Horned Harbringer...How to make it useful in non-gestalt?

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yes. Horned Harbringer is a lovely class in Gestalt for a necromancer(Like a DN or cleric) but horrid in non-gestalt for one since it dose not increase caster levels. However, I want to know if there is any way to make the class useful in a non-gestalt game. I was thinking tacking it onto a non-caster but that dose not really work that well since there is no non-casting class that I know of which would benefit from levels in the class since it has a crappy BAB and a meh skill selection and most non-casters rely on BAB or skills.

So, any ideas on how to make the horned harbringer work in non-gestalt?

[Cog]

There's a monster - Phaerimm, I think? - that gets Sorcerer casting according to its HD, without specifying racial HD. It usually comes up for getting double dips out of Ultimate Magus, but it could work here.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I shall have to look into that, though I fear that race will have a disgustingly massive LA, as most monsters, and if there's one thing I hate it's having lots of LA and no way to deal with it.(such as by shoving it on one side of a gestalt...if your playing gestalt, that is.) However, if you can play it as a 1st level character and get at least sorcerer casting that has level 1 spells at 1st level the LA may not be terrible since your HD= CL and thus I'd assume you'd advance casting by leveling even if your leveling nothing but LA since you gain HD each level?

[Diarmuid]

Raskshasa have 7LA but cast as 7th lvl Sorcs....course, they also have 7RHD...so not sure if that's entirely helpful or not.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A Hatchling Phaerimm has a +2 LA, and its one racial HD would get replaced by your first class level. You can find it here. (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040313a)

And its H-a-r-b-i-n-g-e-r, not H-a-r-b-r-i-n-g-e-r.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, of course a sollution would be to just pick up any monster race with a that has some good SLAs or spellcasting with a CL not based on class level and then pick up Horned Harbinger. I'd technically have "no" spellcasting but have a bunch of SLAs and other bonuses from having a template and thus HH not boosting CL would be a moot point. Perhaps this is the time to make a character who's a true dragon?(Not sure what LA would be needed for dragon-casting, though.) I think there's some dragon-specific stuff that can give them domains and even the whole cleric list though the latter would be cheesy as all heck....but then again so would be playing a dragon...

[Cog]

However, if you can play it as a 1st level character and get at least sorcerer casting that has level 1 spells at 1st level the LA may not be terrible since your HD= CL and thus I'd assume you'd advance casting by leveling even if your leveling nothing but LA since you gain HD each level?
Getting to play one at level 1 might be unrealistic for a race that comes with free sorcerer casting. They've got dragonlike age categories, though, so you can pick a young one with a relatively low ECL. Yes, though, the point is that class HD would give them spellcaster levels as well.

Rakshasa isn't a very good idea. If the problem is that the PrC loses spellcaster levels, losing more before you even take it certainly won't help.

Edit: Dragon casting is based on racial HD, not all HD. I think there's one other race that works like Phaerimm; do a search for Ultimate Magus threads if you're interested.

[Maho-Tsukai]

What about just screwing CL all togther and picking some monster race or templates that get SLAs based on HD? I'd not have as many options as a true caster but with the right SLAs would have a decient ammount of offenses and defenses, not to mention HH would get me a LOT of minions. Perhaps see if I can get a rueling that Desecrate as an SLA would effect an animate dead SLA? Oh, and taking undead leadership, and leadership would provide even more minions. The only issue would be how to handle skills since I'd have no class skills until I hit HH. It could be a fun character to try out, though, and would be an interesting take on a necromancer.

[Pechvarry]

I don't have Faiths and Pantheons, so this is already bad advice: Is it possible to go Abjurant Champion and make a macabre gish of sorts?

EDIT: I just found this in my brother's books. Medium BAB isn't too bad. With HH 10/ Abjurant Champion 5 and at least 1 level of sorcerer, You'll end up with a BAB of around 15 by level 20. If that last iterative is important, I bet the much-shamed Battle Sorcerer could do it. Especially if you use fractional BAB/Saves (WHICH EVERY TABLE SHOULD!).

Here's the schtick: with BAB 15, you'd have a sorcerer caster level of 15, which means a Horned Harbinger CL of 25+Cha bonus, so easily in the low 30s. You're not a real spellcaster -- you just have undead in spades, and I guess they're made component-free. You'll have to do some 3.5 converting, and while you're at it, see if your DM will let you take any Divine feat you qualify for instead of just that tiny list. Profane Lifeleech is a pretty fun one.

[Coidzor]

Yeah, of course a sollution would be to just pick up any monster race with a that has some good SLAs or spellcasting with a CL not based on class level and then pick up Horned Harbinger. I'd technically have "no" spellcasting but have a bunch of SLAs and other bonuses from having a template and thus HH not boosting CL would be a moot point. Perhaps this is the time to make a character who's a true dragon?(Not sure what LA would be needed for dragon-casting, though.) I think there's some dragon-specific stuff that can give them domains and even the whole cleric list though the latter would be cheesy as all heck....but then again so would be playing a dragon...

Steel Dragon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a), mate. Though Hatchling Phaerimm is probably the way to go, especially with LA buyoff.

Oh, yeah. In regards to SLAs that scale with HD. Half-Fey is pretty good for +2 LA. Phrenic is another +2 LA that delivers something similar, I believe.

[Cog]

I just looked at the PrC. Given the way some of its abilities stack with existing caster level, Phaerimm is really strong for this.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Not just really strong but perhaps brokenly so. Did we just discover some new cheese here? :smallamused:

[Greenish]

Not just really strong but perhaps brokenly so. Did we just discover some new cheese here? :smallamused:More so than other uses of hatchling Phaerim? Nope.

[Coidzor]

Anyone remember what the alternative to Phaerimm was though? Or find it through googling? I've failed on both counts already...

[Thurbane]

I'm not familiar with Horned Harbinger, but if it doesn't advance casting, would it work OK with PrCs that get full casting within 10 levels, like the Ur Priest?

[Cog]

It's a ten-level class itself, so that doesn't help much.

[Akal Saris]

More so than other uses of hatchling Phaerim? Nope.

My thoughts exactly :smalltongue:

[WinWin]

Create Greater Undead + Improved Rebuking level + Thought Bottle + Emancipated Spawn.

Not specific to Horned Harbinger.

[Morrolan]

Play a spell-to-power erudite and adapt horned harbringer to work with psionics.
Since the augmentation of powers is based upon manifester level, you can simply take practised manifester to boost it to your character level.
You won't have many powerpoints, but you'll have your undead minions to compensate, right?
Heck, you could even throw in a bit of Thrallherd and get cool Myrkul cultist believers and a second necromancer as thrall.

Edit: Or, if you want a real nasty CL on the spell like abilities from horned harbringer, take a level ur-priest and some psychic theurge levels before entering horned harbringer. This build would be quite feat dependent and multiple ability score dependent.

If you try this, maybe you should leave out thrallherd:
Erudite 5/Ur Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 1/Horned Harbringer 10/Psychic Theurge +2

If you go human this could get your caster level with the spell like abilities up to 50 + charisma modifier, but this requires you to spend all feats on practiced manifester/spellcaster. But since the maximum amount of HD you can control is based upon your caster level, maybe you think it's worth it.
Ofcourse, this version is a lot less effective at spellcasting than a simple erudite / horned harbringer.