Thog's alignment: Evil or not [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

amatulic

2011-04-19, 07:20 PM

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-19, 07:24 PM

Let's use an analogy to express my views on this subject.

Thog is like the kid who pulls wings off flies, except in this case the flies are commoners and he's using a greataxe.

Nale, on the other hand, is the kid who sets fire to anthills for the purposes of being able to set fire to more anthills.

Thog isn't goal-oriented. When he's with Nale, he's a mass-murderer on a leash, and when he's with Elan, he's a lovable dimwitted thug. We may need to know more about his intent, rather than just his actions, but right now I'm thinking he's evil.

Valley

2011-04-19, 07:24 PM

The recent reappearance of Thog and accompanying discussion here prompted me to think back over what I've seen of Thog in the comic, and I just can't bring myself to believe that Thog is evil-aligned.

True, he consorts with evil. But in the theme of the Linear Guild being opposite, there's no requirement for the opposites to correspond character by character. So we have evil-aligned Belkar associating with a good-aligned party, why not a good-aligned character associating with an evil-aligned party?

Personality-wise, Thog seems like Elan: Innocent, completely without guile, wants to do the right thing, wants to please others. Thog also seems happy to meet just about anybody, even if it's an enemy. He's kind of lovable in his way, as the crowd in the arena will attest. Yes, Thog kills many people, but he seems to do so with an innocence of a child who doesn't know better.

I think Thog leans toward good. I can't figure him out on the lawful-chaotic scale though.
-A

Before we get into a million year old debate about the nature of good vs. evil vs. puppies....why don't we just look at what Rich has written about Thog, if anything? There has to be, somewhere, in the books or someplace in the threads, something about Thog and the others being the Evil versions of the Order of the Stick.
If Rich said Thog is the Evil Clone of Roy, than that should be enough to make him CE, right? If he is not...well, then let the games start....but it will just come to grief I tell ya!

doodthedud

2011-04-19, 07:25 PM

I think he adores rampaging violence and the pain he causes others and is evil.

However, wasn't a thread like, JUST locked over the same subject?

TriForce

2011-04-19, 07:33 PM

really? i figured the line in the latest comic "no matter how many people he kills, people still find him lovable" would get the message across, ah well, this seems to be in the same catagory as woman who get beaten up by their boyfriend/husband every week or so and still stay with him... some people just wont realize whats right in front of them

Who149

2011-04-19, 07:37 PM

The Giant pretty much confirmed he was Evil didn't he? He killed people. As lovable as he is, as charming and cute people find him, in the end he's Evil.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-19, 07:39 PM

I think he adores rampaging violence and the pain he causes others and is evil.

However, wasn't a thread like, JUST locked over the same subject?

No, that thread was locked because the question was "Thog is evil. But is he accountable?" on which the Giant's thoughts are pretty clear.

Zevox

2011-04-19, 08:07 PM

Thog is chaotic evil. He's a murderer who has directly killed more people than most non-Xykon villains in this strip, apparently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0362.html) enjoys it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html), and we see in the most recent strip that he doesn't care about those he killed or exhibit any guilt over their deaths when confronted about them. He's known to go on rampages when bored (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html) that can frighten Nale into changing his plans in order to avoid one. He's even suggested a torture method (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html) once. Yes, he's dumb, but no dumber than the average Orc in this world (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html).

Thog is chaotic evil. Whether his alignment could shift under other circumstances, such as if someone other than Nale were holding his leash, is debatable, but I don't see how anyone could reasonably believe he's any other alignment as-is.

Zevox

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-19, 08:09 PM

Is what we're saying that an evil child, regardless of child-ness, is still evil? I can get behind that.

Toofey

2011-04-19, 08:17 PM

If he can't be evil than someone that stupid couldn't be good, and we've all met paladins.

Zevox

2011-04-19, 08:19 PM

If he can't be evil than someone that stupid couldn't be good, and we've all met paladins.
More to the point, Elan's not much smarter, yet I don't think anyone could reasonably dispute his good alignment.

Zevox

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-19, 08:20 PM

If he can't be evil than someone that stupid couldn't be good, and we've all met paladins.

:smallamused:

You're sayin' O-Chul, Hinjo, and Lien are as dumb as Thog?

Toofey

2011-04-19, 08:24 PM

I'm saying it's not a class requirement.

Starscream

2011-04-19, 08:27 PM

hobbitkniver

2011-04-19, 09:06 PM

Personally, I'd peg him as neutral because he seems unwilling to decide anything for himself. He's like a pet.

hoff

2011-04-19, 09:29 PM

I always interpreted the good/evil alignment as selfish and non-selfish, it makes a lot more sense because selfish person is mostly not culture dependent.

In case of Thog he is definitely selfish (evil) because he only cares about his immediate needs, he wants ice cream he goes get ice cream and murders everyone that deny him his ice cream. Nale can command Thog because Nale can satisfy his needs. He likes to play with his axe, so he plays with it by murdering people.

Shhalahr Windrider

2011-04-19, 09:30 PM

Yes, Thog kills many people, but he seems to do so with an innocence of a child who doesn't know better.
You must have had an interesting childhood.

Porthos

2011-04-19, 09:36 PM

I can't figure him out on the lawful-chaotic scale though.
-A

:smallconfused::smallconfused::smallconfused:

Ignoring the whole "Thog is leaning toward good bit"...
:smallconfused::smallconfused::smallconfused:

...

I suspect you are having a laugh on us. :smallwink:

Green Bean

2011-04-19, 09:47 PM

The start point for "too dumb to be evil" is Intelligence 2. Any higher, and you're morally culpable for your actions. Thog is at least Intelligence 3.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-04-19, 09:49 PM

The start point for "too dumb to be evil" is Intelligence 2. Any higher, and you're morally culpable for your actions. Thog is at least Intelligence 3.

I think Thog has intelligence 6 and wisdom 6.

Dr.Epic

2011-04-19, 09:51 PM

Thog is quite literally chaotic stupid.

Darthteej

2011-04-19, 10:06 PM

Imagine, for a moment, that Thog actually existed. Just take away the half-orc part and imagine a man exactly the same being put on trial. You'd want to wring his neck.

Yes, D&D and OOtS are fantastic worlds(plus the parody part), but that doesn't take away at least some of the points about morality. Belkar and Thog are funny, adored by the community, and unquestionably evil mass-murderers.

headmonkeyboy

2011-04-19, 11:26 PM

In my opinion hes either Chaotic Nuetral or Chaotic Evil. Definately Chaotic though.

JonestheSpy

2011-04-19, 11:47 PM

Since no one responded to my bit of theoretical theater when I posted it in the main tread, I'll just repost here:

My $.02 about Thog: My impression is that he could be rehabilitated in about five minutes, if Nale were out of the picture. It would go like this:

Not-Nale: Oh no! Thog, I just found out something horrible!

Thog: Ice cream parlor out of Butter Brickle again?

Not-Nale: No, worse! It turns out that every time you murder an innocent person, Demogorgon kills a puppy!

Thog: WHAT?

Not-Nale: And then he punches a clown!

Thog: Oh noes!

Not Nale: The only thing to do is fight demon-worshipers until we get to Demogorgon and kick his ass!

Thog: Thog kick puppy-killing Demon Prince's ass!

Not Nale: Let's start with that tribe of bandit ogres right over there...

That's why I tend to think of Thog as dangerous but not evil the way a rational adult can be evil. If others disagree with this logic, I'd be interested to hear why.

Marnath

2011-04-19, 11:55 PM

Since no one responded to my bit of theoretical theater when I posted it in the main tread, I'll just repost here:

Just because you can take away a thug's shotgun and kill bad people with it, it doesn't stop being a shotgun, the nature of the weapon is unchanged.

You could redirect Thog to killing only bad people but that wouldn't make him a good person. He's still killing people to serve his own goals. (:thog: puppies!)

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-20, 12:06 AM

Just because you can take away a thug's shotgun and kill bad people with it, it doesn't stop being a shotgun, the nature of the weapon is unchanged.

You could redirect Thog to killing only bad people but that wouldn't make him a good person. He's still killing people to serve his own goals. (:thog: puppies!)

So... you're implying that evil is something inherent to Thog, in his very nature? Is that what you're implying?

John Cribati

2011-04-20, 12:09 AM

I think Thog is evil as well. Sure, he's dim enough to be outsmarted by Elan of all people, but he seems to know that what he's doing hurts people, and enjoy it. At the absolute Best (as in most Good), Thog is Neutral, heavily leaning toward evil.

torugo

2011-04-20, 12:09 AM

Thog is Chaotic Neutral.

Its not that he is childish or if he can make evil acts. No doubt the makes evil acts all the time. He is retarded and more than once seen as crazy. D&D has an alignment for crazy people...its chaotic neutral.

He is in a evil group so his "friends" takes influence in him that causes him to do evil acts more often than good ones. We dont follow him enough to say he doesnt do good acts. Remember V did horrible acts and lots of people still considers V neutral.

We only see Thog doing evil. But we dont see him so oftem as to say for sure he is evil and not neutral. He is crazy for sure, and that takes him to chaotic neutral.

Gift Jeraff

2011-04-20, 12:10 AM

Thog is just as Chaotic Evil as Belkar in my book. But all he needs is guidance from Not-Nale and see that Nale and Sabine don't care about him and he could be pitted against the Greater Evil much easier than the Belkster.

Forum Explorer

2011-04-20, 12:10 AM

Since no one responded to my bit of theoretical theater when I posted it in the main tread, I'll just repost here:

Thog is a lot like Belkar just with a lower Int score. Chaotic Evil and enjoys killing. A wise and good leader can direct him to do good, but overall Thog would still be killing because he enjoys killing.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-20, 12:22 AM

Its not that he is childish or if he can make evil acts. No doubt the makes evil acts all the time. He is retarded and more than once seen as crazy. D&D has an alignment for crazy people...its chaotic neutral.

No, it isn't. CN doesn't mean LOLSORANDUM XD, regardless of what you may think.

Lvl45DM!

2011-04-20, 12:25 AM

Since no one responded to my bit of theoretical theater when I posted it in the main tread, I'll just repost here:

See the problem with your analogy is that after he kills the big D to save puppies he would go right back to killing people for poops and giggles

And Chaotic Neutral doesnt JUST mean LOLRANDUMSXOXROFL! Jack Sparrow is Chaotic Neutral in the first Pirates movie, and was eccentric and possibly insane but not just acting randomly. However if someone WAS just acting at pure random doing good and evil and neutral acts but nothing lawful then he would be Chaotic Neutral as well

Marnath

2011-04-20, 12:26 AM

So... you're implying that evil is something inherent to Thog, in his very nature? Is that what you're implying?

Um, yes? He wasn't born evil surely, but he is definitely evil now. Alignment isn't just a badge you wear to show allegiance to one idea or another, it's who you are as a person I.E. your nature.

Warren Dew

2011-04-20, 12:27 AM

True, he consorts with evil. But in the theme of the Linear Guild being opposite, there's no requirement for the opposites to correspond character by character.
Well, except for the fact that Nale actually specifically hires them to be by character opposites.

Seriously: Nale, party leader, clever, lawful evil, Elan, ultimate follower, nescient, chaotic good.

Roy, party leader, worldly, lawful good, Thog, ultimate follower, naive, _______ ____ (fill in the blank).

Is what we're saying that an evil child, regardless of child-ness, is still evil? I can get behind that.
I certainly say that all the time in
Start of Darkness debates.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-20, 12:27 AM

Um, yes? He wasn't born evil surely, but he is definitely evil now. Alignment isn't just a badge you wear to show allegiance to one idea or another, it's who you are as a person I.E. your nature.

So you're implying that an evil person can't change? That, evil being inherent to their nature, they will never be good?

Because I don't think Thog is an Infernal or Abyssal, buddy.

Marnath

2011-04-20, 12:28 AM

So you're implying that an evil person can't change? That, evil being inherent to their nature, they will never be good?

No, I'm not. The nature of an individual is not immutable.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-20, 12:32 AM

No, I'm not. The nature of an individual is not immutable.

So comparing Thog to a shotgun...

Just because you can take away a thug's shotgun and kill bad people with it, it doesn't stop being a shotgun, the nature of the weapon is unchanged.

I'm pretty sure you're implying Thog's nature is immutable here.

Marnath

2011-04-20, 12:40 AM

So comparing Thog to a shotgun...

I'm pretty sure you're implying Thog's nature is immutable here.

He is currently evil. Nale uses him as a weapon. Using him as a weapon against bad people doesn't mean he'll become good. His reasons for killing don't change much, just his targets.

JonestheSpy

2011-04-20, 01:42 AM

He is currently evil. Nale uses him as a weapon. Using him as a weapon against bad people doesn't mean he'll become good. His reasons for killing don't change much, just his targets.

Well by your analogy Thog would definitely be neutral. A shotgun is just a tool, without motivation or goal, just doing what it's wielder makes it do.

Cisturn

2011-04-20, 02:05 AM

He's evil. The Giant even mentions it through Tarquin in the latest strip.

RunicLGB

2011-04-20, 02:24 AM

He's evil. The Giant even mentions it through Tarquin in the latest strip.

Tarquin never actually says evil. And he is adorable.

moving on, the other argument about Thog being some tool (shotgun) and thus being aimed as a means of calling his alignment one way or the other is moot because of one reason.

:belkar:

Quite simply, having someone else aim you at a certain group of alignment people doesn't make you the opposite of that alignment. More importantly, drawing any kind of enjoyment from mass murdering (which thog, adorable enjoyment or not, clearly does) IS WHAT MAKES YOU EVIL!!

Innis Cabal

2011-04-20, 02:36 AM

When he teamed up with Elan in their "wacky whirlwind adventure", they are described as being on "opposite ends of the alignment spectrum".

Somehow I doubt that was meant to imply that Thog is lawful.

Actually, going off D&D CG's counterpart is LE, so on the opposite end of the spectrum. Though I know that's just pedantic arguments. He's totally Chaotic Evil.

Fish

2011-04-20, 03:29 AM

There's plenty of evidence that Thog is genuinely, personally evil on his own merits, even when Nale is not telling him to be — sometimes when Nale is telling him not to be.

Without Nale looking over his shoulder, Thog kills a sylph, then deliberately conceals the murder. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0051.html)
:roy: Did I hear voices up here?
:thog: Thog alone.

Thog gloats that the Order of the Stick can't restore Celia (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html), even though Nale is telling him to stop gloating and to shut up.
:thog: Ha ha! They not have scroll!
:nale: Shut. Up.

Thog goes on rampages when he's bored, and Nale is doing everything he can to stop it, by feeding him ice cream. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html)
:thog: Oh, little ice cream friends! Thog delays boredom-driven rampage only for you!

Thog kills Larry Gardener without being told to. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0253.html)
:nale: Thog?
:thog: Little man talk funny. *slash*

Using Nale as an excuse for Thog's behavior doesn't wash.

Ancalagon

2011-04-20, 03:41 AM

Now I seriously hope Thog does not survive the next 10 comics, simply to end threads like these.

Miko being dead (dis)solved most of the Miko-threads quite well.

Thog is evil. Get over it. And you still can find the character funny.

Flame of Anor

2011-04-20, 03:42 AM

faustin

2011-04-20, 03:51 AM

Chaotic Neutral with evilish tendencies. :smallbiggrin:

Herald Alberich

2011-04-20, 04:17 AM

Chaotic Neutral with evilish tendencies. :smallbiggrin:

This gets me to thinking. I say Thog is quite certainly Chaotic Evil, but I could accept that he's more Chaotic than Evil. And D&D does allow for that, by having more than 9 Outer Planes. So, for those who are familiar with them, I rephrase the thread's question thus:

If Roy were to kill Thog in the next strip, would he go to the Abyss or Pandemonium?

faustin

2011-04-20, 04:30 AM

Actually, it was a reference to the guy who said Tarquin was "Lawful Neutral with evilish tendencies" :smalleek: Do bad guys need to use nuclear weapons or death stars to be considered true Evil?

ThePhantasm

2011-04-20, 04:38 AM

Thog enjoys killing just as much as he loves puppies and ice cream. Just because people think he's adorable because he likes the latter doesn't make him not evil for the former.

Krinn

2011-04-20, 05:55 AM

Childs can have an alignment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0496.html).
So if Thog is childlike, that makes him a "chaotic evil childlike" and deserves the big red CHAOTIC EVIL label on his head, childlike or not. Get over it.

Ancalagon

2011-04-20, 07:01 AM

Actually, it was a reference to the guy who said Tarquin was "Lawful Neutral with evilish tendencies" :smalleek: Do bad guys need to use nuclear weapons or death stars to be considered true Evil?

On this forum? You know, it's the place where people show up to argue genocide was actually a totally good and awesome deed.

As soon as the character blows up Alderaan while saying "For the puppy!" people will show up and argue Grand Moff Tarkin (not Tarquin!) was actually a nice, misunderstood caring individual who wants and does The Right Thing and should get promoted to Head-Plenatar of All-That-Is-Good in Celestia.

The Pilgrim

2011-04-20, 07:49 AM

As soon as the character blows up Alderaan while saying "For the puppy!" people will show up and argue Grand Moff Tarkin (not Tarquin!) was actually a nice, misunderstood caring individual who wants and does The Right Thing and should get promoted to Head-Plenatar of All-That-Is-Good in Celestia.

Hey, come on! Grand Moff Tarkin was a sensible guy!

He stopped Darth Vader from chocking people, that's a clear sign that he cared for the lives and dignity of sentient beings. He even refused to evacuate from the Death Star, choosing to share the destiny of his men. Commanding from the first line, instead of sending his soldiers to certain doom while hidding in the rear like a cowardly rat. He was a brave man indeed.

The destruction of Alderaan was a sad but merciful anti-insurgent measure aimed to dissuade other planets to join the evil Rebellion and spread senseless war. It was totally the Rebels' fault; should they had stood at home instead of resisting the benevolent Empire, no mass killing would have been necessary!

(So, how many points does this score in the table of crazy alignment justifications?)

PD: Thog is Evil, no doubt about it.

Nimrod's Son

2011-04-20, 07:59 AM

The SRD says that people from Alderaan are Always Chaotic Evil, anyway. It was definitely a good act.

MReav

2011-04-20, 07:59 AM

Hey, come on! Grand Moff Tarkin was a sensible guy!

He stopped Darth Vader from chocking people, that's a clear sign that he cared for the lives and dignity of sentient beings. He even refused to evacuate from the Death Star, choosing to share the destiny of his men. Commanding from the first line, instead of sending his soldiers to certain doom while hidding in the rear like a cowardly rat. He was a brave man indeed.

The destruction of Alderaan was a sad but merciful anti-insurgent measure aimed to dissuade other planets to join the evil Rebellion and spread senseless war. It was totally the Rebels' fault; should they had stood at home instead of resisting the benevolent Empire, no mass killing would have been necessary!

And indeed, the Death Stars were built with the express intention of stopping the Yuuzhan Vong invasion. The massive xenophobia The Empire enacted was to ensure that the freaky aliens could not infiltrate the command structure, because while they didn't know what they looked like, they knew they didn't look human. The slavery and oppression of the Wookies and the Mon Calamari? Palpatine foresaw them joining the extra-galactic invaders (and him preemptively and brutally enslaving and oppressing them had nothing to do with why they would join them later)...

Dark Matter

2011-04-20, 08:24 AM

However if someone WAS just acting at pure random doing good and evil and neutral acts but nothing lawful then he would be Chaotic Neutral as wellThat's a tough balancing act and it depends how dark your evil actions are. If you're nice to people 6 days of the week and a serial killer the 7th, you're not 'neutral'.

What we're seeing with Thog isn't presented as 'exceptional for the character'. I.e. V did a dark deed while under stress and now he's got a long road to make up for it.

Thog kills people on camera, and off camera. Random behavior which includes "sometimes I get bored and torture/kill people" might be more chaotic than evil, but it's still pretty evil.

Take Nale out of the picture and Thog would be less directed, more chaotic, and *perhaps* do fewer dark acts... or he might get bored and kill people more often.

So you're implying that an evil person can't change? That, evil being inherent to their nature, they will never be good?Do you see ANY evidence that Thog is unhappy serving Nale? That he doesn't actively enjoy being evil? Does he resist Nale's orders in any way? Compare Thog's enthusiastic actions to MMitD's resistance.

I think there's an argument for Thog being more C than E, but that's not the same.

Ancalagon

2011-04-20, 09:21 AM

I think the above discussion is moot.

On a scale of 1 to 100 for evil and another scale of 1 to 100 for chaos, Thog CLEARLY scores >75 on both, probably even >90 on both. So what are you discussing/argueing about? "Oh, Thog scores a 91 on evil and a 95 on chaos"?

Burner28

2011-04-20, 10:03 AM

What's the point of this thread? Heck the fact he felt no regrets for all the Evil-aligned deeds Roy called him out for here pretty much makes this thread pointless. Of course if one wants to Thog could be argued to be a very very loose definition of LawfulGood:smalltongue:! Anyone want to attempot to do this?

He is in a evil group so his "friends" takes influence in him that causes him to do evil acts more often than good ones. We dont follow him enough to say he doesnt do good acts. Remember V did horrible acts and lots of people still considers V neutral.

Really? Although it is possible for V to change his alignment back into True Neutral, I was pretty sure the familicide pushed him over to Neutral Evil. Heck the fact that the IFCC admitted that after the familicide (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) V had a 50-50 chance of ending up with them pretty much confirms the alignment of that particular deed.

John Cribati

2011-04-20, 10:35 AM

Really? Although it is possible for V to change his alignment back into True Neutral, I was pretty sure the familicide pushed him over to Neutral Evil. Heck the fact that the IFCC admitted that after the familicide (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) V had a 50-50 chance of ending up with them pretty much confirms the alignment of that particular deed.

Alignment affects actions. Not the other way around. The Familicide was an evil act, but that doesn't mean that it immediately overwrote V's alignment to Evil.

Burner28

2011-04-20, 10:37 AM

Alignment affects actions. Not the other way around. The Familicide was an evil act, but that doesn't mean that it immediately overwrote V's alignment to Evil.

Each death counts separately. Still we were here to discuss Thog's alignment. and if I derailed this topic then I am sorry.

Anyways, Thog is Evil, not Neutral.

John Cribati

2011-04-20, 10:38 AM

Each death counts as a separate evil act

Not what I meant. Being evil causes you to make evil decisions, but making evil decisions does not out-and-out cause you to be evil.

Burner28

2011-04-20, 10:40 AM

Not what I meant. Being evil causes you to make evil decisions, but making evil decisions does not out-and-out cause you to be evil.

Even if that was a huge amount of evil acts? Still as I said

Each death counts separately. Still we were here to discuss Thog's alignment. and if I derailed this topic then I am sorry.

Anyways, Thog is Evil, not Neutral.

John Cribati

2011-04-20, 10:55 AM

Even if that was a huge amount of evil acts? Still as I said

I am not denying that the act was evil. I am denying that performing the act Changed V's alignment.

"He did X, Y, and Z because he is evil"

is different from

"He is evil because he did X, Y, and Z."

The first could be logically written as "He is Evil; thus, he did X, Y, and Z," meaning that his alignment is proof that he did X, Y, and Z.

The second can be logically written as "He Did X, Y, and Z; thus, he is evil" meaning his doing X, Y, and Z is proof of his alignment.

The former is not a logically sound argument. The latter is.

Burner28

2011-04-20, 11:18 AM

The second can be logically written as "He Did X, Y, and Z; thus, he is evil" meaning his doing X, Y, and Z is proof of his alignment.

The former is not a logically sound argument. The latter is.

This is what I originally quoted

, I was pretty sure the familicide pushed him over to Neutral Evil.
I was arguing the latter kind of argument

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-20, 11:21 AM

Do you see ANY evidence that Thog is unhappy serving Nale? That he doesn't actively enjoy being evil? Does he resist Nale's orders in any way? Compare Thog's enthusiastic actions to MMitD's resistance.

I think there's an argument for Thog being more C than E, but that's not the same.

Oh, he's obviously evil currently. But to use Marnath's analogy - will he always be a shotgun?

PirateLizard

2011-04-20, 11:26 AM

Lets play "You Be the DM"! If you were DMing this game or another, would you allow Thog or any other character to murder 100 people in a city as well as countless others, and barring alignment disguising abilities, have him come off as non-evil to the next Paladin that goes hmmm and uses detect evil on him?

This user is not responsible for any bodily harm or other damages that may come to users successfully detecting Thog's alignment.

Scarlet Knight

2011-04-20, 11:33 AM

You must have had an interesting childhood.

Thog's mother: You must be loyal and true to your friends, Thog...

Thog's father: But crush your enemies! Show no mercy & revel in the glory of battle!

Ancalagon

2011-04-20, 11:58 AM

Alignment affects actions. Not the other way around. The Familicide was an evil act, but that doesn't mean that it immediately overwrote V's alignment to Evil.

Actions affect alignment. The alignment is not fixed role or code how you have to follow or that determines how you have to behave, it's the RESULT of your actions and motivations for them and how you see them afterwards. The alignment is not the CAUSE for your actions.

The trial in Celestia is pretty much proof of what I just said. You MIGHT interpret it differently in your version of D&D (I think you are wrong, but you COULD argue that way) but in OOTSverse it clearly works as pointed out above.

Gift Jeraff

2011-04-20, 12:04 PM

Actually, going off D&D CG's counterpart is LE, so on the opposite end of the spectrum. Though I know that's just pedantic arguments. He's totally Chaotic Evil.
LE, NE, and CE are on the opposite end of the alignment spectrum of CG. LE woud specifically be the opposite corner.

Ancalagon

2011-04-20, 12:07 PM

LE, NE, and CE are on the opposite end of the alignment spectrum of CG. LE woud specifically be the opposite corner.

Depending how you represent the alignments. You could say that L <> C and E <> G, so LG would be opposite to CE and CG would be opposite to LE. Makes sense to me.

What does this have to do with Thog being clearly CE?

John Cribati

2011-04-20, 12:13 PM

The trial in Celestia is pretty much proof of what I just said.

I had a long, drawn-out post here, but I believe we're getting far to off-topic. Let's just agree to disagree.

Lord Vampyre

2011-04-20, 12:16 PM

Each death counts separately. Still we were here to discuss Thog's alignment. and if I derailed this topic then I am sorry.

Anyways, Thog is Evil, not Neutral.

Actually, each act is considered separately. Just because he happened to commit one act that caused genocide of an entire species of dragon, does not cause it to tip the scales completely to evil. V still holds his neutrality, although he had crossed the line for a brief moment.

Well, except for the fact that Nale actually specifically hires them to be by character opposites.

Seriously: Nale, party leader, clever, lawful evil, Elan, ultimate follower, nescient, chaotic good.

Roy, party leader, worldly, lawful good, Thog, ultimate follower, naive, _______ ____ (fill in the blank).

This seems to be another fallacy. This logic breaks down when we get to Belkar. For it to be true, the kobold Nale hired would have to be LG, and be forced to work with an evil party to exact revenge for his father's death. However, revenge would push him towards the evil spectrum of the alignment pool, thus making the character LN at best.

As for Thog, I find him to be CE. However, due to his low intelligence score he is probably one of the only villians that could be redeemed from being evil.

Giggling Ghast

2011-04-20, 12:18 PM

Yes, Thog is just like a child.

An incredibly demented child who enjoys inflicting pain and suffering on others.

SoC175

2011-04-20, 12:28 PM

So comparing Thog to a shotgun...Because in the example he was answering to Thog is being used like a shotgun. Killing evil people doesn't make you good, Millions of fiends to this for their whole existence in the blood war and neither of them is good because of that.

Thog could change his nature, but simply letting him kill evil opponents for the wrong reasons won't do anything

Well by your analogy Thog would definitely be neutral. A shotgun is just a tool, without motivation or goal, just doing what it's wielder makes it do. Except that Thog deliberately enjoys killing. Nale even has to placate him to not have him start killing when it would be inappropriate for the LG

Gift Jeraff

2011-04-20, 12:28 PM

Depending how you represent the alignments. You could say that L <> C and E <> G, so LG would be opposite to CE and CG would be opposite to LE.
I just said LE would be the opposite corner of CG.:smallconfused:

golentan

2011-04-20, 12:30 PM

Thog is evil. He willfully and knowingly performs evil acts without any sign of remorse and with every evidence of enjoyment. He shows no interest whatsoever in changing, making it unlikely that he will stop being evil in any meaningful way in the foreseeable future.

The ability of anyone to link to a single panel resembling "feeling sorry for the people he killed" may cause me to reconsider whether he's redeemable, but not whether he's evil. And I do not believe such a panel exists, because I'm fair sure I would have remembered it.

He's arguably innocent. But innocent is (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PureIsNotGood) not good. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AmbiguousInnocence)

Bear in mind I like Thog. He's funny and personable and loyal and has one heck of a positive outlook on life. I just don't think he should be allowed near society or pointy objects, and particularly never in combination. And in all honesty it's probably for the best if Roy ends this permanently in the next couple of strips. I don't think Thog can be controlled or contained enough to save innocent lives otherwise.

SoC175

2011-04-20, 12:34 PM

TheSummoner

2011-04-20, 01:05 PM

An unfortunately sizable portion of this forum needs to get something through their heads... The way a character acts defines their alignment. Not the other way around.

Here is the way I've always seen things...

The alignment of any given act is a combination of the outcome of the act itself and the intention behind it. A character's alignment is equal to the overall total of his or her actions with evil weighted more heavily.

A good act is one that helps others.
A neutral act does not significantly affect anyone other than the person doing the act. These can be selfish acts or acts motivated by personal reasons so long as they do not come at the expense of others.
An evil act is one that harms others. These often are motivated by selfish desires by people who do not care for others affected.

A good character is someone whose actions are primarily for the greater good... For people other than themselves. (I fight the evil warlord because he is oppressing the masses and harming the innocent.)
A neutral character is someone whose actions are primarily self-motivated, but does not violate the rights of others for personal gain (I fight the evil warlord because he is responsible for the death of my wife and son.)
An evil character is someone whose actions harm others. (I fight the evil warlord because once he is out of the way, I can take his place!)

Only an idiot is evil for evil's sake. An evil character is not going to slaughter a village just because he can. However, an evil character would be perfectly willing to slaughter that same village if he had something to gain from it. - A group of barbarians raid the village for plunder. An evil warlord has the village wiped off the map because he has reason to believe it is the base of a rebellion.

Anyways... The point of all this... Thog.

Thog's motivations are neutral.

:thog: thog likes puppies. nale is thog's bestest friend, thog want to make nale happy. thog want ice cream. thog want to go on whirlwind adventure with not-nale. squishy-man make funny sounds. thog doesn't like police, fudge the police.

There is no malice in what he does. His motivations are primarily to please the people he considers his friends. He is a follower... Dumb muscle in its purest form.

His actions on the other hand are undoubtedly evil.

Thog kills on command. Though it isn't his first response when acting on his own, he has no problems with killing the innocent. He is working for an evil... well, not mastermind, but Nale wishes he was... willingly and he seems to enjoy it (:thog: nale is thog's bestest friend.). While he doesn't seem to understand the harm his actions cause, that does not lessen their effects.

So overall, Thog is certainly Chaotic Evil. This is because of the environment hs is in, not because of his own nature. Thog's evil is a direct result of Nale's influence. I do not know if Thog's backstory has ever been hinted on (The only book I own is DStP), but I would be willing to bet that before he met Nale, he was still a dumb-muscle brute, but that he did not actively harm others.

If Nale were taken out of the picture, I believe Thog could be redeemed. He considers Elan a friend, so given time, Elan could probably teach Thog why his previous actions were wrong and make Thog a better person. If this were to happen though, The Order could not kill Nale (or at least, Thog could not know that they killed him). Nale is irredeemably evil, but Thog considers him a friend. His reaction to Nale being killed would not be pretty.

Even if Thog was taught acceptable behavior, it wouldn't erase his previous actions. At best, Thog could become Chaotic Neutral, attempting to atone for his crimes and committing genuinely good acts. Even that would be difficult though...

Unlike say, V or Miko who each committed a single (major) evil act in a moment of passion, Thog has a long history of evil from following Nale around.

Zaydos

2011-04-20, 01:15 PM

This gets me to thinking. I say Thog is quite certainly Chaotic Evil, but I could accept that he's more Chaotic than Evil. And D&D does allow for that, by having more than 9 Outer Planes. So, for those who are familiar with them, I rephrase the thread's question thus:

If Roy were to kill Thog in the next strip, would he go to the Abyss or Pandemonium?

Acheron, that's where the god of orcs traditionally makes his home :smalltongue:

Okay seriously assuming Thog didn't have a patron deity who took him to their realm (as that's why Illithids go to the Outlands and orcs go to Acheron despite being often Chaotic Evil), I'd have said Pandemonium until I read the latest strip. Now I'd say the Abyss.

Burner28

2011-04-20, 01:23 PM

Seriously, looking at the recent discussion thread, you think these guys must be joking. I mean seriously saying Thog is Chaotic Neutral is pretty farfetched,-But if they are serious...:smalleek:

MReav

2011-04-20, 01:31 PM

Oh, he's obviously evil currently. But to use Marnath's analogy - will he always be a shotgun?

THOG! YOU'RE NOT AN AXE!

:thog:: but thog like being sharp.

Comet

2011-04-20, 01:33 PM

They have a crush on a fictional character. It happens. I myself find Thog quite the charmer, though not to the degree that true fans do.

Asta Kask

2011-04-20, 01:36 PM

There was a strong group insisting that Belkar wasn't evil... it happens.

Naris

2011-04-20, 01:36 PM

Think it's because they feel he's too dumb to grasp the true evil in his own actions. They may have a point, but the fact that what he does IS evil has been pointed out to him on many occasions with him completely unrepentant (or even proud) suggests that he is in fact chaotic evil.

Granted he probably does get close to the line between chaotic neutral and evil more often than not...

Branco

2011-04-20, 01:49 PM

Though there is the other extreme side of people who believe everyone is evil, even a paladin killing Adolf Hitler is.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51963

Ron Miel

2011-04-20, 01:53 PM

I think that Thog is just too stupid to be evil. He just doesn't know what he's doing.

Burner28

2011-04-20, 01:58 PM

Jair Barik

2011-04-20, 02:01 PM

This happens with any fictional character who a group feels attatched to. Whatever the argument they will go to strange lengths to argue that their view is correct.

Examples on this board.
-Thog not evil
-Belkar not evil.
-Over at Demotivators thread you get lots of Batman is- alignment x, Doctor Who is alignment x ones (though this is rarely argument between posters more posters commenting on how people argue about those characters alignments)
-Over at the MSPA thread (not too bad on gitp but you should see the debates on the offical forum) a fan favourite character faced imminent death but had a scene change away from the sight of the act itself. Despite all evidence to the contrary (the killer walking around with her blood on his club, wearing pieces of her clothing etc.) people continued to argue that she was still alive. After an update showing her dead people still continue to argue that she isn't.

Effectively people will argue anything about their favourite character.

G-Man Graves

2011-04-20, 02:14 PM

The recent reappearance of Thog and accompanying discussion here prompted me to think back over what I've seen of Thog in the comic, and I just can't bring myself to believe that Thog is evil-aligned.

Okay, that seems a little far fetched, but maybe it gets better...

True, he consorts with evil. But in the theme of the Linear Guild being opposite, there's no requirement for the opposites to correspond character by character. So we have evil-aligned Belkar associating with a good-aligned party, why not a good-aligned character associating with an evil-aligned party?

We do. That kobold in cliffport was good, even calling the rest of the linear guild evil. Also, the requirement seems to have been set by Nale.

Nale LE = Elan CG
Sabine LE? = Haley CG?
Thog CE = Roy LG

Personality-wise, Thog seems like Elan: Innocent, completely without guile, wants to do the right thing, wants to please others. Thog also seems happy to meet just about anybody, even if it's an enemy. He's kind of lovable in his way, as the crowd in the arena will attest. Yes, Thog kills many people, but he seems to do so with an innocence of a child who doesn't know better.

I think Thog leans toward good. I can't figure him out on the lawful-chaotic scale though.
-A

If you point out a single good action that Thog does without being manipulated, I will concede this point. In the mean time, I will draw your attention to the hundreds of murders he has performed.

Forum Staff

2011-04-20, 02:15 PM

Two threads debating Thog's alignment have been merged.

Remember to keep discussions centered around whether Thog is Evil or not, not whether or not he is culpable or justified or what have you. Consider this an official warning to everyone on this thread; anyone straying in that direction will get a warning for being Off-Topic.

Ron Miel

2011-04-20, 02:22 PM

That is kinda like saying that Elan is too stupid to be Good which really is not a good argument. Stupid people can still be evil and Stupid. Heck the fact (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0051.html)he hid the fact he killed that poor sylph by lying to Roy about being alone, shows he has some capability to recognize what he has done.

But that strip was early in the comic's development, when it was more or less a gag-a-day strip, and the overall plot arc hadn't been thought out yet.

Compare the MITD (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0023.html)from about the same period. He seems distinctly evil there, right? Do you think he has evil alignment?

Burner28

2011-04-20, 02:23 PM

But that strip was early in the comic's development, when it was more or less a gag-a-day strip, and the overall plot arc hadn't been thought out yet.

Compare the MITD (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0023.html)from about the same period. He seems distinctly evil there, right? Do you think he has evil alignment?

To be fair I don't actually know what the Monster in the Darkness' alignment is.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-20, 02:24 PM

But that strip was early in the comic's development, when it was more or less a gag-a-day strip, and the overall plot arc hadn't been thought out yet.

That's no excuse. What's canon is canon, no matter how much you might impute a perceived personality discrepancy to "early installment weirdness".

Knaight

2011-04-20, 02:33 PM

Though there is the other extreme side of people who believe everyone is evil, even a paladin killing Adolf Hitler is.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51963

That the paladin had no idea of Hitler's actions was a key point in that, and leaving that out is potentially somewhat deceptive.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-20, 02:37 PM

Though there is the other extreme side of people who believe everyone is evil, even a paladin killing Adolf Hitler is.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51963

That's possibly the worst thought-out excuse to invoke Godwin AND start a Paladin flamefest I've ever seen.

And it has nothing to do with Thog.

Ron Miel

2011-04-20, 02:50 PM

If you point out a single good action that Thog does without being manipulated, I will concede this point. In the mean time, I will draw your attention to the hundreds of murders he has performed.

Many of Thog's actions seem to be good intentioned, even if they have harmful results. For example, when Nale kidnapped Mr Real Blacksmith, Thog thinks he's taking care of a puppy. He breaks out of prison thanks to his rage against the evil iron bars that punched a clown. And he rushes off to help Nale who he thinks is lost without a trail of breadcrumbs.

He's a nice guy who happens to be very stupid. He does what he thinks are good things, although he's confused about what's really going on. He wouldn't be a bad guy if he hadn't happened to fall under Nale's influence.

As for the murders, maybe Nale told him all those people are bad guys who kicked a puppy and should be punished. It would be another example of him doing good in his own mind.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-20, 02:53 PM

He's a nice guy who happens to be very stupid. He does what he thinks are good things, although he's confused about what's really going on. He wouldn't be a bad guy if he hadn't happened to fall under Nale's influence.

No, no, no. He does what he enjoys. He does what he finds he likes. Ice Cream, Puppies, and brutal violence are among those things.

You're imputing to Thog motives we have no evidence for. Nale simply tells him to do something - or in Larry Gardener's case, simply says his name - and Thog gets with the killing.

SoC175

2011-04-20, 02:54 PM

Thog's motivations are neutral. You mean like going on murderous rampage because he's bored? Very neutral

His motivations are primarily to please the people he considers his friends. And pleasing himself by inflicting pain on others

Thog kills on command. Or out or boredom

Acheron, that's where the god of orcs traditionally makes his home :smalltongue: However that's a LE plane and the orcish pantheon was placed there because they (and the orcs) were traditionally lawful evil.

turkishvan2

2011-04-20, 03:12 PM

Thog kills Larry Gardener without being told to. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0253.html)
:nale: Thog?
:thog: Little man talk funny. *slash*

I'm not defending Thog, but Nale did tell him to kill Larry.
On the topic of the thread:Yes, Thog is evil. Deal with it. A character can be evil and you can still like them. Xykon, Belkar, and Thog are some of my favorite characters

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-20, 03:15 PM

Yes, Thog is evil. Deal with it. A character can be evil and you can still like them.

Yeah. Most people get that. It's the ones who are arguing that he's not evil, presumably out of personal bias, that are the problem.

SincroFashad

2011-04-20, 03:39 PM

Is Thog as evil as Belkar? No.

But that's like saying arsenic is less deadly then cyanide. Both will kill you, but it takes a lot less cyanide to get the job done.

Thog is definitely evil. But I bet the outer planes don't measure it in kilonazis.

-Sinc

Fish

2011-04-20, 04:01 PM

I'm not defending Thog, but Nale did tell him to kill Larry.
No, he didn't. I quoted Nale's dialogue in my post. He says "We don't have time for this. Thog?" and Thog slays the kid. Thog didn't say, "What?" or "What should I do?" or "Are we leaving now?" or ask for clarification in any way, nor did Nale compel Thog to unwillingly kill a defenseless person right in front of his headmaster.

Yes, I agree Thog is evil.

Flame of Anor

2011-04-20, 04:34 PM

To be fair I don't actually know what the Monster in the Darkness' alignment is.

Pretty sure it's Spineless Good.

JonestheSpy

2011-04-20, 04:36 PM

No, he didn't. I quoted Nale's dialogue in my post. He says "We don't have time for this. Thog?" and Thog slays the kid. Thog didn't say, "What?" or "What should I do?" or "Are we leaving now?" or ask for clarification in any way, nor did Nale compel Thog to unwillingly kill a defenseless person right in front of his headmaster.

Actually, that just means Thog is well-trained. Animals can learn to perform lots of complicated tasks commanded by simple signals.

Fish

2011-04-20, 04:43 PM

I think you're using the word "means" improperly in that sentence. You have no evidence to suggest Thog is unwilling, or trained, or being rewarded for a certain behavior, or that he responds to the word "Thog" as a command meaning "kill." There is no evidence to support that interpretation whatsoever. In point of fact, they reward Thog with ice cream for NOT being on a rampage.

So yeah ... it doesn't "mean" that at all, because the argument is circular: stipulating that Thog isn't evil and simply obeys Nale, this evidence supports our stipulation.

Got anything else?

theNater

2011-04-20, 04:47 PM

For example, when Nale kidnapped Mr Real Blacksmith, Thog thinks he's taking care of a puppy.
That's one interpretation of what happened there. However, there is just as much evidence that Thog wanted to play pretend, and was forcing Mr. Real Blacksmith to participate against his will.

Burner28

2011-04-20, 04:55 PM

There is also the matter of his glee when attempting to kill the Order of the Stick (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html) And here is another piece of evidence of Thog taking glee in something, wanting to finish off Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html)

hamishspence

2011-04-20, 04:59 PM

Not to mention his enthusiasm for finishing off Elan, here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html
and here:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0066.html

EDIT: Swordsaged.

Burner28

2011-04-20, 05:03 PM

Not to mention his enthusiasm for finishing off Elan, here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html
and here:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html

EDIT: Swordsaged.

And in that same strip Thog expressed a desire to crush a person who has never done anything to him before that point. And here is where he glees at finishing off Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0066.html)

And here he is laughing at the fact the Order of the Stick do not have the scroll needed to turn Celia back (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html)

Scarlet Knight

2011-04-20, 05:09 PM

It is true that Thog's actions make him evil, yet don't you feel that if he was with the Order of the Stick, he would just as easily do good things? Slice for right, so to speak?

I get the impression that Nale will always be plotting revenge for some slight, & Sabine always trying to seduce a soul, but Thog would adjust to good (ok, neutral) so much easier than Belkar.

DrGonzo

2011-04-20, 05:14 PM

Oh, he may adjust, but he still kills for fun. Killing for fun is evil.

amatulic

2011-04-20, 05:26 PM

You must have had an interesting childhood. I wish... -A

amatulic

2011-04-20, 05:33 PM

Well, except for the fact that Nale actually specifically hires them to be by character opposites.

Seriously: Nale, party leader, clever, lawful evil, Elan, ultimate follower, nescient, chaotic good.

Roy, party leader, worldly, lawful good, Thog, ultimate follower, naive, _______ ____ (fill in the blank).
So, whom in the Linear Guild would you say is Belkar's Lawful Good opposite?

I don't think there was any such character. The Kobold opposite to Belkar was at best neutral. I also don't think that opposing alignments in the Linear Guild necessarily correspond one-for-one by character.

If Thog isn't good-then who?

-A

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-20, 05:36 PM

So, whom in the Linear Guild would you say is Belkar's Lawful Good opposite?

I don't think there was any such character. The Kobold opposite to Belkar was at best neutral. I also don't think that opposing alignments in the Linear Guild necessarily correspond one-for-one by character.

If Thog isn't good-then who?

-A

Yeah, Yikyik was an evil or neutral Kobold Ranger.

I wonder if Yokyok counts as good. He certainly sounded all shiny and noble. And like Inigo Montoya.

EDIT: Also, Yikyik had been with Nale since his takeover attempt against Tarquin two years before...

G-Man Graves

2011-04-20, 05:42 PM

Compare the MITD (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0023.html)from about the same period. He seems distinctly evil there, right? Do you think he has evil alignment?

He seems more concerned with getting let out of the dark and impressing Xykon than actually hurting anyone.

Squark

2011-04-20, 05:50 PM

Yikyik was supposed to be someone Belkar would absolutely loathe. And that someone was... himself, but with scales and a tail.

Yokyok... we didn't see enough of him to know what his alignment was.

As for Thog, Thog is a Chaotic Evil murderer with a childlike personality because that's what Roy would hate the most; A slaughter happy hedonist like Xykon, but with Elan's capacity to annoy him.

Dark Matter

2011-04-20, 07:03 PM

Oh, he's obviously evil currently. But to use Marnath's analogy - will he always be a shotgun?Probably. I find it much easier to think of Red Cloak reforming than Thog. For that matter I find it easier to think of Belkar reforming. He's pretending to not be evil so he *might* see the lighter side of things and decide he enjoys it.

Thog is Evil because he enjoys and sees nothing wrong with it. Fundamentally that's "evil for evil's sake" and it's similar to Xykon and pre-'reform' Belkar. Being stupid isn't an excuse, it's a handicap. Thog hits the radar as one of the more evil characters in the comic.

Thog showing he likes puppies: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html

MReav

2011-04-20, 08:31 PM

I wonder if Yokyok counts as good. He certainly sounded all shiny and noble. And like Inigo Montoya..

I wouldn't He let Nale rampage across Cliffport. I think most good people would prioritize saving people over revenge, and most certainly would prioritize stopping a villain from mass murdering people over revenge.

Flame of Anor

2011-04-20, 10:18 PM

Let me just point out here how the Giant himself is giving a dig at the people who think Thog is not evil.

It's weird, no matter how many people he kills, the audience still thinks he's lovable.

golentan

2011-04-20, 10:32 PM

Let me just point out here how the Giant himself is giving a dig at the people who think Thog is not evil.

Well, but Lovable and Evil aren't mutually (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvillyAffable) exclusive (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AffablyEvil). I think thog is both lovable and unambiguously evil, as I outlined in greater depth earlier.

JonestheSpy

2011-04-20, 10:40 PM

There's also a pretty profound difference between "evil children" and "evil adults", which is my basic point.

skim172

2011-04-20, 10:52 PM

I'm getting that people are saying that Thog is somehow too unintelligent to be evil. I'd point out that this assumes that intelligence is a requirement for evil. People who are unintelligent, foolish, unwise, or even mentally disabled are all able to commit evil deeds with evil intent. To suggest otherwise is extremely insulting to people with mental handicaps, since that would suggest that they are not accountable for their own actions.

Thog kills in mass numbers, for the fun of it, with premeditation, and feels no remorse. He's not doing it because he doesn't understand the consequences - quite the opposite. He takes pleasure in the death of others and actively seeks it.

Yes, he does show loyalty to Nale. But is he loyal to Nale because he doesn't know any better or because Nale allows him to do what he wants?

So yes, he's a child pulling wings off a fly. But that image suggests curiosity, without understanding what the action means. Thog pulls wings off a fly because he likes it. He's the sociopath who tortures small animals in his youth.

Flame of Anor

2011-04-21, 04:17 AM

Well, but Lovable and Evil aren't mutually (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvillyAffable) exclusive (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AffablyEvil). I think thog is both lovable and unambiguously evil, as I outlined in greater depth earlier.

The problem is that sort of attitude can only be maintained by a good person towards a fictional character. While that's not in itself a problem, if you get to thinking that IRL psychopaths are lovable, well...

Heksefatter

2011-04-21, 04:54 AM

Thog kills innocent people without regret and clearly enjoys it. Indeed said enjoyment seems to be his motive for killing.

In short: He's evil.

His stupidity does not excuse him. He's not an animal.

golentan

2011-04-21, 01:54 PM

The problem is that sort of attitude can only be maintained by a good person towards a fictional character. While that's not in itself a problem, if you get to thinking that IRL psychopaths are lovable, well...

Not true. I can still feel empathy and affection for anyone. Doesn't mean I don't recognize them as "dangerous" or "to be stopped."

In fact, I'd argue it's less good to lose empathy.

Flame of Anor

2011-04-21, 09:03 PM

Not true. I can still feel empathy and affection for anyone. Doesn't mean I don't recognize them as "dangerous" or "to be stopped."

In fact, I'd argue it's less good to lose empathy.

That's not what I meant. Empathy is not what the people are feeling who say "Thog/Belkar/etc. isn't actually evil, because he's cute/funny/etc."

golentan

2011-04-21, 09:51 PM

???

I'm so confused by what you're trying to say.

Lurkmoar

2011-04-21, 10:08 PM

???

I'm so confused by what you're trying to say.

Think he's trying to say that he's worried that some people really like mass murderers. It's fine to empathize with them... but keep your fingers away, they bite.

golentan

2011-04-21, 10:14 PM

Think he's trying to say that he's worried that some people really like mass murderers. It's fine to empathize with them... but keep your fingers away, they bite.

Yes, but my point is that liking them doesn't interfere with recognizing the need for hindering their proclivities, and that last post just seemed like such a non-sequitur to me from the preceding...

Rar.

Lurkmoar

2011-04-21, 10:15 PM

I dunno, maybe he's getting sick of all the bad guys slipping into leather pants or something.

Harry Tuttle

2011-04-21, 10:38 PM

I've always thought the Giant was presenting us with two versions of chaotic neutral, one heroic and one villainous , in Haley and Thogg respectively.

the_tick_rules

2011-04-21, 10:55 PM

Thog's totally evil, he's just also happens to be stupid.

Lateral

2011-04-21, 11:01 PM

I've always thought the Giant was presenting us with two versions of chaotic neutral, one heroic and one villainous , in Haley and Thogg respectively.

...What? Villainous Chaotic Neutral is Chaotic Evil, and heroic CN would be Chaotic Good. That's, like, their definitions- Chaotic, and a hero, or chaotic and a villain/bastard/what have you.

Mystic Muse

2011-04-21, 11:33 PM

Flame of Anor

2011-04-22, 12:46 AM

I dunno, maybe he's getting sick of all the bad guys slipping into leather pants or something.

EXACTLY.

...What? Villainous Chaotic Neutral is Chaotic Evil, and heroic CN would be Chaotic Good. That's, like, their definitions- Chaotic, and a hero, or chaotic and a villain/bastard/what have you.

What Lateral said.

GalenDev

2011-04-22, 02:09 AM

Honestly, I look at Thog, and I honestly see Chaotic Neutral. Don't get me wrong, he definitely leans close to Evil (and probably flipflops quite often), and he's still a murderer. Make no mistake about it, he needs to be punished for his actions.

It's a matter of intent. In a legal court, there's a very realistic chance he'd be found Non Compus Mentus (sp? my Latin/legalese isn't what it used to be) due to mental disability. I look at his actions and see someone uncompelled by good and evil, and without understanding right or wrong. It's not sociopathy, it's not malice, it's... insanity coupled with cripplingly low intelligence. Were Elan his "leash-holder" (as an earlier poster coined), I sincerely doubt Thog would be nearly as violent, but I believe he would still basically be Thog.

Now, I'd like to go on record that I have no intention of excusing him of his crimes. NCM and/or Not Guilty by way of Mental Disease or Defect findings spend on average more time in a mental institution than they would have were they simply found Guilty. And beyond that, alcoholics still see time when they hit someone while driving, mental disease or no. But in the singular question of Thog's culpability (and supposed Evil-alignment), I have to say no, I do not believe that Thog is textbook-definition Evil.

Hake

2011-04-22, 03:54 AM

A character being a little slow doesn't mean he has no understanding of what he's doing. Thog may have only a basic idea of what death is but he surely knows pain and enjoys inflicting it on others. Having the ability to understand the feelings of others and never bothering to consider them (because they aren't personally important to you) screams evil to me.

If anyone wants to argue that Thog is unaware that people he doesn't personally know are real people too well thats possible and considering that he may be neutral. Otherwise slaughtering innocents when you have even the slightest clue what you're doing is evil.

Icedaemon

2011-04-22, 06:24 AM

Thog is Chaotic Neutral.

Its not that he is childish or if he can make evil acts. No doubt the makes evil acts all the time. He is retarded and more than once seen as crazy. D&D has an alignment for crazy people...its chaotic neutral.

This is a bit of an outdated concept. There are after all many flavours of crazy (trust me, I know).

aldeayeah

2011-04-22, 07:25 AM

Seriously: Nale, party leader, clever, lawful evil.

Nale? Lawful!? I had him down as NE/CE.

hamishspence

2011-04-22, 07:29 AM

He self-labels as Lawful Evil:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html

but there may be better evidence than this.

lobablob

2011-04-22, 07:30 AM

Since no one responded to my bit of theoretical theater when I posted it in the main tread, I'll just repost here:

Your argument seems to be that Thog isn't evil, because if he could be convinced that all evil acts are against his interests and that good acts contribute to his interests, he could cease doing evil acts and start doing good acts. The only way this test could demonstrate that Thog isn't evil, is if the definition of evil were to be accepted as - Always doing the most evil action available, even if a good act would provide more satisfaction and contribute more to your goals.

I think that under this test, no sane person could ever be considered evil, because presumably sane people only do evil for a reason, even if that reason is only satisfaction and if you could convince them that a good action would fulfill that reason better, they would cease doing evil things.

MReav

2011-04-22, 07:46 AM

It's a matter of intent. In a legal court, there's a very realistic chance he'd be found Non Compus Mentus (sp? my Latin/legalese isn't what it used to be) due to mental disability. I look at his actions and see someone uncompelled by good and evil, and without understanding right or wrong. It's not sociopathy, it's not malice, it's... insanity coupled with cripplingly low intelligence. Were Elan his "leash-holder" (as an earlier poster coined), I sincerely doubt Thog would be nearly as violent, but I believe he would still basically be Thog..

Except in DND, which is a fantasy universe, anyone with an intelligence of 3+ has the capacity to make moral decisions. That's why animals have intelligences of 2. Besides, Thog tends to go on boredom driven rampages. Meaning with Elan, he'd not do as much harm (the way Belkar does less harm with Roy at his leash), but Thog'd still be Darth Lenny. (Of Mice and Men reference).

Burner28

2011-04-22, 08:30 AM

MReav

2011-04-22, 10:47 AM

And no, insanity does not make you automatically Chaotic.

Miko is proof of this.

aart lover

2011-04-22, 10:51 AM

Thog might not intend to do evil, but he's still evil.

Squark

2011-04-22, 11:24 AM

Thog is intelligent enough to be evil. There's no question of this. He's can speak and respond intelligently (well, his replies make sense), which puts him above Chimpanzees, who are probably about as intelligent as you can get before you get to INT 3.

Thog is evil. Fact of the matter, is, D&D alignment is not a court of law. According to the way D&D alignment works, people who are textbook examples of Legal Insanity are still evil. Intent matters in D&D alignments (unlike in a court of law, which is why Celia's defense worked). People are defined by both their intent and their actions. Thog definately intends to do harm, and does harm, and has an intelligence score of 3, therefor he is evil.

To put it another way; Belkar is evil. I believe we can all except that (finally). Belkar had no more understanding of morality than Thog (He really, really didn't get the concept of good. Could fake it at times, yes. But it was still totally alien to him). So... yeah. Belkar and Thog are both Psychopaths. Loveable, Charming, and funny, yes. But psycopaths can be all of these things (a lot of them are, as I understand it). But they're still evil, because that's the way alignment works in D&D.

doodthedud

2011-04-22, 12:50 PM

Remember V did horrible acts and lots of people still considers V neutral.

Vaarsuvius is still and always has been dedicated to Roy's mission to stop Xykon because it is for the good of the world. V (until recently) is arrogant and showy, but still committed to being the hero. V lashed out to a bit of an extreme level, but only in an extreme circumstance (his entire family being threatened) while given an unnatural rush of power. V later regretted those actions and started striving to have better self-control because of it.

Thog does not plan ahead. He does whatever pleases him at that moment. That shows an extraordinary amount of selfishness. He clearly enjoys killing people, he laughs evilly when remembering his murder of the earth fairy, which he did without a second thought. His way to resolve boredom is a massacre.

V loves being showy, but is committed to saving the world for the god of everyone and even if it causes personal harm (he doesn't contest the divorce because he considers his mission against Xykon too important.

Thog loves being violent. He enjoys it, doesn't care who his victims are and remembers it with fondness. His only concerns are his personal enjoyment at that exact moment.

Thog and V are not even remotely comparable.

Flame of Anor

2011-04-22, 01:23 PM

Thog and V are not even remotely comparable.

Very true. To give an analogy for V, recall how the deva said "using Chaotic means to accomplish Lawful goals sounds pretty Neutral" or words to that effect? Well, V is--well, has been, s/he seems to have stopped--using Evil means to accomplish Good goals, which again works out to Neutral (though this time on the G/E scale rather than the L/C scale). Now, I think V is moving back towards straight Good, but s/he was definitely Neutral for a while though not Evil.

JonestheSpy

2011-04-22, 01:28 PM

Your argument seems to be that Thog isn't evil

Nope. "Can easily be reformed because of his lack of intellectual capacity" is not the same as "not evil".

hamishspence

2011-04-22, 01:30 PM

Well, V is--well, has been, s/he seems to have stopped--using Evil means to accomplish Good goals, which again works out to Neutral (though this time on the G/E scale rather than the L/C scale).

Don't think it works like that. If the means are sufficiently Evil, the character is in danger of gaining an Evil alignment even if their goals are good.

Flame of Anor

2011-04-22, 01:46 PM

Don't think it works like that. If the means are sufficiently Evil, the character is in danger of gaining an Evil alignment even if their goals are good.

Lawful Evil characters "care nothing for the rights and freedoms of other individuals".
Neutral Evil characters "have no qualms about turning on their allies".
Chaotic Evil characters "have no respect for rules, other people's lives, or anything but their own desires".

None of those comes close to describing V.

hamishspence

2011-04-22, 01:54 PM

Lawful Evil characters "care nothing for the rights and freedoms of other individuals".
Neutral Evil characters "have no qualms about turning on their allies".
Chaotic Evil characters "have no respect for rules, other people's lives, or anything but their own desires".

None of those comes close to describing V.

Those represent the more typical Evil character-

however- there's room for other Evil characters- ones who have become evil solely through "committing evil deeds regularly".

(That's pretty much how it works for PCs- commit enough acts the DM thinks are seriously evil- even if you only ever commit them against those you think deserve it- eventually, the DM changes your alignment to Evil).

That said- while V has done dubious things (like use Explosive Runes on people like the stablehand in the Bandit Forest without much justification) it's not really routine for V to do so.

golentan

2011-04-22, 02:08 PM

Lawful Evil characters "care nothing for the rights and freedoms of other individuals".
Neutral Evil characters "have no qualms about turning on their allies".
Chaotic Evil characters "have no respect for rules, other people's lives, or anything but their own desires".

None of those comes close to describing V.

Well, Neutral Evil I can think of V threatening to kill Elan if he got in V's way. Seems kind of close to "have no qualms about turning on their allies."

Chaotic Evil, Disintegrating Kubota because he (and the resulting rules going to be invoked by him) was inconvenient and narratively likely to be a bad guy without evidence seems to fit what you said.

Lawful Evil... None springs to mind right of the top of my head. Anyone have a reference?

Flame of Anor

2011-04-22, 02:09 PM

however- there's room for other Evil characters- ones who have become evil solely through "committing evil deeds regularly".

That sounds more like the Nicomachean Ethics than the Player's Handbook.

Mystic Muse

2011-04-22, 02:09 PM

Chaotic Evil, Disintegrating Kubota because he (and the resulting rules going to be invoked by him) was inconvenient and narratively likely to be a bad guy without evidence seems to fit what you said.

Familicide would also fall under this.

Flame of Anor

2011-04-22, 02:14 PM

Well, Neutral Evil I can think of V threatening to kill Elan if he got in V's way. Seems kind of close to "have no qualms about turning on their allies."

You don't seriously think V would have actually killed Elan? I mean, really. No way.

Chaotic Evil, Disintegrating Kubota because he (and the resulting rules going to be invoked by him) was inconvenient and narratively likely to be a bad guy without evidence seems to fit what you said.

Familicide would also fall under this.

Again, those actions were evil, but they do not make V evil for doing them.

Consider if you do something small and bad. For example, cheat on your taxes, get a soda at the buffet if you didn't pay for it, download music illegally. Those don't really make you an evil person, though if you do them a lot, it indicates that you're not a great person either.

Now, V did much worse things, but with a much better motive. It doesn't excuse him/her, but an isolated period--essentially the split-party arc--of having few qualms about using Evil actions for Good ends does not automatically make V Evil.

zimmerwald1915

2011-04-22, 02:19 PM

hamishspence

2011-04-22, 02:21 PM

That sounds more like the Nicomachean Ethics than the Player's Handbook.

More the DMG- the rules in the DMG suggest that the DM should track the behaviour of the character- and if they keep committing evil acts, change their alignment.

They also say that while alignment change should normally take time, one big act might be enough for instant alignment change.

Zevox

2011-04-22, 02:28 PM

Now, V did much worse things, but with a much better motive.
Since when did "torture the dead dragon" and "I don't want to go through a trial scene" becomes remotely better motives than you'd find for someone doing the lesser wrongs you described?

Zevox

Hawkfrost000

2011-04-22, 02:34 PM

lets look at this from a plot perspective.

Thog is the anti-Roy and Roy is Lawful Good, therefore Thog is probably Chaotic Evil.

Just like how Elan is most likely Chaotic Good and we know that Nale is Lawful Evil.

sorry if this has already been said

DM

Flame of Anor

2011-04-22, 02:34 PM

Since when did "torture the dead dragon" and "I don't want to go through a trial scene" becomes remotely better motives than you'd find for someone doing the lesser wrongs you described?

Zevox

Revenge on someone who tried to steal your children's souls, and not wasting time that could be used moving towards defeating the single greatest threat to the world, respectively, are much better reasons than "because I feel like it".

Mystic Muse

2011-04-22, 02:37 PM

Revenge on someone who tried to steal your children's souls, and not wasting time that could be used moving towards defeating the single greatest threat to the world, respectively, are much better reasons than "because I feel like it".

Revenge would have been simply killing the dragon. Even torture could fall under revenge. V killed every living creature that shares her bloodline, and any living creature that's related to those creatures. That is so far beyond disproportionate I'm not even sure what the word for it is.

lobablob

2011-04-22, 02:40 PM

Nope. "Can easily be reformed because of his lack of intellectual capacity" is not the same as "not evil".

Would that really be being reformed? Being temporally mislead into doing good things without any real choice being made? As far as he's concerned, he's doing exactly what he did before, he's doing what seems to suit his interests best and any lapse in his misunderstanding and he'll be back to doing what he did before. You wouldn't have reformed him, you've merely manipulated the situation so that the same criteria he used to decide upon actions before would produce results which give him the illusion of having been reformed, the minute you stopped enforcing it, he would be back to his old ways.

Zevox

2011-04-22, 02:41 PM

Revenge on someone who tried to steal your children's souls, and not wasting time that could be used moving towards defeating the single greatest threat to the world, respectively, are much better reasons than "because I feel like it".
No, they are not. Especially not the former. V protected her family successfully when she killed the Dragon. Familicide was nothing but pure torture and murder for the sake of torture and murder, some of the worst possible actions she could take for some of the worst possible reasons.

And with Kubota her motivation had nothing to do with wasting time, just the assumption that there would be a trial scene that she'd find tedious (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0596.html). Considering the situation, with the refugee boats wandering the ocean searching for some allies or a place to settle down, there was nothing but time for Kubota's trial as far as those who would be trying him - the Azurites - were concerned.

Zevox

Flame of Anor

2011-04-22, 02:55 PM

No, they are not. Especially not the former. V protected her family successfully when she killed the Dragon. Familicide was nothing but pure torture and murder for the sake of torture and murder, some of the worst possible actions she could take for some of the worst possible reasons.

No, the torture and murder was the action, not the reason.

hamishspence

2011-04-22, 03:00 PM

and the reason could be argued as

"for the pleasure that seeing the mother dragon's mental agony on realization will give"

The fiends' comment "after that stunt with the dragons, I think we have a 50/50 shot of ending up with V's soul anyway"

may mean "V's now done enough evil acts to earn an Evil Afterlife- and has a 50/50 shot at most, of achieving redemption before dying"

But getting back to Thog- even if all, or most, of Thog's murders and other such deeds, were "because Nale told him to" with very few evil acts on his own initiative- that doesn't really matter that much. "Just following orders" isn't really enough for a nonevil alignment IMO.

Lurkmoar

2011-04-22, 03:06 PM

Butt getting back to Thog- even if all, or most, of Thog's murders and other such deeds, were "because Nale told him to" with very few evil acts on his own initiative- that doesn't really matter that much. "Just following orders" isn't really enough for a nonevil alignment IMO.

You said butt, heh heh heh.

Actually, I think Thog is at his worst when he's alone. He gets bored easily, and seems to find amusement in swinging his axe around... into people's heads.

hamishspence

2011-04-22, 03:09 PM

Actually, I think Thog is at his worst when he's alone. He gets bored easily, and seems to find amusement in swinging his axe around... into people's heads.

That's a possible explanation- though I thought Nale had specifically given him, Hilgya, and Zz'dri, orders to kill the respective guardians. Since there doesn't seem to be much of a reason for Zz'dri to petrify Celia, unless it's on Nale's orders.

golentan

2011-04-22, 03:18 PM

That's a possible explanation- though I thought Nale had specifically given him, Hilgya, and Zz'dri, orders to kill the respective guardians. Since there doesn't seem to be much of a reason for Zz'dri to petrify Celia, unless it's on Nale's orders.

That was how I read it, yes.

Fish

2011-04-22, 04:41 PM

You can imagine any off-panel evidence you like, about Nale training Thog to obey, or giving instructions for him to obey later, or inventing a scene where Nale convinces Thog that certain puppy-kicking people must be killed and how Thog is deceived, but they don't carry any weight. (I can easily invent my own off-panel scenes about Thog rolling around in piles of corpses, laughing cruelly, and worshipping Tiamat.)

Your imagined evidence that Thog obeys Nale doesn't hold up to the on-panel evidence that Thog really doesn't obey Nale very well at all.

Harry Tuttle

2011-04-22, 04:42 PM

...What? Villainous Chaotic Neutral is Chaotic Evil, and heroic CN would be Chaotic Good. That's, like, their definitions- Chaotic, and a hero, or chaotic and a villain/bastard/what have you.

The words do have multiple definitions. Perhaps I should have used "antagonistic" rather than villainous and "protagonistic" rather than heroic so as to avoid the semantic confusion.

Then again, neither me nor my spell-checker are sure protagonistic is even a word.

Warren Dew

2011-04-22, 05:58 PM

The fiends' comment "after that stunt with the dragons, I think we have a 50/50 shot of ending up with V's soul anyway"

may mean "V's now done enough evil acts to earn an Evil Afterlife- and has a 50/50 shot at most, of achieving redemption before dying"
They may mean that, but it's more likely they mean, "Vaarsuvius is now committing evil acts at a sufficient pace that there's a 50/50 chance of changing alignment to evil before death", or even, "Vaarsuvius' acts are edging towards evil fast enough to give him a 50/50 shot of starting to commit clearly evil acts soon enough to become evil before death."

Remember the fiends don't think the splice affects alignment, so they really have no reason to believe that Vaarsuvius would suddenly change direction and start committing more good acts. If Vaarsuvius is already evil at that point, the fiends should estimate the chances of staying that way at substantially more than 50%.

Shale

2011-04-22, 06:05 PM

Not if they're considering the chance of an "oh my god, what have I done?" reaction.

Burner28

2011-04-22, 06:07 PM

But getting back to Thog- even if all, or most, of Thog's murders and other such deeds, were "because Nale told him to" with very few evil acts on his own initiative- that doesn't really matter that much. "Just following orders" isn't really enough for a nonevil alignment IMO.

I could not agree more with you. After all that is not an legitimate reason not to have a Non-Evil alignment. A person following orders to commit evil acts does not become Neutral just because they did not care about Good or Evil

Thanatosia

2011-04-22, 06:30 PM

Why is this thread now about V? It shouldn't be, but as long as it is, there's something that should be brought up. So far we've been shown examples of "doing evil and loving it" (Tarquin), "doing evil and proud of it" (Xykon), "doing evil for a sufficient reason" (Redcloak), and "doing evil because it's fun" (Thog). V shows us an example, currently our only one, of "doing evil and regretting it".
There is another example of "doing evil and regretting it" IMO, but it's in Start of Darkness, not the online strips.
Righteye. He was raised by his brother Redcloak and went down the same road as him for a long time, but unlike Redcloak, he matured, questioned his actions motivations and means, appearantly made some sort of peace with nearby humans and founded a settlement nearby human lands, and turned against the Dark One who he described as a 'petty spiteful god' who does not genuinely care about goblins. After the peaceful life he tried to build was destroyed by Xykon and most of his family killed, he tried to defeat the Lich, only to be stoped and killed by RC.

Ninja Dragon

2011-04-22, 06:48 PM

Gift Jeraff

2011-04-22, 07:56 PM

Since there doesn't seem to be much of a reason for Zz'dri to petrify Celia, unless it's on Nale's orders.
This is confirmed by DStP, since Nale is listed as having "tried to kill" Celia.

Squark

2011-04-23, 11:55 AM

Thog is following Orders is not an excuse. To use a military example, if your superior tells you to shoot a civilian because the civilian in question gave him a nasty look, you're not supposed to follow that order, and if you do, you're as guilty as he is.

I think. Could be wrong, though.

faustin

2011-04-23, 01:41 PM

No doubt about Thog´s alignment, but we should remember his kilonazis levels can be decreased under the right supervision (Elan, for example).

Burner28

2011-04-23, 02:34 PM

When he teamed up with Elan in their "wacky whirlwind adventure", they are described as being on "opposite ends of the alignment spectrum".

Somehow I doubt that was meant to imply that Thog is lawful.

IIRC barbarians cannot be lawful. In that case, That quote is another evidence against Thog being Neutral, besides all the people he killed knowingly.

Its not that he is childish or if he can make evil acts. No doubt the makes evil acts all the time. He is retarded and more than once seen as crazy. D&D has an alignment for crazy people...its chaotic neutral.

Actually there does exist the concept of insane Evil aligned people.The archetypical mad wizard/sorcerer/whatever that wants to cause havoc and destruction would fit this

He is in a evil group so his "friends" takes influence in him that causes him to do evil acts more often than good ones.

Peer prssure is not a legitimate reason not to be considered Evil aligned.Thog is still responsible for deliberately killing all those people. Furtherore the fact he referenced to killing people off panel in the latest strip no doubt eliminates any argument that Thog does not have the ability to make limited judgemen as if that was the case he would not use the phrase "did thog kil them off-panel"

We dont follow him enough to say he doesnt do good acts. Whether or not you can say Roy does kill innocent people off panel is not relevant to the evidence we do see of his conducts within the strips. As somebode greatly noted, there is a flaw in that logic- you can't actualy prove that there is any logical reasoning why we should even think that Thog does Good deeds by DnD rules if we are not shown any evidence within the strips to assume that kind of argument. Unless you can actually show evidence within the comic strips to argue Thog does loads of good deeds to cancel out the Evil deeds we see him doing, the argument that we do not know if Thog does not do Good off panel is pointless.

We only see Thog doing evil. Which by the way is a far more legitimate reason for anyone to cal Thog evil than there is for anyone to cal him Neutral.

Beowulf DW

2011-04-24, 05:41 PM

People here seem to have a problem liking evil characters.

Just because someone is evil, doesn't mean you gotta hate them.

Thog is funny and lovable, but he commits murders without any remorse. He is evil.

Tarquin is funny and badass, but he is a bloodthirsty dictator. He is evil.

Belkar is comedy gold. But he is a ruthless mass murderer. He is evil.

That's it. Maybe you have never seen it before, but it's possible to make evil characters likable.

Thank you.

V shows us an example, currently our only one, of "doing evil and regretting it".

This! This, right here! Redemption! Thank you, as well! V doesn't want to be evil. He/She is actively trying to be a better person, not just by doing some good acts, but by genuinely trying to change him/herself for the better.

Red XIV

2011-04-25, 12:32 AM

Except in DND, which is a fantasy universe, anyone with an intelligence of 3+ has the capacity to make moral decisions. That's why animals have intelligences of 2
How sure are we that Thog has an INT score of 3+?

I would tend to list his alignment as "True Stupid".

lets look at this from a plot perspective.

Thog is the anti-Roy and Roy is Lawful Good, therefore Thog is probably Chaotic Evil.

Just like how Elan is most likely Chaotic Good and we know that Nale is Lawful Evil.

sorry if this has already been said

DM
Except not all LG members have opposite alignments to their OOTS counterparts. Sabine is Chaotic Evil, after all, while Haley is Chaotic Good(ish). And V was probably True Neutral at the time, which has no "opposite", while Zz'dtri was clearly of some Evil alignment. And Yikyik had a very similar personality to Belkar, meaning he was probably Chaotic Evil.

zimmerwald1915

2011-04-25, 12:40 AM

How sure are we that Thog has an INT score of 3+?

I would tend to list his alignment as "True Stupid".
If he didn't have an INT greater than three, he wouldn't be able to speak.

Hawk7915

2011-04-25, 01:43 AM

While Thog is clearly not a genius (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196370)(:smallwink:), I don't think he's dumb as a post either. His apparent "child-like" intelligence is a product of almost certainly having penalties to all three mental ability scores...but too much lower than a 7 or 6 seems really pushing it, to be honest. And the argument he has a 2 or 3 (and thus is never culpable) is absurd. Why?

1) In the Oots-verse, all (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0558.html) orcs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0559.html) talk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html) like Thog does. While Orcs boast a penalty to intelligence, I think suggesting that all orcs have a 2 or 3 intelligence as a result to be unfortunate implications (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnfortunateImplications) at best. More likely it's a minor intelligence penalty combined with a lack of familiarity/skill with common (I'm sure the orcish tribesmen were quiet eloquent in Orcish :smallamused:)

2) Thog, for all of his madness and foolishness, is smart enough to recognize that Fighter level 3 is a trap. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html) He also recognizes that his racial abilities are not as competitive as others. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0255.html) Thog actually shows more metagaming skills than any of the heroes and indeed, any character we've seen in the comics thus far. Clearly, this isn't a prerequisite for intelligence (V is powerfully unoptimized but has the highest intelligence score of any character we've encountered thus far) but it is a sign of some sort of intelligence.

3) Thog is capable of carrying on witty banter (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0788.html) just as well as anyone. Some of it lapses into buffy-speak or simplistic language, but he's also intelligent enough to use good tactics and evasive loopholes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0396.html) and comes up with some pretty cruel and inventive methods of torture. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html).

Again, I'm not arguing Thog has a good intelligence score, but I think all of the above is solid evidence of an Intelligence between 6 and 9. Firmly in the range to understand the difference between right and wrong, and make judgments about what he is doing.