Soulknife

[SlashRunner]

Me and my players are very inexperienced, and one of my players is planning to make a Soulknife. I've read that Soulknives are a weak choice, but he claims that he's figured out a build that will make him very strong (something about crits). Is he just gimping himself (which will make it less enjoyable later on) or is he actually on to something?

[mabriss lethe]

More than likely, he's not really onto anything. All the soulknife really does is provide you with a magic weapon inferior to one you could purchase.

But hey, I could be wrong. I'd love to see someone find some loophole somewhere that gave soulknives a kick into high gear. (The soulknife is like the "special cousin" in a family reunion, Sitting in the corner, eating his own snot, but you love him anyway.)

[Hirax]

He's gimping himself, unless the others in the party are also going to play low tier/low power characters.

[SlashRunner]

The rest of the party includes a Wizard, Cleric, Barbarian, and a Fighter.
My understanding of his build is that he's gonna take a bunch of stuff that increases his critical threat range. He claims that at 20th level, he'll be able to threaten crit on 13 or higher (I don't know exactly what his plan is, so I can't check his math. Needless to say, he's probably wrong.)

[Zanatos777]

That still isn't very good. Both the Fighter and Barb will likely out-damage him. Crits are also useless against many (common) creature types. Soulknives as far as I know cannot use weapon crystals to augment themselves.

Also yes his math is probably wrong.

[Hirax]

The rest of the party includes a Wizard, Cleric, Barbarian, and a Fighter.
My understanding of his build is that he's gonna take a bunch of stuff that increases his critical threat range. He claims that at 20th level, he'll be able to threaten crit on 13 or higher (I don't know exactly what his plan is, so I can't check his math. Needless to say, he's probably wrong.)

If I were to assume the role of someone in this party, right now the soulknife would be the last on my wishlist with what I know.

[Alchemistmerlin]

Let 'im play what he wants. Who cares if its weak? That's not what the game is about.

[SlashRunner]

I think he's just gotten the idea that mindblade=lightsaber. One thing to note is that he got ridiculously lucky with his rolls (2 18's and a 16), so that should affect things a bit. Do you guys think that I should let him gimp himself?

[Moriato]

I wonder if he's aware that most things that improve a weapon's threat range do not stack anymore in 3.5?

Regardless, it doesn't sound like the build he's planning on using requires soul knife at all, it's just a crit build and would probably be more powerful without the soul knife levels.

[Hirax]

I agree with Alchemistmerlin, but yeah, even with his high stats the character's power potential is very limited. I've played soulknives before (though always with homebrew applied), they're very fun, but being stuck with just your mindblade can be a huge disadvantage.

[JKTrickster]

Depends. Is he the type that would sulk if his character was inferior to the others? Does he always want to contribute, and hates being pushed to the side? How high are his expectations? Does he imagine himself as Obi-Wan or just a guy with a pointy stick that shines?

Basically, it depends on the player. Some have no problem with being "weak" while others would feel as if they're being cheated (out of their character concept).

[Flickerdart]

Show him the Soulbow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2).

[Etrivar]

Basically, it depends on the player. Some have no problem with being "weak" while others would feel as if they're being cheated (out of their character concept).

You've got the right of it. The only way that he isn't going to feel outshined is if the wizard and the cleric are played extremely poorly, and the barbarian and the fighter are played a little poorly, and aren't given even mediocre magic weapons.

But if being a combat power-house isn't as important to him as flavor, then he should by all means play a soulknife.

And does any one have a link to some homebrew soulknife fixes for the OP, in case he feels inclined to help the player out?

[SlashRunner]

The player in question is not the sulky kind, but he certainly would not enjoy being weaker than the rest.

[MeeposFire]

Show him the Soulbow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2).

Yes the soulbow. They are awesome. They have to raise a soulknife's tier by one considering the boost to versatility, less mad, and more BAB (at least RAW wise anyway).

[Hirax]

And does any one have a link to some homebrew soulknife fixes for the OP, in case he feels inclined to help the player out?

One that I've used is just to combine PsyWar/Soulknife/fighter. In a recent thread it was aptly described as basically being a psychic warrior with bigger numbers. Basically just take a psychic warrior and give it full BAB and soulknife abilities. Though come to think of it you could basically just stick soulknife abilities on to any class as a fix. IE, just let him be a ranger with a mindblade. The wizard and cleric still have more power potential in any of those cases, and depending on how the melee characters build themselves, he'll be on par with them.

[Flickerdart]

The Psychic Warrior has an ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) called Soulbound Weapon, which is better than the Soulknife by itself.

[Coidzor]

Or even the Totemist or a fixed Soulborn.

[Bang!]

Is this the 3.0, 3.5 or pathfinder soulknife?

I'm honestly not sure how 3.0 psionics worked, but that Soulknife looked like the psionic analog of the Assassin PrC. It seemed like a solid, but not gamebreaking, option for a psychic rogue-type.

In 3.5, it's a really weak base class. It sounds like the guy's going to be disappointed if he thinks it's going to be a powerhouse. That's not to say it's unplayable - I'd use it without a second thought, but for someone trying to powergame, it's going to be a letdown. I don't know how you feel about 3rd party materials, but Dreamscarred Press made some tweaks to the class (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/mind-blade-feats) to make it suck a bit less and also wrote some feats (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/mind-blade-feats) that basically recreate the Soulknife without eating class levels.

I haven't seen Pathfinder's Soulknife since the playtest, but it got a huge power boost from 3.5. It was running with the Warblade and Barbarian in terms of power level and versatility. I'm not sure how it changed between then and its release.

[Dragonmuncher]

I wouldn't be surprised if he was making a mistake with the critical stacking rules (that is, "Keen" and "Improved Critical" don't stack and the like).


Psychic Warriors are much cooler, anyway.

[SlashRunner]

I believe that Keen+Improved Critical was the whole basis of his build. I'll make sure to inform him that his "genius" build is unplayable.

[JKTrickster]

And actually, criting on a 13 really isn't that...stellar. If he thinks that's OP then maybe he actually is suited for lower powered play. After all, 13 actually isn't that OP when it comes to threatening criticals...

[Flickerdart]

The only way of stacking crit range in 3.5 that I can recall off-hand is through Psonic Weapon Master, which allows you to add an extra +2 to your critical range if you already had the Improved Critical feat for the weapon. Any weapon with a base critical range of 18-20 becomes 13-20 that way. I think there might be one or two other ways of doing it.

[SlashRunner]

He isn't very suited to low power play, believe me. I've known him for around 7 years. He just is, like the rest of us, new to D&D, and hasn't played any high-powered games. Therefore, threatening on 13 seems extremely good to him.

[Greenish]

My understanding of his build is that he's gonna take a bunch of stuff that increases his critical threat range. He claims that at 20th level, he'll be able to threaten crit on 13 or higher (I don't know exactly what his plan is, so I can't check his math. Needless to say, he's probably wrong.)As others have pointed out, the crit range increasers don't stack in 3.5. The best you can get (without grandfathering 3.0 content in) is 15-20.

I think he's just gotten the idea that mindblade=lightsaber. One thing to note is that he got ridiculously lucky with his rolls (2 18's and a 16), so that should affect things a bit. Do you guys think that I should let him gimp himself?No, not really. Preferably, have him look here:

The Psychic Warrior has an ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) called Soulbound Weapon, which is better than the Soulknife by itself.Soulknife would work better if it was a feat, a chain of feats, or a PrC (which I've heard it was in 3.0).

[Doc Roc]

Let 'im play what he wants. Who cares if its weak? That's not what the game is about.

It can be, when you get brutally murdered by mooks and the world ends. Don't you want to save the world?



The only way of stacking crit range in 3.5 that I can recall off-hand is through Psonic Weapon Master, which allows you to add an extra +2 to your critical range if you already had the Improved Critical feat for the weapon. Any weapon with a base critical range of 18-20 becomes 13-20 that way. I think there might be one or two other ways of doing it.

Disciple of Dispater, which is actually a really rather good class on a few other counts, contributing spell-like assists to your frail fightery flesh.

[MeeposFire]

It can be, when you get brutally murdered by mooks and the world ends. Don't you want to save the world?




Disciple of Dispater, which is actually a really rather good class on a few other counts, contributing spell-like assists to your frail fightery flesh.

Well that would be "grandfathering in 3.0 stuff" but it is legit. They never updated it though that also means just like the shou disciple you need to make some decisions about whether certain things should be updated if you use them or should you leave them alone.

[Flickerdart]

Soulknife would work better if it was a feat, a chain of feats, or a PrC (which I've heard it was in 3.0).
It was. Got 3rd level powers, 5d6 SA, +5 mind blade and Con damage/drain.

[Zaq]

That still isn't very good. Both the Fighter and Barb will likely out-damage him. Crits are also useless against many (common) creature types. Soulknives as far as I know cannot use weapon crystals to augment themselves.

Also yes his math is probably wrong.

Funny thing about that. By my reading of RAW, a Soulknife with a sufficiently high enhancement bonus to his mind blade can attach a lesser or greater augment crystal to it, but he can never attach a least augment crystal, because a mind blade isn't masterwork. (Lessers require +1, greaters require +3, and leasts require masterwork. A mind blade can be two of these things.)

[Zanatos777]

Funny thing about that. By my reading of RAW, a Soulknife with a sufficiently high enhancement bonus to his mind blade can attach a lesser or greater augment crystal to it, but he can never attach a least augment crystal, because a mind blade isn't masterwork. (Lessers require +1, greaters require +3, and leasts require masterwork. A mind blade can be two of these things.)

Okay that is really hilarious (especially since the ones he wants are the least). Where would the crystal go? Would it just float in the mindblade?

Also I just looked at the soulknife, they have a limited list of enhancements they can apply to their mindblades, also they cannot benefit from Greater Magic Weapon like other classes as far as I can tell. There really isn't anything good but the flavor about this class is there.

[Aspenor]

Tell him to play a Psychic Warrior instead, and manifest the power that gives him a weapon just like the Soulknife. Viola, Soulknife, but much better.

Soulknife: "Hai gais! I havs a magic weapon!"
Everyone else: "So what?"
Soulknife: "But I make it with my MIND!!!!"
Everyone else: "I guess it's not worth killing you for your loot, then..."

[SurlySeraph]

The only way of stacking crit range in 3.5 that I can recall off-hand is through Psonic Weapon Master, which allows you to add an extra +2 to your critical range if you already had the Improved Critical feat for the weapon. Any weapon with a base critical range of 18-20 becomes 13-20 that way. I think there might be one or two other ways of doing it.

Also the Streetfighter (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) ACF for Barbarians. Everything else I know of is 3.0 material.

With that said, with Disciple of Dispater and the 3.0 Weapon Master PrC (legal if you don't consider Exotic Weapon Master as an updated version of it! :smalltongue:), a 6-20 crit is perfectly doable. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871778/Optimized_Critical_Character?post_id=338416574) Also doable if you can get 8 levels of DoD *and* 7 levels of Psychic Weapon Master into a build, which I can't find a way to do without effects that give you extra hit dice never mind, it also requires 7 levels of Streetfighter barbarian. I mean, Barbarian 7/ Ardent 1/ DoD 8/ Psychic Weapon Master 7 would do it, but there are much worse things you can do at ECL 23 than having a high crit range.

[Daverin]

Funny thing about that. By my reading of RAW, a Soulknife with a sufficiently high enhancement bonus to his mind blade can attach a lesser or greater augment crystal to it, but he can never attach a least augment crystal, because a mind blade isn't masterwork. (Lessers require +1, greaters require +3, and leasts require masterwork. A mind blade can be two of these things.)

Wait, I thought the general rule is that for an item to have an item enhancement, it was inherently masterwork? :smallconfused:

Or is this one of those glaring flaws in how Wizards wrote this class out? Is there any chance that it could be interpreted that the blade should be masterwork if it gets the enhancements? I have not really read the soulknife, even with the supplement, simply because it is said to be so weak, and I do think that concept, as presented, is at best worthy of a feat or power.

[tyckspoon]

Your player may also have the mistaken idea that any roll in the crit threat range is an automatic hit, which if it were true would make a crit-fisher build an appreciably better idea.

[Telok]

I think that just giving the Soulknife full BaB, access to all the magic weapon enhancements, and moving the bonus enhancements up to the same levels as the base +1/+2/etc works fine.

It seems to kick them up to about the level of a good fighter/psiwar by giving them a free weapon at least as good as they could buy.

[SlashRunner]

So, if anyone could point me to some good Soulknife variant or something that won't gimp him, I'll just have him convert his current concept to a better one before next session (tomorrow) and dissuade him from his unplayable crit build.

[Bang!]

Here's (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) the Psychic Warrior ACF that this board likes the most (just search for "Soulbound Weapon"). I'm not a huge fan of it because it only retains the weapon from the Soulknife class and it abandons the stealth aspect almost entirely. Also, it eats a combat action summoning its weapon each time, which even with Link Power is a pretty major downer, IMO.

Here's (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/soulknife) the Dreamscarred Press Soulknife. It keeps most of the original framework, just speeds some things up, adds some weapon enhancements (Bane being the most notable), adds some skills and bonus feats, and makes a generally interesting class out of it.

Here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19537758/Soulknife_Fixes_Index) is a collection of Homebrew fixes. The two that stand out to me are this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19522550/Heart_Shaper,_a_Sublime_Soulknife_%28PEACH%29) one, which uses Tome of Battle Mechanics, and this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19523706/The_Lurkblade_%28Soulknife_meets_Lurk%29) one, which recycles the Lurk's Augment mechanic in an interesting way.