Why doesn't the Federation use armor?

[Sacrieur]

No seriously, I keep asking me this while I watch through Star Trek tNG and see crew member after crew member be shot.

For all of their intelligence, they can't realize that going into hostile conditions might warrant some protection? A personal shield? Anything really. And why do commanders go down without any sort of personal guard? I realize that they scan for life forms and weaponry before heading down to the surface, but there have been times when such is impossible, or the enemy is employing something they couldn't detect.

It makes beat my head against a wall in anguish because the rest of the show is so brilliant, except for Dr. Crusher, she's much too emotionally irrational for my tastes. I mean seriously, at least Dr. McCoy wasn't weak willed. They couldn't have found a better doctor for the Federation flagship? For shame... Dr. Bashir is a far better doctor too.

[Mastikator]

Better yet, why not send unmanned robots?

[Ravens_cry]

Starfleet is basically the Navy crossed with the Diplomatic Corps crossed with NASA, they aren't exactly very military. The technology could also be at the state where any armour would be so bulky as to just make them easier targets, like how full body plate armour went out of fashion once guns started getting good. Remember, the basic sidearm can vaporise an adult human in one shot. Not pierce, not cut, not charcoal, vaporize. That takes a lot of energy.
Now the Borg have individual force fields, but they were, initially anyway,supposed to be way ahead of everyone else.
OK, Watsonion attempts at handwaves out of the way, now for some Doylist thoughts. Adding a "shield hit" visual effect to every episode where a Starfleet personal was shot at would have been very expensive and still would have added significantly to the budget of even the most recent series. Armour, though less expensive, wouldn't have gone well with the themes of exploration, discovery, and peaceful contact the series were trying to present.

[rakkoon]

I love the fact that the first and second in command often go down in the same ship. Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

[Ravens_cry]

I love the fact that the first and second in command often go down in the same ship. Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.
That is against regulations by the way. Still, cochineal dyed fabric ablative armour with an organic core (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshirt_(character)) seems to help prevent dangerous incidents to senior officers.

[Sacrieur]

Starfleet is basically the Navy crossed with the Diplomatic Corps crossed with NASA, they aren't exactly very military. The technology could also be at the state where any armour would be so bulky as to just make them easier targets, like how full body plate armour went out of fashion once guns started getting good. Remember, the basic sidearm can vaporise an adult human in one shot. Not pierce, not cut, not charcoal, vaporize. That takes a lot of energy.
Now the Borg have individual force fields, but they were, initially anyway,supposed to be way ahead of everyone else.
OK, Watsonion attempts at handwaves out of the way, now for some Doylist thoughts. Adding a "shield hit" visual effect to every episode where a Starfleet personal was shot at would have been very expensive and still would have added significantly to the budget of even the most recent series. Armour, though less expensive, wouldn't have gone well with the themes of exploration, discovery, and peaceful contact the series were trying to present.

Yes, and while they do have plenty of scientists on board, they also have plenty of engineers. And the commanders engaged combat plenty. The Enterprise was in no way a weakly armed ship. Any intelligent higher command would order some form of armor. It doesn't have to be used on all missions, but for particularly dangerous ones?

[The Big Dice]

Yes, and while they do have plenty of scientists on board, they also have plenty of engineers. And the commanders engaged combat plenty. The Enterprise was in no way a weakly armed ship. Any intelligent higher command would order some form of armor. It doesn't have to be used on all missions, but for particularly dangerous ones?

When the wepons kill you on a cellular level, what's the point in armour? It's not going to protect you any, just be bulky.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Yes, and while they do have plenty of scientists on board, they also have plenty of engineers. And the commanders engaged combat plenty. The Enterprise was in no way a weakly armed ship. Any intelligent higher command would order some form of armor. It doesn't have to be used on all missions, but for particularly dangerous ones?

If armour is no good against the weapons being deployed (primarially directed energy weapons) then there is no point in using it. An intelligent higher command simply wouldn't waste the resources.

Now, shields, on the other hand: The only people in the series that have personal shields are the Borg, who are an insanely advanced "species". We can presume that at the tech level of the Federation, shield generation equipment is simply too bulky (or requires too much energy) to be used as personal defense.

(The difference isn't unreasonable: Looking back to Asimov's Foundation Series - in the early stories a technologist from the Empire refused to believe that a Foundation trader has a personal shield, as the Empire simply couldn't concieve of - let alone build - a shield smaller than one to protect a town.)

[Sacrieur]

Phasers certainly are extremely lethal, but the crew have been exposed to less advanced weaponry. Surely there would be a way to help dissipate the blasts, even a little? It would improve survivability. As smart as they are and they can't even develop any armor? I doubt that.

We invented swords, then we invented chain mail. We invented arrows and crossbows, then we invented plate armor. We invented guns, then we invented kevlar vests.

For every weaponry development there creates a dire need for protection against it. Thus, necessity becomes the mother of invention.

---

There's an episode of the ST tNG that depicts a future federation warship, the Enterprise D. It had some significant advances in shields and firepower. It was interesting to note as well, that the crew seemed to carry very large side arms-- probably high powered phasers.

[The Big Dice]

We invented swords, then we invented chain mail. We invented arrows and crossbows, then we invented plate armor. We invented guns, then we invented kevlar vests.
A kevlar vest won't stop a bullet. It might turn a lethal shot into a survivable one, but it's not going to stop a clean hit. And how long have guns been around? Centuries. Kevlar has been in battlefield use for what, a decade?

I would say that, like everything else in TV and movies, the reason they don't wear armour on Star Trek is time and money , not enough of either.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I think Star Destroyer.net has an analysis of how utterly useless the Federation military is. The theory ended up being that Roddenbery hated his military experiances so much he decided that his perfect society couldn't have anything resembling a military in it.

A phaser is pretty useless as a weapon. It doesn't have any sights and the grip is devoid of ergonomic design. Nobody should be able to hit anything with it.

[The Big Dice]

I think Star Destroyer.net has an analysis of how utterly useless the Federation military is. The theory ended up being that Roddenbery hated his military experiances so much he decided that his perfect society couldn't have anything resembling a military in it.

A phaser is pretty useless as a weapon. It doesn't have any sights and the grip is devoid of ergonomic design. Nobody should be able to hit anything with it.

Star Destroyer.net is an example of what some people call "rabid warsies" in action. Take it with a large pinch of salt and not as your only source and you'll be ok.

As for blasters, they are obviously modified Mausers and Sten guns, right out of the WW2 prop cabinet. And they get fired from the hip all the time, so it's no wonder that nobody can hit a barn from the inside in Star Wars.

[GloatingSwine]

I would say that, like everything else in TV and movies, the reason they don't wear armour on Star Trek is time and money , not enough of either.

Although infantry armour shows up on Babylon 5, and that was made on a fraction of the budget of TNG.

No, the reason they don't have armour is because Gene Roddenberry insisted that the show was about peaceful exploration, and anything to overtly military doesn't fit that theme.

Now, asking why they don't have things like seatbelts in the future is a more sensible question to be asking. Especially as "ship is hit, everyone falls over" is just about the third most common thing in a Star Trek episode.

[rakkoon]

Hey, seatbelts would have destroyed the STNG drinking game!
Roddenberry be praised!

[The Big Dice]

Although infantry armour shows up on Babylon 5, and that was made on a fraction of the budget of TNG.
Those helmets and quilted jackets that they wore in the pilot and almost never again after that? Heck, even Stargate SG1, an overtly modern military show, doesn't put people in body armour that often.

Time and money, it decides everything you see on screen.

[factotum]

I think TOS made it a bit more obvious why they don't wear armour, considering a blast from a hand phaser could completely annihilate a person in that series...something similar happened to Captain what's-his-name when he shot himself after refusing the order to kill Kirk in The Wrath of Khan. For some reason the phasers in TNG are never shown as that powerful!

[Gaius Marius]

Actually, TNG phasers are a lot more powerful. In one episode, Data vaporised an entire pipeline with a single blast.

Anyway, I am not sure I buy into the whole argument of "because armor is useless". Klingons and Cardassians all wear armor, don't they not?

(for the good it do to them...)

[LOTRfan]

Actually, TNG phasers are a lot more powerful. In one episode, Data vaporised an entire pipeline with a single blast.

Anyway, I am not sure I buy into the whole argument of "because armor is useless". Klingons and Cardassians all wear armor, don't they not?

(for the good it do to them...)

Klingons use a variety of melee weapons, though, so they may require it.

[TheFallenOne]

I vaguely remember a DS9 episode where Odo and some security mooks had a firefight with some aliens aboard the station. They had full body suits which either were armor or had some kind of force field built in, cause the phasers had no effect on them. They had to heighen their phaser settings multiple times to finally put them down

[Gaius Marius]

I vaguely remember a DS9 episode where Odo and some security mooks had a firefight with some aliens aboard the station. They had full body suits which either were armor or had some kind of force field built in, cause the phasers had no effect on them. They had to heighen their phaser settings multiple times to finally put them down

I think you talk about The Hunters, no?

[factotum]

Actually, TNG phasers are a lot more powerful. In one episode, Data vaporised an entire pipeline with a single blast.

Against inanimate objects, maybe, but they just don't seem to have the same effect on organic beings.

[TheFallenOne]

I think you talk about The Hunters, no?

google reveals you are correct. Good catch

[Gullintanni]

Against inanimate objects, maybe, but they just don't seem to have the same effect on organic beings.

Unattended objects don't get saving throws? :smallsmile:

[Gaius Marius]

google reveals you are correct. Good catch

I always wondered why Voyager had to come up with the Hirogen when they already had a perfect Hunter culture made up. They could have expanded, and maybe have some sort of relation between Voyager's influence on the Hunters and the Hunter's link to the Dominion.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I always wondered why Voyager had to come up with the Hirogen when they already had a perfect Hunter culture made up. They could have expanded, and maybe have some sort of relation between Voyager's influence on the Hunters and the Hunter's link to the Dominion.

New groups make sense in Voyager, since they're supposed to be unable to get home and all that. If they ran into anything familiar it would ruin the point.

[grimbold]

i always thought that they looked cooler without armor but maybe im just weird

[GloatingSwine]

Unattended objects don't get saving throws? :smallsmile:

On the other hand, any crate which a Federation officer is hiding behind is indestructible.

[chiasaur11]

On the other hand, any crate which a Federation officer is hiding behind is indestructible.

It's a system error.

The unattended quality becomes attached to Kirk's shirts.

[Asheram]

On the other hand, any crate which a Federation officer is hiding behind is indestructible.

The GM is lazy, he doesn't care to proxy a hardness just so that it can be sundered.
And if it has no stats... :smalltongue:

[factotum]

If they ran into anything familiar it would ruin the point.

Yeah, it would have really sucked if, for example, they'd ran into the Borg 2 or 3 times a season. Oh, wait... :smalltongue:

[Sacrieur]

Yeah it's not like they run into the Romulans very often.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah, it would have really sucked if, for example, they'd ran into the Borg 2 or 3 times a season. Oh, wait... :smalltongue:

The Borg were already established as being FROM the Delta Quadrant. NOT running into them would have been stranger to anyone paying attention during TNG.

[Traab]

The few times we see armor, such as on klingons, they seem to get phasered just as easily as everyone else. It may help against melee damage, but no armor seems to do much for phasers. And since 95% of the time they are fighting energy weapon using foes, armor would be useless to them.

[Citrakite]

A kevlar vest won't stop a bullet. It might turn a lethal shot into a survivable one, but it's not going to stop a clean hit. And how long have guns been around? Centuries. Kevlar has been in battlefield use for what, a decade?

I would say that, like everything else in TV and movies, the reason they don't wear armour on Star Trek is time and money , not enough of either.

Kevlar alone can stop some of the smaller calibers like hand guns. He's no doubt referring to the vests with plates though which makes it so you won't even notice you've been shot until later. We also had it for over 40 years. We've protecting from firearms for centuries with metal armor until it got too cumbersome and heavy to wear it thick enough to work. We used it up to the mid 1800's.

Physical armor would be like what your suggesting. Taking a killer hit and make it a knock down one instead. Problem is once your enemies find out you're not dying they just set it to vaporize and that armor goes up with you.

Shielding sounds good or could try a middle ground. Energized armor like the polarized hull plates in Enterprise so even full on level 16 wouldn't vaporize you just some of the armor. I doubt you'd not feel that hit though.

[Mikeavelli]

Star Trek very rarely develops good reasons for there to be face-to-face battles in the first place. At the level of technology present in the Federation, there should almost never be a need for phasers or armor at all.

Most (all?) on-ship battles involve the enemy forces beaming onto the ship. With this in mind, there's no reason why the enemies couldn't just beam hostile forces into holding cells, or out into space instead of beaming their own marines on board to engage in gunfights.

For the surface of planets, starships have sensors that are capable of identifying individual humans (and human-like aliens) from orbit. Beaming technology would once again serve the same purpose as any dedicated military force. Failing that, starship weapons could simply annihilate any army of humans from orbit.

Star Trek writers simply forget about, or ignore, all the technology trek has to offer in order to write a little action and drama into the series. Presumably face-to-face gunfights are rare enough that it's pointless to have federation personnel regularly wearing armor.

[The Glyphstone]

Doesn't ST also have transporter jamming technology? Handheld/personal versions of such would probably be standard-issue for any sort of boarding team.

[Citrakite]

Doesn't ST also have transporter jamming technology? Handheld/personal versions of such would probably be standard-issue for any sort of boarding team.

That's not counting random mineral deposits, energy fields and every other thing that seems to happen that mess up scanners.

[Gaius Marius]

He'll, for all it's good points, The Siege of AR-558 forgot they had photon grenade launchers and wide beam settings on phasers...

[Telonius]

Possible reason number one: shield generators are heavy. The sort of energy needed to power one requires bulky, heavy equipment. Borg can handle that, most other races can't.

Possible reason number two: shield generators require a big power source and would be made out of expensive materials. Unlike a static piece of metal armor or a phaser, shields would have to have energy powering them most of the time to be effective. Phasers can be fired in short bursts; you can carry one all day and it hasn't expended any energy. In order to fit that sort of thing into a portable piece of equipment, you'd need some phlebotinum, or maybe even unobtainium. Either way, that stuff would be better used to power starships than individual troops. Borg don't have to worry about that, since they apparently plug into the ship and get their power that way.

[Marnath]

One thing that always bothered me about Voyager was, if the Borg are so much freaking better at technology, why when the ship was half assimilated, did they remove the borg tech instead of replacing all their crappy stuff with better tech? They even have Seven to make sure none of it would be dangerous.

Speaking of her, how come she's stronger than a vulcan when plot requires, but turns totally helpless the rest of the time? Also, if I was her I'd want to keep the personal shielding. We know that works without the rest of the implants from that one time she went berserk.

[Joran]

One thing that always bothered me about Voyager was, if the Borg are so much freaking better at technology, why when the ship was half assimilated, did they remove the borg tech instead of replacing all their crappy stuff with better tech? They even have Seven to make sure none of it would be dangerous.


If I recall correctly, Voyager was very incompatible with that technology. They kept whatever worked (including building an astrometrics lab) but removed everything that interfered with the systems.



For the surface of planets, starships have sensors that are capable of identifying individual humans (and human-like aliens) from orbit. Beaming technology would once again serve the same purpose as any dedicated military force. Failing that, starship weapons could simply annihilate any army of humans from orbit.

If you're the namby pamby Federation, you could stun everyone in a town square with your ship phasers.

[Manga Shoggoth]

If you're the namby pamby Federation, you could stun everyone in a town square with your ship phasers.

Kirk did that once in the original series...

[Brother Oni]

Possible reason number one: shield generators are heavy. The sort of energy needed to power one requires bulky, heavy equipment. Borg can handle that, most other races can't.

Possible reason number two: shield generators require a big power source and would be made out of expensive materials. Unlike a static piece of metal armor or a phaser, shields would have to have energy powering them most of the time to be effective. Phasers can be fired in short bursts; you can carry one all day and it hasn't expended any energy. In order to fit that sort of thing into a portable piece of equipment, you'd need some phlebotinum, or maybe even unobtainium. Either way, that stuff would be better used to power starships than individual troops. Borg don't have to worry about that, since they apparently plug into the ship and get their power that way.

Except I remember a holodeck episode where Worf and Troi were stuck in a western, and Worf jury rigged a 1/2 shot portable forcefield out of his communicator so that he could survive a gun duel against a holographic Data.

You could say that a phaser inflicts too much damage for a portable forcefield to maintain a sustained defence, but ST has shown that the Federation is capable of making small man portable force fields that can stop small calibre handguns.

[Gaius Marius]

You could say that a phaser inflicts too much damage for a portable forcefield to maintain a sustained defence, but ST has shown that the Federation is capable of making small man portable force fields that can stop small calibre handguns.

With improvised tool (-2 circumstance bonus)
With no basic materials (-2 circumstance bonus)
By Worf (-2 wisdom modifier to Craft skill)

:smalleek:

Mustn't be that hard.

[The Glyphstone]

Klingons get a hefty racial bonus to "Craft: Something Related to Killing People" checks. A pity their entire race decided to retrain out of the Exotic Device Proficiency: Cloaking Device feat though.

[shadow_archmagi]

Klingons get a hefty racial bonus to "Craft: Something Related to Killing People" checks. A pity their entire race decided to retrain out of the Exotic Device Proficiency: Cloaking Device feat though.

Wait, when did they lose all their cloaking ships?

[The Glyphstone]

Wait, when did they lose all their cloaking ships?

It's a TOS/TNG joke - the Klingons were the ones with cloaking ships in the original series, but when TNG came around, suddenly it was the Romulans.

[Gaius Marius]

It's a TOS/TNG joke - the Klingons were the ones with cloaking ships in the original series, but when TNG came around, suddenly it was the Romulans.

hum... no.

Your Trek-Fu is weak, Glyphstone..

[Yora]

Except I remember a holodeck episode where Worf and Troi were stuck in a western, and Worf jury rigged a 1/2 shot portable forcefield out of his communicator so that he could survive a gun duel against a holographic Data.

You could say that a phaser inflicts too much damage for a portable forcefield to maintain a sustained defence, but ST has shown that the Federation is capable of making small man portable force fields that can stop small calibre handguns.

Also keep in mind that in many episodes, the writers are just pulling stuff out of their asses that are never mentioned again after the episode ends.
Particularly when the episode is about holodecks, time travel, or mutations.

[shadow_archmagi]

It's a TOS/TNG joke - the Klingons were the ones with cloaking ships in the original series, but when TNG came around, suddenly it was the Romulans.

The Klingons had cloaking though, too.

In fact, I remember one episode that goes along the lines of

Picard: Hah! I called your bluff! I have the upper hand! Run away!
Romulans: Oh really?
*Romulan ships decloak*
Romulans: As you can see, this fight is three to one. We have the upper hand, and will now secure your ship as a trophy.
Picard: Oh really?
*Klingon ships decloak*
Klingons: Klingons gonna kling!
Klingons: And by Kling we mean kill romulans
Romulans: Cheese it!

[The Glyphstone]

Eh, never mind then.

[shadow_archmagi]

What I want to know is, how did the enterprise get so many copies of Pair Match? Whose decision was that? Was it Guinan, sprucing up the bar? Picard, with his love of old earth junk?

Furthermore, where can I get one? They're going for 250 dollars on ebay.

[The Big Dice]

It's a TOS/TNG joke - the Klingons were the ones with cloaking ships in the original series, but when TNG came around, suddenly it was the Romulans.
Romulans had cloaking devices from their first appearance. But somehow, the Romulans ended up with ships that were exactly the same as the Klingon battlecruiser from TOS, which happened to have a cloaking devide too. And then to complicate things further, the Klingons got Birds of Prey, despite that being the name for the original Romulan ship type.

Yeah, consistency wasn't even an afterthought in the 60s.

[Gaius Marius]

Eh, never mind then.

Plus, the Romulans were the one with the cloaking device in the original serie. That was their thing: they had cloacking and they were an honorable ennemy.

"Balance of Terror" had, apparently, one of the greatest antagonist in Trek history, the Romulan Commander.


Romulans had cloaking devices from their first appearance. But somehow, the Romulans ended up with ships that were exactly the same as the Klingon battlecruiser from TOS, which happened to have a cloaking devide too. And then to complicate things further, the Klingons got Birds of Prey, despite that being the name for the original Romulan ship type.

Yeah, consistency wasn't even an afterthought in the 60s.

The Klingon D-7 cruisers owned by the Romulans (and outfitted with cloaks) only happened because the technician who was bringing the Romulan original Warbird model dropped and broke it. Since they had to shoot the scene anyway, they picked up the Klingons' instead.

That sparked eternal discussion in order to explain why that was, and how the brutish honorable klingons came up with cloaking technology: an alliance with trade of technologies.

[The Bushranger]

Those helmets and quilted jackets that they wore in the pilot and almost never again after that? Heck, even Stargate SG1, an overtly modern military show, doesn't put people in body armour that often.

Time and money, it decides everything you see on screen.

Indeed. It's the same reason you don't see them sending M2 Bradleys through the 'Gate, or why you only saw even the "machine gun on a MALP" once - budget rules all. Now, in-universe, having some sort of "energy dampening weave" in your uniform would make sense.

Speaking of "in universe", I recall reading a set of excellent fanfics once that were the format of interviews with the various Captains of the Enterprise, who commented on how unrealistic "Roddenberry's holodramas" were when it came to representing what actually happened. :smallwink:


New groups make sense in Voyager, since they're supposed to be unable to get home and all that. If they ran into anything familiar it would ruin the point.

Leaving the Delta-Quadrant-based Borg (and their bizzare changes from TNG) aside...lessee...Romulans, Cardassians, Klingons...nope, nothing familiar to see here, move along...


It's a TOS/TNG joke - the Klingons were the ones with cloaking ships in the original series, but when TNG came around, suddenly it was the Romulans.

Actually it was the Romulans first - one of the episodes largely considered to be the best of TOS involved Kirk and Spock sneaking aboard a Romulan vessel to steal its cloaking device. IIRC, the novel canon and/or fanon is that the Klingons got cloaking technology from the Romulans in a period of detenté not too long after TOS, and by TNG they both had it and used it well.

Regarding the reality of Trek - while SD's discussions will, of course, be biased torwards the SW side of things, there was a set of nifty multiverse stories on Spacebattles awhile back in which the Trekverse's political and military history was viewed through the lens of reality - and then brutally pwn'd based on that realistic analysis...

[comicshorse]

Leaving the Delta-Quadrant-based Borg (and their bizzare changes from TNG) aside...lessee...Romulans, Cardassians, Klingons...nope, nothing familiar to see here, move along...



Also more Federation and Ferengi

[Marnath]

If I recall correctly, Voyager was very incompatible with that technology. They kept whatever worked (including building an astrometrics lab) but removed everything that interfered with the systems.


Actually, it was compatible, Chief Torres was talking to the Captain about how some of the borg stuff in the cargo bay was more efficient/advanced than theirs. As far as the astrophysics lab, that was actually invented later by Seven utilizing as much federation technology as borg tricks.

[shadow_archmagi]

Star Trek writers simply forget about, or ignore, all the technology trek has to offer in order to write a little action and drama into the series.

To be fair, you could say that about almost any show. I'm sure if you sat down and thought about it, there's an easy and boring solution to almost any problem that gets solved with a gunfight on TV.

[The Glyphstone]

To be fair, you could say that about almost any show. I'm sure if you sat down and thought about it, there's an easy and boring solution to almost any problem that gets solved with a gunfight on TV.

Notable exception being things like "I need to shoot that guy".

[warty goblin]

Actually, it was compatible, Chief Torres was talking to the Captain about how some of the borg stuff in the cargo bay was more efficient/advanced than theirs. As far as the astrophysics lab, that was actually invented later by Seven utilizing as much federation technology as borg tricks.
Just being able to recognize something as being more advanced, doesn't mean you can use it. I mean the Crysis 2 is hellova lot more technically advanced that DooM, something anybody who looked at it for a few minutes would realize. Doesn't mean they could get it to run on Windows 95 though.

[Gullintanni]

Just being able to recognize something as being more advanced, doesn't mean you can use it. I mean the Crysis 2 is hellova lot more technically advanced that DooM, something anybody who looked at it for a few minutes would realize. Doesn't mean they could get it to run on Windows 95 though.

Please. In 10 years, you know which game we all remember. :smallwink:

[Gaius Marius]

Please. In 10 years, you know which game we all remember. :smallwink:

Wait, there's a Crysis 2?

Just to show exactly how much it made a bang. Crysis made a fuss, but the 2nd installment? Meh

[leafman]

Instead of personal sheilds, they could just use whatever they make the walls from, they rarely get more than a scorch mark. :smallamused:

[The Bushranger]

Instead of personal sheilds, they could just use whatever they make the walls from, they rarely get more than a scorch mark. :smallamused:

Funny how the walls are always bullet-/plasma-/phaser-proof, isn't it? :smallwink:

[The Glyphstone]

Funny how the walls are always bullet-/plasma-/phaser-proof, isn't it? :smallwink:

Except at Mos Eisley Spaceport, where construction materials are apparently supplied by the lowest bidder.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Speaking of "in universe", I recall reading a set of excellent fanfics once that were the format of interviews with the various Captains of the Enterprise, who commented on how unrealistic "Roddenberry's holodramas" were when it came to representing what actually happened. :smallwink:

You wouldn't happen to have a link to that, would you?

[Gaius Marius]

Except at Mos Eisley Spaceport, where construction materials are apparently supplied by the lowest bidder.

I don't remember the occurance you are mentionning...? :smallconfused:

[hamishspence]

Big chunks of material blasted out of the walls of Docking Bay 94 by Han's blaster.

In the novel, it's referred to as a "dirt pit" but in the movie, the walls look more like concrete.

Hence there's a bit of contention as to whether Han's blaster is a terrifying weapon capable of shattering huge amounts of concrete at a time, or not.

[Gaius Marius]

I do remember one of the stormtrooper carrying with him a BFG. Did we ever saw it in action?

[hamishspence]

Not in the movies as I recall.

In ESB, we see the snowtroopers setting up a tripod weapon to shoot at the Falcon- but it's blasted before they can fire it.

[chiasaur11]

Funny how the walls are always bullet-/plasma-/phaser-proof, isn't it? :smallwink:

Not in X-Com or its derivatives!

Think there was a Warhammer 40K X-Com style TBS.

You could blow up walls in that, right?

[Traab]

Leaving the Delta-Quadrant-based Borg (and their bizzare changes from TNG) aside...lessee...Romulans, Cardassians, Klingons...nope, nothing familiar to see here, move along...

Yeah but they had a reason for most of that. Werent the klingons like these psycho pilgrims who had been heading off into the delta quadrant for the last 70 years or something?

As for the cardassians, they didnt meet them in the delta quadrant, they found a micro wormhole and made contact, only to find out much later that it also went back in time to the days of janeways grandpa or something like that. The message was held onto for decades until the proper time to send it to starfleet. Or maybe that was the romulans, i cant remember anymore.

[Gaius Marius]

Romulan, and it never reached StarFleet

We also had Ferengi, and Federation

[The Bushranger]

You wouldn't happen to have a link to that, would you?

Unfortunatly, no - this was a long time ago on an EZ-Board forum, that got Yuku'd and lost most of its posts. :smallyuk:

[Ravens_cry]

Romulan, and it never reached StarFleet

We also had Ferengi, and Federation
Ferengi actually made sense if you watched an earlier The Next Generation episode (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Barzan_wormhole).
Federation on the other hand, yeah, I got nothing. Voyager, so much opportunity,so much waste. Some of my favourite characters were on Voyager, the Doctor and B'Elanna Torres come to mind, as well as some excellent episodes, I like "Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy", but to me it felt like it really wasted some opportunities to grow as a franchise.

[The Big Dice]

Voyager, so much opportunity,so much waste. Some of my favourite characters were on Voyager, the Doctor and B'Elanna Torres come to mind, as well as some excellent episodes, I like "Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy", but to me it felt like it really wasted some opportunities to grow as a franchise.
I agree. But Voyager wasn't about expanding and developing the franchise so much as it was about protecting The Franchise. And unfortunately that meant that change was off the table, because if you change it it stops being Star Trek. Or so the suits would think.

[Gaius Marius]

I agree. But Voyager wasn't about expanding and developing the franchise so much as it was about protecting The Franchise. And unfortunately that meant that change was off the table, because if you change it it stops being Star Trek. Or so the suits would think.

Battlestar Galactica was more like Voyager than Voyager ever been.

SFDebris had some very good point to suggest as to what would have made Voyager memorable. Having an experience Maquis captain, but the inexperienced Starfleet First Officer who had to take command would have made a very interesting dynamic. Keeping conflict between the two camps might have been good.

Also, if Janeway had been less "I'm right because I said so", she would have been more bearable. The whole idea of alliances should have been played a LOT more. I understand they don't want to trust the Kazon, so keep them as ennemies. But.. how about a Talaxian Fleet? They used the Talaxians a few times. Apparently, they are a homeless people who had their home wiped. How about having Voyager team up with the Talaxians, using them to gather ressources while Voyager offer them protection? (or the other way around, using Voyager's technology for food and supplies, while the Talaxians protect Voyager).

Neelix could have been the de-facto representative of the Talaxians on Voyager. So he would have had a darn reason to be in the Magic Meeting Room.

[Tyndmyr]

A kevlar vest won't stop a bullet. It might turn a lethal shot into a survivable one, but it's not going to stop a clean hit. And how long have guns been around? Centuries. Kevlar has been in battlefield use for what, a decade?

At the risk of being pedantic, anti-firearm body armor has existed since roughly the invention of the bullet. Modifications to plate armor, silk shirts, many layers of cloth, coats of plate, etc. Hell, snipers in WW1 frequently used giant metal shields.

And yes, depending on bullet and class of armor, a kevlar vest can in fact stop a bullet.

People'll do their best to stop anything what might kill them.

Edit: I do agree with the practical reasons for not including armor on TV, though. Money. Meh. Also, it tends to make the individual actors somewhat less distinctive. In particular, it's quite rare for anyone in any series to wear helmets that actually, yknow, protect you, for any length of time, no matter how much it might make sense. If they wear helmets for long, they're invariably pretty much just glass.

[comicshorse]

Battlestar Galactica was more like Voyager than Voyager ever been.



Agreed, though they did get it briefly right in 'Year of Hell' then hit the re-set button and threw it all away

[Gaius Marius]

Agreed, though they did get it briefly right in 'Year of Hell' then hit the re-set button and threw it all away

Can't really blame them for hitting that reset button, however. It was getting very depressing...

But it was a helluva show.

[Derthric]

I would like to point out that in Star Trek III through VI we see security officers with Armor vests and helmets on. And in Seige of Ar-558 you see a combat uniform on the federation infantry.

That being said I have nothing else on why there is no armor other than what has been stated here.

[Gaius Marius]

I would like to point out that in Star Trek III through VI we see security officers with Armor vests and helmets on. And in Seige of Ar-558 you see a combat uniform on the federation infantry.

That being said I have nothing else on why there is no armor other than what has been stated here.

Actually, I believe you see the infantry uniforms (black) in "Nor the battle to the strong" rather than the Siege of AR-558.

In 558, they all seem to wear the grey fleet uniforms.

[Traab]

Battlestar Galactica was more like Voyager than Voyager ever been.

SFDebris had some very good point to suggest as to what would have made Voyager memorable. Having an experience Maquis captain, but the inexperienced Starfleet First Officer who had to take command would have made a very interesting dynamic. Keeping conflict between the two camps might have been good.

Also, if Janeway had been less "I'm right because I said so", she would have been more bearable. The whole idea of alliances should have been played a LOT more. I understand they don't want to trust the Kazon, so keep them as ennemies. But.. how about a Talaxian Fleet? They used the Talaxians a few times. Apparently, they are a homeless people who had their home wiped. How about having Voyager team up with the Talaxians, using them to gather ressources while Voyager offer them protection? (or the other way around, using Voyager's technology for food and supplies, while the Talaxians protect Voyager).

Neelix could have been the de-facto representative of the Talaxians on Voyager. So he would have had a darn reason to be in the Magic Meeting Room.


That actually could have been an interesting idea. Bring the talaxians with them back home and we have a new race of traders who ARENT the hated ferengi jerks! Just have to setup some ways to protect them from being wiped out by the big eared bastards. Only downside to that idea is, it transforms the entire focus from a single ship heading for home into a vast armada heading through space. Star trek has always been about one ship one crew. There are brief times when they take charge of a fleet for one reason or another, but I dont think it would have worked out too well as a permanent change. Also, why would the talaxians have WANTED to make what looked to be a 70 year long voyage through both known and unknown dangers just on the off chance that enough of them would survive the journey to start up a new home?

Anyways, neelix was always involved because he was the expert on the general vicinity. He was the only local besides kess, that was on board, so he had to be included so he could dish out vague info on new species. Of course, then they crossed over past his realm of knowledge and they turned him into a self appointed ambassador/morale officer/cook.

[Gaius Marius]

Only downside to that idea is, it transforms the entire focus from a single ship heading for home into a vast armada heading through space. Star trek has always been about one ship one crew. There are brief times when they take charge of a fleet for one reason or another, but I dont think it would have worked out too well as a permanent change.

Just like Star Trek is about a Starship, and not a Space Station?

Dude, your argument is the very thing that destroyed Voyager. It's conservative thinking about what Star Trek "should be", without trying to break new frontier. Why is it a show that broke so much ground in its time has to become a fixed formula that is simplier than numbered-color painting?

Voyager had a breakthrough concept, which was completely, and utterly destroyed by the desire of the Execs to make it "TNG 2.0". Like SF Debris pointed out, the production number of this show picked up @ 800, not @ 100, like any NEW show should.

Gathering a rag-tag band of homeless people and making them work together to surpass challenges, using the ideals of the Federation to make it work, how wouldn't that be a beautiful hommage to Gene Roddenburry's ideal of an unified future? They started with the Maquis crew members, then the Talaxians. Maybe also the Ocampa?

Voyager wasn't about "Going out to meet new people", it was about GETTING HOME. It's, like, the COMPLETE opposite of the original Star Trek + TNG. The only and single thing it changed in the way the people behaved was the so-occasional "We might get home this week!" episodes everybody knew would never work.



Also, why would the talaxians have WANTED to make what looked to be a 70 year long voyage through both known and unknown dangers just on the off chance that enough of them would survive the journey to start up a new home?

Hum... because they were scattered, homeless, persecuted and bullied by the local Big Power; the Kazons?

Getting out and settling a new world might have been the right move to make.


Anyways, neelix was always involved because he was the expert on the general vicinity. He was the only local besides kess, that was on board, so he had to be included so he could dish out vague info on new species. Of course, then they crossed over past his realm of knowledge and they turned him into a self appointed ambassador/morale officer/cook.

And he did a horrible job at everything he was involved in :smallamused:

[Traab]

I understand your point, and I suppose they could have just as easily taken voyager, and tried to form Federation 2.0 in the delta quadrant instead of trying to get home. It definitely would have been an interesting idea to setup. And they still could have had many of the same adventures just with the different focus of trying to either get new species to join, or trying to protect the fledgling federation. But there is a reason the execs didnt change the entire thing too greatly. It would be like, taking a game series such as final fantasy, then releasing a new game, Final Fantasy Cookoff : Where Food is Magic! Its just not final fantasy anymore, despite the title.

Yeah ds9 involved a space station, not a single ship, but the general feel of it was the same, commander sisko is in charge, he has his crew, and they go on adventures as they try to keep that section of space from falling into war and anarchy. They did humanitarian missions, rescue missions, war missions, diplomatic missions, research and discovery missions, just like with the other star trek shows.

And yes, voyager was a series focused on getting home, but once again it was following the same general theme of the star treks series. A single crew, with an overarching mission, meeting new species, getting into fights, making peace, learning new stuff, and boldly going where no one (in the federation) had gone before. If you change too much, its no longer recognizable and you might as well just create a new series entirely, and not trade off the star trek name.

Back to the first paragraph, I suggest that this be the next star trek series produced. Stranded in the, I dunno, omega quadrant, the crew of the New Enterprise has no hope of ever returning. They decide instead that they should find a new home, and meet various new species along the way, some good, some not so good. They form alliances with the good species, and eventually decide that since the federation has worked so well for them, they should try to form it out here as well. We could even come up with an interesting 5th/6th season where they make contact with the original federation, and tensions break out because the New Enterprise crew are basically part of the ruling body of the new federation and noones sure where to go from here. The new federation has its own vast set of alliances, and they may not be willing to just be absorbed by some group of alliances they know nothing about.

*EDIT* Aww, neelix wasnt so bad! He did pretty well for a space garbage picker suddenly thrust into this strange situation.

[Gaius Marius]

Not necessarely Federation 2.0,as they were all homeless people. But just a Rag-tag fleet of people sticking together for common purpose and protection. Still trying to reach Earth, because they knew they would be allowed to settle somewhere in the Federation.

I liked the idea of them having a destination, a goal. But they never really, really made it work beyond, as I said, the tease-success that we'd know would never work.

[bloodtide]

No seriously, I keep asking me this while I watch through Star Trek tNG and see crew member after crew member be shot.

For all of their intelligence, they can't realize that going into hostile conditions might warrant some protection? A personal shield? Anything really. And why do commanders go down without any sort of personal guard?

The "Real" answer is that it's a TV show, of course. So you run into these basic problems:

1.Visibility--More so then anything else viewers must be able to see the actors. Specifically their faces and emotions. This is why you almost never see any type of head gear at all. And even when you do, it does not stay on very long.

2.They are Actors--At the end of the day, they are just people pretending to go to an alien planet. And even more so, armor is heavy and restrictive...even fake armor. It would take way too much time to get an actor all fake armored up, and then they could not move around very much, would have trouble acting, and would over heat quickly.

3.The Cost--Fake armor is expensive, even more so to have from fitting armor for at least half your cast. And force fields are even more expensive as they add to the effects budget.

4.Identification--Fans what to see their favorite actor. You will notice that each character is very unique and stands out...for easy identification. If everyone was in armor, they would all blend together and look the same.

5.Plot Problems--Armor could easily make the heroes 'boring and invincible'. And no show can have that. And even more importantly, it's much, much cooler to have the heroes 'duck behind some rocks'(you know, like in a western).

[GloatingSwine]

The "Real" answer is that it's a TV show, of course. So you run into these basic problems:


And for all of this, we see infantry armour in Babylon 5, also a TV show, also on a budget (far less of one than Star Trek).

And not just in the pilot either, both the station security forces and the boarding troops in Severed Dreams are all armoured, even the Narns seem to have heavy flak vests on.

This is not an excuse.

TNG is explained by Roddenberry's desire not to have militaristic things in the show, but DS9 really doesn't have an excuse. Especially since it's quite possible for most Star Trek weapons to wound but not kill, but the only armour on the show is plot armour, so it only happens to main characters.

Having, for instance, the infantry team in Siege of AR-558 wearing combat vests and helmets would have made far more sense than just having them trolling around in standard Federation pyjamas, it would have enhanced not detracted from the episode by making it look like they were actually in a serious combat environment.

[Hawriel]

The secutity officers in star trek III and VI wear armor.

In ST III two guards respond to a brake in on spocks quarters.

IN ST VI two guards respond to a phaser being fired in the galley. The pot that was the target was vaporised, wile the mashed potatos inside where left untouched. Could have been doe.

[The Bushranger]

Not necessarely Federation 2.0,as they were all homeless people. But just a Rag-tag fleet of people sticking together for common purpose and protection. Still trying to reach Earth, because they knew they would be allowed to settle somewhere in the Federation.

There's just one problem with that idea that I can see. It's eerily familiar...

Fleeing from the Borg tyranny, U.S.S. Voyager leads a rag-tag fugitive fleet on a lonely quest... a shining planet known as Earth.

[Gaius Marius]

There's just one problem with that idea that I can see. It's eerily familiar...

Fleeing from the Borg tyranny, U.S.S. Voyager leads a rag-tag fugitive fleet on a lonely quest... a shining planet known as Earth.

And thata about where the similarities end.

Like I said, BSG was more what Voyager should have been than Voyager ever ambitions to be

[Traab]

I still dont think it would have had the star trek "feel" to it if they were leading an armada for the duration of the series. Now, if you watched Andromeda, with kevin sorbo, I can see it being something along those lines, only without the time travel. Janeway and crew are hell bent on rebuilding the federation out here in the delta quadrant, and spend the series flying from planet to planet trying to make allies, put out fires, settle disputes, and fight off invaders who think this new federation is weak and ripe for conquest. Alpha quadrant has cardassians and romulans, delta quadrant has bedians and kazon, with hirogen raiders and eventually, when they spread out far enough, the borg.

They could still get seven, and be brought into the war against 8472 by bargaining for neutrality for their new federation. Yeah everyone knows its a neutrality that likely wont last very long, but its better than open war. Or, they could try to work WITH 8472 to defeat the borg, and capture seven at some point. That could be a rather interesting twist on the storyline huh? They ally with 8472 and help them to wipe out the borg in exchange for either an alliance or neutrality with the fluidic space aliens.

[The Big Dice]

Like I said, BSG was more what Voyager should have been than Voyager ever ambitions to be
Except BSG had lead actors saying it wasn't really sci-fi. And what happened to the Cylon plan? They were obviously making that one up as they went along. Then there's all that pseudo-religious nonsesnse that got tacked on in the last couple of seasons.

Even BSG had some pretty major flaws.

[GloatingSwine]

Macross is more BSG than BSG ever was ;)

[GloatingSwine]

SFDebris had some very good point to suggest as to what would have made Voyager memorable. Having an experience Maquis captain, but the inexperienced Starfleet First Officer who had to take command would have made a very interesting dynamic. Keeping conflict between the two camps might have been good.


It's worth watching Chuck's review of Scorpion (http://sfdebris.blip.tv/file/4996517/) where he points out that the character dynamic that Janeway and Chakotay had there was what the show should have had all along.

Sadly it only lasted one three-parter before the USS Reset Button earned her name once again.

[Eric Tolle]

The interesting thing is that phasers seemed to get weaker and less advanced between the classic series and New Generation. The old phasers were multipurpose tools, and really didn't need sights because you could simply set them to wide-area stun. The new phasers seemed more like uprated lasers.

All I can think of is that the Federation Safety Council decided that phasers were too powerful and reduced their capabilities. Kind of the same way the FSC keeps the ability of transporters to be used as cloning or regeneration machines out of general knowledge.

[hamishspence]

Going by Memory Alpha, a couple of the most impressive phaser scenes are in TNG though:


■The standard level 16 setting on a type 2 phaser can be used to vaporize tunnels through rock, large enough to crawl through. (TNG: "Chain of Command, Part I")

The level 16 wide-field setting can easily destroy half of a large building with a single shot. (TNG: "Frame of Mind")