How much would this increase someones CR by?

[Sims]

Take a Level 10 Rogue for example. If he had the ability to cast Time Stop at Will as an Immediate Action.
I think that'd make him impossible to hit right?

[The Glyphstone]

Nope. He'd still need to win initiative, and all he can really do at that level is use his time stops to run away. You only get 1 immediate action/round, so if he's in a position to be attacked by anything when the time stop ends, they can hit him just fine.

[Runestar]

Take a Level 10 Rogue for example. If he had the ability to cast Time Stop at Will as an Immediate Action.
I think that'd make him impossible to hit right?

He gets only 1 immediate action each round. So he can only time-stop in response to 1 PC attacking him. A party focus-firing on him would still be able to wear him down quite easily.

Not to mention he cannot attack during time-stop, so he can only move or activate magic items. It may not really merit a cr increase, since he is not a caster, and thus unable to fully abuse this ability for all it is worth.

[faceroll]

I would put it at CR15. If played intelligently, that would be an extraordinarily annoying ability. As a level 10 rogue, he'll probably go first unless the party has mindsight/lifesense. This means he can reposition himself as often as he likes, buff to his heart's content, and lay down all sorts of nasty battlefield control stuff.

As an NPC, he has access to partially charged items, which means super efficient casting, typically superior to a caster of his level. I rarely have an NPC spellcaster go through all his spells in a combat, and he's using standard actions to cast most of them. Being able to get action free battlefield control as a rogue and lots of damage makes him quite difficult to defeat.

[Tvtyrant]

"We saw each other at the same time, our eyes meeting over the diamond sitting on the temple altar like a god on its throne. Both of them immediately disappeared from my vision, and the ground around me was strewn with caltrops that gleamed with venom."

[HalfDragonCube]

"We saw each other at the same time, our eyes meeting over the diamond sitting on the temple altar like a god on its throne. Both of them immediately disappeared from my vision, and the ground around me was strewn with caltrops that gleamed with venom."

"And then I saw I was looking down the point of ballista. On a timer."

[ericgrau]

Ya it's pretty much good for dodging one attack each round and chugging potions (like invisibility, cat's grace, etc.). It's a significant CR increase but not overwhelming. Let's see, at least +1 for the dodge (assuming a party of 4, it gets better with fewer foes, worse with more), +2 for the massive buff stacking. Maybe more b/c he can flee so easily, but +3 or more sounds about right. Maybe even more than that b/c of the increased NPC WBL at level 13+. Don't forget to give him lots of potions or UMD scrolls or then the ability really won't get much mileage. And don't forget to count expendables at 5x cost for balance or it'll get crazy.

[Tvtyrant]

Actually he could use it to load a an autocrossbow or two; then fires them both then on his next turn uses Time Stop, reloads and Hides then does it again.

[faceroll]

He can stay in time stop indefinitely. He can divert entire rivers, entomb the PCs in brick, summon entire fiendish hosts, dig 1000ft pits below the PCs, construct incredibly fiendish crushing wall traps; basically, he has the powers of a cartoon character.

[HalfDragonCube]

At will. As an immediate action. He could just spam the ability every round until he has days clocked up and ready to be expended doing whatever he likes.

Unless the characters kill him before he has even noticed them, the he wins, simple.

[Corrik]

Freeze time and then put a bag of devouring on your opponent's head.

[Urpriest]

Whether Time Stop could be chained like that is dependent on whether the extra rounds given by Time Stop grant more Immediate Actions. I don't think the rules are definite one way or another on that.

[faceroll]

Whether Time Stop could be chained like that is dependent on whether the extra rounds given by Time Stop grant more Immediate Actions. I don't think the rules are definite one way or another on that.

Why wouldn't it? If you're not sure if you get immediate actions, wouldn't you be unsure if you got move or standard actions?

[HalfDragonCube]

Bag of devouring, great idea!

Omanomanomanom. Faaccce.

Any other ideas? Personally I think that directing a river waterfall at whoever is nearby would be fun.

[ericgrau]

Actually he could use it to load a an autocrossbow or two; then fires them both then on his next turn uses Time Stop, reloads and Hides then does it again.
So do the feats rapid shot and rapid reload. That's not the most powerful use for a time stop.

Yeah technically he could cast time stop while in a time stop unless the DM says otherwise, but all he has to do to prevent that is say otherwise. Would be amusing to see comically huge and complex traps set up every round though, or to see his beard and/or hair grow between rounds, or maybe find food scraps collecting on the floor during the fight.

[HalfDragonCube]

So do the feats rapid shot and rapid reload. That's not the most powerful use for a time stop.

Yeah technically he could cast time stop while in a time stop unless the DM says otherwise, but all he has to do to prevent that is say otherwise. Would be amusing to see comically huge and complex traps set up every round though, or to see his beard and/or hair grow between rounds, or maybe find food scraps collecting on the floor during the fight.

Food scraps? Surely there would be some method of disposal of waste wherever they are fighting?

[Urpriest]

Why wouldn't it? If you're not sure if you get immediate actions, wouldn't you be unsure if you got move or standard actions?

Immediate Actions have an explicit 1/round limit. Move actions definitely don't have anything like that since two can be used in a perfectly normal round, and arguably standard actions are only limited by how turns work. I must admit after looking over the spell I can't see any reason why you wouldn't get additional Immediate Actions, but I have seen it argued before.

[Cog]

Immediate actions are exactly like swift actions except that you can use them in even more cases. Each round within the time stop would come with free actions, and therefore a swift action, so therefore an immediate action.

[ericgrau]

Food scraps? Surely there would be some method of disposal of waste wherever they are fighting?

Crumbs then, or other general lack of cleaning. I mean is he tidying up, sweeping, etc. near the end of the duration so he doesn't look bad in front of the PCs?

Or better yet the rubbish could build and build until round 3-4 and then it's absolutely spotless. If the PCs ask he says "spring cleaning, man I had to look at that mess for ages."

[Pigkappa]

Can't he just do this?

- Time Stop as soon as possible.
- Prepared action: when the Time Stop ends, attack an opponent.
- Time Stop again before any opponent can hit him.

[Siosilvar]

Can't he just do this?

- Time Stop as soon as possible.
- Prepared action: when the Time Stop ends, attack an opponent.
- Time Stop again before any opponent can hit him.

No.
Init 30: Immediate action Timestop!
-timestop actions-
Init 30: Timestop ends, attack opponent.
Init 29: No immediate action left to timestop with.

If you allow timestop stacking, then he could use the immediate actions he gets inside to stop time to get all the time he needs.

If you don't, he gets an average of 4.5 rounds per round, but only one attack sequence therein. So probably CR+2/LA+4 or thereabouts.

[Azernak0]

He can stay in time stop indefinitely. He can divert entire rivers, entomb the PCs in brick, summon entire fiendish hosts, dig 1000ft pits below the PCs, construct incredibly fiendish crushing wall traps; basically, he has the powers of a cartoon character.

That's pretty much the gist of it.

An encounter like that can only end a few different ways:

1. The party manages to kill him because the DM really messes up.

2. The party manages to kill him because the DM let them kill him.

3. The Rogue gets away after being a gigantic pain in the ass.

4. The Rogue takes a thousand years to build the Tomb of Horrors around the party, thus making the encounter a "Rocks fall, everyone dies" kind of thing.

All in all I would say the encounter is really impossible.

[TroubleBrewing]

All in all I would say the encounter is really impossible.

Nah. The party Psion performs the save game trick, then when they all die horribly, they go back and have the Wizard do the locate city bomb trick in the Rogue's area.

[Bakkan]

I think it's entirely realistic and consistent to say that you can't "stack" time stops just like you can't (or shouldn't) put a portable hole inside a bag of holding. The rogue could use his immediate actions in the time stop, he just couldn't cast another time stop, or haste, or similar "time magic" until the time stop ended. If that's the way things work, then I would agree that his CR should be +2 or +3. A difficult but probably winnable encounter for a party of level 10s.

[absolmorph]

No.
Init 30: Immediate action Timestop!
-timestop actions-
Init 30: Timestop ends, attack opponent.
Init 29: No immediate action left to timestop with.

If you allow timestop stacking, then he could use the immediate actions he gets inside to stop time to get all the time he needs.

If you don't, he gets an average of 4.5 rounds per round, but only one attack sequence therein. So probably CR+2/LA+4 or thereabouts.
Er... I think you're forgetting about the fact that he goes through an extra 1d4+1 rounds between using the time stop and the attack.
Including all his actions for those rounds.

[The Boz]

Basically, he would have Quick Draw, Quick Reload, Dimension Door... I can see a character who depends on positioning to be significantly powered up by that ability. +50% CR at the very least.

[TroubleBrewing]

So, a CR 10 encounter bumps to CR 15? :smallconfused:

I don't think so. +1 or +2, at most.

[The Boz]

Level 10 Cleric, Barbarian, Paladin and Wizard vs 1 Rogue.
Party sees Rogue a hundred feet away.
Barbarian and Paladin are charging at the seemingly harmless rogue minding his own business.
The Wizard suddenly explodes in a gory mess.
There is also a bottle of burning oil at the Cleric's feet, and the rag is lit.
The Rogue is running away from the Cleric.
Barbarian and Paladin turn around towards the Rogue again.
Paladin gets stabbed in the back for massive damage, and is limping.
Cleric tries to save himself from the burning agony.
Barbarian attacks the Rogue, cuts him good with a greataxe.
Rogue disappears.
Cleric puts himself out, and explodes in a gory mess just as he was trying to heal the Paladin.
etc.
Yeah, CR 15 for sure.

[TroubleBrewing]

Level 10 Cleric, Barbarian, Paladin and Wizard vs 1 Rogue.
Party sees Rogue a hundred feet away.

See, here's your first and second mistakes. The wizard doesn't do anything? No Power Word: Stun, no Hold Person, no Finger of Death? He just lets the two melee types close in? Also, if this IS a CR 15 encounter, then all of your players are level 15.



The Wizard suddenly explodes in a gory mess.


How? Does the Rogue Sneak Attack him? Because you can't actually attack in a Time Stop. Also, the Rogue is supposedly level 10, which means about 5d6 SA damage, and the Wizard has 15HD. I'm not seeing a gory mess, I'm seeing a cheesed-off Wizard.



There is also a bottle of burning oil at the Cleric's feet, and the rag is lit.


So alchemists fire deals 15d8 damage now?



Paladin gets stabbed in the back for massive damage, and is limping.


... Damage that, again, he can take because he has 15HD. d10's, to be exact.



Cleric tries to save himself from the burning agony.


... By taking a move action to put himself out, then a standard action to cast Antimagic Field. If this is an ECL 15 party, the Cleric has 8th level spells.



Barbarian attacks the Rogue, cuts him good with a greataxe.


Realistically killing him. If he's been charging the Rogue as you suggest, and he's ECL 15, he's got all three of the typical Ubercharger tricks, not to mention the WBL of a 15th level character. Rogue gets pulped, because he's only got 10d6 HD. The barbarian is dealing 60+ damage just from Power Attack.



Yeah, CR 15 for sure.

Not so much. It would be a challenging fight for an ECL 12 group, but they could pull it off. ECL 15 laughs their way through it.

[The Boz]

I was portraying a level 10 party, not a level 15 one. You can read that in the very first line of the post. So no Power Word: Stuns flying about to murder random redshirt rogues that might not be ones after all.
I dunno, automatically losing a partymember at level 10 with basically nothing to stop him is a bit antagonistic towards the players. That Rogue is a cruise missile, basically suicidal guaranteed murder.

[TroubleBrewing]

If you were suggesting a level 15 CR, use an appropriate level party. Remember, a level-appropriate encounter only uses up 25% of their resources.

[The Boz]

I wanted to prove how it would be too much for a level 10 party.

[TroubleBrewing]

Not debating that. But +50% to the CR? Silly. +2 is more likely.

[The Boz]

OK, so 50% might be a bit harsh, but such an ability is a power multiplier. It's not like an added fireball that just gives an attack option or something like that. It's free perfect positioning and perfect escape on a character built around exploiting careful positioning and ensuring escape. Percentile CR increase is the only way to go. Something between 33 and 50% might be a good number.

[TroubleBrewing]

I honestly don't think that you can apply an increase based on a percent. It's a fairly limited-scope ability, depending on how far your DM wants to go with it; if you're allowed to chain them together, then it makes you near invincible. If you get 1d4+1 rounds, it's not that impressive.

Sure, positioning. You get to be behind the Wizard when you don't deal enough damage to kill him. At the end of the day, positioning is not in and of itself a threat; you need an actual weapon to apply it to.

In this situation, with a 10th level Rogue, it's no more powerful than any other +2 CR adjustment. If you're really, really scared of the ability, bump it to +3. It's not worth +5. Not even close.

[faceroll]

I honestly don't think that you can apply an increase based on a percent. It's a fairly limited-scope ability, depending on how far your DM wants to go with it; if you're allowed to chain them together, then it makes you near invincible. If you get 1d4+1 rounds, it's not that impressive.

Sure, positioning. You get to be behind the Wizard when you don't deal enough damage to kill him. At the end of the day, positioning is not in and of itself a threat; you need an actual weapon to apply it to.

In this situation, with a 10th level Rogue, it's no more powerful than any other +2 CR adjustment. If you're really, really scared of the ability, bump it to +3. It's not worth +5. Not even close.

Build a party of 4, level 13, run it against my time stop at will as an immediate action rogue. I'm pretty sure you'll end up using more than 25% of your resources.

[The Boz]

I'm pretty sure you'll end up losing more than 25% of your party.

And that's exactly what I was trying to say.

[HalfDragonCube]

Surely unless the party slays or otherwise incapacitates the rogue before he has even had a turn, the rogue has won?

Immediate actions can be taken whenever the character is not flat-footed, so once the rogue has gotten his first turn, then he can spam his time stop and spend days creating effects that will kill the party as soon as the time stop ends. This thread has provided a number of ways this could be done, such as encasing them in stone.

Contingent save or dies and other such effects would be almost the only way to get at the rogue, and there would also have to be a contingent teleport or some other way of getting out of there ready on the party.

[Lhurgyof]

Couldn't he timestop indefinitely, though? I don't think there are rules which disallow it, and even if there are, can't he just hold an action to attack/time stop at the end of each time stop?

Anywho, marbles, traps, caltrops, poison, egh. Doesn't look too good for the PC's. :smallconfused:

[gdiddy]

How I would run this encounter.

"Ah yes, the proud adventurers. We'll see how you do against I, Issyl, master of the element of time!"

Round begins.

Issyl wins initiative!

Issyl Time Stops.

Issyl Time Stops in the Time Stop.

CHRONATAMOS, The Eternal Time Dragon eats him.

Time starts again.

"Wait. Who was that guy?

The party has no idea what happened and never will.