Mystic Theurge + Warlock= win?

[calcifer10]

Hello everyone, this is my first post as a longtime lurker here on the site. I don't know if this has been brought up already, but is it possible to use the mystic theurge's spellcasting progression to technically "advance" in warlock (twice), cleric, and sorcerer by having it apply to the eldritch disciple and eldritch theurge classes? This question has been bothering me for a while now...

[Douglas]

No. For the purpose of classes like Mystic Theurge (and even single-caster PrCs like Loremaster), a "spellcasting class" is a class that grants spellcasting in its own right rather than advancing the casting of another class. Eldritch Disciple/Theurge do not qualify.

[Bakkan]

The normal interpretation (and in my opinion, Rules as Written) is that prestige classes that advance spellcasting only advance classes that have spellcasting as a class feature directly. So Mystic Theurge cannot advance Eldritch Disciple because Eldritch Disiple does not have spellcasting of its own. Prestige classes can only advance base classes with spellcasting or prestige classes with their own spellcasting progression (such as the Assassin or the Ur-Priest).

[calcifer10]

Ah, ok that makes alot of sense. How wonderful it would be if that actually worked :smallamused:

[Veyr]

Eh... You'd need to be a Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Warlock 1/Eldritch Disciple 2/Eldritch Theurge 1 in order to get everything in place to advance both Disciple and Theurge here. That's ECL 10, casting as a 4th level Wizard, a 4th level Cleric, and a 4th level Warlock. Add Mystic Theurge 10, and you're casting as 14th level Wizard/Cleric/Warlock — at 20th level. 7th level spells and Greater Invocations aren't going to cut it at that level.

[Re'ozul]

To be fair, he'd be trying to advance Warlock twice for level 24 warlock casting.
Not that this could ever work (CL=<character level i think) but the idea is there.

[Jack Zander]

To be fair, he'd be trying to advance Warlock twice for level 24 warlock casting.
Not that this could ever work (CL=<character level i think) but the idea is there.

Actually, you can have your caster level be higher than your character level through various items. I think this trick would work if it were valid.

[Veyr]

Yes, sorry, I did forget to include that. OK, so 14th level Wizard, 14th level Cleric, 24th level Warlock, which doesn't exist, so 20th level Warlock. It's better than Warlock 20, probably, but that doesn't say a whole lot.

[MeeposFire]

24th level warlock exists I do not understand that comment?

[Jack Zander]

I don't understand that either. You can have your caster level increase beyond 20 AND your class level guys.

[Veyr]

I mean that there is not 21st, 22nd, 23rd, or 24th level of Warlock to take. Pretty sure it has no Epic progression. And I'm also pretty sure you couldn't take it before 20th even if it did. I suppose you could argue that your Caster Level does, at least, increase, but you wouldn't get more Invocations or more Eldritch Blast damage.

[SPoD]

Epic Warlock progression. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a)

[MeeposFire]

Epic warlock is described in full in Complete arcane page 189. A 24th level warlock is said to have a 13d6 eldritch blast (typo it should be 11d6 I think).

On page 18 of complete arcane says that prestige classes that improve caster level also improve eldritch blast damage so if his caster level for warlock was 24 from prcs doing this then eldritch blast would be as a level 24 warlock.

So 11d6 eldritch blasts woo.:smallwink:

[Veyr]

Aha, correct you are. So yay, 11d6 Eldritch Blast. This is still not worth it.

[MeeposFire]

True hence the woo:smallwink:.

[Zaq]

Heh. I think everyone (OK, many people, sheesh) comes up with some flavor of MT-chaining at some point before realizing that the rules just don't work that way. I remember that I had some weird thing involving Geomancer all set to go when I first thought of it.

[dextercorvia]

Contemplative can be used to chain MT, but it requires Southern Magician. It is the only class I know that offers casting of its own and progresses another class's casting.

Wizard10/Contemplative1/MT9 could have the casting of a 29th level Wizard.

[Douglas]

Contemplative can be used to chain MT, but it requires Southern Magician. It is the only class I know that offers casting of its own and progresses another class's casting.

Wizard10/Contemplative1/MT9 could have the casting of a 29th level Wizard.
That's not how it works. Contemplative either advances another class's casting or gives its own, not both. If you've got Wizard qualifying to be advanced by Contemplative then you don't get the independent Contemplative casting and it doesn't qualify for MT.

[dextercorvia]

That's not how it works. Contemplative either advances another class's casting or gives its own, not both. If you've got Wizard qualifying to be advanced by Contemplative then you don't get the independent Contemplative casting and it doesn't qualify for MT.

I'm not sure that MT would actually advance Wizard twice, since advancing it once would satisfy the wording both times it occurs, like using Ultimate Magus.

But, I am fairly certain that you do get both Contemplative casting and advancement. Can you show me how those are exclusive cases?

It says you gain advancement of one class. (This applies to everyone)

Then it gives the following two qualifiers. If you have two or more divine classes, you have to choose one. If you did not belong to a divine spellcasting class, then you gain (not instead of or replacing the earlier ability) cleric casting equal to Contemplative level.

[Douglas]

The advancing another class portion is specific to divine casting, as per the first sentence of the spells per day/spells known section which specifies divine magic, and as per the table which says +1 level of existing divine class at each level. If you have a class that is eligible for it, it's because that class is a divine spellcasting class - and your possession of such a class disqualifies you for Contemplative's own casting.

[dextercorvia]

A contemplative who was previously a spellcaster continues to gain access to more powerful divine magic while following the contemplative path. Thus, when a new contemplative level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in the spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class.

You are referring to this. Yes you gain access to more powerful divine magic. Either you are advancing a divine class, or you are gaining more Contemplative casting. That doesn't modify the next sentence. That is the standard wording for advancing spellcasting of any class. Yes, it disagrees with the table, but I needn't tell you what a disagreeing table is worth to RAW.

[Douglas]

The word "thus" at the start of the second sentence clearly establishes that it is a continuation and consequence of the first and therefore carries over the divine specification.