Project: New System

[zz78q5]

Hi there, its been a while since my last post but that is because I've been busy like hell.

What brings me here today is a mixed feeling of anger and weariness. I've been playtesting D&D 4ed for a while and even though it addresses some of the issues of previous Editions, it feels empty. I know, I know, the very books says "it is more action oriented" meaning "its more hack-n-slash" oriented, nevertheless I've managed to create quite a new campaing setting more "role-playing" oriented (meaning most of the races that normally attack on sight are more intelligent and willing to talk for instance). That took a lot of work and still, I cannot seem to find what I am looking for on ANY of the Role-playing systems (at least the ones I know, and I can humbly say, I know a LOT).

Therefore, I would like to put together a group of people with either the same feeling of emptiness towards the current rpg systems or willing to (and this might be even more important than the first thing) create a NEW system (OGL of course) that can fill the void some of us feel.

I already have a few things in mind, things that I would like the system to reflect, things that without I would otherwise not play the system. This is going to be a hard task but I think it is achievable.

Now, these are my thoughts about what the New System should be all about:

- Realism. Even though it can be immerse on a high-level fantasy setting (like D&D) I NEED it to be somehow realistic. I just don't like the idea of a character getting thousands of wounds on a single combat before dying. Of course, this realism is just for things "I" think that do not make sense; some might say "sure, magic makes perfect sense you moron" but what I mean is, take for instance systems like Vampire. A bullet well placed and you are dust. I always end up bringing this subject to reflect the realism because is where I feel it is more obvious. Another "unrealistic" thing I find hard to deal with is the lock-picking time-frames used in systems like D&D. "It takes a full round action to pick a lock". Yeah, right, a full round action mean 6 seconds of game time. Who-the-****-Houdini do you think you are? No way. Even the more acknowledged lock-pickers need more time than that. These are just a few examples.

- Dynamism. Another hard one. I've found that the complexity of the system tends to go up with the realism it tries to reflect. Take for instance Alpha Omega. IMHO, Alpha Omega is the system that have everything, except dynamism. There are so many tables for dice rolls and they are used in so many different ways that it is just not healthy to understand them all. Sure, you can resolve an action with such "realism" that other games may look like Alice in wonderland, that provided you find the dice-roll tables the same day you want your character to take that action. That is one of my big points towards D&D 4ed. Skill checks and Combat rolls are simpler than simple. So, how do you make that simpler? I want to use just one type of dice (I am thinking on the d10 dice since it provides enough range of action without needing a table, and it will be used in the same fashion the d20 is used in d20 system = d10 +/- modifiers Vs. difficulty)

- Customization. As you can see, all the things I am looking for are the things systems are remembered by. I want this system to be easily adapted from high-level fantasy medieval settings to low-to-none fantasy modern days settings, or high-level Sci-Fi fantasy settings (like star wars for instance). That is another point for D&D 4ed. All characters use the same level progression table, which can be adapted to other settings. It still fails on the combat/magic system but its a start point.


That said, this is what I've pulled together over the last few weeks. I've spent a lot of time going through these basic "rules", but still I think there are a lot of things that can be improved:

- Level vs Point-based progression. I am not yet decided if I want it to be level based (like D&D) or Point based (like Vampire). Both have their pros and cons but I am currently more inclined to the level based progression because it simplifies and justifies a lot of things.

- Combat vs Role playing. Ok, big point to touch. I want the combat to be combat oriented and the "non-combat" to be "non-combat" oriented. This may sound rather obvious, but if so, please read D&D 4ed PHB... it is ALL combat oriented. This has much to do with what the characters can do. For instance, I want the "warrior-like" classes to learn special abilities they can use outside combat, the same way I want "spellcasters" to do, and I want that abilities not to be "forced" because "they already have a lot of combat abilities, lets put something they can use outside combat so they dont say we are making this pnp-tabletop-roleplaying game look like a tabletop mmorpg" like D&D 4ed.

- Health levels vs Hit Points. I've kind of merged both systems here. It may look complex at the beginning, but its rather simple once you get used to it. The system is like this: Each character has a fixed number of Health Levels (pretty much like Vampire), weapons, spells, and other "damaging" effects cause "damage points". 1 to 4 damage points (dp from now on) are equal to 1 health level (or a Minor Wound). 5 to 8 dp are equal to 2 health levels (or a Moderate Wound). 9 to 12 dp are equal to 4 Health levels (or a Severe Wound) and 13 or more are equal to 10 Health levels (or a Critical Wound). I was thinking of Health Levels are equal to 5 + 1/2 Char Level + Constitution Modifier, so a tough character may start with as much as 10 Health levels while a squishy character may start with 5 (CON modifier only applies if positive). The 1/2 Char Level implies that during his adventuring life the character grows tougher. Still, the maximum Health levels will be around 20 (with Feats and Class Features) meaning 2 Critical wounds will chop down almost everyone, but he can take a ****load of Minor wounds before he bleeds to death.

- Skill training vs Skill points. This is another kind-of-good idea the crew that made D&D 4ed had. You are either trained or not in a particular skill. If you are, you get a nice bonus. If you aren't, then, well, lets say you will depend too much on your luck. The skill checks are also modified by 1/2 your level which in one hand is believable: you spend time with that funny skinny fellow and you may learn a thing or two about lock-picking. On the other hand, you don't get a better endurance by just looking that tough guy get beaten up on a daily basis so there's a weak point. Skill points are reasonable enough until the characters are either learning things that do not make sense (i.e. the barbarian of a party with no Mage nor arcane users whatsoever, out of nothing, puts 4 points in Knowledge Arcana.) or if the DM gets picky and "you can only assign skill points to those skills you "used" during the level" if the character is not eligible to rise any Skill what the hell do they do with the skill points. Maybe we can sort out some kind of merge like with Health levels and Hit points here.

- Source of Power. I liked the concept they used on D&D 4ed: warriors use a Martial source of power, while mages user an arcane source of power. I know this may look "contradictory" to my "anti-tabletop-mmorpg" concept, but I really think all character classes should have a "resource-pool" where they draw "energy" from to perform their stunts, spells, whatchamacallit; and I think these pools need to be represented as "points" (i.e. Mana Points, Stamina Points, Faith Points, younameit points). Why? It brings flexibility and eliminates duplicated classes (mage vs sorcerer; I know what you will say, but they are the same. Face it.) Depending on the class this pool may be bigger or smaller and have different rates of replenishment. For instance, Warriors Resource Pools may be small (3 maybe 5 points) but they are replenished after a few minutes of rest, while wizards may have an enormous pool (50++ points) but it is replenished a ta fixed rate per hour of meditation (i.e. 3 points per hour). In this way, given enough time, the Wizard will run out of "mystical" energy, while the warrior can still chop the hell out of his opponents provided he had some time to catch his breath. The only trouble I foresee with this system is with hybrid classes (such as Paladins) but that is something we can figure out in time.

- Defenses. Another good idea from 4ed and so many other systems. Lets take "Saving Throws" from D&D 3.5. The explanation was "the character tries to avoid the attack" (more or less) a 1 always fail, a 20 always succeed. I just never liked that, ever since 2ed AD&D. On the other hand, lets take 4ed system of defenses (which emulates may other systems, but for the sake of the example, lets use these). The character has his own "defenses" (i.e. reflexes, fortitude, will) and the attacker is the one that has to overcome that defense with the attack. Not only does this make more sense (to me) but it removes one dice roll from the equation.

- Races. This is arguable. It will depend on the campaign setting. Medieval Fantasy may have the classics: Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, etc. Modern campaign settings may only have Humans, or different types of Mutants (considering a modern world with mutants, like X-Men), futuristic settings may have alien races (Klingon for instance :P)

- Classes. Another campaign Setting dependent aspect of the game. Although there are some classes that fit almost every setting (warrior or soldier) some just don't make sense (wizard, cleric, druid, and most spell casters).

- Characteristics vs Attributes. I know the title of this paragraph doesn't make much sense, but for those of you that play Vampire, you know what the Attributes are, and for those of you who play D&D you know what the Characteristics are. What I point to with this is to either have a n-based (lets say 6?) Characteristics system, each of them having a value between 1 and one chillion, granting a cumulative +1 bonus every even number above 10, and a cumulative -1 penalty every odd number below 10 (like D&D 3.0 and newer) or... Having a n-based (9?) system, each attribute ranging from 1 to x (10?) each point either granting a +1, or another dice to a dice pool (see below regarding the dice pool). I am more inclined to the first system because it fits better the rest of the concepts and is more user-friendly (roll one dice, add and take, compare).

- One dice vs Dice Pool. I am actually stuck with this because none of the systems seem to address the "multiple actions" options in a consistent way. I like the dice pool concept, since you can measure the number of actions based on how many dice do you have on your pool (i.e., you have 3 dice, you can take 3 actions) but still I am not convinced on how would this work with the 10 +- Characteristics system described above (the one I am more inclined to use)

- Skill vs Talent/Techniques/Knowledge. I like the second the more. For those of you that do not know what the difference is: Skill system is like D&D you have a big list of skills, you either rise their level or not. Some you may use even if untrained, some you may not. This works fine, as a matter of fact, the lower the number of skills the more "freedom" the characters have when deciding what to do since almost everything is left for the DM to figure out. On the other hand, T/T/K system divides all the skills in 3 categories depending on their "learnability". You can always use Talents, at no penalties. if you have them trained you are just better at that. Techniques may be used without training, but you have a penalty (a really bad one). you can try to fix that microwave without knowing a **** about electronics, but do it under your own risk. Knowledge you cannot use if not trained. You either know something or not. The lower or higher level on these reflects how acknowledged you are on each.

Note: I know probably TTK is Talents Skills and Knowledge but not to create confusion, I reserved Skills for the list of skills like in D&D.

Well, I think this is pretty much it. I am sure there are a lot of things floating somewhere in my head but I cant remember right now.

If someone wants to join my quest for the "perfect" role playing system, welcome aboard.

[bryn0528]

Have you ever heard of 7th Sea? It uses a system called Roll & Keep that solves a few of the issues you have stated here (although, it also is a culprit of some of these as well, and not all of its solutions are as elegant as possible). I am fairly familiar with the system, and will try to give a few generalized examples here of some of it's solutions. Also, this will be an analysis of crunch only, as to not cause too much confusion.

First off, Roll & Keep is not class or level based like D&D, and uses a point buying system. Everything is arranged into sets of Ranks (ranging from 0 to 5, though sometimes 6 and, rarely, 7). There is a high level of customization as abilities (Knacks) are tied into thematic groups (Skills) that are purchased ad increased individually, rather than belonging to a certain set of class-like abilities. However, there are a few examples of a class/level like progression, but this is based off of a number of ranks within a very specific subset of Skills. Further examination would require more than a general knowledge of how the system functions.
Secondly, R&K functions using a single die; the d10. You mention wanting to reduce everything to a single type of die as such, although I believe you also are assuming that this is also a single die. However, in R&K, you rely on a pool of dice rather than a single die. The exact number is based on your Ranks in certain Traits (which function as D&D's ability scores) and Knacks. The exact formula for determining what you roll on a given action is: a number of dice equal to your Ranks in the appropriate Knack plus a number of dice equal to your Ranks in the associated Trait (which can change depending on the nature of the action). However, you do not add the total of all dice, but 'keep' a number of dice (usually the highest, though they need not necessarily be so) equal to your ranks in the associated Trait.
All bonuses and penalties incurred are based on flat modifiers of the Ranks of an associated skill (this is, however, more or less rarely used. There are only a handful of Knacks with this purpose). For the most part, most rolls are made without bonuses. R&K relies on something called 'Calling Raises.' This is essentially deciding to make your Target Number (TN; essentially the DC of a check) higher in order to get an added benefit, such as reducing the time it would take to perform an action or to increase the amount of damage you deal on an attack. 7th Sea is very non-combat friendly. There is no difference in the style of rolling between what it would take to compose an opera or to run 3 brutes through with a sword. Non-combat skills (Civil Skills) are bought along the same way as combat skills (Martial Skills).
You mention implementing a new system to represent health. What you've got mentioned is very similar to the R&K wound system. Essentially, when you get hit, you will take damage as Flesh Wounds. After taking these, you make a check against it, with the number of Flesh Wounds taken being the TN (Target Number; essentially the DC of the check). If you fail the check, the Flesh Wounds go away and you instead take a Dramatic Wound (or if you fail by enough, multiple DWs). If you pass you leave your FW but do not take a DW. When you take more damage, all FWs are accumulated into a new TN for your Wound Check. Failing means taking a DW (but getting all FWs erased).
At first, this seems confusing, and can be for those accustomed to having a total number of health points. However, once you grow used to the system, it is an easy implement. A further note, and relating it back to the non-combat friendly: taking a Dramatic Wound is supposed to be a really big deal. It's the equivalent of getting stabbed in the spleen and then wishing to resort to diplomacy.

This is no where near a complete and detailed analysis of the 7th Sea system. I just wanted to illustrate a few general points related to a few of your concerns. I am sorry if this isn't as concise or succinct as I hope it to be. Feel free to ask me to clarify anything that might be hazy, or to ask further questions about how the Roll & Keep system handles some issues.

[Knaight]

Point by point response:


- Dynamism. Another hard one. I've found that the complexity of the system tends to go up with the realism it tries to reflect.
If the system exists as a framework in which the GM can operate at a level of realism without explicitly noting every detail this is easier to achieve.


- Customization. As you can see, all the things I am looking for are the things systems are remembered by. I want this system to be easily adapted from high-level fantasy medieval settings to low-to-none fantasy modern days settings, or high-level Sci-Fi fantasy settings (like star wars for instance). That is another point for D&D 4ed. All characters use the same level progression table, which can be adapted to other settings. It still fails on the combat/magic system but its a start point.
Customization and level based systems tend not to cooperate well.


- Level vs Point-based progression. I am not yet decided if I want it to be level based (like D&D) or Point based (like Vampire). Both have their pros and cons but I am currently more inclined to the level based progression because it simplifies and justifies a lot of things.
There are a bunch of options besides Level and Point based systems. That said, a point based system is probably the simpler of the two.


- Combat vs Role playing. Ok, big point to touch. I want the combat to be combat oriented and the "non-combat" to be "non-combat" oriented. This may sound rather obvious, but if so, please read D&D 4ed PHB... it is ALL combat oriented. This has much to do with what the characters can do. For instance, I want the "warrior-like" classes to learn special abilities they can use outside combat, the same way I want "spellcasters" to do, and I want that abilities not to be "forced" because "they already have a lot of combat abilities, lets put something they can use outside combat so they dont say we are making this pnp-tabletop-roleplaying game look like a tabletop mmorpg" like D&D 4ed.
A relatively minimalist design without special abilities everywhere makes this easier.


- Health levels vs Hit Points. I've kind of merged both systems here. It may look complex at the beginning, but its rather simple once you get used to it. The system is like this: Each character has a fixed number of Health Levels (pretty much like Vampire), weapons, spells, and other "damaging" effects cause "damage points". 1 to 4 damage points (dp from now on) are equal to 1 health level (or a Minor Wound). 5 to 8 dp are equal to 2 health levels (or a Moderate Wound). 9 to 12 dp are equal to 4 Health levels (or a Severe Wound) and 13 or more are equal to 10 Health levels (or a Critical Wound). I was thinking of Health Levels are equal to 5 + 1/2 Char Level + Constitution Modifier, so a tough character may start with as much as 10 Health levels while a squishy character may start with 5 (CON modifier only applies if positive). The 1/2 Char Level implies that during his adventuring life the character grows tougher. Still, the maximum Health levels will be around 20 (with Feats and Class Features) meaning 2 Critical wounds will chop down almost everyone, but he can take a ****load of Minor wounds before he bleeds to death.
This is similar to (though far more complicated than) the Fudge wound track. While functional, I prefer a penalty based threshold system, in which wounds either take someone out of the fight, or injure them, and people who are already injured are easier to hurt.


- Skill training vs Skill points. This is another kind-of-good idea the crew that made D&D 4ed had. You are either trained or not in a particular skill. If you are, you get a nice bonus. If you aren't, then, well, lets say you will depend too much on your luck. The skill checks are also modified by 1/2 your level which in one hand is believable: you spend time with that funny skinny fellow and you may learn a thing or two about lock-picking. On the other hand, you don't get a better endurance by just looking that tough guy get beaten up on a daily basis so there's a weak point. Skill points are reasonable enough until the characters are either learning things that do not make sense (i.e. the barbarian of a party with no Mage nor arcane users whatsoever, out of nothing, puts 4 points in Knowledge Arcana.) or if the DM gets picky and "you can only assign skill points to those skills you "used" during the level" if the character is not eligible to rise any Skill what the hell do they do with the skill points. Maybe we can sort out some kind of merge like with Health levels and Hit points here.
The easiest thing to do here is just to have skills grow through use. Think Burning Wheel, though not necessarily to the same level of detail. The notion of gaining skills by virtue of being around the party is a nice one, and the specifics of that should be worked on.


- Source of Power. I liked the concept they used on D&D 4ed: warriors use a Martial source of power, while mages user an arcane source of power. I know this may look "contradictory" to my "anti-tabletop-mmorpg" concept, but I really think all character classes should have a "resource-pool" where they draw "energy" from to perform their stunts, spells, whatchamacallit; and I think these pools need to be represented as "points"
Assuming a robust combat system, special individualized stunts aren't really necessary, and something more akin to passive specializations which change the mechanics of a fight should be plenty.


The character has his own "defenses" (i.e. reflexes, fortitude, will) and the attacker is the one that has to overcome that defense with the attack. Not only does this make more sense (to me) but it removes one dice roll from the equation.
More rolls can be removed via a more simultaneous system. If two characters are fighting, have an opposed test for whatever combat relevant trait applies to what they are trying to do, and have the winner succeed.


- Races. This is arguable. It will depend on the campaign setting. Medieval Fantasy may have the classics: Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, etc. Modern campaign settings may only have Humans, or different types of Mutants (considering a modern world with mutants, like X-Men), futuristic settings may have alien races (Klingon for instance :P)
Having races pre built isn't really necessary, having the capacity to create them is important if much of fantasy or science fiction is to be covered.


- Classes. Another campaign Setting dependent aspect of the game. Although there are some classes that fit almost every setting (warrior or soldier) some just don't make sense (wizard, cleric, druid, and most spell casters).
Skills, however, tend to be largely universal, with only a few tied to the technology of an era. The trappings vary, but it shouldn't be difficult to have mostly generic skills, with setting specific plug ins.


- Characteristics vs Attributes. I know the title of this paragraph doesn't make much sense, but for those of you that play Vampire, you know what the Attributes are, and for those of you who play D&D you know what the Characteristics are. What I point to with this is to either have a n-based (lets say 6?) Characteristics system, each of them having a value between 1 and one chillion, granting a cumulative +1 bonus every even number above 10, and a cumulative -1 penalty every odd number below 10 (like D&D 3.0 and newer) or... Having a n-based (9?) system, each attribute ranging from 1 to x (10?) each point either granting a +1, or another dice to a dice pool (see below regarding the dice pool). I am more inclined to the first system because it fits better the rest of the concepts and is more user-friendly (roll one dice, add and take, compare).
You want this to fit with everything else, and using 10 as the baseline is pointless. A 0 centered roll and add system where there are no pseudo levels that don't do anything works fine, dice pools need to remain positive (though there are a bunch of other options).


- One dice vs Dice Pool. I am actually stuck with this because none of the systems seem to address the "multiple actions" options in a consistent way. I like the dice pool concept, since you can measure the number of actions based on how many dice do you have on your pool (i.e., you have 3 dice, you can take 3 actions) but still I am not convinced on how would this work with the 10 +- Characteristics system described above (the one I am more inclined to use)
Again, you want consistency. However, a multiple actions penalty that applies to all actions works fairly well.


On the other hand, T/T/K system divides all the skills in 3 categories depending on their "learnability". You can always use Talents, at no penalties. if you have them trained you are just better at that. Techniques may be used without training, but you have a penalty (a really bad one). you can try to fix that microwave without knowing a **** about electronics, but do it under your own risk. Knowledge you cannot use if not trained. You either know something or not. The lower or higher level on these reflects how acknowledged you are on each.
The T/T/K system is interesting, and could be worth looking into.

Basic system design.

Allow characters to be based around three types of traits.
Attributes (d4, d6, d8, d10, d12)
Skills (0-5)
Properties (Variable).

Task resolution would then be based around skills linked with attributes, where the number of dice is determined by the skill rank, and the die type is determined by the attribute rank. Successes are determined by the die type, with all results except for the bottom in the top half being counted as a success (4 on a d4, 5-6 on a d6, 6-8 on a d8, 7-10 on a d10, and 8-12 on a d12. Essentially, roll, subtract 1, if it is above 1/2 the die type there is a success.). The number of successes is then compared to a difficulty.

To maintain the Talents, Techniques, Knowledge divide, Knowledge skills default to 0, Techniques to 1, and Talents to 2.

Properties act as specifications to skills. Maybe they allow using skills in odd situations, maybe subbing in one attribute for another, so on and so forth.


All that said, unless you have something in mind that really warrants its own system, its probably easiest to start with a cohesive, generic, easily tweaked system. I personally recommend Fudge.

[zz78q5]

bryn0528, I am familiar with 7th Sea, not that I have played much though.

As you mention, it has a lot of similarities with what I attempt to achieve, but, again, as you mention, it has big "issues" when addressing some things (for instance, and this will take me to the next point: Wounds).

The Whole dice-rolling when receiving a wound can paralyze some games. I know I do not want the system to be focused on combat, but that is not a reason to make to so tedious no one will ever want to draw a sword.

As for the R&K system I am also familiar with it (well, I already said I am familiar with 7S, but I used R&K for a homemade system a friend of mine once tried and failed, but, back to the point) R&K addresses one part of the "single dice" themed system, but what I was hoping to make is as you say 1 single dice on each roll. i.e. a skill check would be 1d10+1/2 your level+skill modifiers+attribute modifier vs a Target Number (ie/ie: 1d10+0+3+3 vs TN 9)
The 1/2 your level is considering I stick with the Levels, although it may be 1d10+Attribute+Skill vs TN.

As for the weapons' damage (yea, i know, i am talking about combat again) I also want to remove the need of a collection of dice. What I was thinking of is something like all weapon does 1d10 + Attribute Modifier (i.e. Strength for Melee, Dexterity for Ranged) + weapon lethality modifier (+0 to +5) points of damage. That way, you have for instance a Dagger doing 1d10+0+Att and a Great Sword doing 1d10+5+Att (taken to modern settings: a knife 1d10+0+Att, a Shotgun 1d10+5+Att).


As for the Bonuses and penalties, I find more simple to use the +2/-2 of D&D (or +x/-x to be more generic) since it is faster to resolve.


Regarding the Character Classes system I really want to implement classes. Mostly because they are a good tool for the player to make up a concrete idea of what his character does. The classes not necessarily need to be as rigid as AD&D 2ed, nor I want them to be as flexible as PointPurchase systems, where at the end two characters can end up being the same even if their backgrounds are different. In that fashion, I like the concept of the "path" for a class. For instance, you start a as Warrior, and upon reaching certain mark on your career you can specialize into Gladiator, Knight, Duelist, etc. There can be even further specializations for instance for the Gladiator you can have the Twin Blade or the Lancer.
What I am SURE I don't want is Multiclassing or Crossclassing. IMO that is what killed systems like D&D. At the beginning when there were not many choices it even looked as a bad idea, but after a few books were out, it was almost mandatory to multiclass.

[zz78q5]

Knaight



Point by point response:



If the system exists as a framework in which the GM can operate at a level of realism without explicitly noting every detail this is easier to achieve.


This is not what I meant. The narrative realism is not the issue since it is more or less independent of the mechanics. The realism I am trying to address is for instance, but not limited to: Physics (wow, that sounds even bigger than I thought) - what happens when a character falls from a balcony over 10 meter above the ground? - sure, some systems say: xdn damage every z meters of falling. roll "thisskill" to treat the distance as "j" meters less, other systems say: grab a bunch o' dice, roll behind the screen and tell the character he broke his leg. The whole idea behind creating a realistic system is to provide with a framework, but a well defined one. Sure, you want just a framework? grab GURPS; that is not what I want.



Customization and level based systems tend not to cooperate well.


I don't necessarily mean "character" customization but adaptability to different campaign settings (i.e. medieval fantasy, modern terror, futuristic sci-fi).



There are a bunch of options besides Level and Point based systems. That said, a point based system is probably the simpler of the two.


Point Based system is what "I" like the most, still i consider level based to be simpler. On point based "you" are to make a choice (which is what I like the most of it but...) which involves complexity. On level based you are "given" prefixed benefits when leveling up. That said, an hybrid wouldn't be so bad.



A relatively minimalist design without special abilities everywhere makes this easier.


Special Abilities should be optional, but I really dislike the fact that on traditional systems, wizards have virtually thousands of possibilities while warrior-like don't. It encourages to play with spark-caster babbling-speaker squishy-arrogant characters just because they "seem" more fun. Sure, things may vary once you already are in game but "no special abilities" just don't cut it for me. Be aware though, when I say special abilities, it does not, by any means, mean supernatural abilities; warrior-like characters may have "stunts" of physical prowess beyond the regular townsfolk. Take for instance the (real life, current time) Free-Runners. They do things some of us can only dream about and even then, we may fall and break an arm. Those are the kind of "special abilities" I would like to see on warrior-like (well, more rogue like for the example but you get the point).



This is similar to (though far more complicated than) the Fudge wound track. While functional, I prefer a penalty based threshold system, in which wounds either take someone out of the fight, or injure them, and people who are already injured are easier to hurt.


Similar to, I agree. Far more complicated, I disagree. I would say "fairly" more complicated, still I think it is more realistic. The Health Level system can also allow penalties based on how wounded you are (considering how many Health levels you currently have).



The easiest thing to do here is just to have skills grow through use. Think Burning Wheel, though not necessarily to the same level of detail. The notion of gaining skills by virtue of being around the party is a nice one, and the specifics of that should be worked on.


I thought of that too, still it will encourage retrial to an insane level plus that does not work well with level based.



Assuming a robust combat system, special individualized stunts aren't really necessary, and something more akin to passive specializations which change the mechanics of a fight should be plenty.


What would be a "robust combat system" to you? I build the combat system around what I consider the more worked-upon combat system: D&D's. I mean, the last edition is piles of book on tabletop-strategic-turn-based-combat

What I intend to achieve here is a mixture between the Narrative of Vampire or Chtulhu and the dynamism of D&D. sure, you can Narrate as much as you want on D&D, but the mechanics of the game, or to put it in other words: the framework, is more action (combat) oriented rather than Narration oriented.



More rolls can be removed via a more simultaneous system. If two characters are fighting, have an opposed test for whatever combat relevant trait applies to what they are trying to do, and have the winner succeed.


That is actually adding a roll. Compare 1 player rolls 1 die against a target number, vs, 1 player rolls a die against 1 another player's die roll.



Having races pre built isn't really necessary, having the capacity to create them is important if much of fantasy or science fiction is to be covered.


Completely Agree. I just touched the subject as part of the "Customization" thing.




Skills, however, tend to be largely universal, with only a few tied to the technology of an era. The trappings vary, but it shouldn't be difficult to have mostly generic skills, with setting specific plug ins.


Again, Agree. However, I was just addressing the Classes point the same way I addressed the Races. The system must be such that character classes can be set up on any setting.



You want this to fit with everything else, and using 10 as the baseline is pointless. A 0 centered roll and add system where there are no pseudo levels that don't do anything works fine, dice pools need to remain positive (though there are a bunch of other options).


It is not pointless. 0 centered roll and add with one single dice type (d10 only) allows you to use the same dice for everything: weapon damage, skill checks, degree of success (you normally rate things 1 to 10 rather than 1 to 6 or 1 to 20), etc. Of course, using the 0 centered attribute system would not allow dice pools since negative modifiers cannot be represented with "minus-dice" unless you already have a basic dice pool, however, 0 centered works better with roll and add. On the other hand, the dice pool works better with the 1 to n attribute system. The point of this point (do'h) is to have you people expose what you consider pros and cons of each system and why would each be more suitable for the system.



Again, you want consistency. However, a multiple actions penalty that applies to all actions works fairly well.


Who said something about penalties? Anyhow, I was hoping someone would have an idea on how to address this. I can always say: hey, one action per turn. But I would really like to exlpore the possibility of multiple actions.



The T/T/K system is interesting, and could be worth looking into.


Indeed.



As for the Basic system design.



Allow characters to be based around three types of traits.
Attributes (d4, d6, d8, d10, d12)
Skills (0-5)
Properties (Variable).


Not what I am looking for. This is no single type of dice themed.



Task resolution would then be based around skills linked with attributes, where the number of dice is determined by the skill rank, and the die type is determined by the attribute rank. Successes are determined by the die type, with all results except for the bottom in the top half being counted as a success (4 on a d4, 5-6 on a d6, 6-8 on a d8, 7-10 on a d10, and 8-12 on a d12. Essentially, roll, subtract 1, if it is above 1/2 the die type there is a success.). The number of successes is then compared to a difficulty.


Interesting if using dice pool, however it has been probed that using dice pool systems the more skilled you are the more likely you are to fail (note: using traditional d10 dice pool system proposed by Withe Wolf where each natural 1 on a dice roll cancels a success). should I use dice pools it will be still roll and add. For instance, you have a dice pool of 4d, then you roll 4d10, add them up and that is your result.



To maintain the Talents, Techniques, Knowledge divide, Knowledge skills default to 0, Techniques to 1, and Talents to 2.


Not necessary.
Using dice pools you have no penalty when using Talents, -2 to dice pool when using Techniques (meaning some things you wont be able to do, for instance, bring a farmer to fix a computer) and Knowledge simply cant be used without training.
Using roll and add: -0 / -4 if untrained / cant use.



All that said, unless you have something in mind that really warrants its own system, its probably easiest to start with a cohesive, generic, easily tweaked system. I personally recommend Fudge.


I do have something in mind, it is just too long to write it here. I will try though to write it all down here so those willing to help have a better understanding of what do I want for the system.



I hope this helps.

[Mayhem]

D20 modern has personality-based classes rather than profession-based classes, so that might be a good start point for ideas, and you could look at the generic classes from unearthed arcana on the 3.5 SRD. You could follow the base class/advance class system it has too, it seems to fit. I think classes are good, they just make everything more simple. You'll need to somehow simplify them though, if you don't want any multiclassing, so players have some wriggle room to expand their character somewhere else.

I think level-based progression is simpler, and modify d&d's feat/skill sytem to fit your new one.

I like your health system. You could have a feat or something that, say, reduces bludgeoning damage by 1 level minimum minor wounds, makes a real beat stick that isn't simply a bag of HP).

Ever read all flesh must be eaten( unisystem, the other games would be similar)? The archetypes( basically classes) in their book dungeons and zombies just redistribute creation points around to the different areas( such as physical skills, magic skills etc), and after character creation all archetypes advance the same way( except for casters of course, who can buy magic-related stuff). There are also packages you can buy which are a set of pre-bought traits( and flaws sometimes), which are basically classes. The races are also expressed as package deals, it's easy enough to subtract them from the point system though and just give cheaper races bonus points to make up the loss.
Some archetypes have metaphysics skill lists, so you could follow a similar example and have combat skills.
Perhaps for combat, you're capped for the most expensive/highest level skill you can use and each round( or class ability) raises this cap. So say a novice fighter might be forced to open with a basic attack, but a couple rounds later he is able to perform a minor flurry. A baddass veteran on the other hand might be able to open with a shield charge and then go berzerk. Some abilities might lower your cap after use, and some advanced classes might have other ways of raising the cap such as maybe a berzerker has their cap raise by every wound he takes.

As for dice vs dicepool, how about an ability bonus gives you another die, and a malus takes one away? Has some transparency with D&D. I prefer one die myself though.
Ork RPG has attributes raise the die size, with skills providing the number of dice.
In AFMBE, a 10 on the d10 adds 5 and allows you to roll 1d6-1 and add to your total, and a 1 on the d10 does the opposite. A 6 on the d6 makes you roll the d6 again, and again adding or subtracting to your roll.

For weapon damage idea, see here (http://www.angelfire.com/games2/warpspawn/Primea.html). Tldr; there's a damage table and weapons modify the roll to increase the chance of higher damage.

I am definitely going to be following this. :smallsmile:

[zz78q5]

D20 modern has personality-based classes rather than profession-based classes, so that might be a good start point for ideas, and you could look at the generic classes from unearthed arcana on the 3.5 SRD. You could follow the base class/advance class system it has too, it seems to fit. I think classes are good, they just make everything more simple. You'll need to somehow simplify them though, if you don't want any multiclassing, so players have some wriggle room to expand their character somewhere else.


D20 Modern has a lot of a lot of things I dont like. I dont mean to insult anyone here but I felt insulted when playing d20 Modern. It just do not make up for a Modern Campaing Setting.(one of the many reasons I decided to come up with something new)


Perhaps for combat, you're capped for the most expensive/highest level skill you can use and each round( or class ability) raises this cap. So say a novice fighter might be forced to open with a basic attack, but a couple rounds later he is able to perform a minor flurry. A baddass veteran on the other hand might be able to open with a shield charge and then go berzerk. Some abilities might lower your cap after use, and some advanced classes might have other ways of raising the cap such as maybe a berzerker has their cap raise by every wound he takes.


I like this. Like the rookie warrior needs to "reach" a specific "state of mind" before meing able to pull up his fury, and for the Veteran Bad-ass it is easier to reach, but he can even reach further "levels" of "bad-ass-ness" to pull up even crazier **** out of the hat.



As for the rest there is one thing I will most likely dont change and it is single die type. no d4, no d6, no d8, no d"other-than-the-one-using"

[zz78q5]

Ok, I've spend the whole night putting together my ideas and this is what I came out with.

Its pretty simplified, more like a scketch of what I think the system should shape around.


d10 roll and Add
Character Points Based

Attributes

Strength
Constitution
Dexterity
Intelligence
Wisdom
Charisma

Attributes Scores and Modifiers
S M
1 -5
2-3 -4
4-5 -3
6-7 -2
8-9 -1
10-11 +0
12-13 +1
14-15 +2
16-17 +3
18-19 +4
20-21 +5
and so on...


SKILLS

Skills are grouped by type. Each Skill has a governing Attribute (noted between brackets - when there is more than one, the player chooses one as the governing attribute during the Character Creation). Skills can be rised either by group or individually. Rise a skill costs (2x current level)+1 Character points. Rise a skill group costs (3x current level)+3 Character points.

MOVEMENT
- Swim [Str] / [Con]
- Tumble [Dex]
- Jump [Str]
- Climb [Str] / [Dex]

THIEVERY*
- Pick Locks [Int] / [Dex]
- Enable/Disable Devices [Int] / [Dex]
- Sleight of Hand [Dex] / [Cha]
- Forgery [Dex] / [Int]

SENSES
- Spot [Wis]
- Empathy [Wis]
- Listen [Wis]
- Search [Wis]

STEALTH
- Balance [Dex]
- Hide [Dex]
- Move Silently [Dex]
- Escapology [Dex]

SOCIAL
- Streetwise [Cha]
- Diplomacy [Cha]
- Manipulate [Cha]
- Intimidate [Str] / [Cha]

SURVIVAL*
- Find Food [Int] / [Wis]
- Tracking [Int] / [Wis]
- First Aid [Int]
- Handle Animals [Cha]

CRAFTS*
- Mechanics [Int] / [Dex]
- Blacksmith [Str] / [Con]
- Alchemy [Int]
- Leatherworking [Dex]

KNOWLEDGE*
- Arcana [Int]
- Nature [Int]
- Linguistics [Int]
- Religion [Int]

MELEE WEAPONS PROFICIENCY*
- Unarmed Attack [Str]
- Light Weapons [Str]
- One-Handed Weapons [Str]
- Two-Handed Weapons [Str]

RANGED WEAPONS PROFICIENCY*
- Thrown Weapons [Dex] / [Str]
- Slings [Dex]
- Crossbows [Dex]
- Bows [Dex]

(*) Untrained use gets -4 penalty to Skill check.

Maximum Skill level 5, Maximum Skill Group level 5 (for a total of 10 on each skill + Attribute modifiers)


SKILL CHECKS

1d10 + Skill Score (modified by Attribute) +/- bonus/penalties vs Difficulty Number. If equal or higher than DN, success. If less than TN, fails.
See Combat for Attack rolls (Attack rolls are Skill Checks: Weapon Proficiency skill vs targets Evasion score).

Difficulty Levels:
2 - 5 = Easy
6 - 10 = Moderate
11 -15 = Hard
16 - 20 = Very Hard
21 - 25 = Near Impossible
26 ++ = Once in a lifetime

Natural 1 does not mean auto-fail
Natural 10 does not mean auto-success


Health Levels

7 + [Con]

Injuries Penalties
Current Injuries
Health Level Penalty
7+ 0
6 -1
5 -2
4 -3, Can’t run
3 -4, Half movement
2 -5, Single Action
1 -8, [Con] check DN 10 or lose 1 HL and fall unconscious
0 -- Unconscious


Injury penalties apply to every dice roll and to the characters Evasion score.


COMBAT
Initiative: 1d10 + [Dex] +/- Modifiers. The highest goes first. If tie, the lowest die goes first. If tie again, roll to untie.

Combat round
1 Minor Action: shout an order, draw a sword.
1 Move Action: move up to your character’s speed, ready a shield
1 Standard Action: Attack, use a special ability

A Standard action can be traded for a Move action. A Move action can be traded for a Minor action.

Combinations
Standard, Move, Minor / Move, Move, Minor / Move, Minor, Minor / Minor, Minor, Minor / Standard, Minor, Minor

Combat Statistics
Evasion: 5 + [Dodge]
Attack roll: 1d10 + [Weapon Proficency] vs Evasion of the target.
Damage roll: 1d10 + [Weapon Lethality] + [Governing Attribute]
Armor: instead of increasing the difficulty to hit, it reduces Damage Points (hence causing some attacks not to cause Wounds, and reducing the severity or certain attacks).
Shields: not figured out who to do this yet, but shields will not provide armor nor difficulty to hit, but will absorb a flat number of Damage Points if a “Block” is successful.
Special Defenses
Reflexes: 5 + [Dex] / [Int]
Fortitude: 5 + [Con] / [Str]
Will: 5 + [Wis] / [Cha]

Some effects may use these defenses instead of the Evasion score (i.e. Poison is an attack against the Fortitude defense).

Damage and Wounds
Weapons and some abilities (some spells for instance) deal damage points. Depending on the number of damage points, the effect will cause a Wound. Wounds are categorized as follows:
1 to 4 Damage points: Minor Wound
5 to 8 Damage points: Moderate Wound
10 to 14 Damage points: Severe Wound
15 or more Damage points: Critical Wound
Depending on the severity of the wound, the damaged character will lose a fixed amount of Health levels.
Minor Wound: 1 Health Level
Moderate Wound: 2 Health Levels
Severe Wound: 4 Health Levels
Critical Wound: 8 Health Levels

Dying and Death
If a character is reduce to 0 or less Health levels, he falls unconscious and is Dying. Every round thereafter, the Dying character must roll a [Con] check with a DN 10. If he succeeds on 2 consecutive rolls, he becomes Stable and heals 1 health level. He remains unconscious for 1d10 minutes. If he fails 3 rolls (not need to be consecutive), he dies.
While Dying, a character may receive medical attention to avoid Death. The DN for the First Aid check is 10, but the healer suffers a penalty equal to the Dying character Injuries Penalty. If a Dying character receives magical healing, he recovers the correspondent number of Health levels, but remains unconscious for 1d10 - the number of Health levels recovered this way minutes (i.e. a Dying character receives magical Healing for 3 Health levels, he becomes Stable, and rolls 1d10-3 to determine the number of minutes he will remain unconscious. He may regain consciousness immediately)


Healing:
Natural Healing: 1 Health level every day of full rest. - In game terms it means that normally, it will take at least a full week to recover from the beating of your life.
Medical Assistance: First Aid check, DN 7. The healer receives a penalty to the First Aid check equal to the Injury penalty of the wounded. If succeed, 1 additional Health level is healed after a full day of rest.
Magical means: some magic may heal a fixed amount of Health levels.


POWER SOURCES
Discipline
Allows the “fighter-like” characters to perform physical “stunts”. The pool starts “full” after an Extended Rest. Using stunts consumes Discipline points. Discipline point are replenished to full after a Short Rest.

Mana
Allows the “spellcaster-like” characters to cast magical spells. The pool starts “where it was” after an Extended Rest. Casting spells consumes
Mana points. Mana can be replenished by Meditation at a [Int] / [Cha] per hour of meditation ratio. The player chooses which attribute will govern over his Mana pool during Character Creation.

Luck
Allow the “rogue-like” characters to do a variety of things. The pool starts at 1d10 every day. Using abilities consumes Luck points. The only way to replenish Luck is the next day, when a new 1d10 is rolled.

Ki
Allows a special type of “fighter-like” characters to perform mystical stunts. The pool starts full after an Extended Rest. Using mystical stunts consumes Ki points. Ki points can only be replenished with an Extended Rest.

Rage
Allows “barbarian-like” characters to perform feral stunts. The pool is always empty. It rises up at a 1 per combat round ratio. Using feral stunts consumes Rage. The only way to rise the Rage pool is by being in combat.

Faith
Allows “cleric-like” character to perform “miracles”. The pool is “cleared” and starts full at certain time of the day (decided during character creation; may be Dawn, Dust, or Midnight for example). The character “prays” for 1 minute to “allocate” a miracle; must do so for each miracle but he does not need to do all the praying at the same time he can pray for a miracle “on-demand”. A miracle permanently occupies the correspondent number of Faith points, until the pool is cleared. The character can use the “miracle” several times during the day (depending on the miracle’s specifications). The only way to “clear” the pool is when the designated time of the day comes.

POWER POOL CAPS
Discipline: 3+[Str]
Rage: 1+[Con]
Luck: vary. Depends on the Luck roll of the day
Mana: 5+[Selected Attribute]
Faith: 2+[Car]
Ki: [Dex]+[Wis]



COMBAT vs NON-COMBAT
Combat is going to be Tactical. Meaning a board and (at least) tokens to mark every one's position will be necessary. There will be special “movement” rules for combat, like “Shifting” “Sliding” “Pushing” and “Pulling” in D&D 4ed. I am not sure about “Attacks of Opportunity” yet, since I never either liked it nor found it quite logical. Critical hits will be determined by the Wound level, not a dice-roll, i.e. you received a Critical Wound, that was a Critical hit.

Non-Combat situations on the other hand will not require “round by round” counting nor “distance measuring”. It will be left free for the GM and the Players to figure out if it makes sense and its fun. Non-Combat will be more “skill-use” oriented.

CHARACTER CREATION
Rather than picking a Class, each character will start with “x” Character points to buy his Attributes, Skills and Feats.
There will be one feat for each source of power, meaning a player may opt for not to buy that Feat at the beginning.

This is a preliminary table, though I think the numbers are solid:

The character receives 180 CP for Attributes, 40 CP for Skills, 20 CP for Feats and after that 10 CP for anything.
Attribute: +1 point = 6 CP
Skill: +1 point = 2 CP
Skill group: +1 point = 7 CP
Feat = 10 CP

Starting score and Caps:
Attribute: 6 / 18
Skills: 0 / 3
Skill Groups: 0 / 3
Feats: 0 / **

** all the character can afford.

Races may provide bonus CP for different areas, bonus Attribute Scores, Skill Scores, Feats, etc.

ADVANCEMENT
Once the character starts his adventurer life, he will receive CP as part of his rewards (note: I am using CP instead of Experience Points). The cost to rise Attributes, Skills and Feats are:

Attribute: +1 point = [current_score] CP
Skills: +1 point = ([current_score]x2)+1 CP
Skill Groups: +1 Point = ([current_score]x3)+3 CP
Feats = 15 CP


SPECIAL ABILITIES SYSTEM
The whole special abilities system is based on Feats. There are feats that do not require anything to be used, there are some passive benefits, and there are some that require that you fuel them with a particular source of power. All six sources of power have their respective Feat. Spells (for spell casters) are available in the form of Feats and the time and effort it requires for the spell caster to learn it is represented by the CP spent to acquire the Feat.
Most of the power source related feats have some other kind of prerequisite (such as an attribute score, or a special item [spell scroll for instance], or spend time practicing) that limits when the character can learn them.

I have also thought of “mastery levels” for instance, have Feats that are Apprentice Level, Advanced Level and Master Level. In order to buy a Feat of a given level you must have at least “n” feats of the immediate lower level, Except Apprentice Level.
This could also have Categorization, for instance General, Martial, Magic, Devotion, Feral, Ki, etc.
So in order for a character to get an Advanced Level Martial Feat, he must first have “n” Apprentice Level Martial Feats.
The only Exception to this rule are the Apprentice Level Feats, they can be acquired always without needing any Feat before (other prerequisites may still apply).

Some Examples:
General Apprentice
Charming Voice: +1 to Diplomacy and Manipulate checks.
Boar Fortitude: +1 to Fortitude
Keen Eye: +1 to Spot and Search checks
General Advanced
Hardiness: Resist damage 1 (Bludgeoning)
Die Hard: +2 to [Con] checks while Dying.
General Master
Skill Focus: +2 to a Single Skill skill checks.
Martial Apprentice
Power Attack: +1 to Damage for ever 2 Discipline points spent on this attack.
Weapon Finesse: use your [Dex] modifier instead of your [Str] modifier on attack rolls for a number of light weapons.
Discipline: Basic Trainig: Grants the Character with the Discipline Power Source. The Martial Power pool is equal to 3+[Str].
Martial Advanced
Flurry of blows: [3 Martial - Minor Action] Make an additional Attack.
Uncanny Dodge: [1 Martial - Immediate Interrupt] Gain +1 to Evasion to avoid 1 attack.
Martial Master
Whirlwind Attack: [5 Martial - Standard Action] Make an attack against each adjacent creature.
Magic Apprentice
Magic Basic Training: Grants the Character with the Mana Power Source. The Mana Power pool is equal to [Int] or [Cha] + 5. The character also learns 2 Cantrip Spell (see Cantrip Spells).
White Magic Initiate: The character know 3 1st Circle spells from the White Magic Spell List.
Red Magic Initiate: The character know 3 1st Circle spells from the Red Magic Spell List.
Magic Advanced
Red Magic 3rd Circle Magic: The character learns 1 3rd or lower Circle spell from the Red Magic Spell List and can learn more 3rd Circle Spells.
Mana Focus: Regain 1 additional Mana point per hour of meditation.
Magic Master
White Magic 5th Circle Spell - Astral Travel :The character learns the Astral Travel Spell


MAGIC
This is just a preliminary idea, but I was thinking on dividing the “spell levels” into 5 Circles. The access to each circle is represented by a Feat:
1st Circle: Apprentice Level
2nd and 3rd Circle: Advanced Level
4th and 5th Circle: Master Level

Also, the magic is divided into 6 “Colors” or Spheres - White, Blue, Black, Red, Green, and Void, you can figure out what does each color do.

As for “divine magic” I have not yet figured out how to make that work. What I am thinking of is a “Miracle” list for each God or something like that.

Also, there will be no “druids”. Green Magic Specialist will have the same “flavor” as the traditional D&D druid has, without the overpower-ness.



Thoughts, Critics, and stuff is appreciated.