[Test Of Spite] Preparations Have Begun.

[Doc Roc]

This is your systems administrator for ToS and related services. I'd like to announce that we've finalized our list of games for the upcoming relaunch of the Test of Spite.


We will be supporting arenas for the following games:
Exalted
Legend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194319)
7th Sea

We are actively seeking match referees for each of these systems. Please get in touch. Estimated roll-out for this is 5/5/11. Please stand by. We appreciate your patience in this matter, and would like to assure that our forces will triumph. We are, as ever, committed to annihilating your way of life through the use of directed beams of awesome.

Join us in chat here (http://mibbit.com/#[email protected]), if you'd like.

[Claudius Maximus]

Volunteering as a Legend Referee.

Normally I would learn all three systems and ref for them, but I'm afraid I have too much to do. My apologies.

[Doc Roc]

Volunteering as a Legend Referee.

Normally I would learn all three systems and ref for them, but I'm afraid I have too much to do. My apologies.

We are proud to have you. Welcome home.

[Claudius Maximus]

Since we'll have the Legend design team here, to how far should I take RAW arguments? With the old 3.5 ToS we had to debate RAW constantly, but you guys can provide RAI and even change the material to reflect it.

So what happens when we get into such a situation? Will you guys simply lay down the law, and if so, what happens to the match?

[Doc Roc]

Since we'll have the Legend design team here, to how far should I take RAW arguments? With the old 3.5 ToS we had to debate RAW constantly, but you guys can provide RAI and even change the material to reflect it.

So what happens when we get into such a situation? Will you guys simply lay down the law, and if so, what happens to the match?

We'll lay down the law. Depending on how bad the issue is, we may resort to traditional ToS resolution... where the hounds eat you and you get called a victor. Nothing like a deliciously hollow accolade, right?







Right?

[SurlySeraph]

This is a ploy to make everyone who hasn't yet finally read through Legend, isn't it? :smalltongue:

I won't have enough free time to consider reffing, but I'm excited to see ToS return. Will there be standard fixes, starting XP, and banlists*?

*Exalted: this thread (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=32971) and this one (http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/forums/t/21245.aspx) would be useful for constructing a banlist and fixed versions to use instead for martial arts.

[Nohwl]

what level are the legend characters supposed to be?

[Doc Roc]

This is a ploy to make everyone who hasn't yet finally read through Legend, isn't it? :smalltongue:

I won't have enough free time to consider reffing, but I'm excited to see ToS return. Will there be standard fixes, starting XP, and banlists*?

*Exalted: this thread (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=32971) and this one (http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/forums/t/21245.aspx) would be useful for constructing a banlist and fixed versions to use instead for martial arts.

Actually, the reason for using Legend is because the ToS is where Legend started. More than that, it's a system where I have perfect-and-complete authority. I have a chance to really fix things that break, which is pretty cool I think. How many systems undergo this sort of a stress test?

As for the others:
Yes, yes, and yes. We'll be starting without a fix\ban list for these systems though, in an effort to minimize barriers to initial entry. 7th Sea in particularly was recommended due to accessibility.



what level are the legend characters supposed to be?

Let's start with 13th, for old time's sake. Good to hear from you, Nohwl. :)

[Tavar]

Wait....

You're using allowing Exalted, as in the game from White Wolf, Second Edition?

[SurlySeraph]

As for the others:
Yes, yes, and yes. We'll be starting without a fix\ban list for these systems though, in an effort to minimize barriers to initial entry. 7th Sea in particularly was recommended due to accessibility.

For Exalted, you may need to start with some of the SMAs from Scroll of the Monk banned. Obsidian Shards of Infinity Style provides a scene-long combined perfect dodge and flurrybreaker for 1m per use 5 charms in, aka "It costs 1m per round to be immune to almost everything." Scarlet-Patterned Battlefield Style has a no-prereqs charm that makes every attack you make unexpected (which can be dealt with, and for Abyssals it's free to deal with it, but it's still problematic), has a 30% chance of halving the successes on any attack made against the user, and has a 10% chance of negating any attack made against the user.

[Doc Roc]

Wait....

You're using allowing Exalted, as in the game from White Wolf, Second Edition?

People keep telling me it's great. I keep telling them I'm not sure how you even play it without blowing up the planet. We talked, and agreed it was time to find out.

[Tavar]

SurlySeraph isn't joking, then. You really do need to ban almost all of the Sidereal Martial Arts(I believe, crud, the one in Glories of the Most High: Maidens? is okay). Otherwise, well, it's not much of a game.

There's also the issue that Inter-splat equality isn't assumed.

[9mm]

People keep telling me it's great. I keep telling them I'm not sure how you even play it without blowing up the planet. We talked, and agreed it was time to find out.

to take an example from a BESM one shot that seems completely appropriate: An Exalt is expected to not only cut the planet in half with a sword, but also sew it back together with thread all in the same stunt.

[Doc Roc]

SurlySeraph isn't joking, then. You really do need to ban almost all of the Sidereal Martial Arts(I believe, crud, the one in Glories of the Most High: Maidens? is okay). Otherwise, well, it's not much of a game.

There's also the issue that Inter-splat equality isn't assumed.

Frig all. Can you guys help me draw up a preliminary ban list then? We're not fixing anything yet, we're just going to hack and slash until the broken bits are pushed back a bit.

[Urpriest]

Frig all. Can you guys help me draw up a preliminary ban list then? We're not fixing anything yet, we're just going to hack and slash until the broken bits are pushed back a bit.

Well you'd probably want to choose one of the "tiers" of Exalted and stick to it. Solaroids (Solars, Abyssals, and Infernals) offer the most variety and include most peoples' play experience. Lunars are intentionally weaker than these, with Sidereals weaker than them and Dragonbloods and the like weaker in turn.

[Tavar]

Sticking to Celestial Tier or above would probably be sufficient. Beyond that...
Only Sidereal Martial Art Allowed is Sapphire Veils of Passion.

I'm not too confident about Ink Monkey material, so I'd say just leave it all out, at least in the beginning. Oh, and make sure you're using the latest errata. Many charms are completely re-written.

[Doc Roc]

Sticking to Celestial Tier or above would probably be sufficient. Beyond that...
Only Sidereal Martial Art Allowed is Sapphire Veils of Passion.

I'm not too confident about Ink Monkey material, so I'd say just leave it all out, at least in the beginning. Oh, and make sure you're using the latest errata. Many charms are completely re-written.

Dear Tavar,
I am still short an ST.

Cordially,
Jake

[Tavar]

Well....I'd be up for it, I guess. But I'd want to know a bit more about what the test of spite entails. I remember it's a versus game, but not much more.

[IthilanorStPete]

Yay, returninations! I will totally be in for Legend, though I'm staying well clear of Exalted or 7th Sea.

[Amphetryon]

There was some preliminary discussion about adding Changeling to the ToS lists; I presume it was determined to be unworkable for some logistical reason?

[Doc Roc]

Couldn't find a ref, really.

[SurlySeraph]

Frig all. Can you guys help me draw up a preliminary ban list then? We're not fixing anything yet, we're just going to hack and slash until the broken bits are pushed back a bit.

Likely bans:
All the SMAs except Sapphire Veils of Passion.
Celestial Monkey Style
Ebon Shadow Style, or at least Distracting Finger Gesture
(For the above, there are some good fixes here. (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=32971))

I don't think banning all Ink Monkeys will be necessarily, but Lightspeed Body Dynamics probably should be banned; it pretty much outclasses every build involving a 2/7 filter that doesn't have it, and "You must be a Solar with the following Charms to win" is what we want to avoid.

Void Avatar Prana is banned. Baaaannnned.

Anyone who asks to use pre-errata versions of charms from Dreams of the First Age should be punched. Anyone who asks to use Zeal should be fed to Metagaos.

I'd like to hear other players' opinions, but I think Akuma should be banned. In the game, the main drawback to being an akuma is that you're the absolute slave of a deranged and short-tempered Primordial. Absolute, like "She took out your brain and filled your head with silver sand so you can't think independently ever again." Here, though, that's not so big a drawback, and it becomes basically free access to one Yozi's charmset.

The flaws and merits from Scroll of Heroes probably should be banned. If not all of them, then certainly the 3-dot version of Double Jointed (let's give players +3 to all Dexterity checks for less than what it costs to raise Dexterity from 1 to 2!), Paragon of [Virtue] (let's let players be more virtuous than the Unconquered Sun for virtually no investment!), Brutal Attack (hey, Lunars in ludicrously strong forms hit really hard but don't hit all that accurately. Let's let them get an extra 7 or more attack dice for virtually no cost!), Special Sense (heat vision, telepathy, echolocation and Essence Sight? Not as mutations, as things you can just do? What?), and flaws that will have absolutely no negative effect in combat like Sterile and Dark Secret.

Seriously consider not giving mote and willpower awards for stunts. Stunts are very subjective, and we want to focus on objective mechanics; and it's hard to maintain a paranoia combo without stunting back willpower, and as I suggested above I'd prefer that this be set up in a way that rewards trying things other than squeezing out the most mote-efficient paranoia combo possible.

Restrictions on escaping the arena/ planar travel should exist, though it's worth having a big arena.

You know how in ToS, seduction and similar social shenanigans were banned for reasons of verisimilitude? Exalted is different. There are plenty of mechanics for trying to convince the fate ninja or house-sized blur of fur and rage or demonic rockstar or what have you to stop trying to rip your kidneys out and give you a kiss, and those mechanics should see use.


Well you'd probably want to choose one of the "tiers" of Exalted and stick to it. Solaroids (Solars, Abyssals, and Infernals) offer the most variety and include most peoples' play experience. Lunars are intentionally weaker than these, with Sidereals weaker than them and Dragonbloods and the like weaker in turn.

I'd be all for mixing tiers. ToS didn't ban non-wizards, and it's always fun when someone figures out how to make something weak do something really powerful. (I have a couple ideas for lower-tier characters, actually, but I'm not going to say what they are yet. :smallwink:)

[Doc Roc]

We won't be banning tiers, but we will probably require you to register your build if it is an exceptional tier (0th, or 3rd or lower). I like this set of initial bans, but holy crap, it's pretty extensive, huh?

The arenas are always basically inescapable. We may need some pretty cool maps though, since most Exalts have access to flight pretty quickly, huh?

[SurlySeraph]

Most of the bans are basically "No, you do not get infinite motes and/or infinite perfect defenses that easily," with a little "You don't get things that circumvent perfect defenses that easily, either." And most of those are due to one author, Dean Shomshak, who writes lovely fluff but less lovely mechanics.

Flight depends; Lunars can be giant murderbirds immediately, but I think most Exalts rely on equipment for flight before Essence 4. Though really fast movement and flawless balance aren't hard to get. Keeping track of squares kinda isn't the point, though; if there's cover, things to climb on, and things to do totally awesome ninja-flips off of, all's good.

It's easier to use the tiers by splat type (Solaroids, Lunars, Sidereals, Dragonbloods, Little Wimpy Things) than to try to translate them into the normal ToS tier system. Especially because I'm fairly sure no completely unkillable builds work with the most recent errata. :smalltongue:

[Tavar]

Flight can be a bit hard, but super-human balancing is really easy. There are very easy to get scene length charms that allow you to, say, balance on anything as long as it's wider than a human hair. Or walk up walls/ceiling.

One thing that might be a problem is that, currently, Fair Folk can have some extremely nasty tricks. Like, I shape your equipment into water, and no IPP doesn't do crap.

[Doc Roc]

Flight can be a bit hard, but super-human balancing is really easy. There are very easy to get scene length charms that allow you to, say, balance on anything as long as it's wider than a human hair. Or walk up walls/ceiling.

One thing that might be a problem is that, currently, Fair Folk can have some extremely nasty tricks. Like, I shape your equipment into water, and no IPP doesn't do crap.

I'm not terribly excited about water-for-gear. Make this problem go away, please. :)

[Mr.Bookworm]

I'm not terribly excited about water-for-gear. Make this problem go away, please. :)

It's a part of the game, though, and not really a unbalanced one. Just like you need to prepare for spellcasters in D&D, you need to prepare for things like Shaping in Exalted. If you start banning anything that could be possibly be unbalanced in Exalted, we're going to be playing Burning Wheel with Exalted fluff.

And anyway, doing that won't work on the really important equipment, Artifacts.

EDIT: And I'm not familiar with the Test of Spite, but you organize by character power and optimization, right? If so, you don't need to ban all of the SMAs, only a few of them (Obsidian Shards of Infinity for absolute brokenness and Quicksilver Hand of Dreams for being more poorly defined then you want in an op-fu contest). Just note that most SMA characters will be high tier.

[Doc Roc]

It's a part of the game, though, and not really a unbalanced one. Just like you need to prepare for spellcasters in D&D, you need to prepare for things like Shaping in Exalted. If you start banning anything that could be possibly be unbalanced in Exalted, we're going to be playing Burning Wheel with Exalted fluff.

And anyway, doing that won't work on the really important equipment, Artifacts.

That sounds like a wonderful game, actually.

[Mr.Bookworm]

That sounds like a wonderful game, actually.

Hah. That would be awesome.

Also, I'm not very familiar with the Test of Spite, but you organize by character power and optimization, right? If so, you don't need to ban all of the SMAs, only a few of them. Obsidian Shards of Infinity for absolute brokenness and Quicksilver Hand of Dreams for being more poorly defined then you want in an op-fu contest, to start. Sapphire Veils of Passion is the best one, but Charcoal March of Spiders, Citrine Poxes of Contagion, and Prismatic Arrangement of Creation are relatively decent. Just note that most SMA characters will be high tier.

And I'm kind of waffly on the banning stunts thing. On the one hand, it's a fundamental part of the game, and is really part of what makes Exalted so cool. On the other hand, they are what really power paranoia combat, since it assumes that you'll be two-die stunting for WP or mote gain every action.

Maybe stunts don't regain you motes or WP, but you still get the dice?

EDIT: Also, social combat ToS fights would be very cool. Maybe shaping fights for Fair Folk, too? Hell, maybe even bureaucratic nation fights with the Mandate of Heaven rules.

[Tavar]

Actually, I believe the current readying is that Principle of Worlds would allow you to change the laws of physics so that, say, Iron and the Magical Materials flow like water instead of normal. Now, unless the effect would cause cause immediate and undodgeable/blockable harm to you, Integrity Protecting Prana doesn't protect against it, and IPP doesn't protect your items specifically, just you. This is obviously stupid and abusive, but there you go.

[Doc Roc]

Folks, let's take this discussion live, please. Hop in the ToS Chat.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Actually, I believe the current readying is that Principle of Worlds would allow you to change the laws of physics so that, say, Iron and the Magical Materials flow like water instead of normal. Now, unless the effect would cause cause immediate and undodgeable/blockable harm to you, Integrity Protecting Prana doesn't protect against it, and IPP doesn't protect your items specifically, just you. This is obviously stupid and abusive, but there you go.

Unless I am completely misremembering my rules, attuned items are considered to be a part of you, so IPP would protect them.

Not to mention, what laws of physics? You can go out and kill the God of Gravity, screw up the Loom of Fate, mess with the Shinma, and other stuff, but Creation runs on completely different laws of reality then Earth.

[Belobog]

I understand why Exalted in on the block, though I personally think it's going to be boring, but why 7th Sea?

[Tavar]

Where is the IrC? I can't go on right now, but that would be nice information to have. And, this is from the Exalted forums, on fair folk, and the author is meschlum;

Invulnerability 101: Principle of Worlds allows one to change the environment without damaging people. This can affect their property, and the victims no longer have Glamor Resistance as a way to avoid it.

So you drop a Principle of Worlds where cold iron and the Magical Materials are liquids. Something highly acidic, say, so they'll melt their way into the ground in a shapeless and unusable mass. Farewell, artifact weapons, cold iron defenses against Fair Folk Charms, and other annoyances.

[IthilanorStPete]

The IRC can be accessed via mibbit; see the link in my sig

[Doc Roc]

I understand why Exalted in on the block, though I personally think it's going to be boring, but why 7th Sea?

Because we had an immediate volunteer to referee it, in part, and because we want to see if it can be made crazily fun. It looks like it should be possible, with some TLC, to rip an amazing dueling game out of 7th Sea.

[Mr.Bookworm]

What? Principle of Worlds? No.

PoW can only be used to craft land. You can't use it to rewrite reality unless you're using an incredibly liberal interpretation of "landscape", which the text of the Charm supports in no way.

And even if you could, you have to use it on a waypoint you control, and then evoke it into Creation, which doesn't actually replace the area you put it in, but adds in important landmarks from the Wyld. It doesn't replace Creation wholesale.

[Tavar]

Looks like the original poster was mistaken.

Again, though, can you please post a link to this chat? Without that it's kinda hard to find it.

[IthilanorStPete]

Mine and Doc Roc's sigs have a link.

[Doc Roc]

Mine and Doc Roc's sigs have a link.

OP now also contains the link, and no longer displays my sig.

EDIT: Both links have been fixed, narrowly avoiding a horrible diaspora.

[Tavar]

So, here's my current rules Exalted.

Exalted character Creation Rules:


Due to resources available, only Solars, Dragonblooded, Lunars, Sidereal, Abyssals, Gods, Elementals, and Ghosts are currently allowed in the game.
Characters gain free Ox-body Meditation charms(or equivalent charm) equal to their natural Essence. These don't count for the purpose of prerequisites, or limitations on how many times you can take it.
Solars and Abyssals gain 5 free Excelencies from their caste or favored abilites, max of one free per ability.
Lunars gain 2 free excelencies from their caste or Favored attributes.
Dragonblooded and Sidereals gain 4 free excelencies from their caste, aspect, favored, or auspicious abilities.
Sorcery initiation charms give the appropriate counter spell charm for free.
Articulated plate and Superheavy Plate artifact armors from the core book have their artifact rating reduced by 2.
Artifact armors from the core book have hearthstone sockets equal to [artifact rating-1], after adjustemts mentioned above.
Lunars use these chargen rules (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Peter_Schaefer_on_Lunar_Character_ Generation)
Most current Errata is used, including character creation.
Inkmonkeys material is allowed.
Stunts currently give neither motes nor willpower.



Ban List


Lightspeed Body Dynamics
Distracting Finger Gesture, from Ebon Shadow Style.
Void Avatar Prana
Sidereal Martial Arts besides Saphire Veils of Passion
Charms that have been removed by errata, or pre-errata versions of charms. Make sure you know what your charms do!
Merits and Flaws as found in Scroll of Heroes.
Akuma
This list is subject to change.

[meschlum]

Just ran into this.

On water for gear: by the book, possessions can be affected by Principle of Worlds. By the errata, the method provided for protecting your possessions no longer exists. I concur that it's rather insane, but that leads me to ranting about the Fair Folk errata, which isn't especially productive.


On flight: a starting character with 2bp to spare can fly, for 1 committed mote.
1 bp: Get a Grace
1 bp: Get a 1-dot Adjuration with Gossamer Wing Flight. You can now fly at your full move speed, and don't even need wings to do so.


On Fair Folk power: point for point, in a straight up fight, they are weaker than Celestial Exalts. That's a given. However, Grace Magic has a lot of similarities to 3.5e's Epic Spellcasting. Sure, the 'seeds' are less world breaking (mostly), but the ability to custom design for any circumstance you can imagine is in full bloom.


On relevance: since they're not in the approved books, there is no need to worry about them!

[Bucky]

Test of Spite has launched. New thread is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198030).