Continued From Another Thread: Handling New Players

[Amphetryon]

Original Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196037)

First throwing a new player to the wolves is a terrible idea. You should always, at the very least, help them create a character or better yet at first have a pregenerated character based on their input. Building is not the aim for a new player. Teaching them how to play and to deal with in game issues are the issue at hand. Teaching how to build can come later once they learn how the system works.
<snip> As MeeposFire indicates in the snipped portion, the discussion was getting off topic, so I moved the discussion to a new thread.

I'll admit this is partly a pet peeve of mine. It always comes across, to me, as a disguised elitist attitude, that only we grognards who have played 3.X from its infancy were smart enough to know how to build a character from scratch to begin with, while anyone who comes to the game at a later point should be coddled and given pregenerated characters or a limited list of allowed choices so as not to 'screw up' somehow.

For many players, creating a character is part of how they come to understand the character, and thus, how they choose to roleplay that character. Depriving a player from that experience solely on the basis of their inexperience can lead to players who aren't invested enough in their characters to enjoy the RP experience, which can lead to a spiral of diminishing interest in the game in general.

What do you think?

[true_shinken]

I always see this issue come up. I don't have many problems with this, I just ask them what they want to play and give a few tips. If they want more help, they will ask. Sometimes they end up with a less than desireable character, but then I allow them to rebuild.
It has worked pretty well so far.

[Yora]

Do never make the choices for a new players character build. First you take away the most important part of RPGs, which is coming up with an individual character that you designed according to your own ideas. Second the player won't learn anything about character creation and what the number on the sheet mean. And third he'll end up with a character he is unable to play, since he doesn't understand why the character has its abilities and what they are good for.
Almost every group I played with consisted entirely of first time players and of course I explain to them the basics and present to them the various options. I also recommend against certain character concepts when I think it requires a built too complex for a new player, but that's precisely because of the second and third point I made above.
But in the end, the players have to make the descision which of the options they take,

True, when I say "Thoughness doesn't really make a difference when you want to play a barbarian that shrugs off a lot of damage", they will always follow that advice and not take the feat. But if they want to fight with two daggers, sure have it that way.

[valadil]

I'll admit this is partly a pet peeve of mine. It always comes across, to me, as a disguised elitist attitude, that only we grognards who have played 3.X from its infancy were smart enough to know how to build a character from scratch to begin with, while anyone who comes to the game at a later point should be coddled and given pregenerated characters or a limited list of allowed choices so as not to 'screw up' somehow.

Simple answer. Offer to build or help build a character. You don't have to assume anything about the player's ability or inability to read a PHB, but the player should know that it's okay to ask for help.

Personally I like getting help with a new system or new GM. Even if I understand the system as written, there are enough alternative interpretations out there that I'd rather make a character with a GM than make a character that doesn't work under that GM. I could take the same bard and have an awesome time playing with a social GM or I could be utterly miserable under a dungeon-happy GM. I like making the character while hearing feedback (like, "ugh, bards suck why would you even play one") so that I don't get stuck with something inappropriate.

[navar100]

If I were to learn a new system, tell me what my options are but let me choose them. The character is the only thing a player gets to control. He should be playing what he wants, not what the DM wants. Naturally the player shouldn't be playing a character that Wins The Game, prevents the game from functioning, does not get along with the party, or does not fit in with the campaign theme.

[Popertop]

Do with me what you will, just don't tell me my ideas are stupid :smallannoyed:

[Savannah]

Yep, I agree that it's horribly condescending. (Only thing worse is the "don't start new players on D&D, use a simpler system" advice that gets thrown around.)

When I have a new player, I always let them make their character. If they've read the rulebooks and know basically what they're doing, I just make sure I'm around in case they have questions and check their sheet after they get done. If they need more help, I just explain what the options are at each stage and let them pick what they want (I will simplify things by only explaining the top five or so feats for their character and similar, because for some things it's just really overwhelming if you have so many options). I do point out little things ('You might want some rope; it's really helpful if someone falls in a pit or you need to tie someone up.' 'Are you sure you want to make your Int higher than your Con? As a fighter, the Con's going to help more.'*) after they get done with the character, but I don't try to teach any major optimization, as my games don't use it very much.

*examples are hypothetical, as I can't remember any real ones now....

[huttj509]

I think it depends on how familiar the player is with other systems. ADnD 2e? Point out a couple things that are significantly different (ok, there's quite a few, but things like the shift from thac0 to bab, saving throws, etc, so they understand what those collumns mean), then toss them in if they like, offer to help if they like, etc.

Someone who's, say, used to many fewer rules, more freeform, etc? I'd actually suggest running a mini-adventure (like 1 combat, 1 social, 1 stealth encounter), with a premade character as a bit of a 'tutorial,' if they are interested. Making a character for me is MUCH easier when I know the rules, how conflict resolution of various types works, etc. Trying to make a Hunter character when I had no white wolf WoD experience, and non-easy access to the book so when I did I felt hurried? P.I.T.A.

Also, if you have a group of people new to 3e, sure, throw em all to the wolves if you like, they'll all be varying degrees of effectiveness. With some new, some experienced, I'd be much more inclined to assist in character creation, to avoid the straight monk next to the DMM cleric, druid, and wizard scenario, since, well, at first glance monk looks really strong (lots of abilities, big dice on attacks eventually, etc). There do exist "newbie traps", and falling into one when the rest of the party knows it's a trap can be...frustrating. If you take it knowing what it is and why it's considered a trap, fine, informed choices are great. New folks tend to not be informed when making those choices.

[Popertop]

Someone who's, say, used to many fewer rules, more freeform, etc? I'd actually suggest running a mini-adventure (like 1 combat, 1 social, 1 stealth encounter), with a premade character as a bit of a 'tutorial,' if they are interested. Making a character for me is MUCH easier when I know the rules, how conflict resolution of various types works, etc.

For a while I've liked the idea of a series of DnD tutorials.
An intro series, covering a variety of fundamental concepts about the game
Then more intermediate and advanced scenarios as they become more familiar with how the system works.
A series on melee, magic, arcane and divine magic, and the other stuff too.
Kind of a DnD boot camp, if you will.

If I ever had a DnD club, I would do that, and I would also put up weekly "problems" where a scenario is offered with a list of sources available for a solution and then you see what people come up with. Maybe throw alternate with logic puzzles and riddles to keep things varied.

If you did all of that, then you could market your DnD club as "promoting critical thinking and problem solving skills"
And the thing is, DnD actually does those things. :)

Screw standardized testing, throw some kids into an encounter 8 CR above their level and see if they can make it out alive.

[Vladislav]

I usually lay out a series of (reasonable) choices. The new player is still very much in control, but is unlikely to choose anything silly, as such won't be offered to him.

[Vangor]

For many players, creating a character is part of how they come to understand the character, and thus, how they choose to roleplay that character. Depriving a player from that experience solely on the basis of their inexperience can lead to players who aren't invested enough in their characters to enjoy the RP experience, which can lead to a spiral of diminishing interest in the game in general.

What do you think?

I always offer to assist new players in creating functioning character types. Further, with my experience, I know ways to create such a character they simply do not know without months studying books. My point is not the player is unable to build a character but the likelihood of a player being able to build a character without the experience of what functions and how features interact is infinitesimal.

Now, were the entire group new, I would allow the group free rein to create their own characters with assistance only on assuring the process and calculations are done properly. My biggest issue with incorporating new players is assuring this player feels effective compared to the rest of the group and within our campaign world. To do either of those with a semi-knowledgeable group, I have to suck the effectiveness of or challenge for others away.