Totemist Damage?

[Azernak0]

I just started reading Incarnum and have been having difficulty trying to wrap my head around it. It is less confusing than I thought though. One thing I don't really understand is the Totemist. I have seen it all over threads how the Totemist is a blender and blows things apart with it's damage. Looking at it, I only see it doing multiple attacks for 1d4 or 1d6+4 damage. It seems less impressive than just a Barbarian who took Power Attack.

What gives?

[dextercorvia]

It is fairly easy to get 6+ natural attacks by 6th level. They are enhanced by essentia investment, so you don't have to pay extra for magic bonuses. There is a soulmeld which gives you pounce with natural weapons. There are other soulmelds which increase damage. Dread Carapace gives you a Power Attack like ability for your Natural Weapons (including X2 for the bite).

[Greenish]

n*(1d4+Str+e+misc)=:smallcool:

[candycorn]

It works real well when combo'd with Warshaper and Black Blood Cultist. Splash a level of binder in for a Gore attack, and there ya have it.

[Tvtyrant]

One of them gives you a frost breath weapon that can go up to 200 damage a round average if you pour essentia into it, and you can do better then that by full attacking with tons of natural weapons. The real problem with Totemists is their lack of a real ranged soul meld, but they can use their multitude of arms to wield lots of bows with the splitting enhancement for mad arrows.

[dragonsamurai77]

One of them gives you a frost breath weapon that can go up to 200 damage a round average if you pour essentia into it, and you can do better then that by full attacking with tons of natural weapons. The real problem with Totemists is their lack of a real ranged soul meld, but they can use their multitude of arms to wield lots of bows with the splitting enhancement for mad arrows.

The Manticore something (Belt, I believe), gives very good range capabilities.

[RaginChangeling]

Mantiocre Belt can potentially get up to six or seven spines per round with 150 ft range and half strength damage on each. Not as good as melee damage, but pretty awesome all the same.

[dextercorvia]

Mantiocre Belt can potentially get up to six or seven spines per round with 150 ft range and half strength damage on each. Not as good as melee damage, but pretty awesome all the same.

Combine with Dragonfire Inspiration, and Knowledge Devotion.

[RaginChangeling]

Yeah, when you first unlock your Totem Chakra and right after you hit level 9 and 16 the Manticore belt is arguably your best offensive option and doesn't require multi-attack for hitting. At other levels most melee builds pull ahead though in terms of raw damage.

[Person_Man]

Basic Totemist options:

1) Get 4+ natural attacks. This generally only takes 1-3 soulmelds, which can be accomplished at level 1 or 2 depending on your racial and feat choices. Note that Girillion Arms gives you 4 claws (when bound), Lamia Belt gives you 2 claws (when bound) on your "lower half" (presumably you grow centaur-ish legs like the lamia, and they have claws), Chaos Roc's Span (Dragon Mag 350) gives you two wing buffets (unbound), Dragon Tail (Dragon Magic) gives you a tail (unbound), Claws of the Wyrm (also Dragon Magic) gives you 2 claws (unbound), and so on.

2) Boost those natural attacks. You can do this by increasing your size, which isn't hard to do via a wide variety of non-Incarnum options. You can also use the Dread Carapace, Heart of Fire, and Totem Avatar soulmelds, plus a variety of feats and magic items.

3) Remember that you can still use your normal attack routine, and use your natural attacks as secondary attacks. You can't us a clawed hand if it's holding a weapon, but you can use everything else. (Or you could just use unarmed strike or armor spikes, so that you're not giving up any attacks). So a low-mid level Totemist's attack routine is typically something like Weapon/Weapon/Weapon/Claw/Claw/Claw/Wing/Wing/Bite/Tail/Horn/etc, plus attacks of opportunity and extra hurt generated by Grapple and/or Trip.

4) If you're feeling really cheesy, get a Familiar and take the Share Soulmelds feat, allowing your Familiar to share the benefits of your soulmelds, giving it 4+ natural weapons.

5) Remember that you have a ton of options that have nothing to do with natural attacks which you can change every morning depending on your needs and/or whims, so you're not just a one trick pony. At will Dimension Door, Flesh to Stone, area of effect Save or Stun, breath weapons, a variety of Skills, buff-able Wild Empathy (Will you be my friend Mr. Basalisk? Want to go on an adventure?), and so on.

6) Go read the Incarnum related PrC. While a strait Totemist 20 is playable at every level, the various PrC are better at certain ECLs if you know what you're doing. Most notably the Ironsoul Forgemaster, Necrocarnate, Soulcaster, Totem Rager, and Soul Manifester.

[Azernak0]

Thanks for the replies. My only concern now is the ability to deal damage at higher level. At the moment, my build (Totemist 4 / Barbarian 1) gets something like 10 attacks. Its pretty devastating at lower levels but can the damage actually scale effectively with VoP?

[Grynning]

...but can the damage actually scale effectively with VoP?

The answer to this question, regardless of what character you are playing, is generally no. VoP is never as good as wealth by level.

VoP should only be taken in a game where you have a DM who A) doesn't understand how D&D takes items into account when scaling encounters and B) as a result, does not give out nearly enough magic items or allow you to buy enough magic items.

Unfortunately, such DM's are the type of people who tend to think VoP is overpowered :smallsigh:

That said, a Totemist is "better" at VoP than most classes, because you can get some item-like abilities from your soulmelds. However, they will still not be as good as a Totemist who also has items.

[Zergrusheddie]

I don't know enough about Incarnum to make too many guesses but don't the different Binds or whatever they are called take up magic item slots? If this is the case, it seems like Vow of Poverty would be the wisest thing to do. If you really do have 10 attacks, than adding a +1 magic bonus to all of them seems like a great idea.

The problem that will come up is size increasing though. From the Unarmed builds I have played with, I know that most of the damage comes from getting size increases as fast as possible. Poverty really shoots a lot of those options in the face.

Best of luck.
-Eddie

[Veyr]

They can take up magic item slots, but do not every time. In particular, they only do if you bind them to a Chakra, and you only get... I wanna say about 6 of those as a Totemist 20? And the Split Chakra feat can allow you to still equip an item in one of those each time you take it.

[Coidzor]

They can take up magic item slots, but do not every time. In particular, they only do if you bind them to a Chakra, and you only get... I wanna say about 6 of those as a Totemist 20? And the Split Chakra feat can allow you to still equip an item in one of those each time you take it.

And with the magic item compendium stacking rules you can get a lot more bang for your buck anyway as long as you plan out which slots you're unlikely to bind or pick up Split Chakra.

[RaginChangeling]

They can take up magic item slots, but do not every time. In particular, they only do if you bind them to a Chakra, and you only get... I wanna say about 6 of those as a Totemist 20? And the Split Chakra feat can allow you to still equip an item in one of those each time you take it.

And for a Totemist especially, two or three of those are going to be on your Totem Chakra which doesn't affect Magic items at all. Incarnates are less fortunate in that regard.

[Veyr]

And for a Totemist especially, two or three of those are going to be on your Totem Chakra which doesn't affect Magic items at all. Incarnates are less fortunate in that regard.
Actually, a rule most people miss: something bound to your Totem Chakra still fills the Chakra it would normally be bound to, you just don't get those benefits. It's weird, but (IIRC), true.

[Greenish]

Actually, a rule most people miss: something bound to your Totem Chakra still fills the Chakra it would normally be bound to, you just don't get those benefits. It's weird, but (IIRC), true.It fills the chakra, but if it's not bound to that chakra, it doesn't occupy a body slot.

See also the description of Totem chakra:
Since the totem chakra doesn't match a body location, binding a soulmeld to this chakra doesn't restrict your use of magic items that take up a body location.

Also, you do get the normal benefits from shaping the 'meld while it's bound to your totem chakra.

[Veyr]

Ah, I misunderstood/misremembered that.

[Greenish]

Ah, I misunderstood/misremembered that.What, misunderstood MoI? How is that possible?!

:smalltongue:

[Kuulvheysoon]

What, misunderstood MoI? How is that possible?!

:smalltongue:

Gasp! Say it ain't so!

Clearly though, way to go Wizards. I should be grateful that the melds are at least in alphabetical order.

[Veyr]

The ordering of the 'melds is one of the biggest problems in the book, IMO. They should have been separated by class. I know, that's not how they do spells, either, but frankly it's bad and it's always been bad and it's that much worse with Soulmelds (where the short entry in the spell lists doesn't actually list what they do when bound).

[Kuulvheysoon]

The ordering of the 'melds is one of the biggest problems in the book, IMO. They should have been separated by class. I know, that's not how they do spells, either, but frankly it's bad and it's always been bad and it's that much worse with Soulmelds (where the short entry in the spell lists doesn't actually list what they do when bound).

Most definitely. I would have much preferred a Totemist list, and an Incarnate/Soulborn list (maybe even giving some more soulmelds to the Soulborn... poor guy). But at least they're in SOME sort of order. Knowing how amazing the editors can be over there....

I can forgive Wizards for not including the chakra bind benefits in the spell listing, though, purely because of space restrictions in the table itself.

[Grendus]

MoI is slightly better in pdf form, because you can ctrl+f your soulmelds. Makes it slightly easier to track down what each one does. It's a shame WotC is so anal about things like the Crystalkeep guides, I expect someone could do great work with copypasta organizing the soulmelds by class and slot.

I think some of those natural attacks don't stack or specify that you can't use additional natural attacks, but the end result is that the Totemist is a fairly powerful T3. Fairly versatile, and capable of picking several different tricks and changing them both minute to minute. If the book wasn't so difficult to use, it would probably be as popular as ToB for non-suck melee classes. It's a very fun system to play with.

[Azernak0]

The only thing that I really see as a problem for VoP is the complete and utter lack of increasing size through Enlarge Person potions. It is also lame that bonuses to stats are going to come so very late. A +4 and a +2 stat adder is completely lame at level 11 when everyone probably has multiple stat adders. What is extremely nice is the making all natural attacks magic weapons. Getting a bonus to all natural attacks would be annoying. I am just not sure if the convenience is worth the hit in power.

[Kuulvheysoon]

...Honesty, that's among the least of your worries when it comes to Totemists and VoP. A bigger one? Will saves. No Mind Blank for you.

[Coidzor]

Getting a bonus to all natural attacks would be annoying. I am just not sure if the convenience is worth the hit in power.

Or cost 6000 gp and be a Core option. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#amuletofMightyFists)

Don't most of the natural weapons that a Totemist gets have enhancement bonuses and count as magical as part of the whole essentia investment process anyway? :smallconfused:

[Veyr]

Honestly... even with seven or eight natural attacks, straight enhancement bonuses are just not that good. Sure, Mighty Fists is cost-effective when you have that many attacks, but I think I'd still rather the Necklace of Natural Attacks. It'll either cost more or not affect all of your attacks, but at least you can get some decent properties on them instead of just enhancement bonuses.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Honestly... even with seven or eight natural attacks, straight enhancement bonuses are just not that good. Sure, Mighty Fists is cost-effective when you have that many attacks, but I think I'd still rather the Necklace of Natural Attacks. It'll either cost more or not affect all of your attacks, but at least you can get some decent properties on them instead of just enhancement bonuses.

Completely and utterly second'd.

[Coidzor]

Honestly... even with seven or eight natural attacks, straight enhancement bonuses are just not that good. Sure, Mighty Fists is cost-effective when you have that many attacks, but I think I'd still rather the Necklace of Natural Attacks. It'll either cost more or not affect all of your attacks, but at least you can get some decent properties on them instead of just enhancement bonuses.

Well, the point was that a core option easily equaled that aspect of VoP and only cost 6K.

[tyckspoon]

Don't most of the natural weapons that a Totemist gets have enhancement bonuses and count as magical as part of the whole essentia investment process anyway? :smallconfused:

The main problem doing it that way is that most of the melds only improve themselves when you invest in them, and you don't have enough essentia to keep every single meld you have topped off (you'd think there'd be a 'all your natural attacks get +whatever' meld, but.. there isn't.) So if you want flat enhancement bonuses, you're actually better off buying a Mighty Fists and saving your essentia for your Thunderstep Boots/Heart of Flame/whatever.

[Kuulvheysoon]

The main problem doing it that way is that most of the melds only improve themselves when you invest in them, and you don't have enough essentia to keep every single meld you have topped off (you'd think there'd be a 'all your natural attacks get +whatever' meld, but.. there isn't.) So if you want flat enhancement bonuses, you're actually better off buying a Mighty Fists and saving your essentia for your Thunderstep Boots/Heart of Flame/whatever.

Well... there KINDA is. Depends how loose your definition of that is. Totem Avatar gives you +attack power, while Dread Carapace gives you effective PA (with double value on a bite, instead of a 2HD). They both explicitly state that they affect ALL of your natural weapons.