Urgent Question for the Playground!~

[Retech]

So I am wrecking ball with Bobo, the greatsword ape. So I am dueling with two other PCs (2 vs 1) at level 4. One of them is a Paladin, and has 45 hp. My ape just dealt 46 damage in a single blow, so the paladin should be unconscious.

The Paladin says that he can cast Heroes' defiance and escape death with lay on hands, but I don't think that he can, because at any point in the cycle, he is either at full hp (so no benefit) or he is unconscious.

Is there any RAW that has an interpretation on this? Who is right? For reference, Bobo is down to 4 hp and I am stuck in a bear trap, so it is unlikely that I can win unless the Paladin is knocked out. The Paladin also has 14 charisma, so that's why he has that spell at that level.

Our game is being decided in a few minutes.

[Yora]

Without knowing the ability in question, I would agree with your interpretation. Some abilities can be used to prevent something from happening, but to heal damage with lay on hands, the paladin would first have to suffer the damage before he could heal anything. So even when that other ability allows him to bring up a protection in response to an attack, he still would have to get to -1 hp first before being able to lay on hands.
Unless that ability allows him to perform actions while unconscious, he's out and that's it.

[Kylarra]

Well... Hero's defiance (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/spells/heroSDefiance.html) would seem to be utterly useless if it couldn't be used in the manner that the paladin is trying to use it here.

[Yora]

Now I found it, it's Pathfinder.

In that case, No. Heroes Defiance is exactly for that kinf of situation the paladin is currently in.

[Metahuman1]

What is Hero's defiance from, what book?

And unless it gives him either the ability to stay alive and act while he's knocked out, heal's/Nerf's enough of the damage for him too be able too say standing till his turn, or gives him the ability to squeeze in Lay on Hands action in an instant that isn't suppose to exist between taking the damage and falling, I'd say your right, and he's out of here. Tuff luck for him, next time play a better class or a Paladin home-brew fix. If he want's I'll happily make him one.


Edit: Ok, hold everything. How many HP did he have before he got hit? Does he have enough healing to totally offset going into negatives? (At this point, Best bet it so get him passed out, worry about dead after that.)

[Retech]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/hero-s-defiance

[Douglas]

This (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/hero-s-defiance) is the spell in question, correct? The second sentence makes it pretty clear that the healing is applied after the damage but before any consequences of that damage. The Paladin is still up.

[Moriato]

Well... Hero's defiance (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/spells/heroSDefiance.html) would seem to be utterly useless if it couldn't be used in the manner that the paladin is trying to use it here.

I thought that at first too, but it would still be useful as long as it wasn't a single attack that brought you from full HP to a negative number.

Personally I would rule that it does work, but I can see both interpretations.

[McSmack]

Reading the spell description it looks like he'd be allowed to do it. The spell states that if the healing brings you above 0 you do not fall and can continue to act. That implies that the healing occurs after he takes the damage but before he falls.

[Metahuman1]

Ok, he's up, sadly, unless you knocked him down between 10 and 16 points below, depending on his D6 roll.

Wait, doesn't Pathfinder still make you roll a save vs. Taking more then half your HP in damage in one shot?

[Kylarra]

I thought that at first too, but it would still be useful as long as it wasn't a single attack that brought you from full HP to a negative number.

Personally I would rule that it does work, but I can see both interpretations.I didn't think about the multiple attack thing.

I would probably rule that it works as well. If it weren't PVP, I probably wouldn't give it a second thought, but given that it makes or breaks this particular fight, eh... I'd probably rule that it works still. Paladins need all the help they can get.

[Retech]

No worries, I just critted with spiritual weapon and now he's down again. :)

[Curious]

The spell seems specifically designed for this sort of thing, I'd say he's still up.

Edit: Well then, good on you.

[KillianHawkeye]

Wait, doesn't Pathfinder still make you roll a save vs. Taking more then half your HP in damage in one shot?

That's appears to be an optional rule in Pathfinder. And you need to take half your hp or 50 points of damage, whichever is greater, so it wouldn't apply regardless.

[stainboy]

I think this is what happens. Paladin's HP are in parentheses at the beginning of each step.


(45) Bobo rolls damage.
(45) In "the instant before [he is] reduced to 0 or fewer hit points," paladin activates Hero's Defiance.
(45) Paladin rolls healing, which does nothing because he is still at maximum hit points.
(45) Paladin checks to see if he is above 0 hit points after the healing, which he is. He therefore "[does] not fall, and may continue to act." This is irrelevant, because that would have been true anyway. (This part of the ability only matters if the paladin had exactly 0 HP before healing.)
(45) Paladin finishes resolving Hero's Defiance. As Hero's Defiance is Instantaneous, it is no longer active and cannot directly modify anything that happens after.
(-1) Bobo applies damage to paladin.
(-1) Paladin drops.


Hero's Defiance would matter only if the paladin were already down hit points. Say the paladin had 9 / 45 HP, and Bobo hit him for 12...


(9) Bobo rolls damage.
(9) Paladin pops Hero's Defiance.
(20) Paladin rolls healing, healing let's say 11 damage.
(20) Paladin checks to see if he as above 0 HP. Again, this part of the ability only matters if the paladin popped Hero's Defiance at exactly 0 HP before damage.
(20) Finished resolving Hero's Defiance.
(8) Bobo applies damage to paladin. Hero's Defiance has provided enough HP to keep the paladin up.

[grarrrg]

I'd just like to point out that a level 1 Paladin spell has the text "... above 0 hit points, you do not fall, and may..." (emphasis mine)

Just keep this in mind the next time your DM has evil thoughts.

[stainboy]

I'd just like to point out that a level 1 Paladin spell has the text "... above 0 hit points, you do not fall, and may..." (emphasis mine)
Just keep this in mind the next time your DM has evil thoughts.

You win the thread, and probably several future paladin threads.