WARNING: Fancy Pants Cheat

[No brains]

I found a cheat in character creation that some DMs might want to look into to keep things from descending into shenanigan territory.

This is a cheat that only really matters at low levels, so maybe this isn't worth the post, but if the tier system teaches us anything, we're better safe than sorry.

Free. It is a fun word that probably shouldn't exist. It implies no consequences, but should really be thought as to imply no immediate consequences. Leave it to a PC to doggedly dig fro every 'free' advantage they can get against their oh-so-cruel DM.

I think I've ranted long enough to throw off a casual glance here...

Be careful when giving out free clothes. Some players will seek to get the most expensive clothes they can get in order to trade them in for mechanically superior peasant clothing. If you let a player start off with a set of royal clothing, they can, at their first convenience, sell it off for peasant clothes and net around 100gp. Not only can this break up the encounter structure you have set up, but it can also bankrupt a town (see DMG gp by town chart) and prevent other players from buying more reasonable supplies.

A very quick remedy is to actually read the rules; the Cleric's vestments, cold weather outfit, courtier's outfit, noble's outfit, and royal outfit are not selectable for free clothing as seen on PHB 111. While a player can still, perfectly by-rules, milk almost 10gp by trading their free explorer's outfit for peasant clothing, you still have significantly curbed cash-jockeying.

The very best way to combat this is to have all players start off in peasant clothing. Players will argue that the other clothing is necessary because is has pockets, etc. To counter, say, "Peasant clothing has pockets too. It has enough pockets for whatever you need to cram in there." You can also tell them to buy belt pouches, but at 1gp and 1/2lb, you become the gp jockey for hocking an item that doesn't list any mechanical benefit for its costs.

I don't know if I 'discovered' the fancy-pants cheat, but I started thinking about it when an 'optimistic' friend was very insistent on getting an explorer's outfit even when it put him into a medium load. Has anyone else encountered or thought about this cheat? Do you consider it a cheat? What dod you do about it?

Thanks for reading and sharing.

[McSmack]

I've thought of the idea before, but never given it too much consideration. In my experience by the time the PC's finish their first adventure the extra 100g they could make by 'cheating' is hardly relevant.

If they're in a town small enough that that 100g is going to crash the local economy,as a DM, I wouldn't let them sell it. Simply put the shop owner doesn't have the kind of funds to purchase a set of used royal clothing, and none of his customers have the kind of income needed to purchase it. So it's bad for business for him to buy it.

[Greenish]

This is not a computer game. If you're going to start out at royal outfit, you better have a backstory to match.

Besides, if your players start by trying to scam themselves a few gp, soon they'll be disassembling ladders, and on the long run that's fun for nobody. They'll learn, hopefully.

[Darrin]

Players will argue that the other clothing is necessary because is has pockets, etc. To counter, say, "Peasant clothing has pockets too. It has enough pockets for whatever you need to cram in there."


Note: Do *NOT* make this argument if anyone from S.C.A. is within earshot.

[Cartigan]

This is not a computer game. If you're going to start out at royal outfit, you better have a backstory to match.

Besides, if your players start by trying to scam themselves a few gp, soon they'll be disassembling ladders, and on the long run that's fun for nobody. They'll learn, hopefully.

No, no, they'll be assembling ladders. Ladders are worth money, quarterstaves are free.

[Greenish]

No, no, they'll be assembling ladders. Ladders are worth money, quarterstaves are free.If the staves are 10' long, it'd be better to sell them as 10' poles (which are 2 sp compared to the pitiful 2 cp cost of a 10' ladder).

[arguskos]

No, no, they'll be assembling ladders. Ladders are worth money, quarterstaves are free.
A ladder costs less than 2 ten-ft poles sell for, and can be broken down into them. That's the ladder exploit. You buy up a ton of ladders (4 for the price of 1 ten foot pole), break them into ten foot poles (they are explicitly ten feet long) and sell the poles at half price. You're netting money each time. Ta-da! You broke the economy (not as bad as the wall of salt exploit though).

[Boci]

DM: "Okay, everyone's got their character sheets for this new game? Good. You are in a silk pavillion infront a worn but solid oak table on which is spread a detailed tacticle map of the Avargi Valley, your position on the Nokran ridge clearly indicated. You await Captain Trogan to arrieve and explain the details of this special mission he kindly volunteered for. Oh an John, your character is naked for some unfathomable reason"

[Kylarra]

I don't know if I 'discovered' the fancy-pants cheat, but I started thinking about it when an 'optimistic' friend was very insistent on getting an explorer's outfit even when it put him into a medium load. Has anyone else encountered or thought about this cheat? Do you consider it a cheat? What dod you do about it?Speaking of reading carefully, the first outfit doesn't count against the character's weight capacity. (PHB131)

Now, an amusingly strict reading of this is that if they decide to sell their first outfit, all subsequent outfits do start counting against weight, so you may trade your explorer's outfit for 5g (sellback is usually half) and then spend 1sp on that peasant's outfit, but you'll be up 2lbs because it's no longer the special starting outfit. :smallsmile:

[Diarmuid]

I dont really see this as any kind of "cheat", it's more an exploit of a houserule. I know in my games, if it's on your character sheet, you'd better have accounted for it in your WBL.

Nothing in life is free.

[Kylarra]

I dont really see this as any kind of "cheat", it's more an exploit of a houserule. I know in my games, if it's on your character sheet, you'd better have accounted for it in your WBL.

Nothing in life is free.How is it a houserule exploit? The rules governing the first outfit are explicitly written in the rules. If anything, not having it is the houserule.

[Flickerdart]

100gp isn't important beyond 1st level, and not really even then. So you can buy an extra sword, big whoop.

[gbprime]

Seriously, if you start trading clothing and ladders to make money, then I'll just have you fight impoverished monsters for a while. It works out.

[Telonius]

Seriously, if you start trading clothing and ladders to make money, then I'll just have you fight impoverished monsters for a while. It works out.

My preferred method is having them fight the local carpenters' and tailors' guilds. If things get too out of hand, set them up against the Loyal Order of Tax Collectors, for failure to pay the Royal Value Added Tax. :smallbiggrin:

[Swooper]

Seriously, if you start trading clothing and ladders to make money, then I'll just have you fight impoverished monsters for a while. It works out.
Better yet: Make them fight impoverished poleturners gone broke when the PCs undercut them on 10' poles. :smallamused:

[gbprime]

Better yet: Make them fight impoverished poleturners gone broke when the PCs undercut them on 10' poles. :smallamused:

That's right up there with the rampaging mob of respectable scientists. :smallcool:

[RaginChangeling]

If someone is really desperate for that <100 GP, specifically the 10 you were explicitly calling out with the Explorer's Outfit, um what's the huge deal here? Thats not enough money to buy anything worthwhile, or to change the dynamics of first level. Its still impossible to afford Masterwork equipment, and it might let someone get a horse or something but... is that really that big of a deal?

[CTrees]

See, a quick rust monster/ooze or four can easily take care of anything they buy with the added wealth at that low a level. Alternatively, they're level one PCs. Pity the pickpocket they didn't realize they encountered after selling their clothes was level six. Or that the merchant was a low level mage using prestidigitation to make copper coins look like gold (if your PCs aren't paranoid enough to use detect magic on any payment... they should be).

Lots of solutions to this very minor problem.

[CTrees]

That's right up there with the rampaging mob of respectable scientists. :smallcool:

Armed with crowbars and orange and black protective gear? That could be seriously scary, haha.:smallbiggrin:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I generally let my PC's start off with one MW piece of gear at level 1...

[dextercorvia]

I generally let my PC's start off with one MW piece of gear at level 1...

I choose the Masterwork Heavy Ballista from HoB.

[Boci]

I choose the Masterwork Heavy Ballista from HoB.

Why stop there? I'll take a +1 use activated surge of fortune vorpal shortsword. Magic items are masterwork after all. Don't worry, its for...flavour.

[Jack Zander]

This isn't really a big deal at all. Not in comparison to the cost of a wizard's spellbook at least.

[Diarmuid]

How is it a houserule exploit? The rules governing the first outfit are explicitly written in the rules. If anything, not having it is the houserule.

The OP is talking about the PC's taking Royal Outfits and Cleric Vestments.

The PHB mentions a specific list that the PC can choose from, and neither of those are available on that list.

Artisan Outfit
Entertainer Outfit
Explorer Outfit
Monk Outfit
Peasant Outfit
Scholar Outfit
Traveler Outfit

Of those, the most expensive one is the the Explorer's Outift at 10g. So all this talk of selling your 200gp Royal Outfit for 100g is clearly not in the rules. Hence my calling it a houserule where you let your PC pick out any clothing outfit they want.

[JaronK]

I'm really not seeing how selling the Explorer's outfit for 5gp and getting a Peasant's Outfit cheaper matters to anyone. Seriously, that's far too little gp for anyone to care.

What would be funnier is buying colossal quarterstaves (free) and selling them as wood (a commodity).

JaronK

[Diarmuid]

Jaron,

The OP was talking about abusing that system with the Royal Outfit and potentially netting lvl 1 PC's 100gp.

100gp buys a lot at lvl 1.

[Analytica]

This is a joke, right? :smalleek:

If not, then... Really, in any game where the players are not concerned with what their characters are wearing beyond what mechanical benefits the choices provide in a 4-battles-per-day lifestyle, why include clothes at all? For that matter, why bother to include names, appearances, or backstories, except to qualify for character options?

[Greenish]

Jaron,

The OP was talking about abusing that system with the Royal Outfit and potentially netting lvl 1 PC's 100gp.

100gp buys a lot at lvl 1.OP also mentioned that it's against the rules in his first post.

Though given that, I'm not sure about the point of this thread, especially of the all-capitals "WARNING" tag. :smallconfused:

[Boci]

What would be funnier is buying colossal quarterstaves (free) and selling them as wood (a commodity).

JaronK

Extra points if its the same shopkeeper.


This is a joke, right? :smalleek:

If not, then... Really, in any game where the players are not concerned with what their characters are wearing beyond what mechanical benefits the choices provide in a 4-battles-per-day lifestyle, why include clothes at all? For that matter, why bother to include names, appearances, or backstories, except to qualify for character options?

That's a bit harsh. Sometimes players are just more interested in the setting than in the colour of their robe's stitching. I'd have nothing wrong with a character who asked me if it was okay if his character started with an expensive suit that he was subsequently going to sell to give the him/the party a starting boost, provided he was clear with his intentions and explained it is his background story.

[Diarmuid]

OP also mentioned that it's against the rules in his first post.

Though given that, I'm not sure about the point of this thread, especially of the all-capitals "WARNING" tag. :smallconfused:

Eh, I called it a silly houserule and someone said it was perfectly legit by the books. I continued to defend my position.

[Greenish]

Eh, I called it a silly houserule and someone said it was perfectly legit by the books. I continued to defend my position.The post you're defending does read like you're saying that the starter clothes come of the character's WBL just like everything else, which is what Kylarra questioned.

[Cog]

There is a very real danger if you make characters pay for their starting outfits.

Still here? Well, that's your choice. This guy is a Wizard (http://thetorchonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/zedd.jpg).

[Boci]

There is a very real danger if you make characters pay for their starting outfits.

Still here? Well, that's your choice. This guy is a Wizard (http://thetorchonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/zedd.jpg).

Sure beats the hell out of a boiled shoe.

[Diarmuid]

The post you're defending does read like you're saying that the starter clothes come of the character's WBL just like everything else, which is what Kylarra questioned.

What I said was that in my game, the starting clothes come out of the WBL.

I also said that the OP's "cheat" was not legit and seemed to come from a houserule. I guess I could have been more explicit in that I thought allowing "any" clothes at 1st lvl was the houserule part but I figured it was mostly implied.

[Cog]

The OP actually pointed out the shorter list of what's really allowed for free.

[Greenish]

What I said was that in my game, the starting clothes come out of the WBL.

I also said that the OP's "cheat" was not legit and seemed to come from a houserule.Maybe, but that's not how your post reads. Just pointing that out.

[Tyndmyr]

This isn't really a big deal at all. Not in comparison to the cost of a wizard's spellbook at least.

This. There are lots of level one gold exploits for amounts that quickly become trivial. They are not worth bothering with.

[LansXero]

It could be an interesting background choice though. Its not like 100gp matters at all, first level or not.

"He was a well-off merchant, but upon taking the mantle of adventuring he sold his old fancy clothes for more practical gear, and equiprment and tools for those he went adventuring with".

[faceroll]

I don't see how the ladder to 10' pole is at all RAW. You require a craft check and 1/3 of the cost in raw materials to make a 10' pole. You need like 4 ladders to make 1 ten foot pole, and it takes 1 day to make.

[WildPyre]

I don't see how the ladder to 10' pole is at all RAW. You require a craft check and 1/3 of the cost in raw materials to make a 10' pole. You need like 4 ladders to make 1 ten foot pole, and it takes 1 day to make.

Yeah I never understood it either. It's like people assume that since a ladder is 10 feet tall it must be made out of 10 foot poles... problem is that it's more likely made out of 10 foot planks with either other planks nailed to them, or holes drilled into them for rungs.


Also as a DM if a player tried anything too hinky with selling starting gear well... they need to find somebody willing to find it and luckily the DM controls everyone not a PC.

[Bladesinger]

Aren't monk's clothes able to be treated as rope? In that case, could you sell your belt as rope?

[AsteriskAmp]

A ladder costs less than 2 ten-ft poles sell for, and can be broken down into them. That's the ladder exploit. You buy up a ton of ladders (4 for the price of 1 ten foot pole), break them into ten foot poles (they are explicitly ten feet long) and sell the poles at half price. You're netting money each time. Ta-da! You broke the economy (not as bad as the wall of salt exploit though).

What's the wall of salt exploit?

[Cog]

1) Cast Wall of Salt.
2) Sell salt.

[Boci]

What's the wall of salt exploit?

Cast wall of salt/flesh to salt and sell the salt. Its worth quite a bit.

[Zanzanar]

What would be funnier is buying colossal quarterstaves (free) and selling them as wood (a commodity).

People do that in the real world. They're called "lumberjacks."

[InVinoVeritas]

People do that in the real world. They're called "lumberjacks."

And, according to RAW, that's OK.

[DragonOfUndeath]

Cast wall of salt/flesh to salt and sell the salt. Its worth quite a bit.

Also applicable are Wall of *anything except Force*, Creation, Major Creation, etc.
If you can create it, you can sell it and you can create it again tomorrow

[HunterOfJello]

I remember a DM for a pbp game saying that we could add any items from the Equipment lists into our inventory, but were limited by gp for armor and weapons. I added a few Galleys, two Warships and a bunch of Sailing ships. The ships all have a - for their weight value too.

That game fell apart before it ever started, but the DM never did notice my fleet of ships when checking the party's sheets. It's a real shame too, it would have been fun to play a lvl 1 character who is also a pirate lord.

[Darth Stabber]

Yeah I never understood it either. It's like people assume that since a ladder is 10 feet tall it must be made out of 10 foot poles... problem is that it's more likely made out of 10 foot planks with either other planks nailed to them, or holes drilled into them for rungs.


Also as a DM if a player tried anything too hinky with selling starting gear well... they need to find somebody willing to find it and luckily the DM controls everyone not a PC.

Yeah, 10ft pole would be lathed into a cylinder, a ladder's main posts would not. You could use half a ladder as a ghetto 10ft pole, but without easy access to a lathe, I would not let it be sold as a 10ft pole. 'Grats, you saved a gold piece and aquired extra firewood, merry christmas.

[ILM]

Also applicable are Wall of *anything except Force*, Creation, Major Creation, etc.
If you can create it, you can sell it and you can create it again tomorrow
Plenty of pissed off customers when the Minor/Major Creationed stuff starts disappearind a day (tops) later. :smalltongue:

[KillianHawkeye]

WARNING: Breaking the rules may be considered cheating.



Seriously, what is the point of this thread again? :smallconfused:

[Yuki Akuma]

Also applicable are Wall of *anything except Force*, Creation, Major Creation, etc.
If you can create it, you can sell it and you can create it again tomorrow

Pretty sure you can't sell fire.

And the thing about Wall of Salt (and Wall of Iron) is that it's permanent. (In fact it's instantaneous; the salt/iron is real matter and won't vanish.)

[Cog]

Pretty sure you can't sell fire.
Probably not. You can sell a lack of fire, though.


The technical term is "protection racket".

[Darth Stabber]

Probably not. You can sell a lack of fire, though.


The technical term is "protection racket".

It also goes by extortion if done over a shorter term. Or as local fire brigade/department.

[faceroll]

Or if you're a wizard with shrink item.

[The Glyphstone]

And, according to RAW, that's OK.

They sleep all night and they work all day?

[Greenish]

And the thing about Wall of Salt (and Wall of Iron) is that it's permanent. (In fact it's instantaneous; the salt/iron is real matter and won't vanish.)You can also create non-magical invisible iron with Invisible Spell.

Or invisible salt, I guess.

[HalfDragonCube]

You can also create non-magical invisible iron with Invisible Spell.

Or invisible salt, I guess.

Well done, you just made an invisible wall in an RPG!

That deserves a cookie.

All sorts of fun to be had with invisible walls, try having a contingent one set to 'when somebody charges at me'. Clonk.

[ericgrau]

This isn't really a big deal at all. Not in comparison to the cost of a wizard's spellbook at least.

"I sell my starting book of cantrips for 900 gp and get everyone masterwork weapons at level 1. I keep my 1st level spells in another book, plus detect magic."

[Jack Zander]

"I sell my starting book of cantrips for 900 gp and get everyone masterwork weapons at level 1. I keep my 1st level spells in another book, plus detect magic."

The amount of gold you can get for it increases with the number of splat-books available to you as well. Also, there are better things you can do with 900 gold, such as buying a pack of guard dogs which will last you at least through the first few levels until you can get some respectable wizard tricks.

EDIT: And by guard dogs I mean the 150 gp riding dogs which can come with the wolf's trip ability at no additional cost.

[ffone]

I found a cheat in character creation that some DMs might want to look into to keep things from descending into shenanigan territory.
.

I don't understand. How this is a cheat?

Characters have a certain starting wealth (by class). Either their clothing has to come out of that - or if the PHB or DMG says that each class also gets a starting outfit of some sort, then effectively this is just additional starting wealth - and it should be expected (and makes perfect sense in-character) that if you have a royal outfit, then once you start adventuring you'll sell it off for something more practical. In fact there's probably a tvtropes.org entry for this (princesses who get pulled off onto an adventure and learn not to be such a priss).

If the PHB/DMG don't say you get a free outfit, then letting PCs start with, say, a royal outfit, is a houserule. And sure it's exploitable, but

1. it's just an exploitable houserule, not some actual loophole or cheat in the rules
2. it's sufficiently obvious (and again, logical to do in-character) that the DM should blame themselves if they don't like it happening. Again, I wouldn't even call it cheating; it's just logical roleplaying: if I'm a former Spoiled Princess who owns a 200 gp outfit, little else, and I'm about to go on a dangerous adventure where I'll need foods, weapons, gear more, all my clothes will get bloody or dirty anyway...of course I'm gonna sell it!

[faceroll]

EDIT: And by guard dogs I mean the 150 gp riding dogs which can come with the wolf's trip ability at no additional cost.

Magebred Warbeast Riding dogs in chain shirts. Pretty f'in beast.

[HalfDragonCube]

There is absolutely no downside to selling the page with the read magic cantrip, since wizards can prepare this from memory.

Take a level of Archivist after that for even more cash.

[Jack Zander]

There is absolutely no downside to selling the page with the read magic cantrip, since wizards can prepare this from memory.

Take a level of Archivist after that for even more cash.

That's probably why he saved detect magic rather than read magic.

[HalfDragonCube]

That's probably why he saved detect magic rather than read magic.

I know, I was just recommending that to any wizards who feel that they still want all of their cantrips.