Houserule tips (On balancing tiers, dragons, and the like)

[Kingscourt]

3.5 Dungeons and Dragons was my first tabletop, and will always be my favorite. I love it, and until I began actively using these forums, it didn't occur to me how... somewhat unfair a lot of the game is. So naturally I've been working on houseruling and homebrewing things to make the game... more fair. Primarily in terms of spellcasters vs. fighters and the like. Now, before we get into that, there are a few things you should all probably know:

1. I am a believer in the 'Linear Fighter, Quadratic Wizard' idea, but I want to make it an even bigger... distinction I suppose. Someone can roll a spellcaster, and if they can make it to higher levels with that d4 hit die in my campaign, then they deserve to be stronger. With that being said... not as strong as they are in just plain 3.5

2. I like the way fighters are now. Tome of battle isn't something I like, I don't see fighters getting to do extra damage because of different stances or supernatural things or whatever, I like them the way they are... however this tends to leave them a little... useless.

3. The idea of the epic, fighter vs. dragon one on one thing has always been... just... so cool to me. On so many levels. Unfortunately, fighters do not usually last more than 1 or 2 full rounds against a dragon... because of y'know. 2 claws, bite, 2 wings, and a tail attack. I want to make it more possible for a fighter to take down a dragon.


Now to do all of these things (and now that I'm thinking about it, kinda making it more Oots styled in terms of balance) I've done/thought about doing all this:

-30 point buy for wizards/clerics. 32 for rogues/barbarians and the like. 35 for fighters/paladins/monks.
-Dragons only get 2 claws and a bite when they're attacking someone head on, the tail attack may be used on a target behind them as part of their full attack, but other than that, seeing a giant dragon hit someone with it's claws, then biting them, then hitting them with it's wings (which is weird), and then sweeping it with it's tail over and over seems kinda weird.
-Smite evil does 2 times Paladin level for damage.
-Banning clearly broken spells for spellcasters
-Forcing wizards to specialize (though I'm kinda iffy on this one)

I'm trying to think of other things to make the playing field more level, so I figured I'd turn it to you Playgrounders to see if you guys had any good tips, or did something to make it more fair.

[TheCoelacanth]

I wouldn't bother banning generalist wizards. They're pretty clearly weaker than specialists, unless domain wizard or elven generalist is available. You might want to consider banning those though.

[HunterOfJello]

I think the first rule for creating houserules is to consider every single one carefully in terms of necessity and balance. Necessity meaning, is this houserule really necessary for the game in question, or is it an unnecessary complication.

If you're not 200% sure that you want to use a houserule, then don't concretely put it into play yet. It's also good to check out some of the Houserules threads on this forum to find out some of the common houserules that lots of other groups use. The game has been out for a long time and it's unlikely that you're the first person to think up a new houserule, so if other groups aren't using a rule already, there's likely to be a balance or necessity reason for it.

A good example is that many to most groups don't use the multiclassing penalty rules. The houserule is so common that many people don't realize that it is a houserule because it just works out well, and that's the way houserules should work.
~

Now for some random comments on the houserules mentioned:

-Banning some of the broken spells and feats is perfectly acceptable. There's a list of spells that many people on this forum consider broken in a thread around here somewhere. Obvious examples are the Time Stop and Polymorph Any Object spells or a person abusing Divine Metamagic to Persist the spell Divine Power or an Antimagic Field.

-You have the right idea that if a group is going to use a point buy system, then there are some classes that really lose out. I'm not a fan of low point buys across the board because it obviously penalizes classes like the Paladin and Monk while not hurting Wizards and Sorcerers whatsoever. However, I prefer to just give out a higher point buy to all classes across the board. Clerics, Wizards, Druid and Sorcerers with a high point buy are going to be a bit better off, but they'll likely just gain the ability to not die as quickly. Fighters, Rogues, Barbarians, and everyone else however, are likely to improve quite a bit and gain access to more feats and abilities.

[Galathir]

I second the motion about keeping generalist wizards. Specialist wizards almost always tend to be more powerful then generalists (jack of all trades, master of none kind of thing).

If you're not looking to change fighters (such as allowing ToB), then you might want to just consider banning certain classes and only allowing players to pick classes from a lower tier (say tier 4 or lower). Lowering the point buy totals for wizards will help somewhat, but still, a wizard only really needs one good score and overall, it hardly limits casters and doesn't really give any significant boosts to melee characters.

And regarding dragons . . . WotC kinda designed dragons with a bit of "awesome factor". In my experience a dragon is kinda overpowered compared to other monsters of it's CR. I assume that they gave it some extra "oomph" since it's such an iconic creature and traditionally assumed to be an end boss kind of monster. Your idea could work, but alternatively, you could just throw a lower CR dragon at the fighter.

[Hazzardevil]

I belive that for the Point buy, go more like this.

10 point buy for the tier 1 casters.
20 for tier 2,
32 for tier 3,
36 for tier 4,
44 for tier 5,

It really limits tier 1 casters since they have to consider are they willing to sacrifice low level survivability for low term casting.

[Zale]

10 point buy? :smallconfused:

[Big Fau]

10 point buy? :smallconfused:

You get a 14, a 12, and nothing else. AKA: Play a Druid.


Or start with Warblade, then take caster levels.

[Zale]

At that point, you might as well make it so a hungry mindflayer appears every time you cast a spell. :smalltongue:

[TroubleBrewing]

At that point, you might as well make it so a hungry mindflayer appears every time you cast a spell. :smalltongue:

And if you've played a Druid, as was suggested, your Int is an 8.

The Mindflayer should go snack on the Warblade or the Rogue, if you remain unobtrusive.

[Tvtyrant]

At that point, you might as well make it so a hungry mindflayer appears every time you cast a spell. :smalltongue:

The mighty Banflayers always creep up on Tuesdays.

[Mastikator]

At that point, you might as well make it so a hungry mindflayer appears every time you cast a spell. :smalltongue:

What, a free encounter you can anticipate?
"I go into the middle of a scorching hot desert wearing a lead helmet, draw my heavy crossbow and cast true strike" :smalltongue:

[Zale]

And if you've played a Druid, as was suggested, your Int is an 8.

The Mindflayer should go snack on the Warblade or the Rogue, if you remain unobtrusive.


Quite frankly, I think most people would pull a V at that moment.

http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx249/Zale13/V.jpg

[RebelRogue]

I belive that for the Point buy, go more like this.

10 point buy for the tier 1 casters.
20 for tier 2,
32 for tier 3,
36 for tier 4,
44 for tier 5,

It really limits tier 1 casters since they have to consider are they willing to sacrifice low level survivability for low term casting.
How does multiclassing interfere with those rules? Otherwise I think I'd take a level in fighter and then multiclass into wizard :smallwink:

[Lans]

A 5-10% experience penalty per tier?

[Zale]

Well, from what I've gathered, the main reason Tier ones are Tier one is lots of spells known which allows for a great deal of versatility.

Why not just make it really difficult to get new spells/add a total number they cannot exceed?

[Greenish]

Well, from what I've gathered, the main reason Tier ones are Tier one is lots of spells known which allows for a great deal of versatility.

Why not just make it really difficult to get new spells/add a total number they cannot exceed?Yeah, that'd be tier 2, but then most tier 1 classes already have tier 2 analogues, so you might as well use those.

[Zale]

Well, even if Wizards and <Insert other caster class here> were on the same level, you may choose one over the other for fluff reasons..

[Greenish]

Well, even if Wizards and <Insert other caster class here> were on the same level, you may choose one over the other for fluff reasons..Ah yes, the great fluff difference between a spontaneous cleric and a cleric who just happens to have a limited amount of spells known. :smallamused:

[Zale]

Fluffy Clerics FTW!



Though, I don't see why you couldn't make a cleric gain one new spell automatically, then force them to learn the rest.

Maybe by sacrificing gold/exp per spell level and spending a few days chanting and praying..

[Big Fau]

A 5-10% experience penalty per tier?

That would just make high-tiers better, actually.


The lower your level, the faster you gain XP. The penalty would just make them take more XP to gain the level they want, but they'd get more mileage out of the XP overall.

[Godskook]

Houseruling 3.5 is a fun endevour, but step 1 is KNOWING WHY IT IS BROKE. You so an interest in figuring out why it is broke, but you haven't quite actually figured it out yet. For instance:

You say you want the fighter and the dragon to go toe-to-toe, but you're also a 'fan' of the linear fighter and quadratic wizard. Guess what? The dragon is at least quadratic, too.

What you need to do, if you want to embrace 'balance' in D&D is either give the fighter-types quadratic growth(like in ToB, psychic warrior, Totemist, etc), or take away a lot of the caster's power(Warmage, Healer, Beguiler, Dread Necro).

Now, some good reading for you:
-Test of Spite(Ban list in particular) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150821)
-Jaronk's Tier list (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0)