Early entry into Anima Mage

[Aemoh87]

So I am trying to enter Anima Mage as quick as possible for my Sorc/Binder

My current idea is:
1 Level Sorc variant (Blood of Kyber most likely, maybe Battle Sorc if BoK is not allowed) with Intimidate
Take Bind Vestige and Bind Vestige Improved (Both Dead Feats after lvl 1)
Take Precocious Apprentice feat.
Enter Anima Mage at lvl 2.

One big problem is the Sorc Variant to get Intimidate is alittle annoying since it hoses casting (Both do). Is there a feat to get intimidate as a class skill or anything? I will have 4 feats after race and flaws. Any other suggestions?

HOLY COW. I just realized Sorc does not have knowledge the planes. I need a way to get that as well. So any ideas how to get Know (Planes) a class skill? Possibly a feat?

[Veyr]

Martial Study with a Iron Heart maneuver for Intimidate.

But technically feats come last in character creation, which means technically it would not affect your 1st level class skills.

[Aemoh87]

Martial Study with a Iron Heart maneuver for Intimidate.

But technically feats come last in character creation, which means technically it would not affect your 1st level class skills.

This is true, but my group has always allowed small stretches of the rules like this during character creation as we prefer to play at lower level so the sooner characters reach their prime the better. I totally forgot to mention that though, so thanks. If I was playing in a group without this I could take the feat for 5 additional skill points to make it work per the rules.

[JaronK]

But without any Binder levels, you're not actually advancing binding. So what's the point?

JaronK

[Veyr]

Actually, the absolutely-terrible wording on Anima Mage's Soul Binding feature does advance your binding as a Binder even if you have no levels in Binder. The word "existing" never appears in the text, as it does for spellcasting, it simply says that Anima Mage levels stack with Binder levels for the purposes of Soul Binding, and Binder 0 + Anima Mage X = Xth level Soul Binding.

[Aemoh87]

Actually, the absolutely-terrible wording on Anima Mage's Soul Binding feature does advance your binding as a Binder even if you have no levels in Binder. The word "existing" never appears in the text, as it does for spellcasting, it simply says that Anima Mage levels stack with Binder levels for the purposes of Soul Binding, and Binder 0 + Anima Mage X = Xth level Soul Binding.

This is how me and my DM took it as well. But it is clearly an area of gray. For this thread lets consider this to be the ruling we will use.

[Cog]

Alternate Class Features come after assigning skills as well, so by too strict a ruling it doesn't make any difference when an ACF changes the skills you get for a certain level.

Still, the advancement table says you assign skill points, not ranks. That kind of works out - you assign your points, and then if feats or ACFs change your class skills, the value of those points in terms of ranks might be affected. You've assigned the same points either way, so you're staying true to the order of level-up operations.

[Aemoh87]

Alternate Class Features come after assigning skills as well, so by too strict a ruling it doesn't make any difference when an ACF changes the skills you get for a certain level.

Still, the advancement table says you assign skill points, not ranks. That kind of works out - you assign your points, and then if feats or ACFs change your class skills, the value of those points in terms of ranks might be affected. You've assigned the same points either way, so you're staying true to the order of level-up operations.

So your saying if I pump 4 points into Intimidate, then make it a class skill I suddenly have 4 ranks in it? Not 2?

Also I found the Able Learner feat (RoDestiny) and the Educated feat (Eb), which would allow me to get knowledge the planes. Able Lerner is obviously better and I am planning relying on human anyways (or at least a 4th feat).

[Cog]

No, I'm just recommending it. If you don't read it that way, then any ACFs that change skill lists look a little silly. That doesn't mean you have to read it that way, though.

[Aemoh87]

No, I'm just recommending it. If you don't read it that way, then any ACFs that change skill lists look a little silly. That doesn't mean you have to read it that way, though.

Hmmm, well my group has always build characters where you choose ability scores, then race, then class (with alternate class features). After that it is kinda a free for all.

But your logic makes sense, which is something WotC does not always do.

[Cog]

The strict order for leveling up is given on pages 58 and 59 of the PHB, for reference. It's one of the few things taken out of the OGL material, but it's what tells you that you must qualify for PrCs the level before you take them, among other things.

[Veyr]

This is how me and my DM took it as well. But it is clearly an area of gray. For this thread lets consider this to be the ruling we will use.
I don't think it's a gray area — it was just poor wording on WotC's part. RAW, it very clearly and unambiguously works. RAI, almost certainly not.

[Thurbane]

Human Paragon 1/Sorc 1 can do it without using as many feats, at the cost of a caster level. You can take the other two Human Paragon levels later to boost your casting.

I don't think it's a gray area — it was just poor wording on WotC's part. RAW, it very clearly and unambiguously works. RAI, almost certainly not.
Agreed - I was stunned first time I saw this loophole.

[Urpriest]

So your saying if I pump 4 points into Intimidate, then make it a class skill I suddenly have 4 ranks in it? Not 2?

Also I found the Able Learner feat (RoDestiny) and the Educated feat (Eb), which would allow me to get knowledge the planes. Able Lerner is obviously better and I am planning relying on human anyways (or at least a 4th feat).

Able Learner won't help, since it only changes the cost of skill ranks, it doesn't actually give you class skills.

[Coidzor]

So I am trying to enter Anima Mage as quick as possible for my Sorc/Binder

My current idea is:
1 Level Sorc variant (Blood of Kyber most likely, maybe Battle Sorc if BoK is not allowed) with Intimidate
Take Bind Vestige and Bind Vestige Improved (Both Dead Feats after lvl 1)
Take Precocious Apprentice feat.
Enter Anima Mage at lvl 2.

One big problem is the Sorc Variant to get Intimidate is alittle annoying since it hoses casting (Both do). Is there a feat to get intimidate as a class skill or anything? I will have 4 feats after race and flaws. Any other suggestions?

HOLY COW. I just realized Sorc does not have knowledge the planes. I need a way to get that as well. So any ideas how to get Know (Planes) a class skill? Possibly a feat?

Education gets all knowledge skills and is available from ghostwalk and eberron and a couple of other places in 3.X

There's the... apprentice/mentor feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-160331.html)which could be used to get intimidate as a class skill I believe. Those are from... either DMG2 or PHB2 I think.

And an Unearthed Arcana feat, I believe.

[Veyr]

The Unearthed Arcana feat pertains to a variant skill system; not to say your DM wouldn't allow it, but it's not one you can generally assume.

There are usually more efficient ways to gain class skills, though. The Apprentice feats give you two, Martial Study gives you a maneuver and a class skill, Educated gives you what, ten class skills? One feat for one class skill is a poor trade in any case, though IIRC there are some skills that require it.

[Coidzor]

^: True, but listed it for the sake of listing it, really.

Besides, since UA is all online content anyway, one is able to read it as well as supposed to before using it.
Agreed - I was stunned first time I saw this loophole.

I'm intrigued now that I know about it. Though I kinda probably wanna try out either part of it first before combining the two, I think.

[Aemoh87]

I considered human paragon because I am feeling the pinch feat wise. I am real tight on feats at the moment.

Early Entry Feats: Precocious Apprentice, Bind Vestige, Bind Vestige Improved, Able Learner

Must Haves: Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Energy Substitution, Born of Three Thunders, Combat Reflexes

Wants: Mage Slayer (I know it hurts caster level), Supernatural Crusader, Supernatural Oppertunist, Ability Focus

I can use Heroics to get Mage Slayer and Combat Reflexes if I need to.

[Urpriest]

Able Learner

What is Able Learner getting you?

[dextercorvia]

If you take Improved Binding, instead of Improved Bind Vestige, you haven't wasted that feat slot.

Why are you going Sorcerer over Wizard?

[Veyr]

+1 for a Binder level over Human Paragon. Why fight your way in with cheese if you're losing a spellcasting level anyway? A Wizard 3/Binder 1/Anima Mage X is a quite-solid character anyway; a Wizard 1/Binder 1/Anima Mage X+2 is even better.

[JaronK]

Honestly, I don't see the point in fighting so hard to enter that early, when Archivist 3/Binder 1/Anima Mage 10/Tenebrous Apostate 5/X1 is such a strong build anyway.

JaronK

[Aemoh87]

What is Able Learner getting you?

Ranks in things that are not class skills, I realize this does not work as written since I would get the feat after I put in my skill points but the DM is fine with this as there is some obvious glitches in that system. (It has been pointed out on this thread already.)


If you take Improved Binding, instead of Improved Bind Vestige, you haven't wasted that feat slot.

Why are you going Sorcerer over Wizard?

Don't I need soul binding for improved binding? I won't have that until I enter anima mage.

Also I am going Sorcerer over wizard for flavor reasons, wizard is always better but I am trying to make a very challenging character for myself to play.


+1 for a Binder level over Human Paragon. Why fight your way in with cheese if you're losing a spellcasting level anyway? A Wizard 3/Binder 1/Anima Mage X is a quite-solid character anyway; a Wizard 1/Binder 1/Anima Mage X+2 is even better.

The entire character is built around persisting a 4th level spell (Thunderlance) so I am rushing towards it as fast as I can. I do realize Incantrix would do this better but I just wanna avoid it.


Honestly, I don't see the point in fighting so hard to enter that early, when Archivist 3/Binder 1/Anima Mage 10/Tenebrous Apostate 5/X1 is such a strong build anyway.

JaronK

The challenge. Plus I have a fun character concept that is so wavering on tier 3 or 4 (I say three, but some of the other characters in my group put it as a 4 in the grand scheme, either way doesn't matter).

I literally picked two things that don't belong together (Thunderlance and Call Lightning) and decided to build a character around them. Thunderlance needs to be readily available, Call lightning go replaced with Binder.

Then some one said this reminded them of yoda, so now it's a jedi themed character.

AND FINALLY... I was thinking about going craft rod and making a rod of Thunderlance at will. Remember this is neither light nor saber. But this means applying metamagics to a rod (Born of Three Thunders, not persist) and I have never looked into that before.

[Urpriest]

Ranks in things that are not class skills, I realize this does not work as written since I would get the feat after I put in my skill points but the DM is fine with this as there is some obvious glitches in that system. (It has been pointed out on this thread already.)


Able Learner makes it cheaper, but it doesn't improve your max ranks. I just was unclear about which you were going for here. If you're merely using Able Learner to lessen the cost in skill points, my apologies (though really, you could just have a higher Int).

[Aemoh87]

Able Learner makes it cheaper, but it doesn't improve your max ranks. I just was unclear about which you were going for here. If you're merely using Able Learner to lessen the cost in skill points, my apologies (though really, you could just have a higher Int).

Huh, you just found a typo in the crystal keep's feat index. No your right. I was hoping to use it to get max ranks in intimidate and know planes level one. I can use a sorc variant to get the intimidate ranks easy enough, but the know planes requires a feat. Most likely educated then.

[Cog]

Huh, you just found a typo in the crystal keep's feat index.
You make it sound as if there aren't a million others.

[Aemoh87]

You make it sound as if there aren't a million others.

Normally I spot them though. And I rarely use the index when actually building characters but I got lazy and it serves me right. I like to think that the typo was karma.

[Greenish]

Besides, since UA is all online content anywayNot everything from UA is OGL.

[GideonRiddle]

Don't forget your metamagic feat requirement.
Nothing you have listed so far is a MM feat.

[Thurbane]

Don't forget your metamagic feat requirement.
Nothing you have listed so far is a MM feat.
That's why my preferred early entry to Anima Mage is Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell.

[Aemoh87]

Don't forget your metamagic feat requirement.
Nothing you have listed so far is a MM feat.

Ugh this is getting difficult. I may not be able to enter at level two :( which is very depressing because entering prestiges at level two is hellza crafty.

I did hear one very strange idea but it sounds like a HUGE stretch of the rules. Sorcs who take variant levels from the planar handbook get know the planes... but the first variant is not until 5th level. The argument is made that if you dedicate your 5th sorc level to planar variant you get know planes as a class skill at level one. Unlikely.

Another suggestion involved Lore Drake, Kobold, and yea... you know where this is going by now. Free level 2 sorc and a level of binder. After reading alittle maybe kobold is a bad idea, even though I am directly opposed to Lore Drake. Regardless whether your on team Jacob or team Edward, we all know lore drake was not meant for kobolds.

Random question... what happens if I take a few levels of Anima Mage then begin to level binder? Where do the class abilities start? Level one right?

[Psychonix]

I must be missing something here.
How does Archivist 3/Binder 1 enable you to enter Anima Mage?
Archivist is not an arcane spell casting class and it therefore does not qualify for entry in to anima mage.

Alignment: Any nongood
Skills: Intimidate 4 ranks, Knowledge (The Planes) 4 ranks
Feat: Any Metamagic feat
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells
Special: Ability to bind second level vestiges

Alignment is easy, as are the skills (both are class skills for binders), 2nd level vestiges requires 1 level of binder and Improved binding, or Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige.

Earliest that I can see is 4th level entry, Human Wizard 2/Binder 1. Take Precocious Apprentice and a metamagic feat at first level, then at 3rd you take improved binding. You now meet all the prerequisites.

[Veyr]

Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige get you 2nd (actually 3rd) level Vestiges.

Precocious Apprentice gets you a 2nd level spell.

Any metamagic feat gets you that last req.

Those are the main requirements, and they take four feats. A Human can take all four if he can get two Flaws from Unearthed Arcana. However, the issue then becomes the Intimidate 4 ranks. I'm not sure if there's a 100% completely legit way to get those at level 1 as a Wizard or Sorcerer, considering the technical rules for leveling-up. If you're ignoring those, though, just take a Fighter-Bonus-Feats Wizard, and dumb Scribe Scroll for Martial Study.

[Cog]

I'm not sure if there's a 100% completely legit way to get those at level 1 as a Wizard or Sorcerer, considering the technical rules for leveling-up.
Those technical rules don't make sense with any ACF that changes skill lists, though, so the intent is pretty clear that the change should be retroactive for that level. Otherwise...

...Battle Sorcerer gets Intimidate.

[Veyr]

Enchanters can, too, looking at the Variant section of the SRD. Neither of those ACFs is particularly good, not when you could just wait a level. You don't even lose spellcasting...

[Coidzor]

Those technical rules don't make sense with any ACF that changes skill lists, though, so the intent is pretty clear that the change should be retroactive for that level. Otherwise...

...Battle Sorcerer gets Intimidate.

Rules are made so that sometimes sanity has to take precedence.

[Aemoh87]

I must be missing something here.
How does Archivist 3/Binder 1 enable you to enter Anima Mage?
Archivist is not an arcane spell casting class and it therefore does not qualify for entry in to anima mage.

Alignment: Any nongood
Skills: Intimidate 4 ranks, Knowledge (The Planes) 4 ranks
Feat: Any Metamagic feat
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells
Special: Ability to bind second level vestiges

Alignment is easy, as are the skills (both are class skills for binders), 2nd level vestiges requires 1 level of binder and Improved binding, or Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige.

Earliest that I can see is 4th level entry, Human Wizard 2/Binder 1. Take Precocious Apprentice and a metamagic feat at first level, then at 3rd you take improved binding. You now meet all the prerequisites.

I do have access to flaws :) I am really trying to get in early, the DM is also lenient on the fact he lets us apply skills points and feats at the same time, not in the normal order stated.


Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige get you 2nd (actually 3rd) level Vestiges.

Precocious Apprentice gets you a 2nd level spell.

Any metamagic feat gets you that last req.

Those are the main requirements, and they take four feats. A Human can take all four if he can get two Flaws from Unearthed Arcana. However, the issue then becomes the Intimidate 4 ranks. I'm not sure if there's a 100% completely legit way to get those at level 1 as a Wizard or Sorcerer, considering the technical rules for leveling-up. If you're ignoring those, though, just take a Fighter-Bonus-Feats Wizard, and dumb Scribe Scroll for Martial Study.

Sorc Variants have intimidate. Knowledge the planes becomes a much more annoying problem.

Essentially if I use a race with a bonus feat and flaw I can take:

Sorcerer with intimidate lvl 1
Precocious Apprentice
Bind Vestige
Improved Bind Vestige
Some random Metamagic. (Most likely empower or quicken... or eschew mats.)

This leaves me just missing knowledge the planes 4 ranks... any ideas?
I know the obvious is go wizard but I was hoping to go sorc just for alittle added challenge.

[Psychonix]

If you have flaws, second level entry is easy.

Battle sorcerer
Metamagic Feat
Bind Vestige
Improved Bind Vestige
Precocious Apprentice
Education (All knowledge skills are class skills, assuming your dm allows a feat from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting)
3 Flaws

[Coidzor]

If you have flaws, second level entry is easy.

Battle sorcerer
Metamagic Feat
Bind Vestige
Improved Bind Vestige
Precocious Apprentice
Education (All knowledge skills are class skills, assuming your dm allows a feat from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting)
3 Flaws

Or Eberron or Ghostwalk, IIRC.

[true_shinken]

I'm pretty sure you can get Intimidate via Draconic Heritage. Also, if you're dragonblooded, I believe there is an ACF that gets you Draconic Heritage for free.

[Thurbane]

Isn't there a planar sub level for Sorcerers that gives them Knowledge (the planes)? Planar Handbook, from memory.

[Aemoh87]

If you have flaws, second level entry is easy.

Battle sorcerer
Metamagic Feat
Bind Vestige
Improved Bind Vestige
Precocious Apprentice
Education (All knowledge skills are class skills, assuming your dm allows a feat from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting)
3 Flaws

Usually we only play with 2 flaws. But I can try for three.


Isn't there a planar sub level for Sorcerers that gives them Knowledge (the planes)? Planar Handbook, from memory.

Yes but the first sub level is 5th... :(

[Axinian]

Couldn't you "apprentice" under someone to get Know Planes? Or does that require a feat as well? I haven't looked in a while but the rules are in PHBII.

[Aemoh87]

Couldn't you "apprentice" under someone to get Know Planes? Or does that require a feat as well? I haven't looked in a while but the rules are in PHBII.

It could, especially because it is so very much the nature of my character to do so. In the long run educated is alittle better feat wise, but it most likely will not make a difference (I need 4 ranks knowledge nature later on).

I am just kinda shocked that sorc does not have knowledge the planes... it's right up there alley.

[Thurbane]

I am just kinda shocked that sorc does not have knowledge the planes... it's right up there alley.
The designer of the Fiend Blooded PrC (HoH) would agree with you. He built the entire class around the assumption that Knowledge (the planes) is a class skill for Sorcerers (needless to say, the sample character doesn't legally qualify for the PrC).

[Aemoh87]

The designer of the Fiend Blooded PrC (HoH) would agree with you. He built the entire class around the assumption that Knowledge (the planes) is a class skill for Sorcerers (needless to say, the sample character doesn't legally qualify for the PrC).

That is hilarious. Still I don't think it is considerable evidence for my sorc to have know the planes. Which I really need :(

Odds are I need Educated.

[GideonRiddle]

Can you apply two ACFs? If so you could just apply Battle Sorcerer and Blood of Siberys. This gets you both Intimidate and Know(planes). Also the Siberys ability would help offset your lost spells from Battle Sorcerer.