Alternative to negative levels.

[Pigkappa]

I'm running Expedition to castle Ravenloft and we have a problem with negative levels. The campaign is, like, full of vampires. Vampires as humans, vampires as wolves, vampires as bats, vampire spawns and so on. Every time a PC is hit by one of those, he gains 2 negative levels.

The group can't cast Restore yet, and there's no friendly NPC who can. The Cleric has currently 2 negative levels (already failed his saving throws) and will look for a scroll of Restore; he will find it, but since there's no one around who can make it there won't be many of those scrolls around.

What can I do to solve this problem? I was thinking of replacing the negative levels effect with something different from now on, but I'm not sure what could be fit.

[dextercorvia]

Con damage would probably work.

What level are the PC's?

[Spartacus]

I personally hate negative levels when they can be permanent. I tend to make them go away either 1/day, or all at the end of the day, depending on the optimization level of the campaign. Works well.

[RaggedAngel]

I personally hate negative levels when they can be permanent. I tend to make them go away either 1/day, or all at the end of the day, depending on the optimization level of the campaign. Works well.

We tend to do this when we're running a 'for fun' game in Ravenloft. Negative levels suck, and they're supposed to; it's when they stick that you're character becomes useless. Imposing a -1 penalty to everything is plenty suckatude if it only lasts a day or so.

[Yora]

A very simple solution to lessen the impact of energy drain is to simply keep them in place after the failed save to remove them. Then restoration can be cast at any point later to remove them without being in a hurry about it.
However, when there are a lot of monsters that drain levels, the immediate effects are even more of a problem.

[Pigkappa]

They are level 6, except for the level 7 paladin. The only cleric has a level of barbarian so he won't cast Restore soon anyway.

I'm not really running a "for fun" game and the PCs die when they have to. They've never entered the castle and there's been a dead rogue already. But I'm being really generous with XP penalties: when a character dies, the next one will be of the same level (usually losing just a little XP, between 100 and 1000); when the wizard's familiar died, he didn't lose XP (losing the familiar class feature for 1 year is already annoying). If they keep losing levels every time they die, I'm kinda sure the adventure will never end because they will quickly become weaker and weaker.

[Douglas]

There's a pair of feats on page 200 of Expedition to Castle Ravenloft that counter negative levels pretty thoroughly. Point these out to your players and be lenient about allowing them to retrain/rebuild their characters to get them quickly (and maybe trade them out again later if you eventually move on to something else with the same characters), and the problem will be taken care of.

[Pigkappa]

The first one sucks. The other one makes you nearly immune to negative levels but has 2 crappy feats as requirements, and 2 feat taxes at level 6 is really bad...

[ffone]

A very simple solution to lessen the impact of energy drain is to simply keep them in place after the failed save to remove them. Then restoration can be cast at any point later to remove them without being in a hurry about it.
However, when there are a lot of monsters that drain levels, the immediate effects are even more of a problem.

This is what I do. There is no permanent level drain; it's replaced with negative levels of infinite duration (but which Restore etc. can still remove).

On a side not, I never liked all-undead-all-the-time campaigns (shockingly common even among DMs' own created campaigns), due to the lack of variety. "You played a rogue or enchanter? Sorry."

[Pigkappa]

That doesn't work very well at low levels, since the Cleric cannot cast Restore. And there's nobody in Barovia who can (the Vistanis have a scroll for sale (by DM fiat), but they will need quite some time before they find another one).

I was thinking of switching any negative level with 1d4 damage to all attributes. So when you are hit by a vampire you will have 2d4 damage to Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis and Cha. But I'm afraid this can be devastating because it would be really easy for the casters to lose all of their spells if struck once.

[Coidzor]

Maybe they...should consider the many sidequests they can do to build up their power and break off their assault on the castle?

[Garagos]

This is what I do. There is no permanent level drain; it's replaced with negative levels of infinite duration (but which Restore etc. can still remove).

On a side not, I never liked all-undead-all-the-time campaigns (shockingly common even among DMs' own created campaigns), due to the lack of variety. "You played a rogue or enchanter? Sorry."

Not to derail the thread or anything, but a solution for rogues against undead is the feat Analyze Unliving or something like that. Allows you to sneak attack undead, but with d4s instead of d6s. If you're a Good rogue, take Sacred Strike and that bumps your sneak attacks vs evil undead (most undead) back to d6s and to any other evil creatures that can be sneak attacked to d8s.

[Pigkappa]

They are sidequesting. But this doesn't prevent Strahd to send Sasha or Varikov against them. Today he attacked them himself because they aren't going to kill the hags as he wanted to, and gave them 4 negative levels before retreating.

[Fitz10019]

alternative to negative levels: monk levels? heh

[Coidzor]

alternative to negative levels: monk levels? heh

Now there's an idea.

[Lord Vampyre]

Ravenloft isn't suppose to be a fun campaign. It's suppose to be dark and dreary. The attrition of the players losing a level, constantly taking one step forward and then two steps back, is supposed to add to the atmosphere. This should cause the players to enter combat with caution, and run when they have to.

If you have access to Heroes of Horror, you could always apply the taint rules in place of the level drain. This would give you some options as to interesting penalties, besides level loss. Hopefully adding to the atmosphere of the game.

[Yora]

They are sidequesting. But this doesn't prevent Strahd to send Sasha or Varikov against them. Today he attacked them himself because they aren't going to kill the hags as he wanted to, and gave them 4 negative levels before retreating.

But nothing forces you to have Strahd sense them out, and even if he does you don't have to have them find them.

[DeltaEmil]

Losing levels because of negative energy drain isn't really dark and dreary, it's rather dreadfully annoying, and hinges purely on a meta-game concept (Oh no, I have to re-grind my lost level! Again!), making the players not care for the atmosphere of the game (a dark and haunted adventure against a famous vampire count), but focus on something stupid like a number on their character sheet.

[Pigkappa]

Also, since I'm not penalizing them with XP loss when they die, a negative level is currently worse than dying from a mechanical point of view. This is very bad :(.

[Tvtyrant]

Just have them do negative energy damage like an inflict spell would. Say each vampire touch acts as an inflict critical wounds and your good. If the person dies to the wounds they become a vampire spawn.

[Pigkappa]

I think I will just make madame Eva a few levels higher, so that she can prepare Restore and cast for the PCs. They will have to pay the regular price (380 gp each time, iirc), of course.

[NichG]

I second the taint idea. Have negative levels convert to taint at one a day or something. Play up the fact that the taint represents a connection with the being that drained them, and that they feel that if only they slew the being they could cleanse their soul. But of course it doesn't end up that way.

[HunterOfJello]

Taint sounds like a good idea. I personally love the sanity rules from Unearthed Arcana. One of the players in my current game was foolish enough to put an object called the Pumpkin Crown on his Warforged's head. After he put the pumpkin shaped helmet on his head, it started growing into his body and I had him do a bunch of rolls for sanity loss. He ended up partially losing his mind and gained a permanent Psychospecies Disorder. To put it simply, the Living Construct now believes he is a Plant.


Another option is to give them an Eternal Wand with whatever spell removes negative levels. This is probably not a very good idea however, since it will lead to the players removing 2 negative levels per day and then stopping their adventuring for 24 hours until the eternal wand is recharged again. (Not to mention the fact that eternal wands are supposed to only possess arcane spells.)

[Popertop]

alternative to negative levels: monk levels? heh

You are one evil, evil man.

I can just see the poor wizard player.

DM: You have a permanent negative level, but in this campaign,
that just means you have to take your next level in monk.

Wizard:NOOOOOOOOOOO!


If you have access to Heroes of Horror, you could always apply the taint rules in place of the level drain. This would give you some options as to interesting penalties, besides level loss. Hopefully adding to the atmosphere of the game.

Also this.

Taint wouldn't be the worst idea.

But God help your soul if you enforce that monk level.

[Coidzor]

(Not to mention the fact that eternal wands are supposed to only possess arcane spells.)

How's that a bad idea to extend some fair play towards divine spells? :smalltongue: Besides, Restoration is a 4th level Cleric and Pally spell, so unless they awarded it to some obscure PrC at a low level...


But God help your soul if you enforce that monk level.

I think it would be hilarious myself. Though only if there were some way to eventually convert it into something actually useful... unless you get reduced to a full-class monk, at which case your character becomes an NPC cohort of the first thing it sees. ...Though that might be too abusable and abusive...