A Tier System for NWoD Creatures

[wayfare]

I've had some great experiences with the early NWoD books (Mage, Werewolf, Vampire), and I've kept up with the splat books (Promethean, Changeling, Hunter, Geist). I'm thinking about running a Pan NWoD game, and was wondering how the races stacked up against one another.

So, does anybody want to help me create a tier system variant for NWoD?

[senrath]

Changelings generally don't play well with others, and neither do Prometheans.

[SurlySeraph]

It's generally considered Mage > Geist > Changeling, Promethean > Vampire, Werewolf > Hunters, Ghouls, and other minor supernaturals.

With that said, a werewolf fresh out of character generation will likely rip apart a Mage or Sin-Eater fresh out of chargen. The disparities get most noticeable when they get higher XP. Sin-Eaters and Mages get several powers per "rank" they buy, while other supernaturals don't. Werewolves have to waste XP on Renown.
Supernatural weaknesses are also part of it. Mages have Paradox, but the rules for it aren't really all that harsh; and once you've got decent Space you can just sit in your basement casting spells without having to worry about mortals seeing you. The closest thing Sin-Eaters have to a supernatural weakness is that they need Plasm to power almost everything they do and it's hard to regain Plasm. Prometheans are vulnerable to fire but their beefiness partly makes up for it, and Changelings don't get supernatural defenses against cold iron but don't take extra damage from it. Meanwhile, Werewolves die to silver (and regain Essence pretty slowly), and Vampires die to fire and sunlight.

[comicshorse]

It's generally considered Mage > Geist > Changeling, Promethean > Vampire, Werewolf > Hunters, Ghouls, and other minor supernaturals.


A slight digression here but Changelings are considered powewrful ? I'm playing one and my character is constantly getting his head handed to him. Am I doing something wrong ?

[The Glyphstone]

A slight digression here but Changelings are considered powewrful ? I'm playing one and my character is constantly getting his head handed to him. Am I doing something wrong ?

Probably not horrifically abusing Contracts for all sorts of ridiculous bonuses.

[senrath]

Changelings are powerful. Just not really in combat. They have some really powerful effects that you can end up triggering for free in the right circumstances.

[wayfare]

Geist really threw me for a loop -- those guys seemed to be in a class of their own when it came to killing stuff, and their aoe powers are so comprehensive that they come off as total beasts. I was expecting them to be around Changelings in power...

Promethean...how I love you, but the genre is so specific that I almost feel like they can't interact with other supernaturals.

Thanks for the help so far!

[Friv]

A slight digression here but Changelings are considered powewrful ? I'm playing one and my character is constantly getting his head handed to him. Am I doing something wrong ?

Are you taking short-duration Pledges for exceptionally useful Merits? That's one of the really big and often-overlooked power sources of a changeling - for one Willpower, you can pick up a +3 to any Merit for a week and then drop it when you don't need it anymore, so that you aren't bound by a host of dangerous promises.

Are you taking advantage of dream-crafting? If you can get a couple of days off, it lets you quickly recover Willpower, heal, save spells for free casting later, and even gain experience (urgh).

Are you taking advantage of the fact that your freehold is likely to have more sources of aid than most nWoD games (ST dependent, here)? Changeling politics tend to be less viciously destructive than what vampires have to deal with, and their freeholds are usually larger than the support structures that werewolves, prometheans, or hunters have access to. (Dunno about geists. How numerous are they? And mages seem to have decent-sized support networks.)

If you post your character, I'd be happy to give you more advice. I'm a huge Changeling fan.

Tier-wise, I've found that changelings play very well with werewolves and hunters, not so well with mages or vampires (but no one plays well with vampires on account of the night thing).

[senrath]

The Sin Eater support network consists of chatrooms, message boards, and writing in cemeteries. It's...not very useful for anything but information.

And their number is small enough that essentially no one knows about them, except for other Sin Eaters.

[SurlySeraph]

Geist really threw me for a loop -- those guys seemed to be in a class of their own when it came to killing stuff, and their aoe powers are so comprehensive that they come off as total beasts. I was expecting them to be around Changelings in power...

Yeah. I love the idea of Geist, but they're more powerful than I want to play them as. I want ghost-y people, not death wizards.
That's solvable, though. I'd consider requiring them to buy Manifestations separately for each Key (and reducing the cost of manifestations a bit to compensate, and giving them more manifestation dots at chargen to compensate), letting blessed weapons ignore their magic defenses like cold iron weapons do for Changelings, and having their Geists occasionally attempt to possess them (probably with a system based on the rules from Inferno). And their powers could use some more internal balance, especially the Boneyard manifestation and the Industrial key.

[comicshorse]

Are you taking short-duration Pledges for exceptionally useful Merits? That's one of the really big and often-overlooked power sources of a changeling - for one Willpower, you can pick up a +3 to any Merit for a week and then drop it when you don't need it anymore, so that you aren't bound by a host of dangerous promises.

Are you taking advantage of dream-crafting? If you can get a couple of days off, it lets you quickly recover Willpower, heal, save spells for free casting later, and even gain experience (urgh).

Are you taking advantage of the fact that your freehold is likely to have more sources of aid than most nWoD games (ST dependent, here)? Changeling politics tend to be less viciously destructive than what vampires have to deal with, and their freeholds are usually larger than the support structures that werewolves, prometheans, or hunters have access to. (Dunno about geists. How numerous are they? And mages seem to have decent-sized support networks.)

If you post your character, I'd be happy to give you more advice. I'm a huge Changeling fan.

.

I can use the help so....

NAME: Cernunos SEEMING: Beast (stag) KITH: Runner Swift
VIRTUE: Justice VICE:Pride MOTLEY: The Royal Bastards

INTELLIGENCE: 3 STRENGTH: 3 PRESENCE: 3
WITS: 3 DEXTERITY: 3 MANIPULATION: 1
RESOLVE: 3 STAMINA: 3 COMPOSURE: 3

MENTAL: Academics (Literature) 4, Computer 2, Crafts (Blacksmith) 3, Investigation 1, Medicine 1, Occult 1

PHYSICAL: Athletics (running) 2, Brawl 2, Drive 2, Firearms 2, Larceny 1, Stealth 2, Survival 1, Weaponry (swords) 4 (5 with Pledge)

SOCIAL: Animal Ken 2, Empathy 2, Expression 1, Intimidation 1, Persuasion1, Socialize 1, Streetwise 2, Subterfuge 1

HEALTH: 8
WILLPOWER: 5
CLARITY: 6
SPEED: 13
DEFENCE: 3
INITIATIVE: 5

MERITS: Fghting Finesse 2, Language 1, Allies 2 ( Homeless, Biker gang), Resources 2, Weapon Dodge 1, Quick Draw 2, Fae Mount 3, Monarch's Tolerance 1, Sword and Shield fighting style 3, Hobgoblin Kin 2, Summer Mantle 2

TOKENS: Knights Move, Hedge Spun Chain (imposes no Dex penalties), Hedge Spun gloves (immune to heat), Hammer and Anvil

CONTRACTS: Fang and Talon 1, Omens 1, Hours 1, Dreams 1, The Wild, 1, Punishing Summer 2, Thorn 1, Artifice 2

PLEDGES:
Hangman Pledge: In return for saving a Goblins life will not sleep properly for a year and a day (regain no Willpower from rest)

SQUIRES PLEDGE: In return for protecting local homeless they provide Glamour to me

KNIGHTS PLEDGE: Forbiddance(-3) Never Retreat unless ordered
Boon: Adroitness (+1), Blessing: Disarm (+2)
Sanction: Curse (-1), Poisoned Boon, Adroitness (-1)
Duration: Season


GEAR: Sword, Hedge Spun Chain, Flintlock Pistol, Revolver, Click Stick, Hedge Mount, Battered car



Cernunos, Michael Penhaligan, was a university lecturer in Medieval literature and happily married man until his wife was killed in a random mugging. Michael's mind snapped and he took refuge in his beloved Arthurian legend, imagining himself to be one of the Knights of the Round Table Michael guarded the inhabitants of San Francisco from all evil that would threaten it.
Until he was snatched into Faerie and transformed into a Stag to provide a hunt for the Wild Huntsman. He and his herd was hunted for time unknowable until brought to bay he turned on the Huntsman and tore through his pack back into the world he had known.
Insane as he was Michael adapted easily to life as a Changeling until an encounter with his wife's Fetch awoke his real memories. His wife had not been killed but snatched into Fearie before him and it was this that had driven him insane.
More his old self nowadays Michael still fits in well in his new society. Although he no-longer thinks he is a Knight he still tries to act like one. He prefers to fight with sword and only the insistence of his superiors in the Summer Court has lead him to learn any skill with firearms.
He is determined to return his wife but the matter is severely confused by the fact that a prophecy has left wondering if his wife has not become a Loyalist and the affair he has started with another Changeling, Whiskey Jane of the Summer Court

[Friv]

Huh. That's a decently solid and rounded guy you have there. I'm a little surprised that he's not holding his own in fights. He's got strong defenses, good attacks, and mobility, and without being useless in mental or social situations.

Merits: Fighting Finesse was a mistake. As it stands, it actually gives you nothing, since your Strength is equal to your Dex, and you won't want to boost your Defense with Attributes, since your Dex and Wits are both 3. If you can, get your ST to let you refund that one, as it is literally six wasted XP. Summer Mantle 3 gives you a free point of Armor along with its bonus die on social rolls, and I think your character can justify that connection to wrath. See if you can get that Fighting Finesse moved there.

I'm guessing your Hedge Chain is a suit of armor, and the "no Dex penalty" applies equally to Defense? If not, it's probably not as useful as it could be. Unfortunately, Hedgespun Armor as written in the Changeling core is kind of useless, since it looks like armor to mundanes and provides ordinary armor bonuses. You're better off just owning a flak jacket, which you can do with your Resources, gaining better defense and bulletproofness.*

(* I hate this about Hedgespun equipment, incidentally. It's one of my few complaints with the system, and I tend to houserule it stronger to make it worth taking, because it's really cool.)

You have a couple of Tokens that I think were unique to you, and I don't recall Monarch's Tolerance?

Contracts: With a swordfighter, the Contracts of Stone are amazing, and you should definitely pick up Stone 1 - it's an extra 1-3 dice on your attacks, effectively. After that, it gets a bit pricey, but tearing through walls and healing up after a meal is awesome. Similarly, Elements 2 is very nice in a fight, since people get discouraged from hitting things that set them on fire. Fang and Talon can give you increased mobility and non-combat stuff.

Miscellaneous: I notice you don't have a motley oath. Are the PCs in your game not close to one another? Often, I've found that those oaths are great ways to get a few bonuses in exchange for something that you, as a PC, will never do (ignore the plight of fellow PCs). Other than that, a war pledge when you're heading into major fights for +2 to Sword and Shield, or boosts to your Initiative and Speed, would be pretty sweet for you.

Also, how's your Wyrd? A Wyrd of 2-3 is probably best for this build, since you're using lots of low-tier abilities.

[comicshorse]

In order then:
Fighting Finesse was a mistake but the G.M.isn't in favour of refunds. Must check out Summer Mantle 3 though

Yes the Chain doesn't apply penalaties to Defence

I think Monarch's Tolerance is a creation of our G.M. The Motley have the privelge of jesters in a medieval court as we can criticise the decisions of our superiors and are, to an extent, indulged in this rather than being punished

I was thinking of Contract of Elements but more of metal. Though Contract of Stone sounds great !

My mistake we do have a Motley Oath that gives me a Dot in Larceny and Streetwise and the Monarch's Tolerance Merit.
Where do I find War Pledges ?

Indeed I've got Wyrd 3

Thanks for all the advice :smallsmile:

[Teln]

It's generally considered Mage > Geist > Changeling, Promethean > Vampire, Werewolf > Hunters, Ghouls, and other minor supernaturals.


Where do Geniuses fall on that list?

[senrath]

No clue. I've only ever played the official systems.

[SurlySeraph]

I think in the Changeling and Promethean tier, but it's been a while since I've read anything about Genius.

[Yuki Akuma]

I'd say they're closer to SIn-Eaters or even Mages, honestly. And not jsut because I'm a Genius fanboy.

Their Axioms are incredibly broad - Arcana-level broad. Except there are less of them, and some effects Mages get at high Arcana can be gotten at quite low Axiom... Plus, a Genius can have every Axiom at five, whereas Mages have to settle for 4 in two out of ten of them.

On the other hand, all of their powers require them to bind Mania to their Wonders, or spend Mania directly, although Wonders require a lengthy construction time.

On the third hand, regaining Mania is incredibly easy.

[Friv]

I think Monarch's Tolerance is a creation of our G.M. The Motley have the privelge of jesters in a medieval court as we can criticise the decisions of our superiors and are, to an extent, indulged in this rather than being punished

Ah, cool.


I was thinking of Contract of Elements but more of metal. Though Contract of Stone sounds great !
Metal is fun, especially at higher levels, but do recall that the first level of the Contract does not protect you from any directed attacks. So you won't accidentally cut yourself on a sword, but it doesn't do a thing if someone shoots you.


My mistake we do have a Motley Oath that gives me a Dot in Larceny and Streetwise and the Monarch's Tolerance Merit.
Where do I find War Pledges ?

Sorry, that's me using a quick shorthand rather than referencing an actual rules term. I am referring to a pledge where you swear not to forgive an enemy, or not to withdraw from a coming battle, or to support your fellow soldiers no matter what, in exchange for a durational combat benefit.

Example:

"I will be the bulwark on which my army stands. I will be the one to lead the charge, and the last to withdraw from the field. So long as one of my allies remains in danger, I will fight. If I should let my people down, let them enact their vengeance."

Type: Vow
Tasks: Endeavor, Medial (-2) [Do not withdraw from battle or stop fighting as long as any of your allies are alive and present, and cover their retreat if your side pulls out.]
Boons: Blessing [Merit: Sword & Shield +2] (+2), Blessing [Merit: Iron Stamina +1] (+1)
Sanction: Vunerability [Violence] (-2)
Duration: One Week (+1)



Thanks for all the advice :smallsmile:

No problem! :)