what are the differences in psionics from 3.0 to 3.5?

[big teej]

I recently got my hands on the Psionic handbook.

and I love the idea of the psionic combat modes and psion vs psion combat.



but one of my players observed that the SRD doesn't match up with my book.

so I find myself wondering...

is my book 3.0 (I'm pretty sure it is.)

and what was changed/removed entirely in the 3.5 update from psionics?

[Glimbur]

Your book is 3.0. 3.0 psionics is generally poorly regarded. Combat modes are interesting, but the general complaint is that when you look at how it works in a party setting problems develop. I don't have firsthand experience with 3.0, but I can say that 3.5 is pretty solid stuff.

[Flickerdart]

The Psionics Handbook is 3.0 content. The Expanded Psionics Handbook is the far superior 3.5 revision. Revised psionic combat rules for 3.5 can be found in, I believe, the excellent third-party supplement Hyperconscious.

[raitalin]

What changed? Almost everything. For the better. Stick with the SRD.

[Douglas]

The central changes from 3.0 to 3.5:
1) Primary ability score does not depend on discipline choice.
2) Most powers scale through augmenting without having to learn a whole new higher level power.
3) Psionic combat no longer works like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9358778&postcount=8). Instead, each of the attack and defense modes were converted to normal psionic powers.

[DeltaEmil]

The people who do like psionic combat do often not really read the rules and see how complicated psionic combat is and how it disrupts gameplay.

Of course, it was even worse in the older editions...

It's one of those features that look great when visualized (two mind-masters mentally making psychic ectoplasmic attacks in the blink of an eye, like Professor X against the Phoenix), but just outright horrible when written down...

[big teej]

the psionic combat rules made sense to me.... :smalltongue:

[Quietus]

Be that as it may, try throwing two parties against each other, each with one psion. See how much more time is spent on psionic combat between those two compared to everything else - and how those abilities work when interacting with nonpsionic characters. It's .. not pretty.

[Lateral]

Short answer? Everything.

Long answer?
EEEEEVVVVVVVVEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYYTTTTTTTTHHH HHHHHHHIIIIIIIINNNNNNNGGGGGG.

[big teej]

Be that as it may, try throwing two parties against each other, each with one psion. See how much more time is spent on psionic combat between those two compared to everything else - and how those abilities work when interacting with nonpsionic characters. It's .. not pretty.

color me dense, but I'm afraid I'm not seeing the time sink here.

two parties encounter each other.
roll for initiative.
comes around to Psion A's turn - he picks an attack mode.
Psion B defends.
-consult table for will save-
roll damage
continue initiative.
Psion B's turn - he picks an attack mode.
Psion A defends
-consult table for will save-
roll damage
continue

and so on until one of the Psion's is defeated, in which case, combat continues as normal with the Psion either using normal powers to attack the op-force, or strugglin through the "non psyker buffer" to stun them.


now, I'm aware I occaisionally just don't understand very simple things (took me forever to really 'get' LA buyoff)

but I just can't see this being a huge time sink.

[DeltaEmil]

You don't really see how first of all, it's only the psions (or psychic creatures) who roll combat and how the gm has to focus on the psionic combat before real combat with all the other players involved starts, and that both need to consult a table all the time to compare their results, and that both the player and the gm must decide what kind of attack or defense mode would be appropriate (and let's not start with multiple psionic enemies)? Because this is really not fun at all for the other players, as the combat takes some time to resolve, there is the danger of option paralysis, and there is lots of book-keeping involved furthermore.

Sure, if both gm and player only would need 1 minute to resolve the entire psionic combat, then it wouldn't be such a problem. But first, this is another completely different combat subsystem, second, reality shows that no combat is ever resolved in a minute (be glad if you manage to solve the entire thing in 10 minutes, and then there's the normal combat which might take more than an hour), third, depending on how much toll the psionic combat took, you then get annihilated by the enemy anyway, because you burned out all your powers.

On paper, it "might" look good. In practice, gaming groups drop the entire thing and either ban psionics because of this bad experience or switch over to simpler methods, like the 3.5 psionic system.

Now, if you really enjoy that stuff, try to find out if your entire gaming group is also willing to do that. If everybody's involved in psionic combat, then it might become funny, and nobody will be left out.
But chances are that you'll be a minority in your gaming group, once people hear how psionic combat works AND see in practice how long it actually takes. Especially then when this will come up more than once.

[big teej]

You don't really see how first of all, it's only the psions (or psychic creatures) who roll combat and how the gm has to focus on the psionic combat before real combat with all the other players involved starts, and that both need to consult a table all the time to compare their results, and that both the player and the gm must decide what kind of attack or defense mode would be appropriate (and let's not start with multiple psionic enemies)? Because this is really not fun at all for the other players, as the combat takes some time to resolve, there is the danger of option paralysis, and there is lots of book-keeping involved furthermore.

Sure, if both gm and player only would need 1 minute to resolve the entire psionic combat, then it wouldn't be such a problem. But first, this is another completely different combat subsystem, second, reality shows that no combat is ever resolved in a minute (be glad if you manage to solve the entire thing in 10 minutes, and then there's the normal combat which might take more than an hour), third, depending on how much toll the psionic combat took, you then get annihilated by the enemy anyway, because you burned out all your powers.

On paper, it "might" look good. In practice, gaming groups drop the entire thing and either ban psionics because of this bad experience or switch over to simpler methods, like the 3.5 psionic system.

Now, if you really enjoy that stuff, try to find out if your entire gaming group is also willing to do that. If everybody's involved in psionic combat, then it might become funny, and nobody will be left out.
But chances are that you'll be a minority in your gaming group, once people hear how psionic combat works AND see in practice how long it actually takes. Especially then when this will come up more than once.

who says you have to resolve the ENTIRE psionic conflict in one go?
why not simply include it in the standard initiative order like you would a summoned creature or animal companion?

in case my original example wasn't clear (which looking at it, I'm not sure it was given your response)

lets say two partys roll initiative,
Psion A goes first,
Psion A picks an attack mode - given good gamer ediquette, he should have this chosen in advance just like a wizard and their spells.
Psion B picks a defense - again, should have something picked out in advance.
consult the chart - handily taped to the DM screen.
resolve attack
proceed to next in intiative.
say... the fighter.
his turn ends,
next is the party rogue.
and then Psion B
repeat process from Psion A's turn


I guess I'm just going to have to give it ago, because I just can't envision this taking significantly more time than anyone else's turn.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, ok, and now after one encounter you have no PP left over to actually manifest powers. Great job being a full manifesting class.

[Tetsubo 57]

the psionic combat rules made sense to me.... :smalltongue:

They never did for me. Not since 1E. I like the idea of psionics in my D&D game. I just prefer the way that 3.5 handled it.

I also suggest taking a look at how Stars Without Numbers deals with psionics. I think it is quite interesting.