View Full Version : What if Belkar death is actually...
Like star wars style (like how Obi Wan told him that Luke's father "death" is his old personality and became a new personality of darth vader AKA Personality Change)
or like Crysis 2 (his body merged with Shojo's soul like How Prophet soul merged with the main character's nano suit)
Or plain killed (Chopped, Slashed or zapped)
Poppy Appletree
2011-04-21, 12:15 AM
Kill me now.
Though in all honesty, I really liked good Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html). It just irks me that people keep trying to think of loopholes for the "Belkar is going to die for good" prophecy.
EDIT: Also, that bit about Crysis 2 sounds like a spoiler. I could imagine a lot people still haven't played Crysis 2 who might want to, so it's not kind to them to spoil without warning.
PirateLizard
2011-04-21, 02:42 AM
Personally, I'm still wracking my brain for how the Oracle might be screwing with Roy on the matter. One way or another, it's more or less been established he's not below making Bluff checks. Also, his God is a five headed dragon with at least one Chaotic Evil aspect.
luc258
2011-04-21, 05:41 AM
Maybe the Giant will go for some double meaning, e.g. die for good instead of meaning to die permanently to die for a good cause.
ThePhantasm
2011-04-21, 05:46 AM
"Last breath" in this world, "better enjoy his last birthday cake," "shouldn't bother funding his IRA," etc. all point against this personality change interpretation of Belkar's "death."
Seems pretty obvious to me that Belkar's death is going to be a real death.
Dalek-K
2011-04-21, 06:28 AM
The big question is...
Will Roy still go to LG heaven when he dies if he doesn't tell Belkar he may die soon. Belkar is actively fighting for the forces of good (even if he is evil), so not telling him he will die soon is kinda... Dishonorable and dastardly
RecklessFable
2011-04-21, 07:58 AM
The big question is...
Will Roy still go to LG heaven when he dies if he doesn't tell Belkar he may die soon. Belkar is actively fighting for the forces of good (even if he is evil), so not telling him he will die soon is kinda... Dishonorable and dastardly
Bah!
Telling someone some Oracle's predication can do more harm than good. He might just go on a rampage, after all.
As for withholding information, the need to tell someone something isn't a trait of good or evil, the motivation behind doing it is. "I didn't want to spoil your Birthday!" vs. "I was secretly keeping control of you."
The prediction is very clear and I think Belkar will definitely die. Yet there has to be something Roy does not expect, otherwise it would be boring. I think the prophecy is a self-fulfilling one. See, since he knew Belkar is going to die Roy has been thinking of him as already dead. He did not even consider trying to save him or having him raised when he dies, part because he doesn't question the prophecy and part because he dislikes him.
As a result, when Belkar will be in danger, instead of going out of his way to rescue him, as both his alignment and his duty as party leader command, he will let him die,assuming he is doomed anyway.
The Oracle hates both Roy and Belkar and he knew that Roy considered belkar as burden, so he influenced Roy to cause Belkar's death, if only by staying passive. He just had to use that trick that gets good people to do bad things:telling him he is not in control.
MReav
2011-04-21, 10:59 AM
The thing is, we've seen prophecies be really straight forward before. Given the expectations of it being subverted, sometimes the subversion is playing it straight.
And I'm sure the Oracle is looking forward to it.
Dalek-K
2011-04-21, 11:02 AM
Bah!
Telling someone some Oracle's predication can do more harm than good. He might just go on a rampage, after all.
As for withholding information, the need to tell someone something isn't a trait of good or evil, the motivation behind doing it is. "I didn't want to spoil your Birthday!" vs. "I was secretly keeping control of you."
He is holding out information on Belkar... If Belkar KNEW he would die if he stayed on his current path... It could shake him to the core and change him... However Roy is being "evil" by not telling him...
This is one of the things that will be brought up against Roy once he dies again haha
I think Lynn is correct... Roy has an obligation to help Belkar even if he doesn't like the little bugger.
I think Belkar will become a good PC and make a heroic sacrifice or something. This will make Roy & company try to save him but fail. Then he is going to be raised as a deathknight by Xykon and go full-blown team evil. After all, oots is not oots without belkar.
LOTRfan
2011-04-21, 11:13 AM
The big question is...
Will Roy still go to LG heaven when he dies if he doesn't tell Belkar he may die soon. Belkar is actively fighting for the forces of good (even if he is evil), so not telling him he will die soon is kinda... Dishonorable and dastardly
Belkar knew that he was going to die in strip #329, but he wasn't upset or anything (besides the fact that he wanted to kill the Kobold). I doubt Roy telling him now will cause a different reaction now.
MoonCat
2011-04-21, 11:48 AM
Look, I really like Belkar, and don't want him to die either, but it looks like he will. Most of the the loopholes are just implausible and don't even fit with the story. I think it's time we admit Belkar will die, and just hope Rich does it in a satisfying way.
factotum
2011-04-21, 01:13 PM
I think it's time we admit Belkar will die, and just hope Rich does it in a satisfying way.
It's been time to admit that since strip #329, but it hasn't stopped people trying to find a loophole... :smallsigh:
skim172
2011-04-21, 01:38 PM
It's been time to admit that since strip #329, but it hasn't stopped people trying to find a loophole... :smallsigh:
Actually, Belkar doesn't know - you're forgetting that once leaving the valley, you lose all memory except the answer to the question you paid for.
Roy only knows because he was dismissed in his ghost form and didn't go through the memory wipe.
However, the prophecy is clear and unambiguous - Belkar will take his last breath before the end of the year. Unless Belkar evolves another method of processing oxygen, his organs will deteriorate rapidly, leading to a condition that is commonly termed "death."
Of course, this assumes that halflings have human biology. Since they're clearly a genetically distinct species, maybe that's not an assumption we can reasonably make. Perhaps he has gills or absorbs methane.
RunicLGB
2011-04-21, 01:52 PM
Actually, Belkar doesn't know - you're forgetting that once leaving the valley, you lose all memory except the answer to the question you paid for.
Roy only knows because he was dismissed in his ghost form and didn't go through the memory wipe.
However, the prophecy is clear and unambiguous - Belkar will take his last breath before the end of the year. Unless Belkar evolves another method of processing oxygen, his organs will deteriorate rapidly, leading to a condition that is commonly termed "death."
Of course, this assumes that halflings have human biology. Since they're clearly a genetically distinct species, maybe that's not an assumption we can reasonably make. Perhaps he has gills or absorbs methane.
Just because they can't be hanged doesn't mean they don't need to breath, as Belkars incredible sense of smell should indicate.
He's gonna die, and hes gonna stay dead and not breathing. If rich wants to keep the midgit mass murderer around, it will be in spirit or undead form.
Crack theory: I can kinda see him being a ghostish entity working for the order, on a sorta heavenly probation to see if he deserves to get into a good afterlife on merit of his roundabout good deeds (evil actions that had good outcomes). I'd think Shojo would be able to make a good case for him, especially after having smoked all the laws that would prevent the heavens from doing just that.
ThePhantasm
2011-04-21, 02:49 PM
Actually, Belkar doesn't know - you're forgetting that once leaving the valley, you lose all memory except the answer to the question you paid for.
Um, how can you say that factotum is "forgetting" that? I don't see anywhere where factotum suggested that Belkar knows about his death.
M.A.D
2011-04-21, 02:56 PM
He is holding out information on Belkar... If Belkar KNEW he would die if he stayed on his current path... It could shake him to the core and change him... However Roy is being "evil" by not telling him...
This is one of the things that will be brought up against Roy once he dies again haha
I think Lynn is correct... Roy has an obligation to help Belkar even if he doesn't like the little bugger.
As far as Roy knows, Belkar is evil, and the one doing good is Roy and his gang who's keeping the jail lock on him. If he was predicted to die by a kobold who's never wrong then there's no point stopping it.
Further more, history tells us that telling someone a prophecy often being the real cause of that prophecy to come true, so even if Roy does have an obligation to protect Belkar, he could reason that telling Belkar that he's dying would result in Belkar doing something damaging and stupid, thereby getting himself killed. In that sense, not telling Belkar is the right decision
Red XIV
2011-04-21, 03:44 PM
"Last breath" in this world, "better enjoy his last birthday cake," "shouldn't bother funding his IRA," etc. all point against this personality change interpretation of Belkar's "death."
Seems pretty obvious to me that Belkar's death is going to be a real death.
Not to mention, the Oracle's answers may not always be obvious in meaning, but so far they've always been the literal truth. No way that in this case he'd be referring to a figurative death.
SavageWombat
2011-04-21, 03:55 PM
I think the key here is that, so far, Rich hasn't done anything "just for the lulz". Rich doesn't like tricky words and evasive prophecy. If Belkar is going to die, and I think he is, it's for a plot reason. Probably an important one.
So what point could be advanced with a dead PC?
The first (unlikely) one I thought of involved the possibility that Xykon could suck him into the black gem, thus providing PCs with information on the persistance of Dorukan, somehow. I know, absurd.
I think figuring out WHY Belkar will die might be more productive than WHETHER he will die.
MDLv3.2
2011-04-21, 04:01 PM
Well, there is a nice-looking planet inside the rifts where the Snarl is supposed to be located. This appears to be a territory where the Gods have no influence and by inference can't see clearly. If Belkar were to enter the rift and make it to that world, he would pass from the vision of the Gods and, from their POV be dead.
Possible. Even logical. Although I can't imagine the horror of having a Belkar unleashed on an unsuspecting planet.:smalleek:
factotum
2011-04-21, 04:36 PM
Um, how can you say that factotum is "forgetting" that? I don't see anywhere where factotum suggested that Belkar knows about his death.
That confused me a little, too... :smallconfused:
The Anarresti
2011-04-21, 04:44 PM
Am I the only one looking forward to Belkar dying? He's a smug sadistic psychopath and I don't care how funny he can sometimes be, he is really starting to get on my nerves. I just hope he gets straight-up decapitated in the arena.
martianmister
2011-04-21, 05:05 PM
Am I the only one looking forward to Belkar dying?
You are not.
Lurkmoar
2011-04-21, 05:06 PM
You are not.
Seconded. I will be glad to see him go, and hope that he stays gone.
skim172
2011-04-21, 05:28 PM
That confused me a little, too... :smallconfused:
Apparently, the magic gnome who lives in my computer screen and inks the pixels made a mistake, leading me to misinterpret the post.
This is clearly the only possible answer. Either that or I've just dimensionally shifted into an alternate reality. AND I NEED TO GET HOME :smalleek:.
Roy is, indeed, acting morally incorrect where Belkar is concerned. Has been for a very long time.
He should have killed Belkar long ago. The fact that the deva didn't answer Roy's question about murdering Belkar in his sleep with, "No, he doesn't need to be asleep. You can draw your sword, tell him you're going to kill him, and give him as much time to get his weapons ready as you see fit." demonstrates that she and I don't see eye to eye on the relative evil of "killing someone who isn't attacking you at the moment" vs. "keeping Belkar around on Roy's woefully (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html), woefully (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0133.html), inadequate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html) leash."
(And yes, I know Roy wasn't around or even alive for the third one. If he wanted to keep Belkar around he was kind of obligated to make contingency plans for that.)
Dr.Epic
2011-04-21, 05:57 PM
Yeah, Belkar's personality completely changes...into one that no longer needs to breathe. Makes complete sense to me.
SteveDJ
2011-04-21, 06:58 PM
Apparently, the magic gnome who lives in my computer screen and inks the pixels made a mistake, leading me to misinterpret the post.
This is clearly the only possible answer. Either that or I've just dimensionally shifted into an alternate reality. AND I NEED TO GET HOME :smalleek:.
If I might jump in here - I got the feeling that you merely, and accidentally, replied (quoted) factotum's post...
It's been time to admit that since strip #329, but it hasn't stopped people trying to find a loophole... :smallsigh:
...when you meant to reply to LOTRfan's post instead...
Belkar knew that he was going to die in strip #329, but he wasn't upset or anything (besides the fact that he wanted to kill the Kobold). I doubt Roy telling him now will cause a different reaction now.
...? But this is just an outsider's guess. Anyway, doesn't seem to be an issue anymore, anyway.
"Last breath" in this world, "better enjoy his last birthday cake," "shouldn't bother funding his IRA," etc. all point against this personality change interpretation of Belkar's "death."
Seems pretty obvious to me that Belkar's death is going to be a real death.
How about the No.2 (Crysis 2 ending when Alcatraz was merged with Prophet's soul) of my theory? It could be that since his soul (merged with Shojo) is no longer with him, his original soul won't experience the last birthday, IRA funding.
Flame of Anor
2011-04-22, 01:05 AM
Roy is, indeed, acting morally incorrect where Belkar is concerned. Has been for a very long time.
He should have killed Belkar long ago.
Straight-up killing Belkar may--and I emphasize may--have been a good thing to do, but it definitely wasn't the lawful thing to do.
Yeah, Belkar's personality completely changes...into one that no longer needs to breathe. Makes complete sense to me.
This looks like a good post to point people to when their trees are getting epileptic. :smallwink:
Querzis
2011-04-22, 01:47 AM
Am I the only one looking forward to Belkar dying? He's a smug sadistic psychopath and I don't care how funny he can sometimes be, he is really starting to get on my nerves. I just hope he gets straight-up decapitated in the arena.
You are most definitly not. I think he can funny and badass sometimes but I mostly think he could have been cool as a villain. As a 'hero' he just make the entire order looking like total morons for even letting him live. Like Kish said, the only good thing to do would have been to kill him as soon as it became obvious that he was a lot more dangerous and evil then most monsters the Order killed without feeling guilty about it. He better die and stay dead.
Straight-up killing Belkar may--and I emphasize may--have been a good thing to do, but it definitely wasn't the lawful thing to do.
Why not? We're not asking to just murder him in his sleep either here. Just have Roy ask him to have a duel to the death. Hell, Belkar would probably love the idea even if he realize Roy is stronger then him.
Flame of Anor
2011-04-22, 02:25 AM
Why not? We're not asking to just murder him in his sleep either here. Just have Roy ask him to have a duel to the death. Hell, Belkar would probably love the idea even if he realize Roy is stronger then him.
Well, because a Lawful alignment indicates to him that evil people who are not actively threatening/doing evil at the moment should be dealt with by the authorities.
When Roy died, we saw what Lawful Good Heaven looked like. When Belkar dies we'll get a chance to see Chaotic Evil Hell.
In fact, Belkar in Hell could be just as funny as Belkar alive. And there's plot points to be had down there — the consortium of fiends, for one thing. A bunch of angry (dead) black dragons, for another.
RunicLGB
2011-04-22, 02:48 AM
When Roy died, we saw what Lawful Good Heaven looked like. When Belkar dies we'll get a chance to see Chaotic Evil Hell.
In fact, Belkar in Hell could be just as funny as Belkar alive. And there's plot points to be had down there — the consortium of fiends, for one thing. A bunch of angry (dead) black dragons, for another.
A Belkar in hell side quest...Maybe.
I don't think the dragons will have anything to say about him though, he had nothing to do with their deaths. The IFCC though, That I could see belkar getting involved with.
Raistlin82
2011-04-22, 07:49 AM
As a result, when Belkar will be in danger, instead of going out of his way to rescue him, as both his alignment and his duty as party leader command, he will let him die
Come again? A LAWFUL GOOD military leader is the one that doesn't bother trying to save his comrades in arm? :smallfurious:
I agree with those who are doubting Roy's attitude, actually.
Not telling him? Ok. He could have his reasons.
Not caring and not even thinking about helping "because the rules of the Oracle said so"... lame. Maybe he could finally acknowledge his little tin soldier status and switch to LN.
In fact, Belkar in Hell could be just as funny as Belkar alive. And there's plot points to be had down there — the consortium of fiends, for one thing. A bunch of angry (dead) black dragons, for another.
OMG. Now I cannot stop imagining Belkar shouting "I'm a sexy shoeless god of war!"... but in Hell.
Just remove the scratching, slashing, chopping, huge pile of hobgoblins and put a scratching, slashing, chopping, huge pile of black dragons instead. :smallcool:
Why not? We're not asking to just murder him in his sleep either here. Just have Roy ask him to have a duel to the death.
Oh, jeez, again with this??
And how would that be LAWFUL? Do you really think that telling somebody to his face that you're tired of him and you're going to kill him out of dislike is much more LAWFUL (let alone GOOD) than killing him in his sleep? Whether or not he'll be facing you, you're still committing an unprovoked murder.
Even worse, since you acknowledge that Roy is stronger than him, then it's not even "being fair" as much as "telling him just to enjoy the look on his face, the moment the victim realizes he's going to die". Roy is not Ghostface from Scream.
Once again, how many people are out there thinking that being LG means killing whoever we don't think is a "proper citizen"?
Belkar committed 1 (ONE!) crime, in Azure City. The guard was rezzed and Belkar was already heavily punished for it. With prisony (and he's still supposed to finish his jail time, even if he saved the life of their freakin' king!) and with a curse that is very close to torture.
And yes, he killed another person to activate that curse (who got rezzed as well), a freakin' priest of Tiamat. So, arguably his murders went up to 2 (or ZERO, depending on who you ask, since his victims are both alive)... but he got punished already for both of them.
Come again? A LAWFUL GOOD military leader is the one that doesn't bother trying to save his comrades in arm? :smallfurious:
Er maybe I choose my words poorly. I meant to say that both Roy's alignment and duty as leader command him to rescue Belkar .Because letting an ally die is neither good or lawful or decent leadership.
But, because of the Oracle, he will assume Belkar is doomed anyway and he will think there is no point endangering the rest of the party to save him.
I think the Oracle deliberately made sure Roy would remember the prophecy so he would fulfil it. This way he kills two birds with one stone: he gets Belkar killed and possibly screws up Roy's afterlife.
ThePhantasm
2011-04-22, 12:34 PM
The IFCC though, That I could see belkar getting involved with.
I'm increasingly suspecting this will be the case. Didn't the Giant say at some point that Belkar's death would not be the end of his involvement in the strip? Or did I dream that?
I figured he would just become an undead of some sort. They do not breathe and it has been shown (due to the coffee incident in SoD) that at least certain types do not taste food either (thus he would not be able to enjoy any future cakes).
He would be an interesting project for whatshername..Tsukiko or something?
Delorges
2011-04-22, 01:34 PM
The undead-idea is brought up often, but doesn't fit with the "not long for this world" part of the prophecy.
Tyndmyr
2011-04-22, 01:51 PM
I'm increasingly suspecting this will be the case. Didn't the Giant say at some point that Belkar's death would not be the end of his involvement in the strip? Or did I dream that?
I hope not. I enjoyed the Roy's Afterlife thread, and it added a lot to the character. I have high hopes that Belkar's fate will lead to a similar plot thread.
I don't think the dragons will have anything to say about him though, he had nothing to do with their deaths.
Indeed he didn't, but a Belkar in Hell would be in a good position to give the reader a pair of eyes and ears on that ongoing plot. As well, he could chat with or look in on any other Chaotic Evil dead people and/or creatures we've seen (or will see) throughout the strip.
Such as Xykon, for instance. The big X has already declared he became a lich to avoid the Big Fire Below. It stands to reason we may see him finally get sent there... with Belkar waiting?
Querzis
2011-04-22, 02:18 PM
Well, because a Lawful alignment indicates to him that evil people who are not actively threatening/doing evil at the moment should be dealt with by the authorities.
...and Belkar proved to him time and time again that he is almost always threatening/doing evil at the moment. Just take the moment when Belkar tried to kill Elan for XP. That should have been the end of Belkar right there. Doesnt matter if he didnt manage to kill him, he still tried to and the others shoudnt have just intimidated him into backing down, they really should have just defended Elan. When your psycho teamate take out his dagger to kill someone else on the team, the time for talking is just over. He also proved (and thats one of the only things I perfectly agree with Roy regarding Belkar) that almost no prison in the world has a chance to keep him imprisonned so which 'authority' are you talking about? The one thats gonna end up with dozens of dead guards tomorrow?
You really just never know when Belkar is gonna kill a random gnome. Hes always a danger.
Flame of Anor
2011-04-22, 02:30 PM
...and Belkar proved to him time and time again when that he is almost always threatening/doing evil at the moment. Just take the moment when Belkar tried to kill Elan for XP. That should have been the end of Belkar right there. Doesnt matter if he didnt manage to kill him, he still tried to and the others shoudnt have just intimidated him into backing down, they really should have just defended Elan. When your psycho teamate take out his dagger to kill someone else on the team, the time for talking is just over. He also proved (and thats one of the only things I perfectly agree with Roy regarding Belkar) that almost no prison in the world has a chance to keep him imprisonned so which 'authority' are you talking about? The one thats gonna end up with dozens of dead guards tomorrow?
You really just never know when Belkar isnt gonna kill a random gnome. Hes always a danger.
To tell the truth, I think you're right, but I'm pretty sure Roy is just enough used to having him around that it doesn't occur to him.
aart lover
2011-04-22, 02:32 PM
hmmmmm...interesting theory, but i don't think it's any more. the oracle said he should " savor his next birthday cake". why would that matter if he was only going to change in personality? true, Belkar has becomesomewhat less psychotic since the beginning, but honestly a " good Belkar " would just wreck the whole thing, can you imagine how boring it would be? oh and speaking of cake, i'm having the most delicious slice of red velvet cake right now...sucks for you guys that you can't be here having some with me:amused: ...:smalltongue:
skim172
2011-04-22, 02:45 PM
If I might jump in here - I got the feeling that you merely, and accidentally, replied (quoted) factotum's post...
...when you meant to reply to LOTRfan's post instead...
...? But this is just an outsider's guess. Anyway, doesn't seem to be an issue anymore, anyway.
Dang. I guess I fired my magic gnome prematurely.
I'm wondering about the nature of Belkar's death here, since we're talking about a universe where the afterlife is a revolving door. What would be the significance of Belkar's death if he can merely return, through a spell or perhaps some demonic action? For his death to have any impact, it'd have to be a final one, one from which there is no return or communication. I'm wondering if his death will have to do with the Snarl - instead of going to the afterlife, just being utterly and completely obliterated by the manifestation of chaos.
My money is on Belkar dying, because I can see the plot value of that. However, if you want a theory why he might not:
The Oracle's words come from Tiamat, and aren't necessarily true; that particular prophecy might be her threat to Belkar, as in, "I'm gonna get you for killing my Oracle."
There, I said it. I feel dirty now, because I don't believe that is the purpose of the prophecy, but there you go.
Lurkmoar
2011-04-22, 03:15 PM
I could see showing up for V and Belkar, and considering Tiamat, I can imagine the Order wisely not wanting to piss her off.
Boogastreehouse
2011-04-23, 06:02 AM
When Belkar is in Hell, the last three panels in this episode (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0745.html) will take on more significance.
As Rorschach once said:"None of you seem to understand, I'm not locked in here with you, you're locked in here with me!"
ThePhantasm
2011-04-23, 06:08 AM
When Belkar is in Hell, the last three panels in this episode (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0745.html) will take on more significance.
As Rorschach once said:"None of you seem to understand, I'm not locked in here with you, you're locked in here with me!"
Yeah, I didn't think of that. Nice catch. That could be some cool foreshadowing right there.
How about Both Belkar and Vaarsuvius dies?
The Prophecy also says that Belkar will be cause the death of Vaarsuvius! (Roy: Checked, Miko: Check (also destroy the chance the Azure city will be liberated), Her Horse: Check)
Or Vaarsuvius will die trying to bring back Belkar (maybe he would do it for the cat)!
The prophecy said Belkar would cause the death of at least one of the people he named. He did: the Oracle. The prophecy never said he'd cause the death of all of them.
olthar
2011-04-23, 01:58 PM
The prophecy said Belkar would cause the death of at least one of the people he named. He did: the Oracle. The prophecy never said he'd cause the death of all of them.
Also, using crazy oracle logic, because belkar killed the oracle, Haley never got to ask the oracle how to find V and company. Had haley managed to do so, then V would never have gone off alone and sold hir soul to the IFCC. Selling one's soul is similar to death, and it is also possible (read: likely) that the sold soul will result in V's death.
martianmister
2011-04-23, 02:06 PM
When Belkar is in Hell, the last three panels in this episode (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0745.html) will take on more significance.
As Rorschach once said:"None of you seem to understand, I'm not locked in here with you, you're locked in here with me!"
That would make him luckiest bastard ever lived :furious:
ThePhantasm
2011-04-23, 02:35 PM
I actually do suspect V will die as well, not because of the Oracle's prophecy though. Belkar won't cause her death (I don't think).
ShenCS
2011-04-23, 05:21 PM
Still playing the "ascend to god" strategy. I don't think the oracle has ever said that he'd die outright, just used euphemisms which, I think we can all agree, aren't reliable at all. But still, the thing that keeps Belkar going, the thing that he feels defines me above all others, is that he's a sexy shoeless god of war. Gods don't need to breathe. They also don't need birthday cakes, but I still want to see the oracle say "you should always savour your birthday cakes".
I think we can all agree,
Ha ha ha. You're kidding.
Doomboy911
2011-04-23, 06:22 PM
Perhaps this has been said before I've only read the first page so forgive me if mentioned. First off Roy has been told that by keeping Belkar in control he is making Belkar do more good. If Roy does anything to undo that it would be an evil act. Also our kobold oracle is a massive **** who is consistently manipulated everyone (told Varsuvius he'd come into ultimate power which he engineered via telling the mother black dragon where to find him. The black dragon only reason to find Varsuvius was because Varsuvius killed her son which only happened because the oracle told Roy where to find Xykon which led to his sword breaking. The oracle causes the Varsuvius to gain ultimate power by telling Roy info.) and he could easily be lying to Roy to make Belkar do extra damage somewhere important to the oracle. Process that theory.
Dalek-K
2011-04-23, 06:34 PM
Perhaps this has been said before I've only read the first page so forgive me if mentioned. First off Roy has been told that by keeping Belkar in control he is making Belkar do more good. If Roy does anything to undo that it would be an evil act. Also our kobold oracle is a massive **** who is consistently manipulated everyone (told Varsuvius he'd come into ultimate power which he engineered via telling the mother black dragon where to find him. The black dragon only reason to find Varsuvius was because Varsuvius killed her son which only happened because the oracle told Roy where to find Xykon which led to his sword breaking. The oracle causes the Varsuvius to gain ultimate power by telling Roy info.) and he could easily be lying to Roy to make Belkar do extra damage somewhere important to the oracle. Process that theory.
Sooo the Giant's DMPC is the Oracle and is railroading the party in game and out of game O_o this might get confusing...
Flame of Anor
2011-04-23, 06:40 PM
I don't think the oracle has ever said that he'd die outright,
Pure semantics! The Giant would never pull such a cheap trick on us.
ScottishDragon
2011-04-24, 08:40 PM
Belkar changing personality is just as bad as Belkar dying.If he isn't the sexy shoeless god of war that we know and love then he isn't Belkar at all.
sims796
2011-04-25, 12:53 PM
As with everything else in this comic, I'll adopt a wait n' see attitude in regards to Belkar's death. I don't care is Jesus Christ says Belkar is destined to die, it isn't set in ston euntil it happens, "logical" reasoning aside.
Mokomi
2011-04-26, 02:01 PM
Anyone else noticed how much more lawfull he is as well? he might end up as a true neutral.
Smiling Knight
2011-04-26, 04:32 PM
Umm, Belkar ain't being lawful at all. The entire point of the "Philosophy of Chaos" was that pretending to play by the rules while trying to subvert them is how a chaotic person should act if they want to survive. And moving up to TN would require the Belkster to give up his favorite hobbies of slaughter, murder, killing, and homicide.
wumpus
2011-04-26, 04:47 PM
However, the prophecy is clear and unambiguous - Belkar will take his last breath before the end of the year. Unless Belkar evolves another method of processing oxygen, his organs will deteriorate rapidly, leading to a condition that is commonly termed "death."
This seems to be the consensus of the playground, but I'm having trouble seeing how you determine <=1 year from "savor his next birthday cake.
I see two parts. First, Belkar has a charmed existence till his first birthday after meeting the kobold [0-364 days] (he gets a birthday cake that he should savor), followed by a full year in which he can die [another 0-365 days].
Minimum - 1 day (first birthday cake was poisoned)
Maximum 749 days (A succubus jumps out of the cake, kisses Belkar to death (they can do that in 3.5, right?) and drags him off to the nether planes (so the alignment issues don't line up, funny trumps rules in this comic)).
House_of_Dexter
2011-04-26, 05:16 PM
Perhaps this has been said before I've only read the first page so forgive me if mentioned. First off Roy has been told that by keeping Belkar in control he is making Belkar do more good. If Roy does anything to undo that it would be an evil act. Also our kobold oracle is a massive **** who is consistently manipulated everyone (told Varsuvius he'd come into ultimate power which he engineered via telling the mother black dragon where to find him. The black dragon only reason to find Varsuvius was because Varsuvius killed her son which only happened because the oracle told Roy where to find Xykon which led to his sword breaking. The oracle causes the Varsuvius to gain ultimate power by telling Roy info.) and he could easily be lying to Roy to make Belkar do extra damage somewhere important to the oracle. Process that theory.
I agree that the kobold can't be trusted. How do we know the oracle is not a big con? Whats the best way to tell a lie...To always tell the truth (or give them what they want) so that others always believe you(or come back for more), that way when you want to do your con, they believe you and do what you want.
1)We know that he protects his predictions by wiping the memory. So what do you get out of your prediction if you don't remember it? The only one who can benefit from the predictions is the Oracle or agents of the Oracle.
2)He tells truths clouded in vagaries.
3)He is a dragon follower and has dealings with CE Dragons. Suspect one aspect of Tiamat is CE.
4)The oracle hates Belkar...
5)Roy got out of the memory wipe by a loop hole, very convenient for the Oracle, if this a Con.
1)We know that he protects his predictions by wiping the memory. So what do you get out of your prediction if you don't remember it?
Except that the Memory Charm doesn't affect any of his predictions.
This seems to be the consensus of the playground, but I'm having trouble seeing how you determine <=1 year from "savor his next birthday cake.
The "within a year" calculation comes because the Oracle said so in so many words (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html).
wumpus
2011-04-26, 08:55 PM
The "within a year" calculation comes because the Oracle said so in so many words (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html).
Ah, I see that I was checking when the living consulted the oracle, not the dead.
Also, I was rather surprised Rich allowed Roy to remember (and tell Haley) about Belkar's appointment (the dismissal was not too surprising, remembering the afterlife is uncommon).
RickDaily12
2011-04-26, 09:36 PM
To those who have stated this before me, I'm sorry, but I promise I haven't stolen this from you.
I think as the the Giant has stated, death is but a slight annoyance to deal with, although something to be feared and to be avoided at all costs.
IF the Oracle says that Belkar will draw his last breath EVER, and Belkar is nowhere near the "max age limit"... then a red flag is being raised at me that something seriously wrong is going to happen... and that Roy may be winning his 10 GP bet after all...
In the rules, the direct rule of Resurrection is that the target cannot be raised if the soul does not consent, is unable to consent (due to something like Soul Bind) or if the character passed away because of old age.
However... there is ANOTHER way, in the OOTSiverse.
If a character is, for whatever reason, killed by the Snarl, they are not dead. They are undone. Something tells me Belkar will do something like willingly give up his existence to the Snarl to save the universe.
I mean, come on. You really think that if Belkar were to pass because he died in battle, that no one would raise him because he's a heartless jackass? I mean, come on, does the world hate him that much?:smallfrown:
Besides, when ANY Order Member likes it or not, Belkar is STILL an actively involved character in this quest. Roy says so himself while he was dead, and talking to the Astral Deva.
harmsc12
2011-04-26, 10:28 PM
I think the consensus here among those who have banished their epileptic trees is that Belkar is DOOMED! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DoomyDoomsOfDoom)
Especially since oots0572 is pretty explicit about it. This comic is pretty straightforward, and Burlew already showed the readers what he thinks of epileptic trees way back in the incident with Miko.
Querzis
2011-04-26, 10:44 PM
I mean, come on. You really think that if Belkar were to pass because he died in battle, that no one would raise him because he's a heartless jackass?
...Yes?
I mean, come on, does the world hate him that much?:smallfrown:
And yes.
Flame of Anor
2011-04-26, 11:55 PM
I mean, come on. You really think that if Belkar were to pass because he died in battle, that no one would raise him because he's a heartless jackass?
:belkar: See also: jackass.
Gettles
2011-04-27, 01:38 PM
I mean, come on. You really think that if Belkar were to pass because he died in battle, that no one would raise him because he's a heartless jackass? I mean, come on, does the world hate him that much?:smallfrown:
Roy and Hailey make it pretty clear that if he dies they have no intention of reviving him. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html) It doesn't matter if the world hates him that much, just that the leader and second in command of the Order hate him that much.
(As a side note, the world also hates him that much.)
BlackestOfMages
2011-04-27, 03:17 PM
or he could change his name legaly to the Belkster, thus Belkar Bitterleaf will take his last breath
RickDaily12
2011-04-27, 05:43 PM
OK, fine, point taken. The Order of the Stick has no intention of reviving him.
But I wonder about secondary groups. Is there actually no one else out there who would revive him because of this quest?
If it's his last breath, ever, it's implied to me that something would actually stop Belkar's revival, rather than everyone else in the universe ignoring his death and moving on with their lives. Strikes me as rather disappointing. Plus, the Oracle appears to enjoy emphasising that it will be his last, breath, ever.
WeLoveFireballs
2011-04-27, 08:54 PM
Belkar will die and fully exit into the afterlife. Nothing like a name change or undead. Such things would be unsatisfying for everyone and the giant knows this. Belkar will however be a force against the IFCC. The exact manner of his death is unknown but he will die.
Lesingnon
2011-04-27, 10:44 PM
Actually, I'm not so certain that there'd be no thought given to reviving Belkar in the event of his death. Haley and Elan, at least, seemed pretty distraught when they thought Belkar died (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0165.html). And Elan was definitely relieved to find out that he was still alive. And that was before the whole Mark of Justice incident and Belkar beginning to act in what they'd consider to be a more acceptable manner.
There might be a lot of jokes made about how they don't really care about Belkar, but I'm not sure that's actually the case.
Though I have to agree that Belkar dying then being revived doesn't fit with the wording of the Oracle's prophecy. But hey, I'm sure there's a reason it was kept kind of vague.
RunicLGB
2011-04-28, 01:26 AM
Though I have to agree that Belkar dying then being revived doesn't fit with the wording of the Oracle's prophecy. But hey, I'm sure there's a reason it was kept kind of vague.
What about reincarnation?
What about reincarnation?
He'd still be in the world.
ThePhantasm
2011-04-28, 04:58 PM
Actually, I'm not so certain that there'd be no thought given to reviving Belkar in the event of his death. Haley and Elan, at least, seemed pretty distraught when they thought Belkar died (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0165.html). And Elan was definitely relieved to find out that he was still alive. And that was before the whole Mark of Justice incident and Belkar beginning to act in what they'd consider to be a more acceptable manner.
There might be a lot of jokes made about how they don't really care about Belkar, but I'm not sure that's actually the case.
Though I have to agree that Belkar dying then being revived doesn't fit with the wording of the Oracle's prophecy. But hey, I'm sure there's a reason it was kept kind of vague.
I agree that Elan likes Belkar. His vote wouldn't be enough to resurrect him, though. Haley, judging by recent conversations with Roy, seems fine with Belkar dying. He got on her nerves while he was tagging along with her and Roy's dead body. Durkon also seems quite legitimately annoyed by Belkar. V is a bit of a wildcard, being that she has recently turned to evil (and so may be sympathetic to Belkar) and her rivalry with Belkar can be hard to read (they seem to have learned respect for each other that they hide with insults, and she is taking care of his cat after all). Roy is fine with Belkar dying. In short, V and Elan are not outspoken enough members of the party to resurrect Belkar, and the leaders of the party are against his resurrection.
Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "kind of vague." Surely you mean "kind of obvious"? :smallwink:
factotum
2011-04-29, 02:18 AM
I agree that Elan likes Belkar.
He liked him back in the Dungeons of Dorukan, but I think even Elan has learned Belkar's true nature--back when they left Azure City they seemed to have talked Elan down from jumping overboard and swimming back to help Haley, until someone foolishly mentioned she was alone with Belkar!
Querzis
2011-04-29, 02:44 AM
He liked him back in the Dungeons of Dorukan, but I think even Elan has learned Belkar's true nature--back when they left Azure City they seemed to have talked Elan down from jumping overboard and swimming back to help Haley, until someone foolishly mentioned she was alone with Belkar!
Actually, I think he mostly learned his true nature when Belkar tried to kill him for XP.
ThePhantasm
2011-04-29, 06:52 AM
He liked him back in the Dungeons of Dorukan, but I think even Elan has learned Belkar's true nature--back when they left Azure City they seemed to have talked Elan down from jumping overboard and swimming back to help Haley, until someone foolishly mentioned she was alone with Belkar!
That's true, I had forgotten about that. Good point.
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