Stealth and high CR creatures

[ILM]

So I was thinking about a character lately and started mapping stuff out. Stealthy type, obligatory Darkstalker feat, some magic. Then I wondered "how's this guy going to fare against some CR-appropriate creatures?" and started looking through CR20-25 monsters. Now the character is level 20, but owing to optimization I aim a little higher when trying to benchmark stuff. Ergo, this character is ECL20 and has no access to epic stuff.

Sadly, my +44 to Hide that I was happy about is small potatoes compared to just about every monster's Spot, which sits comfortably in the 45-55 range with a few outliers. My (admittedly completely unoptimized) +18 to Listen is even worse as most monsters don't even need to roll.

Without stretching the rules to ribbons or spending half your feats and two thirds of your WBL on it, how do you make your stealth skills relevant at high levels? Because if there's no chance in hell I'll beat a monster's Spot/Listen anyway, then at the very least Darkstalker sounds like a waste of a feat to me.

[Andraste]

Invisibility?

[elonin]

Being stealthy is difficult at this point though I'm not the one to ask how to make the best of the situation. 44 seems to be about the most you can reasonably expect without a template or spending feats.

[Heliomance]

+30 to hide on an item is 90,000. Chump change at level 20.

[Hyfigh]

Invisiblity, as mentioned, adds a +20-40 to your check depending on whether you're moving.

Feat expendature and WBL for item usage is what would be required to accomplish a reasonably high check.

[Eldariel]

Racials and size bonuses help. You can have Reduce Person cast on a small character for +8 size bonus. You can get +15 as a property on armor with just Core. You get 23 as ranks and your Dex can be in the +15 range especially with Reduce Person. Racials go up to +4. That already adds up to +65, meaning some creatures have to roll 20 to see your 1 and others are only 10 points behind, without range penalties factored in. And that's with just core-stuff. What you forgot was probably magic bonuses.

You don't even spend 5% of your total wealth on this, so...

[elonin]

First +30 item is epic. This question was about preepic. Invisibility is nearly useless at these levels.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Camouflage spell, 1st level, 10 minutes/level, +10 Circumstance bonus to hide.
Chameleon psionic power, 1st level, 10 minutes/level, +10 Enhancement bonus to hide.
Both stack with an item which grants a Competence bonus.


First +30 item is epic. This question was about preepic. Invisibility is nearly useless at these levels.

Anything above +30 is epic. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/basics.htm)

[Newbieshoes]

The short answer is, sadly, you don't.

[faceroll]

The short answer is, sadly, you don't.

Web Enhancement kobold with 22 dex (16 base +2 racial, +4 item)
Wand of Shrink Person (250 gp)
Wand of Camouflage (750 gp)
Dorje of Chameleon (750 gp)
23 Ranks
+2 from masterwork item
Umbral Collar of Metamorphosis (~30k gp, +8 racial)
Cloak of Elvenkind (2,500 gp, +5 competence)

A kobold is small, slight build makes it count as tiny, shrink person makes it diminutive. You could go with the psychic power compression, dip two levels of psy warrior or psychic rogue, pick up practiced manifester, and become effectively tiny.

Lets go with diminutive; that's +12 to hide

Hide check = 6 + 12 + 10 + 10 + 23 + 2 + 8 + 5 = +76
This is without any specific build, 28 pb, and less than 1/10th of WBL spent on hiding. It would be rather trivial to get over +100 to hide.

[Gamer Girl]

You might just have a case of the dreaded I must always auto win or the game is no fun. Yours is a great point.

With +44 to hide, you can rest assured that you can hide from, oh, 90% of monsters. And 5% have a chance of noticing you, and 5% will always notice you.

So we take a typical CR20 monster: A Balor with a spot of +38. So if you roll low(say a 5) and it rolls high(say even a 10) the Balor will see you. But, for the most part you have a good chance of hiding.

So a Thunder Worm as +47 to Spot, so they will find you about half the time..baring the dice rolls(If it rolls a 3 and you roll a 18, then you'd hide from it).


Still, you want your Hide skill to be what, 60? 70? 100? So that it's impossible for anything to ever find you. That's a bit unrealistic. The game would not be so much fun if you could just Hide from everything all the time. Really, what would be the point?

[Greenish]

Really, what would be the point?Not being seen.

[jguy]

A Ring of continuous Greater Invisibility?

[faceroll]

A Ring of continuous Greater Invisibility?

Useless at most levels.

[Geigan]

You might just have a case of the dreaded I must always auto win or the game is no fun. Yours is a great point.

With +44 to hide, you can rest assured that you can hide from, oh, 90% of monsters. And 5% have a chance of noticing you, and 5% will always notice you.

So we take a typical CR20 monster: A Balor with a spot of +38. So if you roll low(say a 5) and it rolls high(say even a 10) the Balor will see you. But, for the most part you have a good chance of hiding.

So a Thunder Worm as +47 to Spot, so they will find you about half the time..baring the dice rolls(If it rolls a 3 and you roll a 18, then you'd hide from it).


Still, you want your Hide skill to be what, 60? 70? 100? So that it's impossible for anything to ever find you. That's a bit unrealistic. The game would not be so much fun if you could just Hide from everything all the time. Really, what would be the point?

I don't really see the fun in a challenge when the test of a person's skill comes down to who rolled higher on the d20. A test of luck is no real challenge. Becoming so good at a skill that you've eliminated luck from the equation now, that's a challenge I can participate and have fun in. Now of course situations are the real spice of challenge in game if you want hide to be more interesting than an optimization contest. Making smart decisions, about when to take a moment to decide which piece of cover to head for, what path to take to get around your enemy, how you pick your cover so the enemy doesn't get suspicious, these are all things the DM can use to challenge the player in a game of stealth. Those situational -5 for moving full speed and -20 for running make the stealth game much more risky when he has to dart from cover to cover. A flat contest of your hide vs. their spot is not so much a challenge as a simple check to see if you can hide in cover. If the enemy saw you when you were already hiding behind something you're not very sneaky now are you?

As it is +44 really won't cut it much unless he's hiding something with abysmal spot like the tarrasque. I would recommend a ring of invisibility or greater invisibility if you can get a continuous item of it. +40 for not moving, +20 if he is moving so that's a huge boost right there. As was mentioned, getting smaller definitely has its advantages at +4 per size smaller. Now I would definitely say don't go WAY overboard as hide really isn't that useful unless you're in a stealth oriented game, unless you need to hide another you're entire team or some other shenanigans like that.

[RaginChangeling]

Better question, did you buy a continuous Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis? Its really cheap and gives you the Dark Template which gives Hide in Plain Sight, a bonus to hide and move silently and a move speed increase. Very, very useful.

[Gamer Girl]

I don't really see the fun in a challenge when the test of a person's skill comes down to who rolled higher on the d20. A test of luck is no real challenge. Becoming so good at a skill that you've eliminated luck from the equation now, that's a challenge I can participate and have fun in.


If this is how you feel, then D&D is the wrong game for you. The whole point of D&D is randomness and luck...and this is, in fact, why D&D is a Dice Role-Playing game.

If you want a game where you take a skill or power and become invincible, that is not D&D. Even more so 3X is all about opposed d20 checks as a base mechanic. It's not my skill is so high I'm unbeatable, it's your skill vs their skill, with random chance every time the dice are rolled.

And you should note that you can never eliminate chance or luck from the equation, as things do just happen(and note this is true in real life too...)

[Pentachoron]

A Ring of continuous Greater Invisibility?

No good, they'd just have to go on a quest to throw it in a volcano.

[AsteriskAmp]

No good, they'd just have to go on a quest to throw it in a volcano.

Don't you mean the Druid/Wizard gestalt companion took them there and no relevant PC died in the road there?

[Acanous]

I'd definately go with Cloak/Boots of Elvenkind and rings of +30 to Hide/Move Silently. then 23 ranks, a decent dex. staying core you could take Stealthy for +2 Hide/Move Silently.
Assuming you have 18 Dex that's a 64 to both skills, meaning a monster with a +55 would need a 10 to beat your 1.

You can add +6 from gloves of dex, so now you're up to 67, core only and without any spellcasting.

Start adding racials, spellcasting, and nonstandard magic items to the mix and it goes much higher in a hurry.

[ILM]

Lots of things to reply to here, thanks for the input :smallsmile:.


Invisiblity, as mentioned, adds a +20-40 to your check depending on whether you're moving.

Feat expendature and WBL for item usage is what would be required to accomplish a reasonably high check.
Invisibility, at CR20, is mostly useless as anything and their riding dog can see through it or dispel it or hey, Glitterdust. More to the point, Invisibility does nothing to Move Silently, so you could have a sky-high Hide and still sound like an entire kitchen's worth of dishes discreetly crashing through the room.

+30 to hide on an item is 90,000. Chump change at level 20.
You say chump change, I say 12% / 20k short of a +4 book / a +7 equivalent weapon / a Metamagic Rod, Quicken and a Lesser MM Rod, Maximize. And I need two since Hiding and Moving Silently give creatures two chances to catch you. Also, custom item so possibly DM fiat (though this one's pretty tame).

You might just have a case of the dreaded I must always auto win or the game is no fun. Yours is a great point.

With +44 to hide, you can rest assured that you can hide from, oh, 90% of monsters. And 5% have a chance of noticing you, and 5% will always notice you.
I'm a bit of an optimizer, and I expect likewise from the DM (not much point munchkining to the stars if the DM can't throw you anything more challenging than equal-level straight-classed Fighters). All I did was go to IMarvinTPA's database and filter through monsters, CR 20 to 25, with a Listen check. There's a lot of them, and a lot can see my +44 without even rolling. All (except poor Tarrasque) can hear my +18 to Move Silently without rolling. I may hide from 90% of monsters, but they're not the ones that matter since they couldn't kill me anyway, being lower CR.

I'd definately go with Cloak/Boots of Elvenkind and rings of +30 to Hide/Move Silently. then 23 ranks, a decent dex. staying core you could take Stealthy for +2 Hide/Move Silently.
Assuming you have 18 Dex that's a 64 to both skills, meaning a monster with a +55 would need a 10 to beat your 1.

You can add +6 from gloves of dex, so now you're up to 67, core only and without any spellcasting.

Start adding racials, spellcasting, and nonstandard magic items to the mix and it goes much higher in a hurry.
All that's true, but it's a significant investment. Not only in terms of WBL, but also of body slot occupation: that ring of Hide you've got is the ring of Freedom of Movement you're giving up, and is that really wise? I'll leave aside Stealthy as burning a feat on a +2 when you're in the 60+ range isn't something anyone will do :smalltongue:. Point is, you've spent over a quarter of your gold to get up there, and with that kind of investment you'd better beat monster checks. But without that, or picking the right race (an investment in itself), you're pretty much struggling to catch up with the monsters.

If this is how you feel, then D&D is the wrong game for you. The whole point of D&D is randomness and luck...and this is, in fact, why D&D is a Dice Role-Playing game.
Au contraire: the whole point of D&D is to wrestle away from randomness and luck. That's what every stat increase is about: you gain 1 point of BAB, and suddenly you're a bit less likely to rely on a lucky roll. Oh but wait, enemies got an extra point of AC - well, you better keep up now, or the scales will tip against you. Otherwise they wouldn't have bothered with stats at all, it'd have been roll d20+0 vs. d20+0 for the entire game.

[Heliomance]

You say chump change, I say 12% / 20k short of a +4 book / a +7 equivalent weapon / a Metamagic Rod, Quicken and a Lesser MM Rod, Maximize. And I need two since Hiding and Moving Silently give creatures two chances to catch you. Also, custom item so possibly DM fiat (though this one's pretty tame).

Fine, get a +20 item for 40,000. Or a +25 item for 62,500.

[Eldariel]

All that's true, but it's a significant investment. Not only in terms of WBL, but also of body slot occupation: that ring of Hide you've got is the ring of Freedom of Movement you're giving up, and is that really wise? I'll leave aside Stealthy as burning a feat on a +2 when you're in the 60+ range isn't something anyone will do :smalltongue:. Point is, you've spent over a quarter of your gold to get up there, and with that kind of investment you'd better beat monster checks. But without that, or picking the right race (an investment in itself), you're pretty much struggling to catch up with the monsters.

Greater Shadow and Greater Silent Moves are flat price 33k armor properties from official sources; you can get both for 60k. Again, together they're still under 10% of your wealth (of course you're going to have to invest something; it's not free to get high Hide/Move Silently). They're +15. That's good enough.

[ILM]

Greater Shadow and Greater Silent Moves are flat price 33k armor properties from official sources; you can get both for 60k. Again, together they're still under 10% of your wealth (of course you're going to have to invest something; it's not free to get high Hide/Move Silently). They're +15. That's good enough.
Sure. No I mean, it's certainly doable, no doubt about that. It's just that I was under the (probably false) assumption that when a stealthy-type took the Darkstalker feat and maxed out ranks in Hide/Move Silently, he was golden. Turns out it takes significantly more than that to make it work. I had a caster I wanted to also be stealthy (+30-ish Hide/Move Silently), and now I'm realizing that whatever I do, that Darkstalker was a complete waste of a feat for him because higher-level creatures will always spot him regardless. Kind of a disappointment, I guess.

[Greenish]

Would an MW item of Hide stack with Shadowweave clothing?

By RAW I think they would, being different source and all.

[Eldariel]

Sure. No I mean, it's certainly doable, no doubt about that. It's just that I was under the (probably false) assumption that when a stealthy-type took the Darkstalker feat and maxed out ranks in Hide/Move Silently, he was golden. Turns out it takes significantly more than that to make it work. I had a caster I wanted to also be stealthy (+30-ish Hide/Move Silently), and now I'm realizing that whatever I do, that Darkstalker was a complete waste of a feat for him because higher-level creatures will always spot him regardless. Kind of a disappointment, I guess.

No, casters have spells to make up the difference. It works out.

[ILM]

No, casters have spells to make up the difference. It works out.
Do they? Invisibility works somewhat (i.e. against those higher-level creatures who can't see invisible stuff) and I can think of Silence for the Move Silently part, except that it's not on the Sorc/Wiz list (stupid IMO, but there) and anyway it doesn't boost your Move Silently, it completely eschews the need to put ranks in it. Are there any other spells that just give bonuses to stealth skills with a decent duration?

[faceroll]

Would an MW item of Hide stack with Shadowweave clothing?

By RAW I think they would, being different source and all.

Circumstance bonuses stack as long as they arise from different circumstances. Wearing two sets of hiding clothes seems like you'd need to justify it to the DM.


Do they? Invisibility works somewhat (i.e. against those higher-level creatures who can't see invisible stuff) and I can think of Silence for the Move Silently part, except that it's not on the Sorc/Wiz list (stupid IMO, but there) and anyway it doesn't boost your Move Silently, it completely eschews the need to put ranks in it. Are there any other spells that just give bonuses to stealth skills with a decent duration?

Camouflage, Chameleon, polymorph effects, shrink effects, and Improvisation give you circumstance, enhancement, untyped/racial, untyped and luck bonuses to hide, respectively. It'd be difficult (not really) to get all 5 on the same character, but any two will net you at least +20 to hide.

For moving silently, use an etheral or incorporeal effect, such as Astral Projection (planar bind a nightmare if you want it early), Etherealness, Ghostform, or Shapechange. Incorporeal creatures never make noise unless they want to. Seeing as how we're looking at a level 20 caster facing CR20-Cr25 foes, using 8th & 9th level spells seems pretty legit.

[SartheKobold]

Stop having fun in ways I don't like!

Fix'd that for you.

That being said, the best way to enhance your stealth abilities in my experience is to throw around distractions in addition to buffing your Hide/Move Silently. If you can make the dragon turn his back to you, you can squeeze at least a +2 Circumstance bonus out of it, and most DMs would forgo the check all together on the grounds that the enemy is distracted. A Bard Cohort or Party Member dropping fascinations, or an illusory threat that draws their attention even for a round before they see through it can mean the difference between success and failure.

[Hyfigh]

At high levels another great thing is Shapechange. The Gloom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gloom.htm) can really add some uber-punch to your Hide and Move Silent. Not to mention the other goodies involved with the monsters form.

[SartheKobold]

At high levels another great thing is Shapechange. The Gloom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gloom.htm) can really add some uber-punch to your Hide and Move Silent. Not to mention the other goodies involved with the monsters form.

He would need at least 25HD to do so, but Gloom is at the high-end of Shapechange's HD range so it may be viable. Still, they gain more out of Move Silently than Hide.

It should be noted that they Sneak Attack as a 25th Level Rogue as an (Ex) ability. Shapechange only says you lose (Su) abilities of your original form, but I wonder if the Sneak Attack damage stacks, or supersedes your existing Sneak Attack? But that's kind of off topic.

If you were to grab Invisibility for +40 when standing still, and then teleport for your mobility, it's a pretty good bonus for the price. Maybe double it up with the Invisible Fog technique...

[faceroll]

Invisible fog is a bummer if you have see invis and no way to see through/around fog.

[Hyfigh]

He wouldn't need 25HD, he'd need a CL of 25. That's... Not hard to acheive. Likewise, it doesn't change the fact that it's a legitimate option.

Edit: The invisibility thing is an oddity to me. The hide skill specifies the bonus as long as you are under effect of invisibilty. Piercing the invisibility doesn't mean that you are no longer under the effect of the spell... Dispelling it would be different. Meh, food for thought.

[faceroll]

He wouldn't need 25HD, he'd need a CL of 25. That's... Not hard to acheive. Likewise, it doesn't change the fact that it's a legitimate option.

Edit: The invisibility thing is an oddity to me. The hide skill specifies the bonus as long as you are under effect of invisibilty. Piercing the invisibility doesn't mean that you are no longer under the effect of the spell... Dispelling it would be different. Meh, food for thought.

Shapechange, like Polymorph and Alter Self, is capped by CL or HD of target creature, whichever is lower.

[SartheKobold]

He wouldn't need 25HD, he'd need a CL of 25. That's... Not hard to acheive. Likewise, it doesn't change the fact that it's a legitimate option.

Edit: The invisibility thing is an oddity to me. The hide skill specifies the bonus as long as you are under effect of invisibilty. Piercing the invisibility doesn't mean that you are no longer under the effect of the spell... Dispelling it would be different. Meh, food for thought.

I never said Gloom wasn't an option, simply that he needed to scrape 25HD out of Shapechange to do so. Gloom is a pretty good option, actually, but one that would require some pretty heavy resources to garner on a regular basis.

Edit for Further Consideration

A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance).

In a strict reading, being invisible seems to make it easier for him to be noticed than if he'd just used his hide skill. Moving while invisible makes it a flat DC30 to be noticed, whereas even rolling a 1 at +44 would make it at least DC40 with a -5 penalty for moving...

[Hyfigh]

Apologies. I misread.

Yes, the very strict stance I had taken on invisibility would be sub-optimal really.

[JaronK]

Some notes:

First off, remember there's a -1 penalty to spot for every 10 feet away you are. These critters aren't going to detect you from 100 feet out even if they start pretty close to your same bonus. There's also an IIRC -4 penalty if they're distracted in any way. So if you're just scouting for a group you simply need to be able to detect them at long range (Lifesense and Mindsight make this trivially easy) before they have a chance to spot you.

Second, it's really not that hard to get a super high hide score. An Item Familiar alone would give +23 to hide at this level if you wanted. Items like the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis and your basic skill boost items (especially if those items give different bonuses, like a +10 comp bonus to hide and a +10 insight bonus to hide) can really help too if Item Familiar isn't available. Even being a Factotum (Int to hide) can help a great deal, and races like Whispergnome can do quite a bit.

This might help you, by the way: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11034.0

JaronK

[Geigan]

Unrelated argument in unrelated spoiler

If this is how you feel, then D&D is the wrong game for you. The whole point of D&D is randomness and luck...and this is, in fact, why D&D is a Dice Role-Playing game.

If you want a game where you take a skill or power and become invincible, that is not D&D. Even more so 3X is all about opposed d20 checks as a base mechanic. It's not my skill is so high I'm unbeatable, it's your skill vs their skill, with random chance every time the dice are rolled.

And you should note that you can never eliminate chance or luck from the equation, as things do just happen(and note this is true in real life too...)

I apologize, "eliminate luck from the equation" was a misnomer. I should have said push luck in your favor. I'm not saying I want no risk, but I don't see "the whole point of D&D" as a game of chance. Sure we're adventurers whom to "never tell me the odds" is a favorite line, but we still try our best to be good at the skills we use. We're pushing the equation in our favor so we have a better chance of doing the things we're good at. Optimizing to get the most out of our characters isn't a crime. If he can beat the spot check of most creatures then that means his character is just good at doing what he does best. If the DM wants to make it harder for him he can raise the spot check(boring), or do something along the lines of what I suggested. Give him a set of choices and see how he navigates them(choices of cover, which path to take, which guard does he think he can sneak past, etc.). My point was that even if the hide check is ridiculously high there are still ways to challenge the character. If his role in the party is to not be seen, then why do we have to tell him he's wrong for trying to get better at that?
As for the relevant topic:

SRD on Special Abilities (Invisibilty)
A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance).

I think this is a bit poorly worded. I think I'd rule that this only applies to those who aren't bothering to hide in the first place and that those who are actually making use of the skill still can use the concealment to hide.

Of course I wouldn't recommend relying on invisibility to any decent sneak in the first place as a lot of creatures at those levels have truesight(balor for example), or many other ways to see right through it. Hide in plain sight is always good for finding cover when needed. Cover and concealment are your resources, if you don't have them then you can't sneak so find ways to get them.