4e player trying to learn 3.5e

[sournote103]

So, I (semi) recently started playing D&D, and naturally, I got the newest version. Since then, I have heard many people saying that 3.5e is a lot better, and want to give it a try. Thus far, I haven't had many problems, except for one. I am unsure how 3.5e limits the number of times a wizard/cleric/druid/other magic user can cast a spell per day. It seems like a spell that does 1d6 damage can be cast just as often as a spell that does 2d12 damage. I feel like this CANNOT be correct, but cannot figure out the limitation at all.
In addition, here is a list of major differences I have found between the two editions. Am I missing anything major?
-3.5e uses dice to determine HP at 1st level and HP gained per level.
-3.5e lets you multiclass infinitely, simply selecting the class in which you want to gain a level.
-3.5e gives each class its own progression, instead of each class gaining powers at the same rate.
-3.5e makes Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saving throw bonuses instead of defenses.
-You get a ****load less HP at first level in 3.5e.
-3.5e spellcasters must prepare spells at the beginning of the day, rather than having access to all their spells.
-3.5e clerics (not sure about other spellcasters) can prepare any spell that they are a high enough level to cast.
-There are no healing surges in 3.5e.

Also, one thing I want to make sure I have correct: Each time you level up, you gain 1 of the hit die specified by the class you are gaining a level in, right? And Hit Dice at first level are determined solely by your class if you are a Humanoid, but by your class and creature type if your are any creature type other than humanoid, correct?

Many thanks to anyone who can help.

[Eldan]

Mostly correct. Though on level one, HP are maximized. I.e. a d10 just becomes 10 HP.

Still, the intent is that a good sword hit kills a guy on level 1.

As for non-humanoids and racial HD:

You get HP from your class on class levels. Racial HD, i.e. the HD of your creature type, only affects racial hit dice, which are bonus hit dice some races get. So, a Tiefling (Native outsider type) would still get a d4 from sorcerer levels. A Lizardfolk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lizardfolk.htm), however, gains 2d8 HP in addition to it's class hit points from it's two humanoid HD. All class hitt points, however, are still normal, so a level one lizardfolk wizard has 2d8+1d4 hit points.

[herrhauptmann]

Yes, you've got those differences about right. So what's your problem adjusting to a different ruleset? You've pinned down many of the differences.

Regarding spells, yeah. Your wizard can cast magic missile as many times on tuesday, as you can cast sleep on wednesday. (Excluding differences for school specialization)

Now I've made a guess regarding this thread, please prove me wrong:
AHA! You thought I was going to make my guess invisible with white text didn't you!!
No, not even tiny white text.

[Eldan]

Oh, and for spells:

It depends on level. Let's say you have three level 1 slots and one level 2 slots: you can then cast three first level spells and one second level spell. Usually, your 2d12 damage spell would be a higher level than your 1d6 damage spell.

[sournote103]

OK. That really addresses everything I was unsure of. Thank you both very much. I look forward to trying this out next time my D&D group meets up.

[Sucrose]

HP at first level is actually the maximum of your class's hit dice in 3.5.

You are correct in that your hit dice is determined by your class. However, if you're playing anything that would have additional hit dice, like a centaur or a devil or an archon or something, then you aren't actually a first-level character.

Monstrous races are handled in 3 ways in 3.5E
1.) Be weak enough that you can start off at the same level as someone of a more typical PC race (examples: goblin, kobold, orc)
2.) Possess Level Adjustment (LA). Level adjustment raises your effective character level for the purpose of experience gain, and gives you nothing in return, save your racial abilities. This is done for races that are substantially stronger than humanoids, so that the person who decides not to play as a Half-Dragon isn't gimped. Presumably, it represents relying on your innate abilities rather than the talents that you are trained in. (Examples: Half-Dragon template, ghost template, pixie)
3.) Possess Racial Hit Dice. These hit dice are essentially raw toughness that you generally get for being of a race powerful enough that to play one fairly in a campaign would involve such a high LA that you would have pitifully few HP and skills for your level otherwise. (Examples: Hound Archon, True Dragon, Giant). These hit dice generally improve your base saves, HP, skills, and attack bonus, but not very well compared to class levels.

Your Effective Character Level is equal to your class level+ your level adjustment+ your racial hit dice. You may not start as a character with an effective character level higher than the rest of your party, at least not without explicit DM permission, and even then, you'll want to double-check with the other players.

[Tvtyrant]

Well there are a few things to add;

1. A Cleric can only cast spells that it has prepared in slots. So say the Cleric has a single fifth level slot, it can prepare a single fifth level spell from its spell list in that slot. That means the only fifth level spell it can cast is the one it prepares, and only once. Wizards work the same way, but they have to choose spells at each level from the Wizard spell list to their spell book, and then they can only prepare slots from that spell book (with exceptions).

2. You also get your Con modifier worth of health each level on top of your hit dice. So a maxed con Barbarian gets as much or more health from its con as it does from its HD.

3. Casters are much, much more powerful in 3.5 then in 4E. The limitation on spells is that preparation casters can't spontaneously choose which spells to use each day, and spontansous casters don't know that many spells.

4. The amount of spells that some classes can cast a day is called spell slots. You get only so many slots to fill, and each slot can only be used once per day. Pseudo-casters and other types of magic users work differently, but all of the core casters cast from slots.

[KillianHawkeye]

All spellcasters in 3rd Edition have a chart called "Spells per Day" which shows how many spells of each level they can prepare (or spontaneously cast) each day. This chart typically takes up the entire right side of the class' progression table.

[Lateral]

They will be different level spells, so you'll have less of them per day. Look at the table, here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm)[/B]

In addition, here is a list of major differences I have found between the two editions. Am I missing anything major?
-3.5e uses dice to determine HP at 1st level and HP gained per level. Yes, but you take the maximum of the die roll at 1st level and you add your Constitution modifier to each hit die.
-3.5e lets you multiclass infinitely, simply selecting the class in which you want to gain a level. Pretty much. There are penalties for multiclassing more that a certain number of times, but nobody enforces them because they're stupid rules.
-3.5e gives each class its own progression, instead of each class gaining powers at the same rate.Yup.
-3.5e makes Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saving throw bonuses instead of defenses. Yup.
-You get a ****load less HP at first level in 3.5e. True, but not as much as you think since you usually maximize HP at 1st level.
-3.5e spellcasters must prepare spells at the beginning of the day, rather than having access to all their spells. Yes.
-3.5e clerics (not sure about other spellcasters) can prepare any spell that they are a high enough level to cast. Clerics and druids. Wizards can only prepare spells in their spellbook (they get 2/level, and they can buy more). Sorcerers have a limited number of spells that they can cast, but don't prepare them in the morning- they can use a spell slot to cast any spell they know of that level.
-There are no healing surges in 3.5e. Yep. Healing is handled by spells and items, mostly.

Also, one thing I want to make sure I have correct: Each time you level up, you gain 1 of the hit die specified by the class you are gaining a level in, right? And Hit Dice at first level are determined solely by your class if you are a Humanoid, but by your class and creature type if your are any creature type other than humanoid, correct? Yes, but it's not determined by creature type. Your HD are equal to your class levels plus your racial hit dice. Most humanoids (and a few nonhumanoids) have no racial hit dice, but some do. If there is only one racial hit die, you drop it and replace it with a class level.

Answered for ya.

[Greenish]

I am unsure how 3.5e limits the number of times a wizard/cleric/druid/other magic user can cast a spell per day. It seems like a spell that does 1d6 damage can be cast just as often as a spell that does 2d12 damage. I feel like this CANNOT be correct, but cannot figure out the limitation at all.The daily limits on spells are right there on the table of a given caster class. You'll get a few extra for high casting stat, but that's it.

-3.5e spellcasters must prepare spells at the beginning of the day, rather than having access to all their spells.Not all of them. Spontaneous spellcasters have to select their spells known when they gain levels, and can cast those spells as many times a day as they have slots of appropriate level.

And of course, there's psionics, invocations, meldshaping, blade magic, soul binding and so forth. :smalltongue:

-3.5e clerics (not sure about other spellcasters) can prepare any spell that they are a high enough level to cast.It holds for most prepared casters. Wizards and archivists have to have the spell in their spellbook/prayerbook to prepare it.

Also, one thing I want to make sure I have correct: Each time you level up, you gain 1 of the hit die specified by the class you are gaining a level in, right? And Hit Dice at first level are determined solely by your class if you are a Humanoid, but by your class and creature type if your are any creature type other than humanoid, correct?Well, yes, unless you're a humanoid with more than one racial hitdice. And "humanoid" here refers to body plan, not type, I believe.


Really, you'll have easier time adapting if you accept that 3.5 and 4 are two different games.

Still, the intent is that a good sword hit kills a guy on level 1.Or a full attack from a house cat. :smallcool:


[Edit]: Swordsage'd so hard. :smallfrown:

[herrhauptmann]

Or a full attack from a house cat. :smallcool:


Not even a full attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0780.html)
Though I think a spider the size of a hamster would also be beyond the abilities of your typical commoner.

[Drglenn]

Quick rundown for how spells work in 3.5:

Every spell has a level, this is not the same as the character/class levels
As you level up in the Caster classes you gain access to spells of higher levels (usually every other level for full casters)
Casters have a number of spells per day split into the spell levels they have access to
Wizards and other arcane casters will generally need to learn the spells so have a limited pool of spells to choose from each day whereas divine casters 'know' all the spells from their spell list of the levels they have access to


Also another thing to note is that 3.5 is much less balanced then 4e, with caster classes generally outshining non-casters in most situations

[LansXero]

Swordsage'd so hard.

Speaking of which, you may be more comfortable with the Tome of Battle classes, since they were (allegedly?) a test run of some of 4E's mechanics. And they dont run out of "powers" (maneuvers).

[Greenish]

Not even a full attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0780.html)Poor guy rolled badly on his hitdice. :smallwink:

Oh, that's a difference from 4e: in 3.5, NPCs follow the same rules and are built the same way as PCs, with very few exceptions. One of those exceptions is that NPCs roll their first hitdice, while PCs have theirs maximized.

[Drglenn]

Oh, that's a difference from 4e: in 3.5, NPCs follow the same rules and are built the same way as PCs, with very few exceptions. One of those exceptions is that NPCs roll their first hitdice, while PCs have theirs maximized.

No they take average, otheriwse the CR system would be even more useless than the horrendous wase of time that it is.

[Lateral]

Also another thing to note is that 3.5 is much less balanced then 4e, with caster classes generally outshining non-casters in most situations


Speaking of which, you may be more comfortable with the Tome of Battle classes, since they were (allegedly?) a test run of some of 4E's mechanics. And they dont run out of "powers" (maneuvers).

Also, one helps solve the other. Tome of Battle classes are much closer to casters in power- an optimized Wizard will still blow them all out of the water, but they could be in a party with, say, a Sorcerer and do fine. If you're trying to really get into 3.5, it's one of the first supplements you'd want to get (along with the Completes series.)

[herrhauptmann]

Poor guy rolled badly on his hitdice. :smallwink:

Oh, that's a difference from 4e: in 3.5, NPCs follow the same rules and are built the same way as PCs, with very few exceptions. One of those exceptions is that NPCs roll their first hitdice, while PCs have theirs maximized.

And less money.

But yeah, that first level wizard in 4E, with her almost 30 hitpoints, is going to need some adjustments getting used to have 4+con mod in 3.5.
A downside of no healing surges is that you can't heal yourself. A plusside, with enough clerics throwing healing your way, you can stay on your feet indefinitely.

Skill points are done very differently too. 4E seems similar to AD&D, where you have a few skills you know, and you suck at everything else. 3.5, you have points to allocate as you wish, just that some skills progress faster (class skills) than others (cross-class skills).

Saves:
In 4E you had 3 additional defenses (Fort, Ref, Will), which a monster rolled against when hitting you with certain effects.
In 3.5, you still have those stats, but now they're a bonus for your own d20 roll when a monster decides to hit you with a certain effect/spell. The difficulty of the roll is determined by the monsters abilities (something your DM takes care of for his monsters. And you take care of for your own spells).
And 3.5 saves can end up very lopsided at high levels. 4E saves can be uneven, but not as drastically as 3.5

[stainboy]

-3.5e uses dice to determine HP at 1st level and HP gained per level.


You don't actually roll hit points at 1st level. You get the maximum possible HP for your hit die.

There's a suggested house rule in the DMG to replace rolling HP when you level. Giving characters fixed HP/level is a very common house rule. (I highly recommend it. People cheat HP rolls and I can't blame them.)



-You get a ****load less HP at first level in 3.5e.


True, but most people also don't start start games at 1st level. 3rd or 4th level are better starting points. 3rd level is about the minimum for everyone to start with a simple functional build. The sorcerer can have a variety of spells, the melee rogue has Weapon Finesse, the barbarian has enough BAB to use Power Attack.



Also, one thing I want to make sure I have correct: Each time you level up, you gain 1 of the hit die specified by the class you are gaining a level in, right? And Hit Dice at first level are determined solely by your class if you are a Humanoid, but by your class and creature type if your are any creature type other than humanoid, correct?


It's got nothing to do with being humanoid. Tieflings, elans, and warforged aren't humanoid but they take their first level in a character class. And lizardfolk are humanoids, but their first two HD are from racial levels.

[Ernir]

It seems like a spell that does 1d6 damage can be cast just as often as a spell that does 2d12 damage. I feel like this CANNOT be correct, but cannot figure out the limitation at all.

There is one thing to be said about this... the amount of damage a spell deals is often no indicator of how powerful the spell really is. There are many, many ways to skin a cat win an encounter in 3.5, and damage is but one of them.

And even spells that deal damage can't always be simply measured by the number of dice they deal.

[Hiro Protagonest]

If you want the 4e feel with 3.5, get Tome of Battle, it's got maneuvers, which are a lot like 4e encounter powers. Plus it makes it so you can match the party spellcaster in usefulness.

[Eldan]

Yes. From the mid-levels on, if you want to deal damage, the main consideration is usually what kind of damage. Fire resistance or immunity, as an example, becomes very common, especially among characters (both player and non-player), because fire damage is also common. So fire damage, as an example, becomes the worst energy damage. Sonic, on the other hand, is almost irresistible. Force is even better.

And for higher-power play, usually combat is about stacking negative effects on the opponent until they can no longer fight, not damage. There's a simple reason for this: damaged opponents still fight back equally well, while entangled, nauseated, stunned and so on enemies don't. You can always stab them when they are helpless.

[Zaq]

Oh yeah, you know how keywords are (usually) a good thing in 4e? They're usually a bad thing in 3.5. The more brackets a spell or effect has (i.e., "This is a [mind-affecting] [necromantic] [morale] [fear] effect," which I believe is an actual thing somewhere), the more likely it is that something will be immune to it. There are very few of your own abilities that get something cool when you use an effect with a certain keyword, and vulnerabilities are so rare as to be negligible.

[stainboy]

Sounds like Phantasmal Killer.

In the entire history of Dungeons & Dragons no one has ever died to a Phantasmal Killer spell. Two saves and three different ways to be immune.

[Ernir]

Sounds like Phantasmal Killer.

In the entire history of Dungeons & Dragons no one has ever died to a Phantasmal Killer spell. Two saves and three different ways to be immune.

Yeah, that's the spell I fire at the players when I want them to feel like they dodged a Save-or-Die, but I don't want to actually risk killing them. xD

[Endarire]

In 4e, there's a lot more swinginess. If one side's winning this turn, it could seem to be losing next turn, only to seem to win the turn after.

In 3.5, Rocket Tag/Rocket Launcher Tag/RLT is common. Go first, unleash your uber ability (usually a Wizard or Druid spell) and win the fight. Maybe not with one spell at levels 1-6, but web, glitterdust, grease, stinking cloud, and Evard's black tentacles can make the Wizard win the fight with little effort to his team. That's what happens when you're GOD (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0).

And read the Handbook section (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?board=22.0) to learn how the game really works. It's complicated, but it has a lot of expert and newbie advice!

[Eldariel]

Sounds like Phantasmal Killer.

In the entire history of Dungeons & Dragons no one has ever died to a Phantasmal Killer spell. Two saves and three different ways to be immune.

Our group, in our innocent young days, has once successfully (and a lot of time unsuccessfully) used Phantasmal Killer. It's just a matter of a sufficient number of iterations :smallwink:

[big teej]

Mostly correct. Though on level one, HP are maximized. I.e. a d10 just becomes 10 HP.

Still, the intent is that a good sword hit kills a guy on level 1.

As for non-humanoids and racial HD:

You get HP from your class on class levels. Racial HD, i.e. the HD of your creature type, only affects racial hit dice, which are bonus hit dice some races get. So, a Tiefling (Native outsider type) would still get a d4 from sorcerer levels. A Lizardfolk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lizardfolk.htm), however, gains 2d8 HP in addition to it's class hit points from it's two humanoid HD. All class hitt points, however, are still normal, so a level one lizardfolk wizard has 2d8+1d4 hit points.

wait....
so a creature with racial hit die would roll those everytime they leveled up IN ADDITION to class hit die?

[Greenish]

wait....
so a creature with racial hit die would roll those everytime they leveled up IN ADDITION to class hit die?No. :smallconfused:

[Hiro Protagonest]

They just roll their racial hit die ONCE. BEFORE THEY GAIN ANY CLASS LEVELS.

[big teej]

No. :smallconfused:

/epic misreading of post. :smallredface:

[Eldariel]

wait....
so a creature with racial hit die would roll those everytime they leveled up IN ADDITION to class hit die?

They basically start with extra HDs worth of HP and never gain more.

[Veyr]

You can think of their Racial Hit Dice as being levels in a mandatory "class" for being that creature. Said "class" is usually awful and you generally want to avoid them (Dragon and Outsider HD are OK; excellent numbers, but no class features), but sometimes (rarely) the racial features make up for the dead racial levels.

LA is similar, except you don't even get the numbers, but if you're playing with the UA rules, you can buy off your LA later.

[Eldan]

No.

Let's take a theoretical race (since I'm too lazy to look one up), the Examplian.

Examplians have 2d8 racial hit dice and a +1 level adjustment.

If they have no class levels, they are as in the monster manual, so they would have 2d8 hit points, plus two times their constitution bonus.

With their first class level, they gain their class hit dice in addition to that. So, if they took a level of fighter, they would have 2d8 (racial) +1d10 (fighter) + three times their constitution bonus.

With their second level of fighter, they'd have 2d8 (racial) +2d10 (fighter) + four times their constitution bonus.

Because they are stronger than other characters, however, they would count as a higher level for gaining experience.
A first level Examplian fighter would be equivalent to a fourth level character, because of their 2 racial hit dice + 1 level adjustment +1 class level =4.

[Savannah]

And read the Handbook section (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?board=22.0) to learn how the game really works. It's complicated, but it has a lot of expert and newbie advice!

No. Read that after you've had a chance to play around and play whatever sounds like fun, and only if you're going to be in a game where optimization matters. Be careful of advice on this and similar boards, as the people here tend to assume a high level of optimization, which is not always (and quite possibly not often) the case.

[Acanous]

my illusionists use Phantasmal Killer successfully all the time. Sometimes against boss monsters.
It's just a matter of knowing what you can use it on, and what you can't.
Also, it is a [Mind Affecting] [Fear] effect. It's actually Illusion (Phantasm), not necromancy.
If you go Master Specialist (Illusion) and take Spellcasting Prodigy, you're looking at minimum DC 22, if your int is 14. 24 if it's 18, and honestly by level 7 your int should be around 19 with a +2 bonus from a headband, upping the DC to 25. At level 7, there's not a whole lot that can make a DC 25 will followed by DC 25 Fort. Yes, the minor esoterica applies to both, because the entry includes "Will Disbelief" :p
For instance, a Medusa would need a natural 19-20 to make that will DC, and could not make the fort except with a nat 20. A Hellcat could make it off a 17 will or 16 fort roll, but honestly those are still really good odds.

Any time the target has to roll over 15 or die is my bar, really. As a player, anyhow. As a DM I never toss anything at the party with a save or die over 10 based on the weakest party member. Save or suck can be based off the strongest ;)