

She is the Voice of the Flame, the only actual proof of divinity in Eberron, and she only get her powers while inside the Flamekeep (sort of the Equivalent of the Vatican for the Church of the Silver flame) outside it, she is only a level 3 cleric.

Terraoblivion
2011-04-19, 11:46 AM
You mean apart from the continent of dragons, the continent of psionic using outsiders and the court of undead elves that use magic to guide their people?

Also, as a setting fluff really is more important than crunch, that's what settings are about. Similarly, Eberron generally doesn't focus on dungeon crawling and just taking the train to the dungeon. Rather you take the train to the capital of another country where you meet with informants. Much of the magic from the fluff is also meant to have lingering effects that happen in a large variety of locations. The Mournland is the most obvious of these, with a laundry list of changes to how your magic functions while within it, but similar effects are common in the Shadowmarches and Xendrik as well. The Tashana tundra in Sarlona has also got roaming planar breaches which has various remarkable effects should you get caught up in them. The shroud covering Adar is pretty impressive too and has real, mechanical effects.

Edit: And regarding high level NPCs. Vol is effectively level 23 I believe, as a half-dragon lich who's something like Sorceror 16. Mordain the Fleshweaver is a level 18 wizard. Ascended Councilors are CR 17 undying with substantial spellcasting if I remember correctly. Then there are the dragons and rakshasa rajas, who frequently break the barrier into epic.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-04-19, 11:49 AM
Don't forget the Lord of Dust, powerful Demons that couldn't be defeated by the combined power of Coatls and Dragons and instead had to be Imprisoned in Kyber (Eberron's Underdark).

nyarlathotep
2011-04-19, 11:54 AM
The highest level "official" NPC that I am aware of is Jaela Daran, who is a 16th level Cleric (which seems sort of silly for a nine year old, though if I remember correctly, there is an actual reason for her to be so powerful).

Normally she's level 3 and is actually in her early teens. She is only level 16 when in the presence of her god the Silver Flame.

There are also much higher level NPCs Volo is level 16 as well and is a demigod, there is a talking tree that is a 20th level druid, and also all of the members of the undying court's highest level are CL 20 Cr 19 creatures.

Gamer Girl
2011-04-19, 11:58 AM
Edit: And do the realms have crunch that back up all the fluff (I am really curious, having started playing on 3.5 and in Eberron I am not really familiar with the realms)

Yes. This is one of the highlights of the Realms, ultra high magic crunch. Tons of Realms books are full of crunch. This is one of the top three things that people hate the most about the Realms.

For an easy example: In Eberron some magic might have destroyed an area, but it's all fluff, it just happened. The Realms however gives you the crunch on the elven high magic epic spell that they used to destroy nations.

askandarion
2011-04-19, 12:13 PM
The thing about all of these high-level casters and enemies is that they're, by and large, hidden. By dangerous, imprisoning cavern systems, by bureaucratic tangles, by laws, by distance, by manipulation... I've always felt that Eberron was set up for low-level adventures, but when the PCs have gotten high enough to go directly after one of the big bads in the setting, they find out they've been tangling with the villain all along. These are Bond villains, pulling the strings, starting plots, and the heroes have finally worked their way through the web for the final confrontation.

Eberron was influenced mostly by Pulp stories, I think? I think they tried to make it possible to have anything happen in Eberron, but by default it's geared towards a grittier story style. So there are high level threats and cadres of casters, but they aren't emphasized. We aren't told what Vol has for breakfast, or how many times a dream-year the Quori stop to play the Wardream Chimes of Tra'vahalesk-Sth Threskin in celebration of their victories on Eberron, or how many battles the Lord of Dust Drungastahl has had with the ancient 25th-level Lorekeeper of Threska. I think the campaign setting also said something like "it's about the players' characters"? I could be making that up completely, of course...

Gamer Girl
2011-04-19, 12:35 PM
I think the campaign setting also said something like "it's about the players' characters"? I could be making that up completely, of course...

That is the whole point of Eberron right there:To make the players the Stars.


The typical Forgotten Realms hater will tell you this Myth: I saw a Forgotten Realms book once that said it's pointless to adventure in the Realms. Anytime a Player character sets out to do something, it will automatically be done but one of the hundreds of ultra powerful NPC's of the setting.

They often call this the 'Metaplot', and can never show proof of what book they saw this 'rule' in.

I guess a lot of people had this type of Forgotten Realms game in the past:
DM--"Travel to the north of town has been stopped by goblin bandits''
Players--"Ah, a quest! We go and gather our horses...
DM--"Wait!Stop! Before you can even move Elminster appears and casts Obliterate Realms Goblin Bandits and the spell retroactively obliterates all goblin bandits all throughout time and space.
Players--"Oh, sigh....um..we go back to the tavern and get a drink.''

But Eberron gives the Players a big ego boost:
DM--"The sad, pathetic and totally hapless people all lay at your feet and beg for help--'goblin bandits to the north they say'
Player--"We look around"
DM--"Every single person you see is is weak and useless. There is no one to stop the goblin bandits.
Player-"Ah! Not so! I leap up onto a soapbox and say 'good people, I the all mighty Jo will stop the goblin bandits and save the world."
DM--"Everyone cheers

Dusk Eclipse
2011-04-19, 12:38 PM
That is the whole point of Eberron right there:To make the players the Stars.


The typical Forgotten Realms hater will tell you this Myth: I saw a Forgotten Realms book once that said it's pointless to adventure in the Realms. Anytime a Player character sets out to do something, it will automatically be done but one of the hundreds of ultra powerful NPC's of the setting.

They often call this the 'Metaplot', and can never show proof of what book they saw this 'rule' in.

I guess a lot of people had this type of Forgotten Realms game in the past:
DM--"Travel to the north of town has been stopped by goblin bandits''
Players--"Ah, a quest! We go and gather our horses...
DM--"Wait!Stop! Before you can even move Elminster appears and casts Obliterate Realms Goblin Bandits and the spell retroactively obliterates all goblin bandits all throughout time and space.
Players--"Oh, sigh....um..we go back to the tavern and get a drink.''

But Eberron gives the Players a big ego boost:
DM--"The sad, pathetic and totally hapless people all lay at your feet and beg for help--'goblin bandits to the north they say'
Player--"We look around"
DM--"Every single person you see is is weak and useless. There is no one to stop the goblin bandits.
Player-"Ah! Not so! I leap up onto a soapbox and say 'good people, I the all mighty Jo will stop the goblin bandits and save the world."
DM--"Everyone cheers


Ok I am sure you are exaggerating the Realms part; but how is exactly wrong to make the player's the stars? I mean that is kinda the point of the game...

Volthawk
2011-04-19, 12:43 PM
Eberron isn't always low level. I mean, there's a level 20 commoner in Sharn.

Terraoblivion
2011-04-19, 12:43 PM
You will rarely fight generic goblin bandits in Eberron. Or generic orc bandits, generic human bandits or anything else. Eberron is not about killing small fry and taking their, nor is it about clearcut questions like that. Of course a GM could do that, but it really is missing the point of what the setting is about. A typical starting adventure could be to guard an archaeologist on a dig, only to eventually find out that what he's digging for is an important cultural symbol to the hobgoblins who have been attacking him and want it to rally the other tribes and rebuild their empire. That's a fairly simple one too. Eberron is all about political ties, ancient mysteries and twisting and turning plots where the truth is rarely clear.

Edit: Also by leaving many of the big secrets and just what the plans and capabilities of the major NPCs are vague, you don't just leave the setting more open for the players to be the stars. To at least as great a degree you leave room for the GM to create the kind of game he's going for and to leave surprises as genuine surprises. It gives you much more ownership of the game.

Personally, I also feel that it leaves the page count to be spent on more interesting and useful things like heavy crunch that will rarely be used or the lives of important people. Getting an idea of what daily life and economics in a world is like, without getting into pedantic detail, is quite useful in making it easier to play a character who's truly part of it.

LOTRfan
2011-04-19, 12:44 PM
Normally she's level 3 and is actually in her early teens. She is only level 16 when in the presence of her god the Silver Flame.

It seems I have misremembered then, sorry.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-04-19, 12:46 PM
Eberron isn't always low level. I mean, there's a level 20 commoner in Sharn.

Wait... what? where is he stated? I guess in Sharn: City of Towers... but I have been wrong before so...

askandarion
2011-04-19, 12:52 PM
I think that might be part of the dislike some people have, as well- the setting tries to leave stuff vague, like Eldritch machines, for DMs and players to fill in, and some people seem to HATE that (the vagueness). Some players like everything statted out, like the gods. I get that way sometimes, myself- like the mysterious unclear endings of some series or movies (Inception, Lost as I understand it, The Sopranos)- sometimes, someone just wants an actual official explanation in front of them, instead of having to make their own guess.

comicshorse
2011-04-19, 12:57 PM
Jungle explorations a la Indiana Jones (including sponsorship by universities), Lovecraftian fighting against powerful eldritch horrors, sky battles versus pirates, political machinations... I think the book itself says something about having room for everything. A.

All the reasons I love Eberron, well them and Shifters

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-04-19, 01:04 PM
The highest level "official" NPC that I am aware of is Jaela Daran, who is a 16th level Cleric (which seems sort of silly for a nine year old, though if I remember correctly, there is an actual reason for her to be so powerful).

Actually, the Awakened Tree Druid is 20th level, and there's a random 17th or 18th level Necromancer living in a tower somewhere. I don't remember what book he's from though.

As for Eberron...I haven't seen that much hate, honestly. Speaking for myself, it probably my absolute favorite published campaign setting for D&D, official, third-party, or otherwise.

Hazzardevil
2011-04-19, 01:33 PM
To be honest I like Eberron.
The problem is it is hard to dm a campaign without knowing the setting really well.
I have a few gripes about Eberron though:
It doesn`t explain a lot of the races such as the valenar. Are they good? Evil? All they say is they like scimitars and leave a fun prestige class to use.
They don`t stat out some of the most interesting NPC`s you would want to take on.
They also wrote certain prestige classes really badly.

But I like the fluff of eberron and almost completly hate some of the fluff for the realms.

DeltaEmil
2011-04-19, 01:43 PM
It doesn`t explain a lot of the races such as the valenar. Are they good? Evil? All they say is they like scimitars and leave a fun prestige class to use.That should be the point. You can and should make them how you feel they serve best.
It would be good for your campaign if they were evil and had good motives for doing that, or they were good and had to do bad stuff.

I treat them just as neutral, like everybody else.

Coidzor
2011-04-19, 01:57 PM
That all sounds great, sure, but it's all fluff. And Eberron is big on fluff. There is no crunch to back that up.

In short none of the fluff magic effects an adventurer much. Sure you can take a magic train ride to a dungeon, but once your there it's 'good luck'.

And for a 'magic' setting, does Eberron even have a nation of spellcasters? Or even a powerful group of spellcasters?

Sure, Elminster can teleport you into a dungeon, but once you're there it's 'good luck.' Or you don't get to do anything but watch.

But, more seriously, none of that actually shows how it's antagonistic to FR or why you believe it to be anti-FR and thus worthy of being disliked on that count alone.

Greenish
2011-04-19, 02:00 PM
Their whole make any dragon mark thing is poorly written and if used with a permissible DM ends with stupid amounts of versatility.Are you sure you mean Escalation Mage?

That all sounds great, sure, but it's all fluff. And Eberron is big on fluff. There is no crunch to back that up.

And for a 'magic' setting, does Eberron even have a nation of spellcasters? Or even a powerful group of spellcasters?You seem to "know" much about Eberron seeing that you don't actually know much about it.

Why should it have a nation of spellcasters just because the Realms does? Like I said, magic in Eberron is not huge flashy stuff and sorcerer-kings, it's mundane and all-pervasive. Eberron has the magewrights, eternal wands, artificers, dragonmarks and so forth. There may not be a nation solely made of spellcasters, but you can buy a teleport spell from most large cities, easily store your stuff in an interdimensional bank account, buy healing from CLW to Resurrection from House Jorasco (who out-competed most temples in healing department long ago) and so forth.

It has some of groups of powerful spellcasters, of course: Arcane Congress, the Twelve, Lords of Dust, the Chamber, the Gatekeepers (okay, they're not exactly at the peak of their power anymore), Inspired (whose leaders tend to be lvl 17-20 psions and the like) and so forth. Giants had a big magical empire, but it got crushed.

I have a few gripes about Eberron though:
It doesn`t explain a lot of the races such as the valenar. Are they good? Evil? All they say is they like scimitars and leave a fun prestige class to use.Eberron doesn't really do that black and white thing, you know. Valenar as a nation might easily be seen as evil, but that's since their concept of honour and their belief system is quite different from what the Five Nations are used to.

They don`t stat out some of the most interesting NPC`s you would want to take on.They stat out quite a few. you can go tackle Lord of Blades, or maybe that halfling saint who has sat on top of a pole for a decade now in Sharn.


They also wrote certain prestige classes really badly.And some pretty well, like in most other splats.

Edit: And do the realms have crunch that back up all the fluff (I am really curious, having started playing on 3.5 and in Eberron I am not really familiar with the realms)Whoo boy, FR is infamous for the amounts of caster cheese it contains.

Gamer Girl
2011-04-19, 02:05 PM
But, more seriously, none of that actually shows how it's antagonistic to FR or why you believe it to be anti-FR and thus worthy of being disliked on that count alone.

The three main complaints of the FR haters(too much magic, to many powerful NPCs and too many gods) are exactly spelled out in the Eberron core book. Odd they created a world that was exactly a perfect fit to the average Realms hater. Each Eberron book said 'If you hate the Realms, buy me' to all the haters.

Coidzor
2011-04-19, 02:06 PM
Are you sure you mean Escalation Mage?

I thought it was Cataclysm Mage or something with a suitably apocalyptic name that got the ability to manifest any one of the main houses' dragonmarks. Don't recall anything about the Aberrant dragonmarks and their more potent versions though.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-04-19, 02:08 PM
Whoo boy, FR is infamous for the amounts of caster cheese it contains.

Now that you mention.... Incantatrix, Halrual Elders, Original Incarnation of DweomerKeeper, Mytic Shield (as much as I like that spell), Steel Dragons... err yep you are right :smallredface:

Prime32
2011-04-19, 02:11 PM
That all sounds great, sure, but it's all fluff. And Eberron is big on fluff. There is no crunch to back that up.

In short none of the fluff magic effects an adventurer much. Sure you can take a magic train ride to a dungeon, but once your there it's 'good luck'.

And for a 'magic' setting, does Eberron even have a nation of spellcasters? Or even a powerful group of spellcasters?
Besides what was mentioned of Aundair, they also have the floating islands of Arcanix, magic universities filled with high-level NPCs.

Crunch? Magewright is an NPC class, and artificer is a PC class. Making magic items is as common a profession as making barrels, and anyone can take it up. In some games it goes further and all craftsmen are spellcasters. The people of Eberron have developed means of mass producing magic items which FR characters couldn't dream of (including types of rechargable scrolls which provide prereqs, and specialised homunculi which can do the work of assembling the item for you). Then there's spells like magecraft, which mean that even mundane items are unusually high quality and can be produced with less training.

Then there's the dragonmarks. One dragonmarked house had enough people with innate spellcasting ability to take over the healing business from the clerics of every religion put together. Many useful magic items (particularly for utility/routine tasks) are designed to be powered by dragonmarks for greater efficiency, and just having a mark will open up at least three unique PrCs representing specialised uses they've developed for each one.

Many, many of Eberron's classes, spells and feats rely on access to other magic items or effects on demand. There are magic items which only function in the city of Sharn because of its connection to the Sky plane for instance. Not to mention Sharn itself, with at least one official adventure involving someone sabotaging its planar link so that one of the towers can no longer support its own weight.

Greenish
2011-04-19, 02:17 PM
I thought it was Cataclysm MageAh, that was it. Any Least, Lesser or Greater Dragonmark. That's a pretty nice list, but I don't see anything terribly broken for ECL 15 caster, especially since the PrC loses a level of casting.

[Edit]:
One dragonmarked house had enough people with innate spellcasting ability to take over the healing business from the clerics of every religion put together.Ah, House Jorasco. Their version of Hippocratic Oath features a promise not to heal anyone who hasn't paid upfront. :smallcool:

Many useful magic items (particularly for utility/routine tasks) are designed to be powered by dragonmarks for greater efficiency, and just having a mark will open up at least three unique PrCs representing specialised uses they've developed for each one.Three? There's twelve in Dragonmarked plus Dragonmarked Heir from ECS and probably a few I'm forgetting.

Coidzor
2011-04-19, 02:19 PM
The three main complaints of the FR haters(too much magic, to many powerful NPCs and too many gods) are exactly spelled out in the Eberron core book. Odd they created a world that was exactly a perfect fit to the average Realms hater. Each Eberron book said 'If you hate the Realms, buy me' to all the haters.

...If the setting had been identical to FR, they wouldn't have been able to sell it because people would just buy FR which was better known and monolithic. That's how markets work. In order to release a new setting, Wizards of the Coast, as part of that whole contest deal earlier, needed to pick something that would be new rather than more of the same so that it had a chance of surviving and selling. Nothing about that means it must, therefore, hate FR.

I've read several Eberron books and it doesn't say anything like that at all in them or even betray any kind of awareness of the rest of D&D for the most part.

So, even if you had signed testimony that had been leaked to the media and collaborated with a public appearance and speech by Keith Baker saying he had created it specifically to annoy people who liked FR, the execution most definitely does not reflect that sufficient to justify anything more than going lolwut at the convoluted scheme that had been uncovered.


Now that you mention.... Incantatrix, Halrual Elders, Original Incarnation of DweomerKeeper, Mytic Shield (as much as I like that spell), Steel Dragons... err yep you are right :smallredface:

Steel Dragons are originally Greyhawk dragons though, to be fair, they just got ported over, though I believe they were first a mostly stand-alone web release on the WoTC site for 3.0.

Prime32
2011-04-19, 02:22 PM
Many useful magic items (particularly for utility/routine tasks) are designed to be powered by dragonmarks for greater efficiency, and just having a mark will open up at least three unique PrCs representing specialised uses they've developed for each one.Three? There's twelve in Dragonmarked plus Dragonmarked Heir from ECS and probably a few I'm forgetting.I meant for each dragonmark.


EDIT: If you want a teleport in FR, you find a high-level spellcaster. If you want a teleport in Eberron then anyone with the Mark of Travel can activate one of his house's teleportation platforms for you, and for much lower cost than a wizard. It's the same for most services, including healing, creating new species, magical wards, etc.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-04-19, 02:25 PM
<snip>

Steel Dragons are originally Greyhawk dragons though, to be fair, they just got ported over, though I believe they were first a mostly stand-alone web release on the WoTC site for 3.0.

I thought they were first published in Dragons of Farūn... oh well you learn something new every day.

Telonius
2011-04-19, 02:27 PM
Wait... what? where is he stated? I guess in Sharn: City of Towers... but I have been wrong before so...

I've seen a few references to this person before. I don't have any Eberron books (outside the campaign setting) myself, but I believe the person was either a tax collector or a cook.

EDIT: Googled a bit - apparently the Commoner20 tax collector is in Faerun. Commoner20 cook is in Eberron. Must've won a whole bunch of Iron Chef competitions. (Note to self: include a Warforged "Iron Chef" next time I run an Eberron campaign).

Dusk Eclipse
2011-04-19, 02:39 PM
Ah, that was it. Any Least, Lesser or Greater Dragonmark. That's a pretty nice list, but I don't see anything terribly broken for ECL 15 caster, especially since the PrC loses a level of casting.


And if the Dragons know you can do that (which is quite likely considering most of them are powerful spellcasters) they will kill you and either destroy your soul or Bind it (the books and I quote "To protect both the Prophesy and the fabric of fate itself, the dragons decree that those who bear the secret of the Dragonmark must die swiftly and with no hope of resurection)...man any party will either hate or love a level 10 Cataclisym Mage in the party (high level encounters must be common when a whole nation of Dragons want to kill you)

Prime32
2011-04-19, 02:41 PM
On another note, when most campaign settings go to war they send armies of lv1 commoners.

When Eberron goes to war they send armies of sentient golems with 1-3 class levels, and of spellcasters armed with multiple wands each. Sometimes the two groups overlap. Troops jump out of elemental-powered airships and activate their boots of feather fall before they hit the ground. And there's superweapons flying everywhere, from magically engineered superbeasts (it's implied that House Vadalis created the tarrasque) to bombs that turn everything into undead for miles. Unlike FR, killing the country's highest-level spellcaster is equivalent to killing their leading scientist rather than destroying all their missile silos.

Greenish
2011-04-19, 02:56 PM
On another note, when most campaign settings go to war they send armies of lv1 commoners.Armies consist mostly of level 1 commoners even in Eberron (only Karrnath has warriors as it's basic mooks). That's one of the reasons warforged (who always start with at least one level in Fighter) were so popular. Well, that and the fact that they don't need to eat or sleep and are immune to diseases.

And creating a warforged costs less than a +2 sword, when done in large batches.

spellcasters armed with multiple wands each.Eternal Wands were created so that Magewrights would have some use in the battlefield.

Troops jump out of elemental-powered airships and activate their boots of feather fall before they hit the ground.Airships weren't really used in combat operations, since few people aside House Lyrandar have them, and the houses were neutral. Besides, they would've used the cheap one-use multi-person life ring for dropping soldiers, surely. :smalltongue:


You did forget the Knights Phantom, Aundairian mounted infrantry consisting of gishes mounted on Phantom Steeds, and the undead legions of Karrnath.

Terraoblivion
2011-04-19, 03:00 PM
According to the book about the last war, the Forge of War, the only nation that significantly used commoners during the war was Thrane which focused on quantity over quality when it came to their military. The typical conscripted soldier was a warrior of level 1-3, with elite units going as far as having up to ten levels of PC classes. Really, Eberron is more mid-level than low-level when you take a closer look. There are more people who get out of utter suckitude, but less who reach stratospheric power.

Greenish
2011-04-19, 03:07 PM
The typical conscripted soldier was a warrior of level 1-3, with elite units going as far as having up to ten levels of PC classes.I'm looking at the Chapter 2, which gives an overview of the armies of different nations, and all (of the Five Nations) but Karrnath have Commoner 1 as their basic conscripted mooks.

[Edit]: And it stands for a reason, given that 90% of people in Eberron are 1st level commoners (and most of the rest are higher level commoners).

Coidzor
2011-04-19, 03:11 PM
I thought they were first published in Dragons of Farūn... oh well you learn something new every day.

I think 2004 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a)predates dragons of Faerun, but maybe not.

Can't remember what source it was but I'd swear I've run into them being called Greyhawk Dragons (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Greyhawk_dragon)before. Ah, it was a fan production of dragons that had updated them to 3rd edition remarkably closely to what they actually went with officially...

Terraoblivion
2011-04-19, 03:11 PM
In that case, the book can't decide, since every example given of even the mookiest units had warriors rather than commoners and the Thrane crusades were specifically described as being untrained rabble whose only useful trait was numbers. Kinda hard to argue when everyone else uses commoners too. It also doesn't really seem to fit with the general view of the setting presented in other books. Honestly, I think that note was just there to shoehorn in an arbitrary rule from the first DMG and not because it really reflects the setting well.

Greenish
2011-04-19, 03:21 PM
In that case, the book can't decide, since every example given of even the mookiest units had warriors rather than commonersLook at, say, Armies of Cyre section. The EL 5 is a volunteer squad. Look at Armies of Aundair: 9 1st level commoners, a 1st level magewright and a 1st level fighter consist the militia squad. "Most of Aundair's infrantry consist of determined and reasonably well-trained farmers."

The Thrane levies just lack any real training and are equipped with spears, clubs and no armour at all.

Prime32
2011-04-19, 03:44 PM
I think 2004 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a)predates dragons of Faerun, but maybe not.

Can't remember what source it was but I'd swear I've run into them being called Greyhawk Dragons (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Greyhawk_dragon)before. Ah, it was a fan production of dragons that had updated them to 3rd edition remarkably closely to what they actually went with officially...They were in an issue of one of the Paizo mags, where both names were mentioned.

hamishspence
2011-04-19, 03:48 PM
Yes- Issue #339 (Jan 2006).

nyarlathotep
2011-04-19, 03:51 PM
Ah, that was it. Any Least, Lesser or Greater Dragonmark. That's a pretty nice list, but I don't see anything terribly broken for ECL 15 caster, especially since the PrC loses a level of casting.


It was only in combination with other abilities that it became broken, I was just saying that was the only other class I remember any problems from at all besides Planar Shepard. Cause of all the complaints that can be leveled against Eberron broken prestige classes is not one of them.

Alleran
2011-04-19, 07:06 PM
The Realms however gives you the crunch on the elven high magic epic spell that they used to destroy nations.
I couldn't help but notice this.

Where?

I assume, of course, that you're talking about The Killing Storm. The ancient elven high magic that razed a massive chunk of landscape and turned it into a blasted land. Of course, it wasn't on the scale of Cyre in Eberron. And there is that little factoid about how anybody who tries to research it and discover how to cast it nowadays "mysteriously dies" about ten days later. The elves protect their secrets, and they don't want that spell out and about more than anything else. I think only one character (a 40th level spellcaster, the Srinshee) still actually knows how to cast it, and she isn't telling.

But the spell hasn't actually been statted out and given crunch. All the sourcebooks I can think of just say "very bad spell, destroys cities and nations, learn this spell and die ten days later" or some variant thereof.

There are other powerful high magic spells, such as when they summoned a tidal wave to destroy the nation of psionicists, but that one wasn't statted out either. There's a "tidal wave" 9th level spell for a lesser variant of it kicking about somewhere, and things like Frostburn already let you drop icebergs on people and start mini-ice ages in the area.

And let us not forget Apocalypse From The Sky.

The only other one that might qualify is the Dracorage Mythal in Dragons of Faerun. I don't know that I'd say it destroys nations, though. It led to the destruction of the dragon empires, yes, but it's a bit iffy, since it wasn't just the mythal that did it, but it combined with lesser races banding together to fight the dragons (and frankly, I'd be rather wary of a dragon who in addition to his flight, flyby attacks and breath weapon can also now enter a rage as a barbarian with no downsides...).

AslanCross
2011-04-19, 07:45 PM
I certainly do not hate Eberron. It's my favorite setting.



Yes. This is one of the highlights of the Realms, ultra high magic crunch. Tons of Realms books are full of crunch. This is one of the top three things that people hate the most about the Realms.

For an easy example: In Eberron some magic might have destroyed an area, but it's all fluff, it just happened. The Realms however gives you the crunch on the elven high magic epic spell that they used to destroy nations.

The entire point of the Mournland is that it's supposed to be open-ended. It's part of a mystery to be solved, if it is at all possible. Part of what Keith Baker wanted when he was creating the setting is that some questions will never be answered in canon.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-04-19, 08:00 PM
In that case, the book can't decide, since every example given of even the mookiest units had warriors rather than commoners and the Thrane crusades were specifically described as being untrained rabble whose only useful trait was numbers.

I thought the Thrane's advantage was their archery tradition, pretty much every Thranite knows how to use a longbow. At least, that's what it says in the 4e book.

Also, what eberron hate is there on the forums? Eberron is awesome, it's the only campaign setting where orcs are the stewards of nature and elves rampage across the land in destructive hordes. :smallcool:

Maeglin_Dubh
2011-04-19, 08:23 PM
The fluff changed somewhat from 3.5 to 4E, as I understand it.

AslanCross
2011-04-19, 08:39 PM
The longbow is the favored weapon of the Silver Flame, so it still seems sensible to have everyone try to learn it. I don't remember The Forge of War ever mentioning that the longbow was the reason Thrane was successful at all during the Last War, though. Mostly I recall the wyvern-riding knights and divine magic.

Greenish
2011-04-19, 08:51 PM
Mostly I recall the wyvern-riding knights and divine magic.Those, and the unwashed masses of "crusaders".

Actually, looking at Forge of War, Thrane's archery is described as poor.

Weasel of Doom
2011-04-19, 10:16 PM
Can't say I've seen much Eberron hate on these forums. I for one really like pretty much every aspect of the setting from the grey morality to fights aboad speeding lightning rails.

I've never been sure whether it's really as low-magic as people say. There is low-level magic and magitech pretty much everywhere and even a pretty large number of high-level casters when you think of Sarlona, the Lords of Dust, the dragons and the assorted casters across Khorvaire. I agree that they're all fairly passive, or at least vaguely subtle enough that they can be in the background until the DM decides otherwise, allowing the PCs to be the heroes. This is just another of the reasons I like the setting.


But, more seriously, none of that actually shows how it's antagonistic to FR or why you believe it to be anti-FR and thus worthy of being disliked on that count alone.

I haven't interpreted GamerGirl's posts as saying that Eberron is antagonistic to FR or anti-FR, merely that it is very different and thus well-suited to people who dislike FR.

Coidzor
2011-04-19, 10:59 PM
I haven't interpreted GamerGirl's posts as saying that Eberron is antagonistic to FR or anti-FR, merely that it is very different and thus well-suited to people who dislike FR.

...I would've sworn that she accused it of feeding trolls and specifically used it being "anti-FR" as a reason for disliking it.

Nero24200
2011-04-20, 04:07 AM
I wasn't aware there was Eberron hate on this forum. The closest I've seen is some posters off-handedly saying that some DM's ban warforged because it's "not fantasy" or something to that effect.

I personally love Eberron and it's by far my favourite D'n'D setting (though that could also be because I don't really care much for settings like FR and Greyhawk).

It's also one of the few settings I feel get's magic "right" in a sense. The DM guide has a small paragraph which left me pondering how having magic would affect the world (for instance would castle's bother building castle walls if foes could just fly over them?) and Eberron is one of the few settings that addresses that by having magical elements all over the place (airships powered by elementals, streetlights which, via magic, activate on their own when it's dark etc).

And it also has a design goal which I feel no other setting does anywhere near as well and that's "If it has a place in D'n'D, it has a place in Eberron". It's one of the few were elements such as psionics actually have a role rather than just being tacked on.

Rust
2011-04-20, 10:30 AM
Gotta say I love Eberron, working an a new campaign there myself. It seems that a fair bit of the Eberron hate I've heard recently (not here) comes from FR fans who are annoyed at the vast changes to their setting while Eberron has a few tweaks that make it no worse and probably that little bit better. I like FR, played allot more of it than Eberron infact but its very formulaic and the only long term campaigns we've had have ended because the players got sick of being used as pawns by epic level mages (though granted that was as much a failing of our GMs who in their defence we're still learning and have vastly improved since)

One point I've not heard raise is that Eberron itself states that you can use anything from other D&D sourcebooks and fit it into the setting and while this might not be quite universal if you like the epic crunchiness of FRs there's no reason you can't have it show up in Eberron, either as new developments of House Cannith or in the Ruins of Xen'drik.

Edit: Oh yeah and you can have the luggage from Discworld as your familiar! That's pretty awesome. :smallwink:

MeeposFire
2011-04-21, 04:16 AM
IN the change from 1e to 2e the realms went through an event called the Time of Troubles which caused quite a stir at the time. The reason why they did it was that FR feels a need to explain even the smallest change in crunch even if the game changed relatively little from 1e to 2e (it was more akin to 3.0-3.5 than 2e-3e). If Eberron existed at that time little would have changed except for the political correctness part (demons would still become Tanarri) but the setting would not update for the edition it would just stay the same and the new mechanics would become "what are you talking about it has always been that way. We never used attack tables we have always used THAC0" that sort of thing (which is what happened in 4e).

Leon
2011-04-22, 02:28 AM
I cant say i have seen any particular hate for the setting anymore that any other setting - most topics are for the game in general with maybe some advice coming for setting related books and even then most games would probably allow some amount of cross usage as they are the same game chassis with a different bodywork painted a different colour.