Optimization challenge: Core rules only Monk

[Particle_Man]

3.5 monk (no multi-classing, no prestige classes).

PHB, MM, DMG only. MM races ok, but no races above LA +0.

Yes, it is pathetically weak. If it helps, pretend that someone will kill your loved ones unless you play this character, and optimize it as best you can.

[Zaq]

In before partially charged wands.

[holywhippet]

Starting level? Point buy?

The main thing to angle for is an item that lets you cast mage armor once or twice a day since it works nicely for monks.

[Eldariel]

What's there to optimize? Play Human/Half-Orc/somesuch, take Improved Natural Attack, Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike and all the tactical feats you qualify for; maximize one of Str (Trip-focus), Dex (Weapon Finesse) or Wis (Stunning Fist) and pray the game starts a bit into the game.

Try to get Mage Armor from some source (hour/level; get a Pearl of Power to some caster or something), Greater Magic Fang/Weapon for your unarmed strikes (again, get Pearl for a party caster) and just work from there. Alternatively, go the best Monk: Monk 1/Druid 19.

[holywhippet]

What's there to optimize? Play Human/Half-Orc/somesuch, take Improved Natural Attack, Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike and all the tactical feats you qualify for; maximize one of Str (Trip-focus), Dex (Weapon Finesse) or Wis (Stunning Fist) and pray the game starts a bit into the game.

Try to get Mage Armor from some source (hour/level; get a Pearl of Power to some caster or something), Greater Magic Fang/Weapon for your unarmed strikes (again, get Pearl for a party caster) and just work from there. Alternatively, go the best Monk: Monk 1/Druid 19.

Monk/druid is out - it's no multiclassing.

Can you actually take monster feats as a PC?

[MeeposFire]

If you qualify yes. In fact it has been spelled out many times that imp natural attack can be used by a monk (in the PHB2 it is a recommended feat),

[Keld Denar]

You can take monstrous feats as a PC, yes.

I'd suggest Dwarf monk. Bonus to Con (everyone needs Con), penalty to Cha, your dump stat (barring cross-class ranks in UMD + partially charged wands), and the movement penalty becomes less and less of an issue after about level 4. The +2 to all saves vs spells helps your already strong saves and combines well with Evasion, and Darkvision never hurt anyone.

[tyckspoon]

Can you actually take monster feats as a PC?

Blarg. Hokay. Printed in the Monster Manual does not mean monster only. If you satisfy the Prerequisites line of the feat, and you satisfy any general conditions required by the feat's type (such as those associated with [Psionic] and [Epic] feats) then you can take that feat! That's all there is to it! The feats in the Monster Manual are only located there because the majority of PCs will not be able to qualify for them, due to such things as not having wings, not being Huge, not having multiple natural weapons, and not having three or more arms (personally, I would have put Improved Natural Attack in the PHB, since 2 of the Core classes can use it with raw class features and anything with shapechanging spells could potentially use it with those forms.)

[Tvtyrant]

Are Alternate Class Features allowed? Like Denying Stance Monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les) or the cruddy DR Monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monk)? If so there are slightly better options.

[Claudius Maximus]

Those aren't core so I don't think so.

[Tvtyrant]

But they are free for all to bask in! Well, if not then I suggest getting size boosting items and going the grapple route; you get to use your unarmed strikes if you grapple the enemy so you won't take a damage hit. Improved Grapple + Size Boosts are always good. You could even get an item of Animal Shapes (to turn into a Leopard) and have your Druid cast Animal Growth on you in the higher levels. You would get a strength, DR and AC boost and get pounce.

[holywhippet]

One trick I've been advised of for monks (once you get enough levels) is to use spring attack to move into range, attack, then get back out of range. Works well for the monk since they have all that extra move speed.

Note also that flurry of blows works with monk weapons like shurikens and sai. Since sai have a range increment you could just throw sai at your enemy rather then engage them.

[Tvtyrant]

One trick I've been advised of for monks (once you get enough levels) is to use spring attack to move into range, attack, then get back out of range. Works well for the monk since they have all that extra move speed.

Note also that flurry of blows works with monk weapons like shurikens and sai. Since sai have a range increment you could just throw sai at your enemy rather then engage them.

Even more important is that you get your full strength bonus on shuriken, so you can full attack every round without having to mix it up. Then you want to focus on Strength and get some Brutal Throw type feat. (Also note that Fire Arrow works on Shuriken, so you can add 1d6 fire to all of your shuriken).

[Particle_Man]

and all the tactical feats you qualify for

I don't think there are any tactical feats in the PHB, DMG or MM.

[Particle_Man]

Then you want to focus on Strength and get some Brutal Throw type feat.

Not core, alas.

[Tvtyrant]

So no ACFs either? Alright, take Improved Trip and Improved Grapple and Improved Natural Attack. That is basically all you can do. Well, you could go Bard 1/Monk-/Dragon Disciple 2 for Claws and a Bite, but you aren't multiclassing so it doesn't matter.

[Veyr]

Yeah, you pretty much just grab Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, and Improved Trip as your bonus feats, grab INA and, I dunno, Improved Initiative on your other feats. Maybe Ability Focus to improve Stunning Fist? Hell, you might even grab another one in Quivering Palm; sure, it's terrible and investing in a 1/week feature seems like a bad plan, but your options here are really limited, and if you have this feature, it might as well work that once per week you actually use it. Of course, +2 is not really going to do enough to make it work particularly regularly, but whatever.

Weapon Focus... eh, probably just because there's nothing else worth taking. Even Core-only I don't think Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack is a good choice; Dodge is weak, Mobility is worse, and Spring Attack only lets you get one attack as a class whose entire schtick is attacking a lot. There's really not much to say on the matter. You could do it, but I don't think it's a good idea.

I guess you could try the Shuriken route; that has a lot of benefits (well, mostly the one: you can full-attack even when things aren't conveniently right next to you). Quick Draw, Point-blank Shot, Far Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot all become necessary; Manyshot's good but it seems like a waste since it doesn't synergize with Flurry. Gotta say, though, this is going to be ugly at low levels: you're taking a penalty to attack in order to Flurry, and anything outside of melee range is going to be giving you additional Range penalties until you get Far Shot. Even with Far Shot, a 20 ft. Range Increment does not give you a a terribly large area in which you can avoid taking still more penalties...


I think what I would actually do is take the bonus feats mentioned above, and play as a (really weak) tripper early, and use my normal feats to build up the Shuriken option so that I can Flurry more often as I get higher in level. I can't really see very many other options here...

[Tvtyrant]

The shuriken technique only really works if you can get strength to hit for the shuriken; otherwise your getting to hits like +3 at level 20 or doing 1d2+1d6 damage a hit. With strength to hit you can get it up to +23/+23/+23/+23/+18/+13 with 1d2+1d6+10x6.

[Bang!]

Leadership abuse is for winners.

[Claudius Maximus]

It's not good at all but I kind of like the shuriken flurry idea. You can actually stack Flurry, TWF, and Rapid Shot for +11/+11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1/+1. Good luck hitting a damn thing with that at 20th though.

[MeeposFire]

Well you could go all in on dex and get that attack bonus up and use your mobility to try and stay alive but even so what are you going to do abut DR? Shurikens get expensive and in core only there is no good way of dealing with all the DR types in a reasonable manner.

[Teron]

One trick I've been advised of for monks (once you get enough levels) is to use spring attack to move into range, attack, then get back out of range. Works well for the monk since they have all that extra move speed.
This is a terrible plan, especially for a character meant to fight alongside others (like most PCs). A single attack from a monk deals negligible damage, and your allies won't be too thrilled that you're sacrificing most of your damage output to protect yourself. And that's assuming it actually does protect you, which requires not only that your opponents' speed+reach be lower than yours, but that they be unable to hurt you significantly with a ranged attack, charge or readied action.

[Bang!]

Monks have Diplomacy, right? That's abusable.

[Killer Angel]

This is a terrible plan, especially for a character meant to fight alongside others (like most PCs). A single attack from a monk deals negligible damage, and your allies won't be too thrilled that you're sacrificing most of your damage output to protect yourself. And that's assuming it actually does protect you, which requires not only that your opponents' speed+reach be lower than yours, but that they be unable to hurt you significantly with a ranged attack, charge or readied action.

Yep. And the monk fails in giving the +2 bonus for flanking, to the power attack meleers.
Basically, it would mean to play an annoying fly.


Leadership abuse is for winners.

Also Diplomacy, but I don't think it's the point of the thread... :smalltongue:

(edit: ninja'd on diplomacy...)

[Greenish]

Optimizing core-only monk is mainly just WBLmancy.

[kestrel404]

OK, so I must take all my levels as monk levels, and I'm only allowed to choose races and feats from core.

Young Red Dragon Monk 1. That's a 20th level build. Use your natural attacks progression when you flurry and you get more attacks than a Monk 20. You also get 1st level sorceror casting, but more importantly you have access to the full Sorceror spell list for using wands.

[Greenish]

OK, so I must take all my levels as monk levels, and I'm only allowed to choose races and feats from core.And you have to use +0 LA race, as per OP. :smallamused:

[Eldariel]

I don't think there are any tactical feats in the PHB, DMG or MM.

I referred to feats enabling combat styles like Improved Grapple, Trip, Stunning Fist, etc. And yeah, Dwarf is a decent choice. The movement speed is gonna suck on low levels but c'est la vie.

[TroubleBrewing]

In core-only, there literally is not a worse choice for a PC class than the Monk. Honestly.

Bard is really your only Tier 3; Rogue, Barbarian, and Ranger are solid Tier 4; Sorcerer, Wizard, Cleric, and Druid are all Tier 1 or 2; Paladin and Fighter are Tier 5, but they're higher up than the Monk.

Paladin gets a mount and some spells, while the Fighter has at least three viable options in Core (Mounted, Archery, or Tripper). Monk gets... Stunning Fist? Plus some other, sundry, always-useful-if-you-have-a-slot feats, like Improved Initiative.

Or Toughness. Pelor knows you'll need it for all the times you'll be wishing you could cut yourself with the Fighter's Guisarme (IF ONLY YOU WERE PROFICIENT WITH IT) but just end up punching yourself to sleep instead.

[Thespianus]

If you qualify yes. In fact it has been spelled out many times that imp natural attack can be used by a monk (in the PHB2 it is a recommended feat),

Recommended in a Starter Package-build, yes. I.e a 1st level character.

How that first level character could take a Feat that requires a BAB of 4 is a mystery. ;)

[Eldariel]

Recommended in a Starter Package-build, yes. I.e a 1st level character.

How that first level character could take a Feat that requires a BAB of 4 is a mystery. ;)

It's magic!

[TroubleBrewing]

Uh... Early entry shenanigans? :smalltongue:

I don't actually know of any that give better BAB than HD... But it's safe to say people have tried.

EDIT: gah! Ninja'd by magic!

[Particle_Man]

In core-only, there literally is not a worse choice for a class than the Monk. Honestly.

Not even Commoner?

[TroubleBrewing]

Sigh.

Now I gotta go edit my post to say "PC class". Is that what you wanted? Because that's what you've done. :smallannoyed:

[Ceaon]

If you play a lv 20 commoner, at least you get some street cred.
Real men play commoners.

Also, chicken-infested.

[Taelas]

Chicken-infested is decidedly not core.

[Telonius]

How about this idea...

Wood Elf
28 point buy
STR 18 ->20 (24 at level 20)
DEX 10 ->12
CON 12->10
INT 8->6
WIS 14 (15 at level 20)
CHA 8

1 Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Power Attack
2 Deflect Arrows
3 Weapon Focus (Quarterstaff)
4 STR +1
6 Improved Trip, Blind-Fight
8 STR +1
9 Ability Focus (Stunning Fist)
12 Improved Critical (Quarterstaff), STR +1
15 Improved Natural Attack
16 STR +1
18 Run? Toughness? Does it matter at this point?
20 WIS +1

Skills: Max out UMD, get Tumble to +14.

Equipment:
+1 Speed Ki Focus Wounding Quarterstaff (= a +7 weapon). Enchant one end only. (Add on other enhancements if you can afford them - Ghost Touch would be my first choice).
As many bonuses to Strength, Wisdom, and Dex as you can afford. Bracers of armor. Any other useful doodads in the magic items list.

Without magic items (other than the Q'staff):
Attack: 15 (BAB) + 7 (STR) +1 (Magic) + 1 (focus) = 24
Damage: 1d6 + 7 (STR) + 1 (magic) = 1d6+8, 19-20x2
Full attack: +24/+24/+24/+24/+19/+14

Theory: Think of the Wounding weapon as essentially giving bonus damage once every two hits. The Monk's unarmed strike can't do this, so don't focus on it except as "another option in case something's immune to wounding." Wield the staff two-handed, and use only the enchanted end. You still have unarmed strike available to you (kick) if you need it. Speed doesn't require you to have a friendly Wizard with Haste; Ki Focus allows you to make a Stunning Fist attack with the Quarterstaff as part of a flurry. Pump Strength, to help on attacks and trip attempts; also removes the need for spending a feat on Weapon Finesse.

You'll still need either a friendly caster or a bunch of partially charged wands etc. in order to get the most out of this. The build as-is lacks a means of flight, a way to Enlarge Person, etc. Still, it's probably about as versatile and powerful as a Monk's going to get just using Core and not getting into the nitty-gritty of WBL.

Optional: at level 17, take a sabbatical for as many years as it takes you to get to Venerable. (You are an Elf, so this might take a while - why not take up a hobby in the meantime?) +3 to all mental stats, at no loss to physical.

EDIT: I always forget that the Wood Elf stats are in addition to standard elf adjustments, not instead of ... switched the starting Dex and Con, so it turns out the same as it was.

[Ceaon]

Chicken-infested is decidedly not core.

Oh, right. So we're back at the real men thing then.

[Aharon]

Uh... Early entry shenanigans? :smalltongue:

I don't actually know of any that give better BAB than HD... But it's safe to say people have tried.

EDIT: gah! Ninja'd by magic!

There actually is such a trick, but it's rather TO, as it is totally obvious that it's not RAI:

Linky (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4804.0).

[Particle_Man]

Optional: at level 17, take a sabbatical for as many years as it takes you to get to Venerable. (You are an Elf, so this might take a while - why not take up a hobby in the meantime?) +3 to all mental stats, at no loss to physical.

Wait, I am missing something here. How does one avoid a loss to the physical stats from aging?

But I like the character concept! Bravo to the staff wielder!

Wait, can you deflect arrows if you are wielding a 2-H weapon?

[Telonius]

Wait, I am missing something here. How does one avoid a loss to the physical stats from aging?

But I like the character concept! Bravo to the staff wielder!

To ignore the stat loss, all you have to do is take 17 levels of Monk.


Timeless Body (Ex)

Upon attaining 17th level, a monk no longer takes penalties to her ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that she has already taken, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the monk still dies of old age when her time is up.

(Druid gets it two levels earlier, of course.)

For Deflect Arrows ... well, it's possible. Since the Q'staff is ki focus, you might be able to weasel out of it by considering the feat as a result of the Monk's ki, and deflect it with the staff.

[Particle_Man]

Sigh.

Now I gotta go edit my post to say "PC class". Is that what you wanted? Because that's what you've done. :smallannoyed:

What can I say, these boards recently had an "optimize my commoner" thread. :)

[tyckspoon]

How about this idea...
Without magic items (other than the Q'staff):
Attack: 15 (BAB) + 7 (STR) +1 (Magic) + 1 (focus) = 24
Damage: 1d6 + 10 (1.5*str) + 1 (magic) = 1d6+11, 19-20x2
Full attack: +24/+24/+24/+24/+19/+14


One rules correction: You specifically always get 1x Str damage when Flurrying, regardless of how you wield the weapon. Not too big a deal for this since the idea is to rapidly stack on-hit effects from the weapon instead of dealing raw HP numbers, but it builds up (it's also relatively cheap to fix with a Frost enhancement or something.)

[Greenish]

For Deflect Arrows ... well, it's possible. Since the Q'staff is ki focus, you might be able to weasel out of it by considering the feat as a result of the Monk's ki, and deflect it with the staff.Or wield the staff in one hand.

[Telonius]

Hm, so it does. Fixed! You'd still get 2x return on Power Attack with it, correct?

[HalfDragonCube]

If you play a lv 20 commoner, at least you get some street cred.
Real men play commoners.

Also, chicken-infested.

Chicken-infested?:smallconfused:

Sounds brilliant, as soon as I found out what it is, all of my characters are having it.

[RaginChangeling]

Chicken-infested?:smallconfused:

Sounds brilliant, as soon as I found out what it is, all of my characters are having it.

Its a Commoner-only flaw that was printed as an April Fool's joke. It gives you a fifty percent chance to pull out a chicken instead of whatever you were reaching for. Has the hilarious side effect of enabling you to fill the world with infinite chickens in less than six seconds, Spell component pouches never run out of stuff to pull from them and drawing components is a free actions.

[Taelas]

Which gives you nigh-infinite wealth--chickens are listed as trade goods; 2 cp per chicken, which timed with nigh-infinity...

Yeah. All kinds of shenanigans become available.

[Veyr]

Bard is really your only Tier 3
I'm dubious about a Core-only Bard being Tier-3. Without Dragonfire Inspiration, Badge of Valor, Words of Creation, or Inspirational Boost, you're looking at a very low bonus to attack and damage. At level 1, +1/+1 to everyone's quite solid, but it really gets pretty weak from there.

The spell list is also lacking without Spell Compendium — Glibness is an excellent spell, but pretty much everything else is quite a bit late compared even to Beguiler, who has a relatively similar list and massively more spells known/spells per day.

Fascinate and Suggestion are neat tricks but not power-houses.

So without Diplomacy abuse, a Core-only Bard doesn't really seem to have quite a Tier-3 level of power. Maybe a low-ish Tier 3.

[mabriss lethe]

Since core-only monk is a trap... max out Craft: Trapmaking.

Due to the loose definition of a trap(specifically its portability)...This is actually not a bad plan.

[Telonius]

Just make sure he has no ranks in balance, to better model the reality. :smallbiggrin:

It is an awful class, but it's also possible to try to wring as much out of the trap as possible (without resorting to things that everyone can use, like Dust of Sneezing, Candle of Invocation loops, and the like).

[Sr.medusa]

Bah, ignore the Wis things (stunning, quivering palm, etc), max STR, like Ork monk, and kick the faces of everything you see, Imporved Unarmed Strike and Flurry of Pain. Alternatively put ranks in cross-class UMD (skill focus, magical aptitude) and grab a wand of polymorph. Be a trent and... you know, monk smash! monk destroys!

[mabriss lethe]

Your best bet is probably to go for a tripper build. You won't be as good as you *can* be as a core tripper. But it's probably your best option as a monk. Pick up stunning fist, combat reflexes, and Improved trip as your bonus feats. When you flurry, hit with a stunning fist first and then follow up with a trip (then smack them again on a successful trip with a better chances to hit.) When people threaten you, Use your AoOs to trip some more, then smack them.

Low levels, make sure you have a Kama, since it's a trip weapon. It'll serve you as a makeshift surrogate until you get Imp. Trip at 6. At level 11, poison everything and everyone you fight. You're immune to poison now.

.....

[Lans]

I'm dubious about a Core-only Bard being Tier-3. Without Dragonfire Inspiration, Badge of Valor, Words of Creation, or Inspirational Boost, you're looking at a very low bonus to attack and damage. At level 1, +1/+1 to everyone's quite solid, but it really gets pretty weak from there.

The spell list is also lacking without Spell Compendium — Glibness is an excellent spell, but pretty much everything else is quite a bit late compared even to Beguiler, who has a relatively similar list and massively more spells known/spells per day.

Fascinate and Suggestion are neat tricks but not power-houses.

So without Diplomacy abuse, a Core-only Bard doesn't really seem to have quite a Tier-3 level of power. Maybe a low-ish Tier 3.
You should take a closer look at the spell list. It gets some nice spells early, and a couple things like Alterself when the sorcerer would get them. Might be lower tier 3 still.

[TroubleBrewing]

Without the usual Bard tricks, it definitely loses a ton of adaptability and sheer power, sure.

I certainly wouldn't lower it to Tier 4, however. I would agree with the assessment that it comes in at the low end of Tier 3.

[Telonius]

So no actual builds proffered, other than mine? I know I'm not nearly the best optimizer on the boards, there's gotta be something better than what I've suggested.

[Eldariel]

So no actual builds proffered, other than mine? I know I'm not nearly the best optimizer on the boards, there's gotta be something better than what I've suggested.

Human/Dwarf Monk 20 (depends on your score; human for skillz, Dwarf for conz)

Str max
Dex = Wis
Con 14+
Int/Cha dump

1. Stunning Fist, Improved Initiative
2. Combat Reflexes
3. Weapon Focus: UA Strike
6. Improved Trip, Improved Natural Attack: UA Strike
9. Ability Focus: Stunning Fist
12. Improved Grapple
15. Deflect Arrows
18. EWP: Spiked Chin (sic)

The basic idea, hit everything you can, stun whenever you can, get AoOs whenever you can, carry a reach weapon around wherever you can, always use your Unarmed Strikes on your own turn; only have tripping reach weapon for AoOs (Spiked Chin is a good option; may have something to do with Beardfist). Mite well take it earlier. Then you use your massive (lol) attack run to break faces with your massive (lol) unarmed damage. On tripped opponents. With Ability Focused Stunning Fist. Max Hide/Move Silently and just stay hidden whenever terrain allows. Obv Tumble, etc. Pick up a Tower Shield for when it's not applicable and stay in total cover 110% of the time.

Deflect Arrows and ram Leadership on level 6 if the feat is allowed; suddenly you fail 100% less with a Wizard to buff you. Oh, and pray to whatever deities you worship the party has a Wizard for Mage Armor and Greater Magic Weapon. Hell, if your DM is feeling generous, hire one.


Now you totally do epic damage with your epicz fists that have real high base die (which is why you needz Enlarg Przon for even moar) and on level 20 you can be Polymorphed into Outsider-forms (like Horned Devil!) when others are fooling around with Shapechange (awzum!) and on level 17 you go sit on a fast time plane and contemplate life and get free boniz Wis (and Int and Cha) and...yeah, just invest in that damn equipment.

What you need is basically:
- Anything of Flying (real bad)
- Boots of Speed (extra attack + to hit; movement speed wasted but c'est la vie)
- Cloak of Resist, and stuff of Str, Dex, Wis and Con (just work the slot conflicts somehow; Core is stupid like that), Deflection & Natural Armor.
- Random toys like Cubes of Force and Rods of Cancellation and X of Teleportation and what-have-you.
- Probably some mount. They grant cover.
- Bracers of Armor eventually.
- Competence Ioun Stone
- AC Ioun Stone
- Your tripping weapon toy should prolly be Ghost Touch for obvious reasons.
- Heward's Handy Haversack full of handy stuff.


This gives you like...16/16/16/8/16/6 Dwarf to start off (36 point buy, I know, just roll with it, k?) that ends up at 32 Str/26 Dex/26 Con/12 Int/30 Wis/10 Cha. And liek, he'z alwayz larz so he's actually at 34 Str/24 Dex/26 Con/12 Int/30 Wis/10 Cha. And +5 Greater Magic Weapon. And +8 Bracers and +5 Def and +5 NA. So he haz liek 6d8+17 fistz of fury that attack at liek 15 BAB + 12 Str - 1 Size + 5 Weapon + 1 Weapon Focus + 1 Haste + 1 Competence = +34! So +34/+34/+34/+34/+29/+24. And Tripz for +4 moar.

And liek, his Trip-checks are +21 and stuff, and he threatens like a 20' area or something. And 8 AoOs and so on. And saves are like +26 Ref, +26 Fort, +28 Will. And AC is...I dunno. No idea, to be honest. 10+7 Dex+10 Wis+1 Insight+1 Haste+5 Deflection+5 Natural Armor+8 Armor = 47. Now, it's worth noting that he's pretty much blown his WBL on just numeric boosters but c'est la vie of a Monk.

Oh, and Stunning Fist DC is 32. I suppose that's remotely decent. I mean, not something anything relevant would fail (it'd be immune anyways), but still. And the HP is 253. Oh, and Hide/Move Silently/Tumble are the maxed skills 'cause what the hey, he has no skill points anyways. Guess you'll take those 5 ranks in Balance but that's about it.

In general, adding Intelligent Items, underlings and such to the operation are the most efficient way of making a Monk better tho. Unfortunately, they're also decidedly outside traditional optimization due to the whole "No Real Rules For This ****"-thing and the action economy wreckage.

[Akal Saris]

Sure, here's a core-only build:

LN Orc Monk 20

Stats (32 PB):
Str: 20
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 6
Wis: 14
Cha: 6

Feats:
1: Power Attack
1B: Stunning Fist
2B: Combat reflexes
3: Improved Grapple
6: Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike)
6B: Improved Trip
9: Cleave
12: Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike)
15: Improved Initiative
18: Improved Bull Rush

Quick and dirty build for a monk that specializes in punching people in the face, and can grapple or trip if it looks like a good idea. Given a monk's poor BAB, usually it's best to use trip/grapple when you're moving in to combat, and whenever you have a full attack option its better to flurry.

[Jopustopin]

Is XPH core?

[Claudius Maximus]

(Spiked Chin is a good option; may have something to do with Beardfist).

I think you're thinking of the Giacomo monk there, which famously carried around a nonproficient spiked chain for trips.


Is XPH core?

No.

[The Glyphstone]

Since core-only monk is a trap... max out Craft: Trapmaking.

Due to the loose definition of a trap(specifically its portability)...This is actually not a bad plan.

Then also max out Disguise (cross-class) and dress as a woman.

[Pentachoron]

Then also max out Disguise (cross-class) and dress as a woman.

Glyphstone, you are just my favorite kind of person.


Anyway, I'm not super clear on what is core and isn't. Are there any LA +0 core races that have multiple appendages? It seems like that could come in handy for a monk.

[Urpriest]

Glyphstone, you are just my favorite kind of person.


Anyway, I'm not super clear on what is core and isn't. Are there any LA +0 core races that have multiple appendages? It seems like that could come in handy for a monk.

Core is irrelevant. The OP specifically lists PHB, MM, and DMG only.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

A custom made item of +20 to UMD, cross-ranks in UMD, and a scroll of Shapechange to turn yourself into a Balor.

Or, due to the way UMD is worded to emulate a higher Caster Level, a Solar.

[tyckspoon]

Core is irrelevant. The OP specifically lists PHB, MM, and DMG only.

Which is, coincidentally, what Core means. OGL and the SRD has created a kind of expanded core because it's freely available and easily accessed, but it's not Core.

[Eldariel]

Or, due to the way UMD is worded to emulate a higher Caster Level, a Solar.

That only works with Staves, unfortunately. So get a custom Staff of Shapechange.

[dspeyer]

Optional: at level 17, take a sabbatical for as many years as it takes you to get to Venerable. (You are an Elf, so this might take a while - why not take up a hobby in the meantime?) +3 to all mental stats, at no loss to physical.


Proposed hobby: taunting werebears. Sooner or later that'll get you some physical stat boosts as well. (You could take it up earlier.)

[true_shinken]

Optimizing core-only monk is mainly just WBLmancy.

Pretty much, yeah.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That only works with Staves, unfortunately. So get a custom Staff of Shapechange.

Sure, it's cheaper when you amortize the cost over the number of uses you get.

[HalfDragonCube]

Which gives you nigh-infinite wealth--chickens are listed as trade goods; 2 cp per chicken, which timed with nigh-infinity...

Yeah. All kinds of shenanigans become available.

Wow! Chicken-infested ftw. I think I might use the rebuilding rules to get a level of commoner and that flaw.

[Telonius]

It's pretty cool ... but it would have a few requirements to really max it out. First, you need to have the Quick Draw feat, which a Commoner would get at level 3 (since it requires BAB +1). Second, you need an actual weapon that you're trying to retrieve. A bag full of stones (improvised weapons) would probably work for this - maybe 20 would be "reasonable." You'd need a couple helpers to have readied actions to gather and retrieve the stone bags (as well as herd the chickens away from you). You use a free action to draw a stone, then another free action to drop the stone (or chicken, as necessary). On average, you'd be getting 20 chickens per six seconds. Times 10 is 200 per minute, 12,000 per hour, 96,000 chickens per 8-hour workday. Times 2cp each, 192,000 cp, or 1920 gold per day.

Ideally, you'd have another character there to butcher all the Chickens with the Great Cleave feat. A human Warrior4 could do it. Add in two levels of Aristocrat, give him the Leadership feat to organize the whole operation, and call him Col. Sanders. :smallbiggrin:

[HalfDragonCube]

It's pretty cool ... but it would have a few requirements to really max it out. First, you need to have the Quick Draw feat, which a Commoner would get at level 3 (since it requires BAB +1). Second, you need an actual weapon that you're trying to retrieve. A bag full of stones (improvised weapons) would probably work for this - maybe 20 would be "reasonable." You'd need a couple helpers to have readied actions to gather and retrieve the stone bags (as well as herd the chickens away from you). You use a free action to draw a stone, then another free action to drop the stone (or chicken, as necessary). On average, you'd be getting 20 chickens per six seconds. Times 10 is 200 per minute, 12,000 per hour, 96,000 chickens per 8-hour workday. Times 2cp each, 192,000 cp, or 1920 gold per day.

Ideally, you'd have another character there to butcher all the Chickens with the Great Cleave feat. A human Warrior4 could do it. Add in two levels of Aristocrat, give him the Leadership feat to organize the whole operation, and call him Col. Sanders. :smallbiggrin:

You just need the spell component pouch for it to work.

The eschew materials feat is also needed if you want to cast things like fireball without a flurry of chickens appearing every time.

[faceroll]

But they are free for all to bask in! Well, if not then I suggest getting size boosting items and going the grapple route; you get to use your unarmed strikes if you grapple the enemy so you won't take a damage hit. Improved Grapple + Size Boosts are always good. You could even get an item of Animal Shapes (to turn into a Leopard) and have your Druid cast Animal Growth on you in the higher levels. You would get a strength, DR and AC boost and get pounce.

Big monsters tend to have 2x your HD, and with mediocre BAB, grappling plain sucks vs. many opponents. Heck, even against a fighter of your level, you're going to be losing more grapples than you should, even with polymorph abuse.


One trick I've been advised of for monks (once you get enough levels) is to use spring attack to move into range, attack, then get back out of range. Works well for the monk since they have all that extra move speed.

Note also that flurry of blows works with monk weapons like shurikens and sai. Since sai have a range increment you could just throw sai at your enemy rather then engage them.

That's only worth it if you combine it with stun and trip attacks. If the stun or trip lands, wail on them. If it fails, fall back. You can skirmish with things until the plate wearers get close enough.


I'm dubious about a Core-only Bard being Tier-3. Without Dragonfire Inspiration, Badge of Valor, Words of Creation, or Inspirational Boost, you're looking at a very low bonus to attack and damage. At level 1, +1/+1 to everyone's quite solid, but it really gets pretty weak from there.

The spell list is also lacking without Spell Compendium — Glibness is an excellent spell, but pretty much everything else is quite a bit late compared even to Beguiler, who has a relatively similar list and massively more spells known/spells per day.

Fascinate and Suggestion are neat tricks but not power-houses.

So without Diplomacy abuse, a Core-only Bard doesn't really seem to have quite a Tier-3 level of power. Maybe a low-ish Tier 3.

Getting +1 million damage isn't what makes a bard T3. Anyone can get hundreds of damage on a flying mount, 4 feats, a lance, and a 1st level spell.

[Veyr]

Getting +1 million damage isn't what makes a bard T3. Anyone can get hundreds of damage on a flying mount, 4 feats, a lance, and a 1st level spell.
Right, but their spell list still leaves a lot to be desired without Spell Compendium. Also, investing in Inspire Courage can make for a potent ability, which the Core-only Bard doesn't have the option to do. I realize it's just numbers, but non-Core material is the difference between Inspire Courage being useless, and being amazing. That seems like it ought to affect the Tier, because it's both power and versatility (since without non-Core boosts to it, it's pretty much a meaningless option and that reduces your versatility). It may not be enough to reduce the Bard's Tier, but it definitely moves the Bard within its Tier, at the very least.

[TroubleBrewing]

Again, yeah, the Bard loses some juice.

But it's still weaker than a Sorcerer, and stronger than a Paladin.

Nice and neat, Tier 3.

[Veyr]

I'm not sure I buy the "Paladin (Tier 4) < Bard < Sorcerer (Tier 2)" so Bard must be Tier 3 argument. Bard could simply be a higher-power Tier 4. But I suppose a lower-power Tier 3 probably makes more sense.

[TroubleBrewing]

I actually screwed up on that one; Paladin is actually Tier 5.

In Core, Rogues, Barbarians, and Rangers are Tier 4. Compare them with the Bard: The Rogue and the Barbarian are just better melee types who have a trick (SA and Rage, respectively), and the Ranger is a melee pseudo-skillmonkey. They don't really compare with the only core class who can access Divine and Arcane spells from level 1.

[Tvtyrant]

A core bard can use alter self from level 4, which gives you the ability to become a Trog and get multiattack and three natural attacks, or become a sea humanoid for the ability to take ten on swimming and get swimming movement of 60 ft.

You also get a ton of the best spells such as glitterdust and invisibilty,a lot of skill points, and reasonable melee ability. Personally I would put it into low tier 3 in core, and high tier 3 out of core.

[faceroll]

Right, but their spell list still leaves a lot to be desired without Spell Compendium. Also, investing in Inspire Courage can make for a potent ability, which the Core-only Bard doesn't have the option to do. I realize it's just numbers, but non-Core material is the difference between Inspire Courage being useless, and being amazing. That seems like it ought to affect the Tier, because it's both power and versatility (since without non-Core boosts to it, it's pretty much a meaningless option and that reduces your versatility). It may not be enough to reduce the Bard's Tier, but it definitely moves the Bard within its Tier, at the very least.

The bard gets good skills and skill points, inspire courage effectively gives him a full BAB when it comes to walloping things, as well as having great force multiplication effects, even without cheesing it out. His spells are great- grease, glitterdust, illusions, invis, alter self. He has access to the same great spells that Batman's got, and they're the sort of utility spells that stay useful all game. He also has all the +4 stat buffs, haste, slow, scry, clairvoyance, speak with animals/plants, pyrotechnics, freedom of movement, dimension door, summon monster, shadow walk, shadow conjuration, and dispel magic.

The Bard has access to many of the spells that make Batman wizards so potent, and what separates T4 from the rest- orthogonal solutions to problems.

All those tricks easily put it on par with a swordsage, warblade, or crusader.

[Tvtyrant]

Also, since his casting stat is charisma he gets a huge bonus to UMD. This combined with his spell list makes him a great item user on top of his own abilities; also he can make a Gargantuan Animated Object Adamant Spiked Chain.

[Bang!]

Also, Fascinate/Suggestion is silly and can grind the game to a complete halt, but it's still very potent.

[faceroll]

Also, Fascinate/Suggestion is silly and can grind the game to a complete halt, but it's still very potent.

Fascinate definitely speeds the game way up, as it allows the party to position itself and buff prior to an encounter. A fully buffed part kills with a surprise round seems to kill stuff 2x as fast.

[true_shinken]

I actually screwed up on that one; Paladin is actually Tier 5.
That is something I simply don't buy. Paladins get pretty good spells, like Rhino Rush and Knight's Move. They also get strong mounts, good for action economy shenanigans.
Maybe low tier 4, but I find tier 5 too harsh.

[Tvtyrant]

That is something I simply don't buy. Paladins get pretty good spells, like Rhino Rush and Knight's Move. They also get strong mounts, good for action economy shenanigans.
Maybe low tier 4, but I find tier 5 too harsh.

Yeah, putting a Fighter with casting next to a Fighter without it is probably incorrect. Holy Sword alone is worth more then a feat is.

[Zaq]

They still don't get many good tricks, and the tricks they do get are pretty easy to shut down or make redundant/useless. Just about the only unconditionally nice thing they get is CHA to saves. They're pretty classic T5.

[Taelas]

Paladin and Fighter are both Tier 5. Tier 5s can generally only do one thing and not much else. For both Fighters and Paladins, this is generally bashing things in the face. A Paladin can also cast healing spells, but they do not get enough of them to really serve in that capacity.

Compare them to Rangers, a classic Tier 4. Rangers are semi-skill monkeys as well as front-line combatants. While not quite as good at fighting as either Paladins or Fighters, their skills, spells and animal companions make up for their shortcomings. Even Barbarians, another Tier 4 class, have more skills (and thus more uses) than Paladins or Fighters.

Paladins get the spells and the companion (in the form of their mount), but both of those really only aid them in bashing things in the face harder.

[Zaq]

Paladin and Fighter are both Tier 5. Tier 5s can generally only do one thing and not much else. For both Fighters and Paladins, this is generally bashing things in the face. A Paladin can also cast healing spells, but they do not get enough of them to really serve in that capacity.

Compare them to Rangers, a classic Tier 4. Rangers are semi-skill monkeys as well as front-line combatants. While not quite as good at fighting as either Paladins or Fighters, their skills, spells and animal companions make up for their shortcomings. Even Barbarians, another Tier 4 class, have more skills (and thus more uses) than Paladins or Fighters.

Paladins get the spells and the companion (in the form of their mount), but both of those really only aid them in bashing things in the face harder.

Huh. I always thought of Rangers as being T5 as well. They seem much closer to the Paladin and the Fighter than to the Rogue and the Barbarian, in my mind, since they have skill points, BAB, and pretty much jack-all else. Looking around, though, I can see that I'm in the minority there, so I'm not going to argue the point. Just kind of an interesting observation.

Spoilered for tangent:
Interestingly, both of the times I've entered the Iron Chef Optimization Contest, a single dip in Ranger has been instrumental to my builds working, but that's more because the class has a nice chassis (full BAB, 6 + INT skill points, and 2 good saves? I'll take it) than because I actually like Rangers. Then again, I really dislike Rangers because I've never been certain what archetype they're trying to fill in a fluff sense. Naturey guy who fights with two swords, is really racist, has a weak pet, and has a little bit of not-exactly-amazing magic? What? I understand the "old man of the woods" or "grizzled hunter/tracker" archetype, but the bizarre two-weapon focus (yes, I know archer rangers exist, but you can't downplay the two-weapon ones) and presence of weak magic really throw me off. I'm only too happy to divorce classes from their default fluff, but since I don't like the Ranger's mechanics either . . . not my favorite class. Strictly my opinion, of course.

But yeah, Monks. Maybe you could contribute by using Aid Another a lot? It'd help in the early game, at least, when giving a real character a +2 to hit (or AC, I guess) is probably actually going to be more useful than your Flurry of Misses for 1d8 + 1 damage. Heck, with Tumble to get into a flanking position, a Monk could pretty reliably hand out a +4 to a better meleer with flanking and Aid. Yes, "designated flanking buddy" is weaksauce as hell, but if I had a core-only Monk at my table, I'd feel like he was contributing more by granting the Rogue a +4 to hit (and SA, if the Rogue couldn't get it already) than by actually trying to punch things.

[Taelas]

They are close. Rangers are somewhat low in Tier 4 (the Barbarian is almost as efficient in his one thing as it is possible to be and not that far behind the Ranger when it comes to skills, and the Rogue is far more versatile, with options for practically everything), whereas both the Fighter and the Paladin are very high in Tier 5. It doesn't take much to push either one to Tier 4 (the Dungeoncrasher Fighter is Tier 4, for instance).

The Ranger archetype is influenced a lot by Robin Hood and Aragorn. Neither of whom dual-wielded or had pets. Those particular bits are possibly from Drizzt Do'Urden; a good drow Ranger from Forgotten Realms who has become almost the archetypal D&D Ranger. (Somehow he is the most popular Forgotten Realms character ever, and perhaps even the most popular D&D character period.)

[Veyr]

I'm not convinced of Rangers being Tier 4 — and if they are, I find it hard to put Paladins in Tier 5. The two are quite similar, and overall I think the Paladin gets better features. Favored Enemy is a waste of time, the bonus feats the Paladin gets are both for decidedly sub-optimal fighting styles, and Divine Grace seems better than... pretty much anything the Ranger gets until level 17. I haven't done a thorough comparison of Mount and Animal Companion, or of their spell lists, which obviously influences this a lot, but... I'm skeptical.

[Eldariel]

I'm not convinced of Rangers being Tier 4 — and if they are, I find it hard to put Paladins in Tier 5. The two are quite similar, and overall I think the Paladin gets better features. Favored Enemy is a waste of time, the bonus feats the Paladin gets are both for decidedly sub-optimal fighting styles, and Divine Grace seems better than... pretty much anything the Ranger gets until level 17. I haven't done a thorough comparison of Mount and Animal Companion, or of their spell lists, which obviously influences this a lot, but... I'm skeptical.

Mount and Ranger AC are about the same (both pretty weak far as anything combat goes, but serve as scouts, flankers and obviously mounts; Ranger has better flying options tho).

Ranger's biggest advantages are obviously the massive skills they get which allows them to do a whole lot more than Paladins ever will. Getting the free archery tree (it's actually quite good; not as a focus, but as an option) is also quite solid; saves you a feat in PBS to get Rapid Shot straight and the other two are nice extras, if nothing major. Ranger still makes for a solid two-hander mounted charger.

Ranger spells are also somewhat better; the expanded Ranger list with PHBII actually makes Ranger TWF (or THF) and Archery both quite impressive while the Paladin List expansion is far less focused, though it does contain few good charger spells. Ranger-list is by and large stronger tho (in Core, they're both heavily mediocre).


Overall, Ranger is just better rounded. Lesser MAD (basically needs 1 less attribute though they prefer high Dex so this isn't as big an advantage as it could be), awesome skills (for mundane types, skills are actually huge and the difference between 6+Int and 2+Int is massive), few free feats (Paladins are woefully featstarved, especially if going charger; they get literally nothing else) and a more versatile spell list. Overall, Rangers are just plain more equipped to handle a wider variety of scenarios than Paladins, which is approximately what the tier rankings try to measure.

[Veyr]

Hmm... I suppose I'll buy that.

[MeeposFire]

Remember the difference between a high tier 5 and a low tier 4 will be relatively small. Less than a stock tier 4 compared to a tier 5 probably. It is basically a question of versatility and rangers have that over paladins and fighters which all have similar offensive profiles in quality. Though personally I think it is unfair to separate the fighter class like that. The only other classes that have their stuff separated are things that are only online (as in the content that causes the change) and one from unearthed arcana. I mean should we split up the barbarian based on a class feature that gives pounce? I mean outside of that and two skill points it is about equal to a fighter.

[true_shinken]

Ranger spells are also somewhat better; the expanded Ranger list with PHBII actually makes Ranger TWF (or THF) and Archery both quite impressive while the Paladin List expansion is far less focused, though it does contain few good charger spells. Ranger-list is by and large stronger tho (in Core, they're both heavily mediocre).

This is where I disagree. Paladin has quite the spell list for combat buffing, even though it lacks Ranger's utility spells (though it gets a lot more healing spells).
Surge of Fortune, Rhino Rush and Holy Sword are strong contenders.
Paladin is also stronger on the defensive side, with his aforementioned healing abilities and better saves. The paladin is also good with social skills due to class focus on Charisma.
I have no doubt a core-only Paladin is t5, but with all books allowed (or simply PHB2+Completes+Spell Compendium) I think they catch up to t4 quite easily.
It's a charger (quite good at one thing - dealing damage), with a few utility (healing, an extra flanker, social skills).

[T.G. Oskar]

Actually, and keeping on the tangent (this could make for a wonderful splinter discussion, in fact), the Paladin spell list is pretty good, and can give the Ranger's spell list a run for their money.

At level 1, they get Magic Weapon (not long before Clerics get Greater Magic Weapon, but it helps if they need to enchant any other weapon in their disposal), Divine Favor (a small, yet reasonable boost to attack and damage which works well with charging or crit-fishing), Protection from Evil (formidable anti-Enchantment spell, not to mention a spell that provides a decent deflection AC and resistance bonus to saves), and Lesser Restoration (a bit later than a Cleric, but it allows for cheap ability damage restoration if using Wands for it). Bless Weapon, their only unique spell at that level, works very nice for DR bypassing and it also has a decent critical rider effect.

At level 2, they get three boosts to scores before the Cleric gets the Mass version of them, plus Resist Energy (always a nice spell to have) and Shield Other (classic defensive skill). That's more than half the spells in that level.

At level 3, they get a decent group of spells in Magic Circle against (Chaos/Evil), Dispel Magic (although I admit too late when the Cleric and Wizard already get their Greater version), Greater Magic Weapon (perfect for cheap enhancements to your weapons), and Heal Mount (for your mount, obviously). Prayer is gained a bit too late, but since by the moment you cast it the Cleric probably has gone with other bonuses, it provides a reasonable boost.

At level 4 you get some of the best Paladin spells around. Holy Sword is nothing to chafe at, as making a +5 Holy weapon out of anything while ALSO providing a Magic Circle effect for free definitely works well for 14th-15th level. Death Ward is a phenomenal protective spell, while Break Enchantment is a decent spell for whenever you need to break curses and whatnot. Dispel Evil won't be as strong as a Cleric's will, but it's a very nice utility spell to have (works like Shield of Faith, Break Enchantment and Dismissal with one spell), and Restoration also provides a very good method of healing ability damage.

Also, don't forget what you can do with wands. Paladins can cast from wands at 1st level, so they can work well with a wand of CLW if there's no Cleric at hand, they can create and work with cheaper wands of Lesser Restoration, and they can work with most of the wands and scrolls of specialized healing magic (Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Remove Fear, Neutralize Poison, etc.)

Compare to Ranger, which has:
At first level, Rangers get Resist Energy (very early on, a definite plus against Pallies), Summon Nature's Ally I (in case they need another scout or a temporary flanker), Longstrider (for decent movement, but by that moment the Wizard gets Haste so it's much like Paladins with Greater Magic Weapon), and probably Entangle (to set up a trap).

At 2nd level, Cat's Grace and Barkskin are probably the best spells at the level. Resist Energy is much better than Protection from Energy, and Wind Wall is formidable but it cramps archery-style Rangers. Bear's Endurance seems a bit lost on a class that will have Constitution as a secondary or tertiary score (after Strength and Dex), SNA II at least allows you to work with a hippogriff, and the trap spells require a high Wisdom to work out.

At 3rd level, they get very few useful spells IMO. Command Plants is nice if you're on a forest but not much if you're on a place lacking vegetation, Greater Magic Fang only works if you have a dependable animal companion (which you don't, unlike the Paladin's mount), and probably Plant Growth to set up a barricade or provide extra vegetation for other spells.

4th level has Summon Nature's Ally IV, which means only one thing: Rangers can summon Unicorns, thus allowing for the best healing around. Also, Freedom of Movement which makes you invulnerable to just about any trap around, and probably Animal Growth if you have a Druid pal, two animal companions and a lot of summoned animals around; else, it's a bit wasted.

In comparison, the Paladin and the Ranger aren't so different (in Core) from each other, but while the Ranger has some shining spells early on (Barkskin, Resist Energy, Summon Nature's Ally), the Paladin has more complex spells later on (Dispel Evil, Holy Sword, Magic Circle against X, Mark of Justice). So I would say the core Paladin edges a bit the core Ranger in terms of spellcasting, but what makes it higher in terms of tier is the access to skills and feats.

I mean, consider the following: the Paladin has only a few skills, is extremely feat-starved, and generally gets everything in the first five levels; it also gets a special move it can use daily, and after 6th level the mount progresses faster. Meanwhile, the Ranger has useful skills (Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Survival), less strain with feats (because of the combat styles), useful late-level class features (Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight allow usefulness of the Hide skill at later levels, which with Darkstalker and a huge Hide skill bonus means you can fight from out of sight) and an iconic class feature that remains active pretty much at all times, but it's much more limited (Paladins get bonuses against Evil creatures, Rangers can add bonuses to a small amount of creatures). In THAT regard, the Ranger edges over the Paladin, but in spellcasting the Paladin edges the Ranger. Of course, OUTSIDE of Core you get stuff like Hunter's Sense and Swift Haste vs. Righteous Aura, which allow them to diversify a bit more in that regard.

Having said all that...I have little to say about the Monk. Most of what I would have said everybody just told it. I'd say get Amulet of Mighty Fists and Bracers of Natural Armor if you want more attack bonuses, damage and AC, but AoMF is really a joke and Bracers of Armor don't provide armor bonuses unless you go outside of Core. In fact, I would suggest Bracers of Archery just so you have a better ranged option (if you're focused on Dex and Wis you can go with a simple longbow; if pumping Strength, then a composite longbow). Since you can have lethal unarmed strikes, you'd lure the enemy into striking from up close, meaning you could flurry with your feet and use your BAB to attack from a distance with your bow, plus answer attacks of opportunity with your fists. Not something particularly monk-y, but at least it's rather cheap.

[Eldariel]

This is where I disagree. Paladin has quite the spell list for combat buffing, even though it lacks Ranger's utility spells (though it gets a lot more healing spells).
Surge of Fortune, Rhino Rush and Holy Sword are strong contenders.
Paladin is also stronger on the defensive side, with his aforementioned healing abilities and better saves. The paladin is also good with social skills due to class focus on Charisma.
I have no doubt a core-only Paladin is t5, but with all books allowed (or simply PHB2+Completes+Spell Compendium) I think they catch up to t4 quite easily.
It's a charger (quite good at one thing - dealing damage), with a few utility (healing, an extra flanker, social skills).

Pally suffers socially unless he invests in good Int tho; 10 Int Pally probably wants to spend ½ of his points on Ride making him kinda short on points to invest in Diplo/K: Reg/K: Everything Else/Sense Motive (ok, seriously, what Pally doesn't have max Sense Motive? One of my biggest gripes with the 3.X skill system)/etc. Charisma only gets you so far, after all.

Even 20 base with all level-ups in one score gets you Charisma that's ½ of what ranks buy you by the end, and on level 1 18 Cha = the amount of bonus you get from the ranks. Sufficient to say, ranks tend to be the primary source of skill bonuses, though of course optimally you synergise the ranks with your high stats for truly impressive skill modifiers.


And yeah, the Paladin has a handful of good charger spells but they're a bit starved with anything else Charging-related (feats, Pounce, etc.). Ranger gets some good Charger-spells complete with Lion's Charge.

PHB2 + Completes + SC Pally gets some really good 4th level spells (though so does Ranger; Foebane suddenly makes Favored Enemy more than just a silly mechanic, and there's some forms of teleportation, stealth and some Polymorph-style buffs), but Ranger really gets the meat already before then. Though Surge of Fortune is Cleric-only...?

Quick list of solid Ranger combat spells off the top of my head:
Level 1
Arrow Mind
Blades of Fire
Guided Shot
Hawkeye
Hunter's Mercy
Rhino's Rush
(Sniper's Shot)

Level 2
Fell the Greatest Foe
Hunter's Eye
Lion's Charge
Swift Haste

Level 3
Arrow Storm
Blade Thirst
Find the Gap

And then a ton of spells for stealth (Camouflage, Land Womb, Remove Scent, etc.), detection (Crown of Clarity, Embrace the Wilds, Listening Lorecall, all that) and general utility. Pally, by comparison, has few handy buffs (Benediction is really good; Divine Favor suffers of Pally's poor caster level something severe), few Cleric Redux spells and some silly offensive spells he can't use efficiently due to low casting stat, late acquisition of the spell and low caster level.

The Pally list isn't useless but I feel it's way less versatile than the Ranger-list, and is mostly subsumed by the Cleric-list (tons of Zone of Truth- and Alignment-style spells that unfortunately usually have to pass checks and saves to do anything) whereas Ranger-list has lots of unique (aside from Archivist) spells that give them a solid edge in combat and the wilderness alike.

[true_shinken]

Pally suffers socially unless he invests in good Int tho; 10 Int Pally probably wants to spend ½ of his points on Ride making him kinda short on points to invest in Diplo/K: Reg/K: Everything Else/Sense Motive (ok, seriously, what Pally doesn't have max Sense Motive? One of my biggest gripes with the 3.X skill system)/etc. Charisma only gets you so far, after all.
Good point. Int 10 plus human (the 'standard' paladin race since, like, ever) gets you enough for max Ride, Sense Motive and Diplomacy. You're still missing on a few concept skills. But as you mentioned, that's more of a problem with the 3.5 skill system than with the Paladin. Even a Rogue craves for skill points.


And yeah, the Paladin has a handful of good charger spells but they're a bit starved with anything else Charging-related (feats, Pounce, etc.). Ranger gets some good Charger-spells complete with Lion's Charge.
Even as a one-hit wonder, the Paladin does respectable damage.
Rhino Rush -> double damage. Find the Gap -> target touch AC.
With Battle Blessing, Find the Gap is a swift action spell that lasts 1 round/level.
So first round is a Spirited Charge with Find the Gap, full Power Attack. That's triple weapon damage, plus six times your level. If it lives, use Rhino Rush. Now that's four times normal weapon damage, plus four times your level. And you end your turn away from your target with Ride-By Attack, preventing full-attacks and the like.


Though Surge of Fortune is Cleric-only...?
Is it? I could swear it was a Paladin spell.


Quick list of solid Ranger combat spells off the top of my head:
I think some of those are not that solid. I'll comment on each.

Blades of Fire
Only if you are Mystic Ranger and get it from level 1. At level 4, using a swift action for this damage sounds kind of weak.


Hunter's Eye
This is an awesome spell for Unseen Seers, but Rangers, with their crappy caster level, can't get much out of it.


Blade Thirst
A poor man's Holy Sword and nothing more.


And then a ton of spells for stealth (Camouflage, Land Womb, Remove Scent, etc.), detection (Crown of Clarity, Embrace the Wilds, Listening Lorecall, all that) and general utility. Pally, by comparison, has few handy buffs (Benediction is really good; Divine Favor suffers of Pally's poor caster level something severe), few Cleric Redux spells and some silly offensive spells he can't use efficiently due to low casting stat, late acquisition of the spell and low caster level.
Agreed.


The Pally list isn't useless but I feel it's way less versatile than the Ranger-list, and is mostly subsumed by the Cleric-list (tons of Zone of Truth- and Alignment-style spells that unfortunately usually have to pass checks and saves to do anything) whereas Ranger-list has lots of unique (aside from Archivist) spells that give them a solid edge in combat and the wilderness alike.
Agreed as well.

[T.G. Oskar]

Alright, guys: since the tangent is becoming very quickly the focus of the discussion, why not speak about it on another thread instead of derailing this one?

Can we shift the discussion here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10859448#post10859448) and keep speaking about how to help the Core monk the OP needs to make?

[BenTheJester]

3.5 monk (no multi-classing, no prestige classes).

PHB, MM, DMG only. MM races ok, but no races above LA +0.

Yes, it is pathetically weak. If it helps, pretend that someone will kill your loved ones unless you play this character, and optimize it as best you can.

That's not a challenge... If you want to make it a challenge, you have to give people some resources.

It's like if I said "here take this rock and this stick and make the best you can with it, without breaking the stick, or sharpening the rock or altering them in any way"

[Tvtyrant]

May I ask which book Rhino Rush is from?