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Conners
2011-04-20, 10:05 AM
This question has nagged me for a while. Does a DBZ tabletop-style game exist? How the heck would it work, if there was one or someone made one...?

Perhaps someone here has considered the idea vaguely, or heard of a DBZ roleplaying game before? That'd be good, since my curiosity demands satisfaction.

Ravens_cry
2011-04-20, 10:47 AM
Session after session of charging up your power against the BBEG, and . . . it misses.

Conners
2011-04-20, 10:51 AM
XD I see you went for authenticity :smallbiggrin:.

Maybe there need to be optional rules for "filler" play where every action must take at least three minutes? Also, no fight can be ended in fewer than four episodes sessions.

Timeras
2011-04-20, 11:00 AM
heard of a DBZ roleplaying game before?

There is (http://www.jacketflap.com/bookdetail.asp?bookid=1891933000) a game. You don't want to play it, trust me.

Ravens_cry
2011-04-20, 11:02 AM
XD I see you went for authenticity :smallbiggrin:.

To be fair, the BBEG AC was pretty high. It's OVER NINE THOU-SAND! ! !


Maybe there need to be optional rules for "filler" play where every action must take at least three minutes? Also, no fight can be ended in fewer than four episodes sessions.
Heh, maybe, but from what I know of the show, Exalted would be the best mainstream system to capture the feel of Dragonball Z, if not the universe in itself.

Conners
2011-04-20, 11:11 AM
There is (http://www.jacketflap.com/bookdetail.asp?bookid=1891933000) a game. You don't want to play it, trust me. I think I've seen that on the web before, come to think of it. The description alone sounds pretty bad.... Any idea what kind of mechanics it fools around with?


To be fair, the BBEG AC was pretty high. It's OVER NINE THOU-SAND! ! !

Heh, maybe, but from what I know of the show, Exalted would be the best mainstream system to capture the feel of Dragonball Z, if not the universe in itself. I don't actually know much about how exalted plays, come to think of it--only that things are powerful and magicy and stuff.



When it comes down to it, I guess an important question about a DBZ system is, would you leverage Battle Power/Power Level as part of the mechanics...? If so, then you have some pretty big numbers to deal with in calculations o.o"...

Prime32
2011-04-20, 11:14 AM
High-PL Mutants & Masterminds maybe? The figures grow on an exponential scale as you add points to a power, and they have stats for things like charged attacks.

Eldan
2011-04-20, 11:18 AM
I don't know DBZ well, I must admit, but how about high point Mutants and Masterminds? It can do all kinds of powers to ridiculous levels (they scale exponentially), the stuff commonly seen in DBZ shouldn't be too much of a problem.

^ Screw you, Prime! :smallwink:

Conners
2011-04-20, 11:20 AM
Yeah, M&M with some restrictions (IE: limiting the abilities to DBZ-esque ones) could probably work. Has anyone tried it before, I wonder o.o"?

Even if you get a working system, though: What sort of campaign do you have?? At low levels, it could be similar to DnD, like that pirates' hideout Goku explored (in Dragon Ball). At high levels, are you dealing with wars, do games centre entirely around duels with the BBEG and his henchies, or do you have a dungeon filled with Greek-god-level minions?

Ecalsneerg
2011-04-20, 11:22 AM
Mutants and Masterminds actually has a Mecha & Manga book for 2e, which has guidelines for high-PL DBZ-esque games.

Pity 90% of its contents are the core rules reprinted in a slightly prettier, more confusing format. Core MnM can probably work just fine.

CarpeGuitarrem
2011-04-20, 11:23 AM
I'm not very familiar with DBZ, but Exalted sounds like it's just the ticket. Ridiculous power levels and duck-punching? Definitely.

valadil
2011-04-20, 11:28 AM
Instead of charisma you'd have the "hair height" primary attribute.

Timeras
2011-04-20, 11:36 AM
I think I've seen that on the web before, come to think of it. The description alone sounds pretty bad.... Any idea what kind of mechanics it fools around with?


The rules focus only on combat and as far as I remember most actions in combat depend on the same attribute and skill, so players will put everything in those.
To use energy attacks, you actually have to spend some time powering up.

Goober4473
2011-04-20, 11:46 AM
I feel like a modification of Scion or Exalted (I haven't played Exalted, but I hear it's the same basic system as Scion) would probably work. I'm running a Scion game now. Everything is extremely powerful and rediculous, and pretty soon everyone is going to be able to fly (the whole group has access to the Sky purview, the second ability of which is flight).

Just toss in some energy blasts, energy detection/supression, etc., and you're good.

ericgrau
2011-04-20, 12:27 PM
You start the game at level 10. Every time you nearly die in a fight, gain 4 levels. Several NPCs give you 4 levels if you spend downtime training with them. Or even training on your own in expectation of a major foe. Every time someone really ticks you off, temporarily gain 4 levels. Once you hit a certain level, gain 10 levels; temporary levels may be applied towards this requirement. Anything more than 4 levels above you is an overwhelming fight.

Focused Energy Attack (Feat)
You may spend a full round action charging up an energy attack that, as a standard action on the following round, hits and deals damage as if you were 4 levels higher. You may flavor it however you like, but it's basically the same regardless, at least a few episodes after it's first introduced. If you are disrupted while preparing the attack it is canceled. Note: if you are at least 4 levels higher than an opponent time flows much slower for you and this may become moot.

Volley (Flaw)
As a full round action you deal 3,000 attacks dealing 1d3 damage each. Almost everyone in the world has DR, yet no matter how many times you do this you can't believe what happens once the smoke clears.

Regeneration (Flaw)
As a full round action you may regrow a lost limb. There are no dismemberment rules in this game and you are the only one who ever loses limbs.

Polite Fighter (Flaw)
Whenever a foe charges up you must wait politely for several minutes, until he finishes so that you may fight him at full strength. You may not wear earplugs to drown out his shouting.

I only know these because I like the show :smallbiggrin:. I hear Dragonball Z Kai fixes the problems with excessive TV filler. If I ever go back to the show I may check it out.

Prime32
2011-04-20, 01:01 PM
Regeneration (Flaw)
As a full round action you may regrow a lost limb. There are no dismemberment rules in this game and you are the only one who ever loses limbs without dying.Clearly it should be combined with a Defensive Roll ability which destroys one of your limbs on a success.

...though then everyone would be Namek wizards who polymorph into hecatoncheires...

Conners
2011-04-20, 01:09 PM
Hey, that's actually a pretty good premise for a system you gave there, ericgrau (your name is hard to type)!

BP is hard to track, and calculating such large numbers would be stressful at a table, and if you're playing earthlings who don't have scouters it'll be lost on them anyway...

Thus, you have levels to show difference in power. Depending on how you crunch the numbers, 4 levels could be an overwhelming advantage, or 20 levels could be--that doesn't really matter, except as to how you space it out.
Either way, your level (or level advantage over your opponent) would be added to just about everything positive for you.

After that, you get some stats to make things more strategic and custom--Martial Arts, Strength, KI, whatever. These add directly to related checks.

Add in mechanics, crunch the numbers, and you have a system. ...I might write that system, just for the fun of it.

GeekGirl
2011-04-20, 01:23 PM
BESM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Eyes,_Small_Mouth), Its literally made for it. The game is designed with anime and manga in mind. Though I've never played, only read the books. I can't attest to the system, it does seem like fun and i want to try it

ericgrau
2011-04-20, 02:31 PM
Hey, that's actually a pretty good premise for a system you gave there, ericgrau (your name is hard to type)!

BP is hard to track, and calculating such large numbers would be stressful at a table, and if you're playing earthlings who don't have scouters it'll be lost on them anyway...

Thus, you have levels to show difference in power. Depending on how you crunch the numbers, 4 levels could be an overwhelming advantage, or 20 levels could be--that doesn't really matter, except as to how you space it out.
Either way, your level (or level advantage over your opponent) would be added to just about everything positive for you.

After that, you get some stats to make things more strategic and custom--Martial Arts, Strength, KI, whatever. These add directly to related checks.

Add in mechanics, crunch the numbers, and you have a system. ...I might write that system, just for the fun of it.

Ha what I said was a lark but your spin on it might work. If you want to give some foes scouters you could computer power level by some level based formula like double every X levels. Hmm... if you want level 1 commoners with much less power, people may have to start higher than level 10.

Goober4473
2011-04-20, 05:43 PM
BESM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Eyes,_Small_Mouth), Its literally made for it. The game is designed with anime and manga in mind. Though I've never played, only read the books. I can't attest to the system, it does seem like fun and i want to try it

In my experience (which is 2e BESM), BESM doesn't scale very well. It would probably model Dragonball, maybe very early Dragonball Z alright, but the system breaks down as you get more powerful.

wizuriel
2011-04-20, 08:13 PM
Anima beyond fantasy has a KI section which is pretty much all DBZ style fighting. You buy/build techniques and then spend some rounds powering up the abilities before unleashing them upon people.

Conners
2011-04-20, 09:35 PM
Anima sounds interesting for it. Anyone know of an attempted DBZ campaign with that system?



If I were to continue this idea for a DBZ system... it'd probably be opposed rolls largely, offence vs. defence etc.. You could probably use a d20 dice, in which case 20 levels over a character would be ridiculously powerful beyond belief (IE: you get a +20 to your roll only losing on a nat 1). Or you could have as much as a d100, for greater variance and more room for diversely levelled fights (a character 50 levels over you might still take a few rounds before decimating you).

Yeah, that sounds pretty good.

With the d20 version, you'd have it that every four(?) points you roll over your opponent, your attack/defence becomes a level better. IE: Base Damage: 40. 4 points over opponent: 45. 8 points: 50. Etc..


How would melee be handled, though? Would it just be like DnD, with repeated attack rolls? Be nice to throw in some kind of variance (IE: an attack which knocks your opponent away, etc.).

MightyPirate
2011-04-20, 10:05 PM
Mutants and Masterminds also comes with some pretty decent rules for knockback and it's very easy to use ridiculously massive objects as improvised weapons. The source book Ultimate Power is also pretty useful with rules on power contests (pushing the energy ball back and forth) and disabling your opponent's projectiles by punching them.

Conners
2011-04-20, 10:47 PM
Wow, that's even better than I thought, MightyPirate o.o! Question though: how easy would you say it is to play DBZ though M&M? Like, would you need to twist the rules, which makes it awkward/confusing/whatever to play?

Nintaku
2011-04-21, 04:35 AM
I've been spending almost my entire gaming career (about thirteen years now) trying to perfect a DBZ RPG using various systems, both commercial and homemade. I can offer my wisdom.

R. Talsorian's DBZ RPG
The R. Talsorian RPG is a terrible product, overall. I've done dozens of homebrew rules to try and fix it, and none of it has worked.

The system is Instant Fuzion. You have four stats and eight skills. Add Stat+Skill+3d6. Sounds good at low levels, right? Right. You also have Power Level, which is a pool of points you can spend to do cool stuff. Each point is effectively 1d6 worth of awesome, and you spend them in increments of 10. Starting to see a problem? Me too. Also, when a fight ends, you divide your PL by your opponent's, multiply by 10, and get that many experience points. Each point increases a skill by 1.

On average you should be getting 10 XP per battle. That's +10 to spread across your skills immediately. When your random factor is 3-18, that's bad very fast. Also I was the first in my group to come up with the brilliant idea of only ever raising my skills, never my Power Level, so I was constantly increasing the amount of XP I was getting by fighting "stronger" opponents, who were much less skilled.

The numbers don't scale and are basically awful. I recently tried to implement a simple solution: replace the 3d6 mechanic entirely by the D6 System's idea. Stat+Skill = d6 rolled. It scales things much better in the long run. But that's only one of the game's many problems. I've fixed Power Level by making it a function of Stats (which now increase as you gain XP automatically) and changed around the skills so they're less bad on their own.

I still can't figure out how to fix the spending of Power Level on energy attacks. As it stands, the best solution is to gather all your energy and fire the biggest ball of death you can, pumping it full of "not missing" power. Deal 300 d6 damage to someone with 200 health and tell me that isn't a win. On the other hand, if you have a proper DBZ battle, you whittle down your own energy until you can't pull off your cool super moves at the end. Bah. What I have needs testing before I can move on to the other problems, anyway.

Mutants & Masterminds
Ran this on RPoL, and my villain was one-shot killed in the first round of the first combat. While he was trying to talk the capitol city into surrendering to his boss. I really should have thought that one out better. My fault there. Don't stat up a character until they're ready to be horribly killed by PCs with weapons you didn't think were that deadly during chargen. Also, it's a really small list of powers that make a lot of sense for M&M. And I haven't seen the Mecha & Manga book's take on it, but I'm told it's "perfect". I am wary.

Wushu
It was my first experience with Wushu, and I was running the darn thing. Maybe now that I've gotten a better handle on how Traits are used to showcase a character's strengths and weaknesses rather than to limit what they're physically capable of, this should have another round of testing. It might actually work if it's intended to emulate the genre instead of simply as another combat system.

D20 Dragonball Z
Someone made a pdf of this using D&D 3.0 as a base. It hurts my eyes and my dignity. DBZ characters using base D&D classes, with Z-Fighter as a new base clss, and Oozaru, Super Saiyan, and Student of King Kai as prestige classes. Even the new races aren't very good. I had an attempt at writing D20 Dragonball going, but it was erased while I was out. I remember tidbits, and they might be usable, but I don't have the patience to work in D20 anymore, with lists of feats and such. Still, it could work if done very carefully and with love for the setting.

Ecalsneerg
2011-04-21, 06:03 AM
Mutants & Masterminds
Ran this on RPoL, and my villain was one-shot killed in the first round of the first combat. While he was trying to talk the capitol city into surrendering to his boss. I really should have thought that one out better. My fault there. Don't stat up a character until they're ready to be horribly killed by PCs with weapons you didn't think were that deadly during chargen. Also, it's a really small list of powers that make a lot of sense for M&M. And I haven't seen the Mecha & Manga book's take on it, but I'm told it's "perfect". I am wary.Why not just Fiat? It's a built-in game mechanic so you can fudge while giving the players something.

Nintaku
2011-04-21, 06:16 AM
Maybe I was also in the wrong group of players. No one in that group liked using Fiat to determine what was "fair". They wanted to use the numbers themselves for that, and I hadn't had a chance to properly test out numbers and ranges and things. My first plan was to just make the villain slightly more powerful than the PCs, and give him a bunch of minions (two saibamen per PC ought to do it, right?).

Like I said, the first round of combat had the villain killed instantly. That was the first action. The Damage roll was, I think, +34 over his Toughness Save if I recall correctly. The SECOND action of combat was from the next PC in the initiative order. He killed all of the saibamen (eight of them total) as his first action, and he'd worked it so he had another four actions after that.

Maybe if I'd had some more M&M under my belt at the time, I could have seen those numbers coming. This was PL 10, 150 point characters, so I didn't expect that kind of mass minion slaughter, or pretty much instant death for a character who should have had the advantage (PL 14).

Conners
2011-04-21, 06:50 AM
Yeah, that's the problem I suspected of M&M, it's built in a way where you can destroy the world with a low-level character by clever use of traits :-/.

Personally, I think you'd be better off working from scratch to make a system. Maybe my mind is just hardwired for this kind of thing, but I've never found it too frustrating. Toying around with some systematics myself, if you ever feel like exchanging ideas (you certainly have more experience than I do).

Ecalsneerg
2011-04-21, 07:11 AM
Yeah, that's the problem I suspected of M&M, it's built in a way where you can destroy the world with a low-level character by clever use of traits :-/.

Clever, no. Literate enough to read the sidebars explaining to the DM why allowing certain things is a bad idea, yes. MnM not only expects the DM to say no to players during char gen, it tells them what is likely to come up as an exploit.

Conners
2011-04-21, 07:19 AM
Oh, I see. Didn't remember anything to that light... maybe I wasn't reading the DM's book.

Tengu_temp
2011-04-21, 08:18 AM
When I was in middle school, my brother created a homebrew Dragonball RPG, and I played it with him. It was a blast at that time, but in retrospect the rules were pretty bad, with lots of balance issues and overly complex calculations (DMing it pretty much required an Excel spread sheet) - but hey, it wasn't too bad for something made by a middle schooler. We also played with other people over the net, and that game became rather popular, with over 100 players and 10+ DMs at its peak. It also popularized, and maybe even introduced, the concept of play by chat games to the Polish internet, a format that's still popular even today. So yeah, for a kid, not bad.

If I wanted to play Dragonball Z today, the first thing I'd do is hit my head with a plank several times. If I still wanted to do it, I'd go with Mutants and Masterminds. The Mecha and Manga supplement even has some feats and powers made specifically with such games in mind, and a lawyer-friendly version of Goku as a character archetype.

Conners
2011-04-21, 10:00 AM
If I wanted to play Dragonball Z today, the first thing I'd do is hit my head with a plank several times. If I still wanted to do it[...] Isn't that a bit condescending of you..?


Either way, it's impressive that your brother created a nation-wide internet phenomenon! :thumbsup: to him.

Tengu_temp
2011-04-21, 10:15 AM
Isn't that a bit condescending of you..?

Perhaps. DBZ has nostalgic value for me, but I recognize how bad it was. I have no desire to return to it. And those subjective qualities aside, power levels post what you get in, let's say Frieza's sage, make the game ridiculous and boring. Distance, terrain obstacles, puzzles - they become meaningless. All that matters are other fighters with power levels close to yours. That takes a lot of interesting things ouf of the game.

Conners
2011-04-21, 10:56 AM
Well, you could say DBZ is bad... though it'd come down to personal opinion alone. The series is quite popular, even to those who have watched it multiple times.
Of course, the Polish version might be the cause of your dislike. I'd suggest the JPN dub of Kai, since Kai cuts out a lot of the filler (which got exasperating in the Frieza saga).

I'm a bit confused with your point about the gameplay. You mean that power levels, if used past the point of the Frieza Saga's levels, are too ridiculous to use and cause the game to be boring with the amount of effort needed to use them? Generally, I wouldn't recommend using BP for a tabletop version of DBZ--those numbers are too big to calculate quickly.

As for only enemies of similar levels being what matters... that isn't unlike DnD, or any RPG, when you think about it o.o. True that if you don't mix things up somehow, things will get boring--that's where stone spit, suicide-bombing saibas, and other such encounters would come in.


Would be nice if you could properly do a campaign like the Frieza or Android saga, with the various factions, suppressing your power as you pursue key objectives, and trying to tip the balance of power. A skilled GM could make something highly enjoyable.

Friv
2011-04-21, 11:33 AM
I would chime in for Mutants & Masterminds, or possibly Scion (although I generally shy away from recommending Scion for anything because of how wonky the rules are).

Exalted, despite its high power, would be an absolutely horrible fit. The system is insanely lethal, relying entirely on avoiding blows completely until your blow lands, and fights last until exactly one second after someone runs out of power, neither of which really fits the DBZ aesthetic. Plus standing around charging your powers is an excellent way to get hit and killed instantly.

Conners
2011-04-21, 12:48 PM
Scion, yet another system I haven't heard of x.x".

Though, in a number of ways, I do wonder why people tend to make a DBZ system with M&M/Scion/whatever, rather than making one from scratch. It annoyed me with the Pokemon Tabletop fan game, because they made it too much like DnD (which it was based off) I felt.

Rule systems aren't easy to come up with, or it's easier with something one is already familiar with, maybe?

The Dark Fiddler
2011-04-21, 02:11 PM
I'm a bit confused with your point about the gameplay. You mean that power levels, if used past the point of the Frieza Saga's levels, are too ridiculous to use and cause the game to be boring with the amount of effort needed to use them? Generally, I wouldn't recommend using BP for a tabletop version of DBZ--those numbers are too big to calculate quickly.

If I understood him correctly, Tengu was saying that after the Frieza Saga in the show, the characters simply got so powerful that playing them in an RPG wouldn't be fun.

Conners
2011-04-21, 02:22 PM
It certainly would be hard to work, yes. Still seems like it could be good, for a Android-saga style campaign. May get old over time, though.

Kinsmarck
2011-04-21, 06:19 PM
I actually tried making this work for the 3.X format once. I used a derivative system based on the lovely brokenness that is Forgotten Realms' Spellfire rules. Layer atop some ToB wholesomeness, sprinkle a pinch of homebrew rulings, and voila, you've whipped up a mediocre stand-in for DBZ 3.5.

And it still makes more sense than GT!:smallbiggrin:

Tengu_temp
2011-04-21, 08:03 PM
Well, you could say DBZ is bad... though it'd come down to personal opinion alone. The series is quite popular, even to those who have watched it multiple times.
Of course, the Polish version might be the cause of your dislike. I'd suggest the JPN dub of Kai, since Kai cuts out a lot of the filler (which got exasperating in the Frieza saga).

The Polish TV version was indeed total crap. But apart from it I'm familiar with fan subs, and with the manga (which, on the other hand, was translated masterfully here). I used to be a big fan.
I still can name a buttload of manga/anime I like more, including a lot of stuff from the same genre. It might be a matter of opinion, but just like there are many people who share your view on this show, there are many who share mine.


If I understood him correctly, Tengu was saying that after the Frieza Saga in the show, the characters simply got so powerful that playing them in an RPG wouldn't be fun.

Exactly. They can teleport anywhere they want with a thought, routinely use attacks powerful enough to destroy a planet, and everyone who's not a warrior on a similar power level won't be able to harm them in any way even if they don't defend at all. That's too ridiculously powerful to be fun. Even Silver Age Superman is a better RPG character, because his silly powers at least have utility.

woodenbandman
2011-04-21, 08:20 PM
There is (http://www.jacketflap.com/bookdetail.asp?bookid=1891933000) a game. You don't want to play it, trust me.

MIKE FREAKIN' PONDSMITH???????????

THE CYBERPUNK 2020 MIKE PONDSMITH????

Conners
2011-04-21, 10:44 PM
And it still makes more sense than GT! Very true XD!



Exactly. They can teleport anywhere they want with a thought,

routinely use attacks powerful enough to destroy a planet, and everyone who's not a warrior on a similar power level won't be able to harm them in any way even if they don't defend at all. That's too ridiculously powerful to be fun.

Even Silver Age Superman is a better RPG character, because his silly powers at least have utility. Teleport anywhere? You mean Goku, right? He's the only one who could teleport anywhere (within limits). Either way, you don't need to give players Instant Transmission if it makes things boring.

Notably, if you can justify enemies of an absurdly large power, you can continue things as you did at lower levels... but, that generally isn't a wise idea. Using attacks strong enough to destroy planets seems fairly irrelevant if not used to destroy planets.

Don't know much about that superman.

Lord.Sorasen
2011-04-21, 11:34 PM
Teleport anywhere? You mean Goku, right? He's the only one who could teleport anywhere (within limits). Either way, you don't need to give players Instant Transmission if it makes things boring.

Notably, if you can justify enemies of an absurdly large power, you can continue things as you did at lower levels... but, that generally isn't a wise idea. Using attacks strong enough to destroy planets seems fairly irrelevant if not used to destroy planets.

Don't know much about that superman.

It doesn't quite scale like that, though. The characters fly so fast that it's like they teleport even if they don't. There's certainly no place on Earth they couldn't reach virtually instantly. The environment itself becomes entirely useless when characters are stronger than any material and can basically fly through anything.

For me, post Frieza saga (maybe even during Frieza saga) risks having everything be exactly the same. Watch Dragonball rather than dragonball z and you'll notice a much greater character variety. Tien grew extra arms, not everyone could fly, psychic powers existed, attacks did various things... By the Android saga every character was virtually the same. The androids flew around and blew things up with ki lazers. The Z-Fighters flew around and blew things up with ki lazers. Cell absorbed minor characters and the Androids until he got to full power... In which he proceded to blow things up with lazers.

Honestly, I see Dragonball far more fit to the tabletop RPG than DBZ. Specially since you wouldn't need to be a saiyan to have any influence at all.

I want to say d20 would work here, but honestly there are no classes in DB or DBZ. Everyone's either the same or incredibly different. You're probably better with a system that allows individual growth away from classes.

PS: I always thought Dragonball Z was a series I only liked for Nostalgia, and that it would basically be lame if I chose to watch it again. However, my younger sister watched it from beginning to end just last year, and while she hadn't watched it before and was already into anime and also 16 years old, she got really ultra into it anyway. I can't help but feel it's popular for a reason.

Conners
2011-04-22, 12:22 AM
On the other hand, they also fight so fast that a villain could kill their friends and escape before they get there (Mast Roshi is able to move faster than normal people can see, after all).
There are still some circumstances where the environment had restraining effects. They couldn't blow up Babadi's ship in case it woke up Buu, They need to take considerations against blow up the planet, etc..

Well, there are still things like Dabura's Stone Spit, and most any other creative technique one can fit into things. If the fighting system is done well, there should be enough tactical and enjoyable elements to keep even the same fight interesting.

You might be quite right with this. The way Tabletop RPGs tend to work, they often play at lower levels more frequently, and godly levels infrequently.

I highly dislike the idea of applying any game to a template system, to begin with.. Classes don't seem suited for DBZ, as you say--which is egg on Dragon Ball Online's face.


Dragon Ball, essentially, is the ultimate Shonen Fighting Anime created. It's formula has been copied an uncountable number of times. If one looks at the series closely, rather than finding plot holes, it's surprising how well thought out so much of it is... The fights, also, are wonderfully choreographed, both in plot progression and aesthetic.
That's my take on it.

Narren
2011-04-22, 02:01 AM
I wish I could remember my house rules for DBZ....they almost worked! :smalltongue:

I made it so experience only applied to power level, and your power level was applied to determine how effective your other stats were. I'll root around and see if I can find the rules...they're probably much more broken than I remember. It worked well for lower levels (100 - 999) and got a little funky in the thousands. After about 10,000, it stopped working properly.

I also applied DBZ to d20. I wasn't trying to emulate DBZ...we just applied aspects of it to a high-fantasy hybrid of d20 modern. We also used elements of Final Fantasy and a few other video games and anime to make a sort-of-kind-of wushu like modern world. With magic. And mechs. I think we had zombies, too. And oh yeah, cowboys. You kind of had to be there.

Tengu_temp
2011-04-22, 02:18 PM
Well, there are still things like Dabura's Stone Spit, and most any other creative technique one can fit into things. If the fighting system is done well, there should be enough tactical and enjoyable elements to keep even the same fight interesting.

It's true that a good DM can still make this interesting, but it's because a good DM can make everything interesting. A high-power level DBZ campaign requires almost constant barriers that make all the things which define late DBZ impossible.

I agree that normal Dragonball would make a much better campaign setting. It contains more flavour and variety.


Dragon Ball, essentially, is the ultimate Shonen Fighting Anime created.

Off the top of my head, several shonen fighting manga/anime I consider better:
One Piece
Mahou Sensei Negima (manga only)
Naruto (first ~50 episodes)
Bleach (first ~13 episodes)
Fist of the North Star
G Gundam
And only so few because it's not a genre that really interests me that much. So yeah, we disagree on this.

Conners
2011-04-22, 03:30 PM
It's true that a good DM can still make this interesting, but it's because a good DM can make everything interesting. A high-power level DBZ campaign requires almost constant barriers that make all the things which define late DBZ impossible.

I agree that normal Dragonball would make a much better campaign setting. It contains more flavour and variety.



Off the top of my head, several shonen fighting manga/anime I consider better:
One Piece
Mahou Sensei Negima (manga only)
Naruto (first ~50 episodes)
Bleach (first ~13 episodes)
Fist of the North Star
G Gundam
And only so few because it's not a genre that really interests me that much. So yeah, we disagree on this. Why are constant barriers needed....?


I guess you don't like the super-powerful-characters theme, then (as you mention only the first 50 episodes of Naruto and 13 of Bleach). Since DBZ starts with super characters, then goes on to make them what most people would call gods... it isn't really a genre to your tastes, as you said (DBZ is the embodiment of the genre).

Tengu_temp
2011-04-22, 03:35 PM
Why are constant barriers needed....?

Because being able to travel everywhere instantly/almost instantly and being able to destroy almost any obstacle (including planets) with no effort makes the game much less interesting. I know from experience.


I guess you don't like the super-powerful-characters theme, then (as you mention only the first 50 episodes of Naruto and 13 of Bleach).

I don't, but that's not the reason why I like all those shows more than DBZ, or why Bleach and Naruto get worse later.

Conners
2011-04-23, 02:12 AM
Well, as far as the series went, they did it quite well. Probably hard for me to predict the various problems rampant players could cause (though stuff like, "I blow up the Earth!!" could be refused by the GM).

Either way, personally, I'm more interested in the Saiyan-Saga levels. Guys with BPs of a few hundred, going up to a few thousand as they take on powerful aliens.

MeeposFire
2011-04-23, 04:46 AM
Part of the problem with DBZ was that up through the Freiza saga attacks got bigger and badder as expected. They got so big in fact that later stuff actually looked smaller (and often looked as or less powerful) than the earlier stuff despite being far more powerful. The show does not scale well. It got too big too fast.

Conners
2011-04-23, 05:48 AM
With DBZ physics, an explosion doesn't need to be larger to be more powerful. The characters actually need to constrain themselves--otherwise they will literally blow up the planet by accident (IE: Cell put lots of his power into a kamehameha, which Goku warned would blow up the Earth... even though Cell wasn't aiming at the ground).

MeeposFire
2011-04-23, 08:13 AM
With DBZ physics, an explosion doesn't need to be larger to be more powerful. The characters actually need to constrain themselves--otherwise they will literally blow up the planet by accident (IE: Cell put lots of his power into a kamehameha, which Goku warned would blow up the Earth... even though Cell wasn't aiming at the ground).

And yet characters get killed by energy blasts despite being more powerful than anything in the Freiza saga and the planet is not destroyed. Funny isn't it? If the power of the attack was constrained to the point that it would not make an explosion bigger than it did before that series then the power should be no danger to the now more powerful warriors. Hell Vegita could blow up the planet when he first went to Earth blowing it up must not take that much.

The Glyphstone
2011-04-23, 08:22 AM
With DBZ physics, an explosion doesn't need to be larger to be more powerful.


With DBZ physics,


DBZ
and

physics
Do not belong in the same sentence together.

Quietus
2011-04-23, 08:57 AM
And now I kind of half-want to play a D&D 3.5 game styled after DBZ where rule of cool > everything else, and fireballs leave craters. Huh.

... Thankfully, I know all too well that this would go nowhere fast.

MeeposFire
2011-04-23, 11:52 AM
Warlocks and DFAs would represent well outside of the amount of damage. Boost the damage to what makes it feel right and you have it fairly well done.

Nintaku
2011-04-23, 11:55 AM
I'm actually of the opinion now that a very carefully structured use of the Wushu system could handle it. Tried it once, but I wasn't very good with something like that at the time.

What you'd want to do is set up the Trait categories so they're based more heavily on character personality, relationships, motivations, goals, and personal flaws than on skill (since actual skill doesn't matter whatsoever), and the PCs themselves are ready to go.

Mechanical development would consist mostly of accomplishing personal goals and rewriting traits, while power advancement would be represented by the types of enemies getting to be obviously more powerful while being within the PCs' reach, just like in the show.

The neat thing is that when it's agreed that a villain is there to show off and be really tough, just set it up as a Mook Threat and remind the PCs that they're not going to beat him this time, and let them sell their defeat as they rack up successes through description. Then they can get back into battle with him after some adventure, prove they're ready to face the villain, and start pulling out their newfound skills to win.

This idea doesn't have the same type of satisfaction as using D20 and just having the system itself call wins and losses, but it does give the group more control over the Rule of Cool and the feel of the story.

Mr.Bookworm
2011-04-23, 12:49 PM
My personal guess is that a system that works on relative power levels would be the best sort of thing. If you have a five in Strength, at level one, this means you can lift a car, and at level 20, a five in Strength means you can shove the moon around. Mechanically, the score doesn't change, just what you can do with it. If their levels are different, the one with the higher level gets bonuses.

Like this:

You have Bob and Joe, each with a level one character. Both characters have identical traits, including the Glowy Doom Blast, Punching Stuff Really Hard, and Moving Really Fast skills. They fight it out.

When Bob misses with his Glowy Doom Blast, the GM tells him that it flies off behind Joe's shoulder and blows up a boulder, leaving a small crater. When Joe attempts to move behind Bob for a sneak attack using his Moving Really Fast skill, he flips over Bob's shoulder faster then the eye can see and punches him in the back.

Now level up Bob and Joe are level 20. This fight uses the exact same mechanics as the last fight, but when Bob misses with his GDB, it blows up a planet, and when Joe uses his MRF skill for a sneak attack, he teleports millions of times a second launching a blow for every strike.

Now if Bob is level 20, and Joe is level 1, they don't even roll, and Bob kills Joe instantly however he wants.

If Bob is level 20 and Joe is level 19, maybe Bob gets a +10 to damage with his GDB, and Joe takes a -5 penalty on his MRF-sneak attack.

That all make sense?

littlebottom
2011-04-23, 08:44 PM
Anima sounds interesting for it. Anyone know of an attempted DBZ campaign with that system?



If I were to continue this idea for a DBZ system... it'd probably be opposed rolls largely, offence vs. defence etc.. You could probably use a d20 dice, in which case 20 levels over a character would be ridiculously powerful beyond belief (IE: you get a +20 to your roll only losing on a nat 1). Or you could have as much as a d100, for greater variance and more room for diversely levelled fights (a character 50 levels over you might still take a few rounds before decimating you).

Yeah, that sounds pretty good.

With the d20 version, you'd have it that every four(?) points you roll over your opponent, your attack/defence becomes a level better. IE: Base Damage: 40. 4 points over opponent: 45. 8 points: 50. Etc..


How would melee be handled, though? Would it just be like DnD, with repeated attack rolls? Be nice to throw in some kind of variance (IE: an attack which knocks your opponent away, etc.).

I GM Anima, and i can tell you that with a few minor tweaks it could quite easily become a DBZ game, not perfect, but a lot better than most

you would have to do a few things like give everyone the ability of KI-flight so they could fly. you could speed up combat to make it so that a combat round is actually like a tenth of a second in line with the "stupidly fast combat" and it DOES include a "attack vs. defence" roll system with D100s, not to mention that if you successfully block, you are allowed an instant counter attack, making the back and forth more constant like in dragon ball (to a degree, since multiple attacks/blocks give you minuses)

there would have to be certain things that would be removed, or limited, for example only allow players to use a fighting class that can use KI abilities to a decent level.

you can also actually MAKE your KI abilities beyond the basics (fly and such) so you can have a "destructo disk" (i think?) and actually make it exactly the same as in DBZ, you could make your own moves for your character, you could make a "knock back" attack, or just a spirit bomb with lots of KI points that you have to accumulate over time then release them into one big exploding ball. only problem is, is that you would run out of points to use the KI abilities before too long, so you might have to quadruple their KI pools or something or let them start as higher level characters so that they can expand their pool with the points they gain as they level up.

basically when i read through anima i thought "oh my god. this is a roleplay game that with minor tweaks can become so many things, DBZ, Final Fantasy, most combat orientated anime"

the one thing that anima doesnt lend too well to at the moment is guns, although if your willing to sit there and stat up the guns, and confident enough to make them fair and not break them, it could lend well to that too. "check out my gun-fu!"

if you have some questions about anima, ill happily answer them

Conners
2011-04-24, 02:32 AM
And yet characters get killed by energy blasts despite being more powerful than anything in the Freiza saga and the planet is not destroyed. Funny isn't it? If the power of the attack was constrained to the point that it would not make an explosion bigger than it did before that series then the power should be no danger to the now more powerful warriors. Hell Vegita could blow up the planet when he first went to Earth blowing it up must not take that much. That's what the first sentence of my post was saying: "The explosion size of an energy attack is not always equal to its destructive power". As an example, a laser doesn't need to be bigger to be more powerful.



I'm actually of the opinion now that a very carefully structured use of the Wushu system could handle it. Tried it once, but I wasn't very good with something like that at the time.

What you'd want to do is set up the Trait categories so they're based more heavily on character personality, relationships, motivations, goals, and personal flaws than on skill (since actual skill doesn't matter whatsoever), and the PCs themselves are ready to go.

Mechanical development would consist mostly of accomplishing personal goals and rewriting traits, while power advancement would be represented by the types of enemies getting to be obviously more powerful while being within the PCs' reach, just like in the show.

The neat thing is that when it's agreed that a villain is there to show off and be really tough, just set it up as a Mook Threat and remind the PCs that they're not going to beat him this time, and let them sell their defeat as they rack up successes through description. Then they can get back into battle with him after some adventure, prove they're ready to face the villain, and start pulling out their newfound skills to win.

This idea doesn't have the same type of satisfaction as using D20 and just having the system itself call wins and losses, but it does give the group more control over the Rule of Cool and the feel of the story. There is a bit of skill-based stuff, in DBZ (generally, everyone is a super-martial-artist, but there were things like speed-differences, etc.). Of course, the idea of personality traits and goals seems very interesting--more importantly, that it might work in quite well (of course, playing having personalities built entirely around getting strong might result...).

What sort of combat system does Wushu have, BTW o.o?



My personal guess is that a system that works on relative power levels would be the best sort of thing. If you have a five in Strength, at level one, this means you can lift a car, and at level 20, a five in Strength means you can shove the moon around. Mechanically, the score doesn't change, just what you can do with it. If their levels are different, the one with the higher level gets bonuses.

Like this:

You have Bob and Joe, each with a level one character. Both characters have identical traits, including the Glowy Doom Blast, Punching Stuff Really Hard, and Moving Really Fast skills. They fight it out.

When Bob misses with his Glowy Doom Blast, the GM tells him that it flies off behind Joe's shoulder and blows up a boulder, leaving a small crater. When Joe attempts to move behind Bob for a sneak attack using his Moving Really Fast skill, he flips over Bob's shoulder faster then the eye can see and punches him in the back.

Now level up Bob and Joe are level 20. This fight uses the exact same mechanics as the last fight, but when Bob misses with his GDB, it blows up a planet, and when Joe uses his MRF skill for a sneak attack, he teleports millions of times a second launching a blow for every strike.

Now if Bob is level 20, and Joe is level 1, they don't even roll, and Bob kills Joe instantly however he wants.

If Bob is level 20 and Joe is level 19, maybe Bob gets a +10 to damage with his GDB, and Joe takes a -5 penalty on his MRF-sneak attack.

That all make sense? This is actually pretty similar to the idea I was tampering with earlier in the thread. I think it's about the best way to do the series outside of a computer calculating numbers. Just a question of the exact mechanics, and number crunch.



I GM Anima, and i can tell you that with a few minor tweaks it could quite easily become a DBZ game, not perfect, but a lot better than most

you would have to do a few things like give everyone the ability of KI-flight so they could fly. you could speed up combat to make it so that a combat round is actually like a tenth of a second in line with the "stupidly fast combat" and it DOES include a "attack vs. defence" roll system with D100s, not to mention that if you successfully block, you are allowed an instant counter attack, making the back and forth more constant like in dragon ball (to a degree, since multiple attacks/blocks give you minuses)

there would have to be certain things that would be removed, or limited, for example only allow players to use a fighting class that can use KI abilities to a decent level.

you can also actually MAKE your KI abilities beyond the basics (fly and such) so you can have a "destructo disk" (i think?) and actually make it exactly the same as in DBZ, you could make your own moves for your character, you could make a "knock back" attack, or just a spirit bomb with lots of KI points that you have to accumulate over time then release them into one big exploding ball. only problem is, is that you would run out of points to use the KI abilities before too long, so you might have to quadruple their KI pools or something or let them start as higher level characters so that they can expand their pool with the points they gain as they level up.

basically when i read through anima i thought "oh my god. this is a roleplay game that with minor tweaks can become so many things, DBZ, Final Fantasy, most combat orientated anime"

the one thing that anima doesnt lend too well to at the moment is guns, although if your willing to sit there and stat up the guns, and confident enough to make them fair and not break them, it could lend well to that too. "check out my gun-fu!"

if you have some questions about anima, ill happily answer them Wow, that does sound pretty good. Guess that editing Anima would be easier than creating a new system, too?

One thing I'm wondering about, is stuff like volley-blasts, dash-attacks, teleporting behind your opponent. How well would you say that stuff is managed?

Also, more for curiosity's sake... how would power levels work o.o (IE: Not having actual BP numbers necessarily, just as to how level/power is compared)?

Nintaku
2011-04-25, 02:36 AM
There is a bit of skill-based stuff, in DBZ (generally, everyone is a super-martial-artist, but there were things like speed-differences, etc.). Of course, the idea of personality traits and goals seems very interesting--more importantly, that it might work in quite well (of course, playing having personalities built entirely around getting strong might result...).

What sort of combat system does Wushu have, BTW o.o?

"Skill" in DBZ was mainly there to provide a bit of flavor, and became irrelevant by the time Raditz arrived. That was fast. All that mattered were special techniques, which were really just plot devices themselves. So when it comes down to it, the show became about Rule of Cool more than actual differences between character capabilities.

Unfortunately, the show also moved away from humanity, which was not Cool. Still, no saying an RPG has to do that. After all, it's your world emulating the feel, not the facts.

Before I can get into how to effectively use character personalities and drives mechanically, I should explain the mechanics to Wushu itself.

A brief rundown:
Wushu characters are composed of Traits, usually 5, 4, 3, and 1. Dice are rolled as a pool against one of your Traits. You compare the dice to the Trait rating, getting a success if it's equal or less. Follow so far? Alright.

To get dice, you describe what you do on your turn. This can be anything within reason, and isn't limited to a number of actions, doing well, or doing badly. And whatever you say is true. For every Detail you put in (including one-liners, special effects, lens flares, "camera angles", getting beaten up, and pretty much anything else) you get another die to roll, up to a GM-imposed Die Cap, which affects the whole conflict (so everyone's got the same Cap).

Conflicts have a number rating attached to them, and successes decrease that rating. Once a scene's rating hits 0, whoever got it gets to narrate how the scene's conflict is resolved. Players also have a sort of "narrative hit points", which requires successes assigned to keep it from decreasing. Run out, and you no longer get narrative say in what happens to you. No dice, either.

And there you have the basics. The idea is that it's a scene-resolution mechanic, not task-resolution. You don't roll to see if you hit, you roll to see how much that hit mattered overall. Higher rated traits get more successes and resolve the scene more efficiently, while lower rated traits get more attention and focus by resolving scenes slower, requiring more details.

I've started using an idea I saw on RPGnet about making the trait categories into Motivation/Goal, Skillset, Failing, and Weakness. Motivation/Goal should be what they're after; Skillset is what they know; Failing is a hindrance that keeps them from accomplishing their Motivation; Weakness is a proper personality flaw, and bringing it into play earns back a point of lost "narrative HP" at the risk of not being able to get a success to keep it anyway.

So!

They way to get around using "get more power!" as a direct Motivation in a game mechanics sense is to simply state that isn't appropriate. Why do you want to get stronger? Simply to be stronger? That would be an appropriate trait to put as a Failing, not as a Motivation. Do you want the Dragonballs so you can wish back your murdered mother? That's a Motivation, and it applies when you're actively getting closer obtaining to the Dragonballs. Otherwise you're just rolling your Kung Fu Demigod Skillset.

I actually like the idea of putting "to be the strongest in the universe!" as a Failing instead of a Motivation. The lowered rating means you'd be less effective, in terms of bringing scenes to resolution. That makes a lot of sense when you consider how powerful Vegeta was, but his drive to be the strongest for the sake of it always put him behind Goku, whose Motivation was to a) have fun and b) protect his loved ones.

And really, training scenes could be considered Conflicts with a time limit. "Get the conflict's rating to 0 within 5 rounds and you learn the secret technique. Fail, and you don't learn it in time." Then you'd just give the opportunity to use the Secret Technique during the epic battle.

This system does take out most of the tactical aspect, but pumps up the narrative aspects. And the use of Motivation lets the GM give each PC the opportunity to shine (rolling really well for going after their goals), while the Failing gives everyone opportunity to show off what makes their character closer to a real person.

There really aren't enough physical differences between DBZ characters to warrant proper rules for such things as attack/defense rolls, tactically spending energy on superspeed and multiple-dash-pinball-beatdowns and energy blasts, determining who is physically stronger but who is faster, etc. That's all lost as soon as someone has a higher power level, isn't it?

And then consider that during the fight against Vegeta, it was really down to Goku and Vegeta because they were physically powerful, but the narrative gave small fries like Yaijirobe and Krillin opportunities to turn the tide.

The system works pretty well at any power level, honestly. Even among Dragonball types, though those guys work well using more traditional RPG styles, too. It's fully possible to get tactical, even when Master Roshi started the series capable of destroying mountains and moving at seven times the speed of sound (each Mach he moved made another afterimage, you see).

Conners
2011-04-25, 04:12 AM
Part of the reason skill wasn't so apparent, was from the fact everyone was a master-martial-artist. The other problem was, that most fights came down to one person being massively stronger (which negates the usefulness of skill). One of the main examples of skill difference, is Trunks against Cell, where his power up was made useless by his terribly decreased speed.
While such a story can be enthralling, it mightn't be the best game premise... Could go more with, "You have BPs of about 1K, and are trying to oppose Frieza," perhaps. Lets you have some tough challenges like Raditz, Nappa, whatever--but for the most part you fight Frieza Soldiers with BPs ranging from 500ish to 1,400ish.

Either way, point is, if they had more evenly-matched fights (which might be a better idea for a tabletop game), I think skill would be more important.


The mechanics of Wushu certainly are interesting. Also, it wouldn't be too hard to work it for anything. Albeit, it seems better for emulating movies and fighting games--but that's fine for DBZ I'd guess.

What I'm wondering, is about the possibility of taking these character-development mechanics in some way, and combining them with a more direct combat system (IE: You roll to see how successful your attack is). These mechanics could apply directly to the gaining of power, perhaps (a bit like The Riddle of Steel), using them for working out your training bonus or suchlike (Example would be Gohan having a trait which lets him increase his power by a lot temporarily, when his friends are hurt)...? Mightn't work out so well as I imagine, but I would be interested to try it out.

littlebottom
2011-04-26, 08:08 PM
Wow, that does sound pretty good. Guess that editing Anima would be easier than creating a new system, too?

One thing I'm wondering about, is stuff like volley-blasts, dash-attacks, teleporting behind your opponent. How well would you say that stuff is managed?

Also, more for curiosity's sake... how would power levels work o.o (IE: Not having actual BP numbers necessarily, just as to how level/power is compared)?

volley blasts, by which i assume you mean "you throw a shedload of ki-blasts in one go" well you could create a Ki ability using the rules that does an area of damage, and/or explodes with multiple hits in one go, or perhaps just making it so it does more damage, or more likely to hit. depending on what properties you give the attack, depends on its cost to make and use. so as you level up you can create and use stronger abilities anyway by going "volly-blast version 3" and making it the same with even more damage, and make it hit an even bigger area. so for the most part, that sort of stuff is pretty well managed since you just give the ability the properties you want and then you just add colourful text, like so:

an ability that does a area attack and + damage could be: "a massive ball of energy hits the ground at high speed, exploding in a blinding blast, scorching the floor around it" or it could be:
"dozens of small balls of energy rain down over an area, they do little damage individually, but they are so numerous, that the targets take several hits bringing the damage to a respectably high level" even though mechanically speaking would be the same, high damage area attack.

teleporting is difficult to cover directly, there are spells that do it, but primarily under magic, not KI. But, giving them the spell and making it into a Ki cost instead of a mana cost wouldnt be too hard i imagine.

oh and once you hit higher levels of dexterity and such, your speed can become so high that you can get anywhere on the planet within 1 combat round (three seconds) so the higher dex levels are exactly where high end DBZ is at. its so quick it may as well be teleporting.

as for level/power, that depends on your class, and how you make your character, but overall a Ki based character will be getting progressively stronger by level, the biggest jump in strength though is in character creation, since you get a nicely large pot of points to start with, (600) then every time you level up you get an extra 100 points to play with.

if your looking for expinential growth, that happens, but only really through progression of stats, the difference between strength of 6 and a strength of 7 is much smaller than a difference between a strength of 10 and a strength of 11 for example. but every other level you can up one stat by 1.

the max you can (normally) start off with is 10. meaning you can hit 20 in one stat at level 20 if you put all the points into one stat that started at 10. at 20 though the stat basically becomes god-like. strength of 20 means you can basically pick anything up so long as you have something sturdy enough to stand on as you pick it up (IE you cant pick up the planet, although your strong enough to) a stat of 20 in dex makes you so fast as i said before, one combat round gets you where you want to be. a 20 in con means that you are near unkillable, any limb you lose regrows within a round or so, and your HP regen is mesured by the round.

but to restrict a character from doing that straight away, there are 2 thresholds as it were, one of "inhuman" and one of "zen".

inhuman allows you to take your stats above (i believe its) 14 and Zen allows you to take a given stat above (i think its 17) so until you have the ability to be inhuman or reach zen you cannot go above those limits, but if you want to, and put enough points in, its not hard to find ways around those limits via Ki or magic.

EDIT: quick word of warning, this system hurts your brain when you leave it as is, tweaking it for DBZ may make your head explode when one round may actually last 20 minutes of back and forth attacks :smallbiggrin:

EDIT EDIT: saying that, i just remembered theres a failsafe for that in the system, that defending multiple times gives additional minuses to your defence up to 5 defences in one round or more, same goes for attacks except the penalty keeps applying after 5 attacks, so eventually, your attack will be so much lower than their defence that it is likely not worth a retaliation since they virtaully garentee a block.