Securing a Floating Metropolis

[Avalon2099]

Hi there,

I am a player in a friends ongoing campaign in the last campaign I was playing a Wizard who reached 15th level and was able to get ahold of a Mythal and use it to power our city, make it float and such. Now, our new characters, 2 generations later are doing things for our old characters who are now the NPCs. My wizard is now level 25, and I want to ideally keep anything I dont want in the city out via the Mythal or other magics, Money is NO issue, as the floating city is basically a floating Las Vegas, I dont know much about Mythals beyond what I have read in novels.

anyhelp would be appreciated

[Kuulvheysoon]

Hmmm.... I know that I saw mythal rules SOMEWHERE. I know that you can force a Spellcraft check to cast certain spells, but that's all I got off the top of my head.

Nitpick: If it's the same kind of mythal that the Netherese used to float mountains, it's not a mythal. It'd be a mythallar, which have some pretty interesting rules.

[Diarmuid]

If it's an NPC, and the character is 25th level....why not just say "This happens" and dont really worry about the mechanics of it?

[Telonius]

Well, it's a Cleric spell, but you could spam Hallow across the whole place, and attach Dimensional Anchor. Leave one well-defended point where people can teleport in. (Put your gift shop and tourist trap stuff right there). 5,000gp per casting of the spell, has to be renewed once per year. (Note: Make sure you cover all areas of the island, bottom as well, or you'll probably find some smartass with an Earth Elemental attacking you from below).

[Alabenson]

Hmmm.... I know that I saw mythal rules SOMEWHERE. I know that you can force a Spellcraft check to cast certain spells, but that's all I got off the top of my head.

Nitpick: If it's the same kind of mythal that the Netherese used to float mountains, it's not a mythal. It'd be a mythallar, which have some pretty interesting rules.

The rules for creating mythals are a variation of the epic spell creation rules, and can be found in Lost Empires of Faerun, pg. 45.

[Avalon2099]

If it's an NPC, and the character is 25th level....why not just say "This happens" and dont really worry about the mechanics of it?
Yeah, I would be inclined to think the same way, but the DM does not see it that way, technically I am playing both, one is simply more proactive in going out and dealing with crap the 25th level one apparently has to "show his work" if you will.

[Kuulvheysoon]

The rules for creating mythals are a variation of the epic spell creation rules, and can be found in Lost Empires of Faerun, pg. 45.

Awesome, thanks. Are the rules for creating mythallars hanging around there too? I know that there's SOME difference, but I know that you can create 'mythallar' magic items that need no crafting XP, but don't work outside of a mythallar's aura.

[Toliudar]

This is the true cost of Epic Spellcasting (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicSpells.htm) - a bunch of crappy and tedious book-keeping, if your DM's going to insist on details. I'd suggest investing in epic leadership and a bunch of followers for your 25th level godling, so that you can use them to mitigate the costs of all the funky broken things that you can accomplish.

[Diarmuid]

This is the true cost of Epic Spellcasting (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicSpells.htm) - a bunch of crappy and tedious book-keeping, if your DM's going to insist on details. I'd suggest investing in epic leadership and a bunch of followers for your 25th level godling, so that you can use them to mitigate the costs of all the funky broken things that you can accomplish.

Agreed. I think one of the FR books, perhaps the Silverymoon one, has some details on mythal and mythallar.

[Anxe]

Stronghold Builder's Guide? It lets you do stuff without really saying how you do it.

[Gamer Girl]

A Mythal to power a city? Ok, but does it have any powers? A 'normal' Mythral has lots of defensive powers(that's the point of a Mythral).

[Alleran]

A simple yet dirty trick with mythals is to have Wish, Miracle and possibly even an "Alamanther's Return" spell (FR - it allows you to duplicate any spell-like ability or spell of 8th level or below that you've seen) as vanguard spells. As I recall, the mythal covers any component costs, making them essentially freebies. Then add a Transcend Mortality effect as a prevalent power, making you nigh-indestructible while inside it.

As far as keeping people out, just create a prevalent power that generates a constant Antipathy spell (pump up the save DC as necessary). Allow people to avoid the effect by becoming attuned to the mythal, and you should be fine.

Long story short, mythals can be ridiculously overpowered without a lot of DM oversight. But that's true of all epic spells, I suppose.

[Ravens_cry]

If it's an NPC, and the character is 25th level....why not just say "This happens" and dont really worry about the mechanics of it?
Because what is the fun of that? I agree in a world of Mundane+, it can be satisfying in a mysterious way, the example that comes to mind is Romero zombie movies, but in a world where magic is so prevalent and understood people are willing to make a whole city float you're going to need something better in my opinion.
Multiple Reverse Gravity spells could be a basis. The foundation big enough that it sticks "out" of the effect.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Well, if you don't mind stationary, an insanely high CL for levitate (there's a weight limit, right?) could work.

Or, for lulz, use hundreds of Immovable Rods.

[Cog]

Levitate only targets creatures, alas.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Levitate only targets creatures, alas.

You know, I never saw that. Huh. You learn something new everyday.

And knowledge is power.

[Cog]

And knowledge is power.
Increasingly so if you are devoted to it.

[Ravens_cry]

You know, I never saw that. Huh. You learn something new everyday.

And knowledge is power.
Then the solution is obvious, cast an insanely high CL Animate object with Permanency, then Fly.

[Cog]

Here we go, inspired by Ravens_cry: give it a foundation of Colossal flying (Magic of Faerun) greatswords. They're magic items, so dispels only take them out temporarily; they're creatures, for whatever benefits you can wrangle out of that; if you swing things right you might be able to make them proficient with each other...

[Marnath]

There's already an epic spell that shears off mountain tops and turns them upside down for creating floating cities. In one of the FR books.

[Alleran]

There's already an epic spell that shears off mountain tops and turns them upside down for creating floating cities. In one of the FR books.
Proctiv's Move Mountain.

It has a 255 Spellcraft check to cast it or something like that, though.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Proctiv's Move Mountain.

It has a 255 Spellcraft check to cast it or something like that, though.

And let me guess - it doesn't make the mountain-top flat or anything - just chops it off.

Actually, now I'm really fond of the immovable rods. But the question is - would they remain geo-stationary, or would it slowly move around the world as it rotated?

[Cog]

But the question is - would they remain geo-stationary, or would it slowly move around the world as it rotated?
Once you start down that path, there's no ending it. Does the planet's orbit sweep it away from the rod? What about the primary star's orbit through the galaxy? What about the movement of that galaxy compared to the rest of the universe?

Better to just rule that it's stationary to the ground/planet/tectonic plate.

[ffone]

lulz, this has come up for my group too....I declared that 'stationary' / 'point of origin' things worked sort of like gravity (except for the absence of movement obviously), in that they "sense" the aggregate center of all naerby mass (or rather, of all other mass in the universe, but with influence inverse to distance-squared, like gravity) and use that as their reference point, both for absolute position and for their movement (so as all that mass rotates and arcs through space, so does the immovable rod or Hallow effect or whatever).

[Kuulvheysoon]

Yeah, geostationary will make life a lot easier. And make for a sweeeeet idea for a campaign - finding enough Rods to hold the damned thing in place, and figuring out how the hell to get it up there in the first place.

:smallconfused:

[Ravens_cry]

And let me guess - it doesn't make the mountain-top flat or anything - just chops it off.

Actually, now I'm really fond of the immovable rods. But the question is - would they remain geo-stationary, or would it slowly move around the world as it rotated?
If it didn't, it would not be an immovable rod. It would be a moving-at-potentially-over-one-thousand-miles-an-hour rod.

[ffone]

Yeah, geostationary will make life a lot easier. And make for a sweeeeet idea for a campaign - finding enough Rods to hold the damned thing in place, and figuring out how the hell to get it up there in the first place.

:smallconfused:

Another idea is that since carrying capacity is exponential in Str, if you can somehow stat up a construct-like creature with sufficient Str (animated object with Warhulk levels?) it could serve as the 'Atlas' for your city.

Downside is, if you expect an antagonistic DM...a single creature is much easier to disrupt/kill/compel (dozens of any save-or-die it's not immune to and it will roll a 1) . The 'floating swords' someone mentionted above sounds promising, because if you have a large set of creatures/objects, disabling enough of them simultaneously will require a really large area effect, or an antagonist with a very large reserve of hostile abilities. And the 'magic items are only temporary dispelled for 1d4 rounds' thing is great....disabling enough of them to drop the city will require a lot of dispelling resources or a huge-area epic dispel type effect. Hopefully your DM isn't a jerk who pulls out something like an Adamantine Horror with at-will Disjunction.

Really, it probably comes down to scouring books for some floating effect that the author forgot to give a weight limit to. Once you find one, use a bunch of copies of it (despite the lack of a weight limit), for failsafes if some are suppressed or destroyed.

[lightningcat]

Proctiv's Move Mountain.

It has a 255 Spellcraft check to cast it or something like that, though.

What book is that in? The only instence of that spell I know of is a 10th level spell from 2e.

[ffone]

Another idea!

IIRC the Beholder fluff - maybe it's detailed in Lords of Madness? - involves a fictitious gas (tistinium or some spelling like that) which is like super-helium....it has, for gravity purposes, negative mass and pulls stuff up. Use your favorite "wealth-abuse" type trick (repeated Major Creation type spells) to generate gobs of this raw substance, then build your city out of hollow cubes filled with it.

Many hollow cubes is also failsafe-stable, b/c if any one cube is punctured, it has little overall in effect. In fact, like a hot air balloon or diver, your city managers would periodically adjust the amount of gas up or down (let some go, or conjure some more) to keep it balanced for the total weight of the population and stuff in the city.

In RL I've actually seen boys make a homemade raft this way - cardboard boxes individually wrapped in trashbags, with enough wooden planks and duct tape so they keep their cube shape. They made a raft which looked ghetto as heck, but floated fine with like 8 guys riding it.

Of course, you could do the same thing with actual helium - but the fictitious gas won't require nearly as much volume. I dread to think how massive a zeppelin with a city hanging from it would have to be.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Another idea is that since carrying capacity is exponential in Str, if you can somehow stat up a construct-like creature with sufficient Str (animated object with Warhulk levels?) it could serve as the 'Atlas' for your city.

Downside is, if you expect an antagonistic DM...a single creature is much easier to disrupt/kill/compel (dozens of any save-or-die it's not immune to and it will roll a 1) . The 'floating swords' someone mentionted above sounds promising, because if you have a large set of creatures/objects, disabling enough of them simultaneously will require a really large area effect, or an antagonist with a very large reserve of hostile abilities. And the 'magic items are only temporary dispelled for 1d4 rounds' thing is great....disabling enough of them to drop the city will require a lot of dispelling resources or a huge-area epic dispel type effect. Hopefully your DM isn't a jerk who pulls out something like an Adamantine Horror with at-will Disjunction.

Really, it probably comes down to scouring books for some floating effect that the author forgot to give a weight limit to. Once you find one, use a bunch of copies of it (despite the lack of a weight limit), for failsafes if some are suppressed or destroyed.

Well, each rod can support 8000 pounds (silly, I know), so that's about 4 tons. Depending on the base of your structure, you might only need about 50/60 (200-240 tons). OF course, the 5000gp/rod price tag is kind of harsh, but I'm sure a metropolis like this would likely have an Artificer's guild, or something.

Yeah, a weight limitless spell/effect probably works best, though that does leave the possibility of a massive dispel. At least with items it's only suppressed for a handful of rounds.

But the best option here is clearly the mythal/mythallar. But that's epic magic, so it'll clearly top everything mundane.

[Alleran]

What book is that in? The only instence of that spell I know of is a 10th level spell from 2e.
Player's Guide to Faerun. It reworked some of the old 10th level spells as epic spells. Only 10th level stuff, though - 11th level would have Spellcraft DCs into the thousands, at a guess (e.g. that spell designed to completely seal an entire Crystal Sphere from all spelljamming planar travel no matter what).


And let me guess - it doesn't make the mountain-top flat or anything - just chops it off.
It slices off the top of the mountain, spins it upside down, and then levitates it for you.

(I was wrong about the Spellcraft DC. It's 280, and burns 5,000 XP in the casting.)

[Kuulvheysoon]

Player's Guide to Faerun. It reworked some of the old 10th level spells as epic spells. Only 10th level stuff, though - 11th level would have Spellcraft DCs into the thousands, at a guess (e.g. that spell designed to completely seal an entire Crystal Sphere from all spelljamming planar travel no matter what).


It slices off the top of the mountain, spins it upside down, and then levitates it for you.

(I was wrong about the Spellcraft DC. It's 280, and burns 5,000 XP in the casting.)

Huh, it levitates if for you too? Awesome. It is directed 'flight', or is it only capable of floating in the cast location?

[ffone]

Well, each rod can support 8000 pounds (silly, I know), so that's about 4 tons. Depending on the base of your structure, you might only need about 50/60 (200-240 tons). OF course, the 5000gp/rod price tag is kind of harsh, but I'm sure a metropolis like this would likely have an Artificer's guild, or something.

Yeah, a weight limitless spell/effect probably works best, though that does leave the possibility of a massive dispel. At least with items it's only suppressed for a handful of rounds.

Yeah, I meant try to find an *item* they forgot a weight limit for (spell effets are more likely to creature-targeted and depend on carrying capacity anyway).

IIRC Stronghold Builder's Guide has some lightweight rules for this; the price of things like "Make your stronghold be able to fly" depends linearly on the volume of it (as opposed to the mass), which they have their own units for ('stronghold spaces' or something). IIRc it even had a table with different prices based on how fast it can fly.

I don't know whether each 'unit' of volume was its own spell effect for purposes of dispelling. It sounded like it was all one thing...so very vulnerable, and 1d4 rounds of freefall would be very damaging to everyone/thing on it even if you didn't hit the ground - you'd probably merit falling damage when it suddenly stopped falling, like when an elevator crashes. But since the price is linear in size, you might as well have a bunch of separate effects and tether them together - sort of like a 'flotilla' of detachable, tesselating mini-fortresses, which also lets you reconfigure the shape, add to it over time, split apart if you need it to be in 2 places at once, etc.

Overall, the general principle of 'decentralization' seems like a nice idea.

[Alleran]

Huh, it levitates if for you too? Awesome. It is directed 'flight', or is it only capable of floating in the cast location?
The caster of the spell can control the movement (vertical and horizontal) of the floating city/rock/whatever. There aren't any rules given for how, though, just that they can move it at will.

[Eric Tolle]

Myself, I would do it the truly annoying way: planeshift to the D20 Traveller or Star Wars universes, pick up some reactors and antigravity generators, and go to town. Hell, a 25th level mage should have no problem "borrowing" a Star Destroyer to park wherever he wants.

Suggest that to the GM, watch his face turn interesting colors, and then give him the immovable rod scheme.

For what it's worth, the world's largest oil tanker comes in at 318,000 tones, and 333 m X 60 m. Allowing for 6000 pounds per rod, that comes out to 53,000 Immovable Rods, at 265 million gold.

[Ravens_cry]

I still like the idea of the city being a truly massive Animated Object with Fly cast on it, but how to get ones caster level high enough? Heck, I would even use Awaken Construct on it and give it class levels.