How Do I Keep Up?

[DeadManSleeping]

Okay, guys, here's the score. I started playing D&D right around when 3.0 came out. I was pretty young at the time. I kept up faithfully with the expansions, like psionics, and the Complete books. However, a few years ago, I got into other RPGs, and I stopped paying attention to expansions, or to general D&D info. Now, I never really stopped liking D&D period, but I never got around to playing it for a while.

And now I can't get back in.

Since I stopped playing, stuff like Tome of Battle has come out, and optimization has become a lot more scientific (the tier system didn't exist before I stopped playing, or at least, it was not at all popular). And now I don't have any clue how I'm supposed to play, because I've been reduced to n00b-level knowledge of what seems almost necessary to be on the same level as most groups.

Halp?

[Allanimal]

Depends on the group you play with. if they aren't optimizers, play whatever sounds fun, don't worry about it and have fun.

If your group is more optimization-oriented, figure our a concept that sounds like fun to play, focus on that and ask for help from your fellow players.

[Kylarra]

Well, the internet exaggerates the problem to an extent.

First you need to find a group. Then find out how that group plays. Optimize to that level as needed.

An easy way to stay effective while not needing to worry too much about optimization is to play "pre-optimized" classes like the ToB classes, Duskblade, Dragonfire Adept and so on. If you have lots of free time, pick a class you like and read handbooks about them. Play moar.

[McSmack]

Don't panic! You're reading a forum full of optimizers arguing about optimaiztion. And that's not what DnD is really about. It's about having fun. If everyone at the table is having fun then you're doing it right. So don't sweat it. Some folks have fun pushing the rules others have fun just playing their characters. It's all good.

So pick up the core 3.5 and read it. Then, start reading splat books that look interesting to you. Don't worry about tiers, or ToB, or Incarnum. Just start back with the basics; hit up the 3 core books and go from there.

The great thing is Wizard's isn't publishing 3.5 anymore, so you'll catch up eventually.

[Lord Vampyre]

Honest answer: you don't have to. And I wouldn't worry about it, the game is about having fun. It isn't a competition. When you find a group, just ask for advice about the character you want to make. You can always come to boards to get help with optimizing your character, but by asking for advice from your gaming group, it'll cause your character to be at about roughly the same optimization level as everyone else in the group.

If you're really interested in being a grand optimizer, just follow the boards. Ask for help with your character builds, you'll probably get a lot of different opinions (based on what I've seen so far). It'll take time, but so does every other skill that we wish to cultivate.

[Yora]

I still play mostly with people who never played any D&D with only PHB, DMG, MM and Expanded Psionic Handbook. And I think none of them have any idea what the word optimization means.

[Doc Roc]

Okay, guys, here's the score. I started playing D&D right around when 3.0 came out. I was pretty young at the time. I kept up faithfully with the expansions, like psionics, and the Complete books. However, a few years ago, I got into other RPGs, and I stopped paying attention to expansions, or to general D&D info. Now, I never really stopped liking D&D period, but I never got around to playing it for a while.

And now I can't get back in.

Since I stopped playing, stuff like Tome of Battle has come out, and optimization has become a lot more scientific (the tier system didn't exist before I stopped playing, or at least, it was not at all popular). And now I don't have any clue how I'm supposed to play, because I've been reduced to n00b-level knowledge of what seems almost necessary to be on the same level as most groups.

Halp?

Step into my dojo. Click the second link in my thread, and join one of the most accidentally secretive optimization communities around.


Don't panic! You're reading a forum full of optimizers arguing about optimization. Full of optimizers...?
And that's not what DnD is really about.
Hum. Is this so, people? ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?

[term1nally s1ck]

Be nice, Doc. They'll learn eventually. Maybe. :smalltongue:

If you come poking around the NED, ToS, Arena, or ToDE, you'll learn at least the basics about a lot of things. Make a character, ask for advice, the communities for all of them are very very helpful.

[Doc Roc]

Be nice, Doc. They'll learn eventually. Maybe. :smalltongue:


Sorry, not my finest day at work! Could you step into new-chat, T_S?

[DeadManSleeping]

Be nice, Doc. They'll learn eventually. Maybe. :smalltongue:

If you come poking around the NED, ToS, Arena, or ToDE, you'll learn at least the basics about a lot of things. Make a character, ask for advice, the communities for all of them are very very helpful.

You do realize that abbreviations are only for situations where the full phrase will be understood, right? :smalltongue:

I guess I just don't want to be the guy playing a regular character in a party with a cleric, a wizard, and a swordsage or whatever.

[term1nally s1ck]

Test of Spite was Doc Roc's high opt 3.5 thing, it's still worth reading through the fights. NED and ToDE are in my sig.

[Pigkappa]

If the other players aren't experienced optimizers: the problem doesn't exist.

If they are experienced optimizers but they try to calm down: ask them to be in a better tier (e.g. be the party wizard) and read something on the web if you're still worse than them.

If they are experienced optimizers and they all try to break the game as much as possible: your party will win every fight in 1 round, and this won't be fun. Unless you have to fight with equally optimized enemies: in this case, your party will win or be TPKed every time in 1 round and I can't see how this can be fun either.

[Zaq]

You do realize that abbreviations are only for situations where the full phrase will be understood, right? :smalltongue:

I guess I just don't want to be the guy playing a regular character in a party with a cleric, a wizard, and a swordsage or whatever.

But you too can be a swordsage, if you want to be. In fact, I'd highly recommend a Tome of Battle character. They're very forgiving and it's hard to make an actively bad one. (I did once see someone horribly screw up a Warblade, but he was an idiot.)

[term1nally s1ck]

If the other players aren't experienced optimizers: the problem doesn't exist.

If they are experienced optimizers but they try to calm down: ask them to be in a better tier (e.g. be the party wizard) and read something on the web if you're still worse than them.

If they are experienced optimizers and they all try to break the game as much as possible: your party will win every fight in 1 round, and this won't be fun. Unless you have to fight with equally optimized enemies: in this case, your party will win or be TPKed every time in 1 round and I can't see how this can be fun either.

Unless as the DM you optimise to match their offence with defence, to intentionally draw out fights for entertainment?

[SurlySeraph]

You don't have to. But reading handbook threads (Google [name of the class you want to play] + handbook), asking people on this or other forums how to make a powerful character with whatever traits you're looking for, and reading books that are fairly dense in useful things like ToB or Complete Champion can be useful if you want to learn more.


Full of optimizers...?

Well, not compared to Brilliant Gameologists, but maybe by typical DnD group standards.

[Doc Roc]

You don't have to. But reading handbook threads (Google [name of the class you want to play] + handbook), asking people on this or other forums how to make a powerful character with whatever traits you're looking for, and reading books that are fairly dense in useful things like ToB or Complete Champion can be useful if you want to learn more.



Well, not compared to Brilliant Gameologists, but maybe by typical DnD group standards.

Most gaming groups I know of have at least one person who claims to possess system mastery or an inclination towards being the power-oriented gamer.

[Doomboy911]

Don't play to win, play to play. If you do Dungeons and Dragons to let everyone know you're the top dog than you're always going to fall behind the munchkin and the DM (cause DMs have the best toys). If you play Dungeons and Dragons to have fun know one can really beat you.

[Doc Roc]

Don't play to win, play to play. If you do Dungeons and Dragons to let everyone know you're the top dog than you're always going to fall behind the munchkin and the DM (cause DMs have the best toys). If you play Dungeons and Dragons to have fun know one can really beat you.

Except the dragon, or possibly the dungeon. Or the dice. I mean, there's lots of ways to lose, and supposedly no way to win. Sort of like tic-tac-toe. Unless you're having fun, in which case, you're doing it right even if other people suffer. What I'm getting at is that there isn't a simple moral imperative that can be followed for joy-in-gaming. Sometimes things will break, sometimes dramatic moments will be ruined. Sometimes random chance will leave you impaled on a giant orc's sword.

Optimization is a way to minimize some of these problems, to help make fights less random and more tactical, to help make plots more approachable by giving characters more mechanistic levers to yank. Ways to make the game go. Optimization is a fun maker, not a fun taker.

[Popertop]

If the other players aren't experienced optimizers: the problem doesn't exist.

If they are experienced optimizers but they try to calm down: ask them to be in a better tier (e.g. be the party wizard) and read something on the web if you're still worse than them.

If they are experienced optimizers and they all try to break the game as much as possible: your party will win every fight in 1 round, and this won't be fun. Unless you have to fight with equally optimized enemies: in this case, your party will win or be TPKed every time in 1 round and I can't see how this can be fun either.

In my opinion, the most extreme end of optimization should be everyone having lots of immediate action options, that way the initiative system doesn't matter much anymore, and everything starts to become a lot more muddled and simultaneous, but not everyone likes games that confusing.

I like utter chaos, that way everyone is focused on what the hell is going on instead of who is most overpowered. Then you can have people watching it like a sporting event, providing play-by-play commentary.

This also brings up the whole "what is fun" conundrum.

Everyone has different ideas.
If you can kind of get a feel for this at the very beginning, that might save some time bickering over stupid stuff.