A question about Incarnum

[Daverin]

Hey everyone. I have a question/comment on incarnum that I was wondering if anyone could answer.

Now, I like incarnum. A lot. Its flavor is simply incredible, and it seems like a very fascinating way to play a paladin type character. I especially like the connotations that the energy is essentially the stuff of life itself (I remember reading on some other post here that its been hinted that incarnum is equivalent to positive energy, which actually is my favorite element >.>). Plus, the way they go about it is fresh and unique, and an amazing blend between spellcasting, item crafting, and melee (or at least tanking.)

However, I have one hurdle that I have been trying to jump, but find too much difficulty in doing so. As it happens, I like tiers 1 and 2. I know its not exactly the best for gaming, but I try not to break anything, and I really like them more for what you can get than actually using it. For example, I probably would never use Gate as one of the tier 1 classes; but I also want to know my character could do that. In other words, I like how quadratic the power scaling is.

Now, obviously incarnum is not completely linear, with essentia investment increases and chakra binding. However, I still feel that it is not quite to my taste. However, I still have not completely memorized every soulmeld (especially from sources outside of MoI), and admit that I am not the best at seeing all the implications behind a mechanic.

So my question is, can anyone demonstrate that incarnum really does have incredible scaling? And, if not, what are some things that would be needed to make it scale more like, say, a wizard or cleric? And in that vein, what would be some ways to bring an incarnate to tier 2?

If nothing else, I may look into trying to make or look for incarnum homebrew, but I first want to make sure I'm not missing anything.

[Greenish]

There are the caster/meldshaper PrCs.

[RaginChangeling]

You can't really bring an Incarnate or Totemist to Tier 2 unless you make some new melds, simple as that. Their most powerful options mimic relatively low leveled spells, and take up item slot unless you also use a feat. You would have to write or revamp a good thirty+ melds to give things like Shapechange, Gate, Etc.

The biggest problem is that the Totemist is really a natural attack melee'r and the Incarnate is a Gishy type by design, none of their abilities are geared towards what makes Tier 1+2... Tier 1+2. They don't have the raw, reality warping power because by and large they're designed to fill a different paradigm.

[Tvtyrant]

You could always gestalt the Incarnum with a Binder to get a Tier 1.

[RaginChangeling]

You could always gestalt the Incarnum with a Binder to get a Tier 1.

Not really? Binder is a nice class, but it has a lot of overlap with Incarnum and doesn't add much beyond bigger numbers and situationally useful abilities. It wouldn't give it the raw power of a tier 1 or 2 though it would improve versatility.

[Daverin]

You can't really bring an Incarnate or Totemist to Tier 2 unless you make some new melds, simple as that. Their most powerful options mimic relatively low leveled spells, and take up item slot unless you also use a feat. You would have to write or revamp a good thirty+ melds to give things like Shapechange, Gate, Etc.

The biggest problem is that the Totemist is really a natural attack melee'r and the Incarnate is a Gishy type by design, none of their abilities are geared towards what makes Tier 1+2... Tier 1+2. They don't have the raw, reality warping power because by and large they're designed to fill a different paradigm.

I was kind of afraid of that one... I could try making an improved class, but 30+ melds is more than I want to put in just to make a concept work... although I wonder if I could find anyone on the boards who would be willing to work on a sort of unofficial incarnum supplement.

I could also look into the PRCs, but any of the theurges are not exactly what I'm looking for; the idea is for meldshaping itself to be worthy of tier 2 and up. Just having "soul magic" isn't quite what I have in mind. Plus, I actually like the gishiness of incarnum...

[Urpriest]

Tier 1 and 2 are what they are because they have vast lists of versatile stuff to draw from. This unfortunately makes it rather difficult to homebrew an entire Tier 1/2 ruleset, to the extent that the only splatbook Tier 1/2 classes draw on the abilities of preexisting Tier 1/2 classes.

As such, you should try something like that. For example, giving the Totemist Wild Shape as a Planar Shepherd could probably bring it all the way up to Tier 1 in the right level range. Binders are thought to go to Tier 2 with the Summon Monster vestige, an analogous meld wouldn't be that tricky to homebrew.

[Daverin]

Looks like the consensus is more melds then... I probably could do that, I just don't know how many I'd want to do.

That said, to address the other part of my question, I wonder if there is a way I could make soulmelds that take higher level access to the meldshaper to also reflect their becoming more powerful wielders of essentia? I remember seeing an idea of having soulmelds take multiple chakras, maybe I could expand upon that...

[RaginChangeling]

Looks like the consensus is more melds then... I probably could do that, I just don't know how many I'd want to do.

That said, to address the other part of my question, I wonder if there is a way I could make soulmelds that take higher level access to the meldshaper to also reflect their becoming more powerful wielders of essentia? I remember seeing an idea of having soulmelds take multiple chakras, maybe I could expand upon that...

Or just require the heart or soul Chakra for the good effects? Those already open up late enough on the Incarnate, and don't open up before the Totemist hits epic.

[Daverin]

Or just require the heart or soul Chakra for the good effects? Those already open up late enough on the Incarnate, and don't open up before the Totemist hits epic.

Oh, I know that. I probably am just not giving enough credit to the idea of high level chakra binds (maybe more because of the effects given by what melds do exist than the concept itself...)

[Veyr]

I don't think taking multiple Chakras is really a great effect, personally. Just use the higher-level Chakras; that's what they're intended for.

You could have Soulmelds give small amounts of spellcasting, perhaps, if you wanted. Something like "when you bind this Soulmeld to the Waist Chakra, you may prepare three 5th level, three 6th level, and two 7th level spells from the Cleric spell list" or something?

[Person_Man]

Tricks which bump up the power of Incarnum:

1) Know your soulmelds: At first level an Incarnate can get DR 4/magic and 2d6 retributive fire damage. At level 2 he gets an infinitely replaceable Necrocarnate Zombie to act as a tackle dummy and/or guy who sets off traps. At level 3 he can get a +8ish bonus to a variety of Skills, including UMD, Spot, and Sleight of Hands (which only requires a DC of 20 to auto-steal any item, including spell component pouches, quivers, holy symbols, and similarly critical objects during combat). At each ECL their tends to be one or two gems to be exploited. You just have to be willing to change tactics as you gain levels.

2) Know your enemy: You can pretty much change your entire build every morning without buying a spellbook the size of an encyclopedia. So if you bother to pay attention to your DM and change your tactics accordingly, you have a huge advantage over other builds (with the notable exception of divine casters and a few other classes, who share this perk).

3) The Share Soulmeld feat allows your Familiar or Animal Companion to benefit from the effects of your soulmelds as long as it's within 5 ft. This basically doubles the effectiveness of most soulmelds. Sometimes your DM will be nice and will let your Soulspark Familiar count for this feat. Others will have to take at least one level of an arcane class (and may wish to enter the Soulcaster PrC). Combine this with your ability to Share Spells with your Familiar (like Alter Self and Polymorph) and you're clearly in Tier 2 territory.

4) The Necrocarnate PrC can get an absurd amount of essentia via it's signature class ability, which gives up normal essentia progression in exchange for gaining essentia from recently dead creatures for 24 hours. If played in a cheesy fashion, you can pour boiling water on an ant hill or take the Chicken Infested flaw or just buy a bunch of cheap farm animals and kill them. But even when played "honestly" you just need to use soulmelds that don't rely on essentia for the first few combats each day, and then you become dramatically stronger as the dungeon crawl progresses (which is the opposite of virtually every other class). The Heart of Incarnum feat also gives you bonus hit points equal to your essentia pool, which again tends to be quite high towards the end of the game day. And unlike every other PrC, the Necrocarnate progresses both Totemist and Incarnate meldshaper levels (and allows you to choose which side you gain soulmelds from), which makes a Sorcerer 1/Totemist 2/Incarnate 4/Necrocarnate 13 a very potent build, capable of using every soulmeld and chakra bind, with maximum essentia, at double strength (with the above Share Soulmelds trick).

5) Spells and Psionic Powers. The spell section in MoI is brief, but it includes several ways to bump up your essentia or chakra binds. This can be exploited by any full caster/manifester who wants to dabble in soulmelds via feats, or by using the Soul Caster or Soul Manifester PrC.

6) Dragon Magazine #350: Brood Keeper's Heart bound to your Heart chakra gives you a poorly defined Swarm template, which is very potent. Chaos Roc's Span bound to your Shoulder's gives you 2 Wing Buffet attacks (which is fairly rare as natural attacks go) and a helpful Save or Daze effect.

There's more, but you get the point.

[Daverin]

I don't think taking multiple Chakras is really a great effect, personally. Just use the higher-level Chakras; that's what they're intended for.

You could have Soulmelds give small amounts of spellcasting, perhaps, if you wanted. Something like "when you bind this Soulmeld to the Waist Chakra, you may prepare three 5th level, three 6th level, and two 7th level spells from the Cleric spell list" or something?

Now there is a thought. I need to think up details for that.


3) The Share Soulmeld feat allows your Familiar or Animal Companion to benefit from the effects of your soulmelds as long as it's within 5 ft. This basically doubles the effectiveness of most soulmelds. Sometimes your DM will be nice and will let your Soulspark Familiar count for this feat. Others will have to take at least one level of an arcane class (and may wish to enter the Soulcaster PrC). Combine this with your ability to Share Spells with your Familiar (like Alter Self and Polymorph) and you're clearly in Tier 2 territory.

Now most of the things suggested I know, but I seem to have missed this feat. That sounds awesome. I'll have to look into getting a DM for whenever I campaign next to approve of the Soulspark Familiar for this...

[Veyr]

Be aware that I pulled Waist out of nowhere; I'm pretty sure it's one of the higher level ones, but I have no idea if those spell levels would be appropriate.

[Daverin]

Oh, I'd be sure to try to align spell levels and number given to the chakra bind's "level". Actually, instead of spells, I wonder if I could do psionics instead; I could give the meld a preset PP amount, and it could cast powers of up to a certain level (okay, so I'd still probably need to give it a limit to the number of powers through it...) I could then use the essentia invested to act as manifester level somehow...

If this goes much further, this probably would then belong in the homebrew forum.

[Glimbur]

I was kind of afraid of that one... I could try making an improved class, but 30+ melds is more than I want to put in just to make a concept work... although I wonder if I could find anyone on the boards who would be willing to work on a sort of unofficial incarnum supplement.

I've done a few extra melds. Check the sig. I'm almost sure other people have done more as well... there are sometimes Incarnum based PrC's in the PrC contest and those often come with bonus melds, for example.

It would be interesting to make a new incarnum base class... I don't have the time at present though.

[Daverin]

I've already seen some of your melds. Nice work, I must say. :smallsmile:

As for a new base class, I could do that; I have a couple of other things I'd want to give to a meldshaper, new melds or no. The biggest problem is dealing with concept: Do I want to take an already existing meldshaper and just redo it to my taste, or try to find a new concept to work off of? If so, what should that be, I wonder?

[Glimbur]

I've already seen some of your melds. Nice work, I must say. :smallsmile:

As for a new base class, I could do that; I have a couple of other things I'd want to give to a meldshaper, new melds or no. The biggest problem is dealing with concept: Do I want to take an already existing meldshaper and just redo it to my taste, or try to find a new concept to work off of? If so, what should that be, I wonder?

Well, there is a paladin analogue, a meldshaper based on the power of nature and magical beasts, and a meldshaper drawing primarily from the planes and outsiders. One could just run down the creature types, or take abstract notions like Charity, Justice, Respect, Intellectual Property, and Hope and make a meldshaper who picks their soulmeld list like clerics pick domains. That would be even trickier to balance, of course.

[Particle_Man]

Vow of Poverty? If you are giving up magic items slots anyhow, it is kind of a free boost.

[Daverin]

Well, there is a paladin analogue, a meldshaper based on the power of nature and magical beasts, and a meldshaper drawing primarily from the planes and outsiders. One could just run down the creature types, or take abstract notions like Charity, Justice, Respect, Intellectual Property, and Hope and make a meldshaper who picks their soulmeld list like clerics pick domains. That would be even trickier to balance, of course.

So... an incarnum ardent? That is a really interesting idea, although it sounds like a pain to keep in check. Another thought I have is making an incarnum "life zealot", so to speak, whose duty is to ensure that incarnum or positive energy or somesuch is spread as much as possible; kind of like the flip-side of the druid paradigm the totemist touches upon.


Vow of Poverty? If you are giving up magic items slots anyhow, it is kind of a free boost. This does sound good, especially since I always intend to use a VoP fix presented in the homebrew section whenever given the chance. :smalltongue:

[Prime32]

New kinds of incarnum class, you say? This might interest you. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11607)

Removing its limit on soulmelds would provide a substantial power boost, too.

[Daverin]

That looks interesting; I have thought of using the idea of reshaping melds before, but I decided that may lose some of what makes incarnum unique.

[Dragonmuncher]

I haven't looked at MoI in a long time, but I remember when reading it that the Totemist seemed like it could definitely have some great stuff. It's definitely a system that requires a lot of know-how to use well, but if you put in the amount of effort that Person Man obviously has, you can pull off some nice builds.

[balistafreak]

So... an incarnum ardent?

Incardent? :smallamused:

[Daverin]

Incardent? :smallamused:

I can't decide if I want to laugh or facepalm. Maybe even both.

That said, I am really liking the idea giving of spells (or powers, as it were) to soulmelds. I could see a strange psionic/incarnum hybrid gish who basically takes the melds and powers to become something like a soulknife (except with unique items instead of just "I have a weapon") and ardent combination, where their power list is based on melds instead of mantles. It would be hard to balance, but I think it could be doable; it would definitely be somewhat limited in its maximum powers level, though. And I think a standard fluff is pretty easy, since both the idea of souls and psionics can very easily be interpreted in the context of "what is being?" Does anyone else think that this is doable?

[Urpriest]

I can't decide if I want to laugh or facepalm. Maybe even both.

That said, I am really liking the idea giving of spells (or powers, as it were) to soulmelds. I could see a strange psionic/incarnum hybrid gish who basically takes the melds and powers to become something like a soulknife (except with unique items instead of just "I have a weapon") and ardent combination, where their power list is based on melds instead of mantles. It would be hard to balance, but I think it could be doable; it would definitely be somewhat limited in its maximum powers level, though. And I think a standard fluff is pretty easy, since both the idea of souls and psionics can very easily be interpreted in the context of "what is being?" Does anyone else think that this is doable?

It seems like a pretty decent idea. There are a few Vestiges that grant powers and power points, they might provide a good model of what sorts of abilities an alternate rules system with daily adjustments could have access to.

[Daverin]

That's a very good point; I keep forgetting that binders set a precedent for this kind of daily allocation of spells. I suppose I'm going to have to actually make the class then... The only problem is, picking which powers to add with which melds? Unless there is a way I could make it so that the melds give a number of powers, and you get to decide which powers they are? But, I'm betting that quickly breaks what makes the binders vestiges with spells work, eh?

EDIT: I just realized, I've never looked over whether you can bind one meld to multiple chakras. This will probably qualify as a newbish question, but could anybody answer it nonetheless? I feel like it could make a difference in how I approach this.

[Veyr]

You know, I thought there was a feat for that, but it looks like there isn't: I'm pretty sure you can't do that. Huh, odd. There is a feat that lets you bind two different Soulmelds to the same Chakra, but that's kind of the opposite of what you want.

[Daverin]

I do think that should actually be a high level class feature for an incarnate class, or maybe a prestige, but you are correct in that this case it is not all that applicable to why I am asking (or so I think, you never know when you are missing something...)

If so, that is interesting. I just realized why that could be the case; if you did that, then you could hypothetically get by with more stronger abilities for the same amount of essentia invested, since I would think that the essentia would be applied to the meld itself, and thus to every chakra bind involved.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I just realized, I've never looked over whether you can bind one meld to multiple chakras. This will probably qualify as a newbish question, but could anybody answer it nonetheless? I feel like it could make a difference in how I approach this.

May I direct your attention to the Totemist's 11th level ability? IT lets you bind a soulmeld to both your totem chakra and another chakra. Takes 2 chakra binds, yes, but the essentia goes twice as far...

[Veyr]

Aha! I knew there was something like that. I just looked in the feat section.

[Daverin]

Oh good, there is a precedent! Thanks for that, Kuul. :smallsmile:

Now with that, I guess I should start working on this idea.