Stupid Humans!

[DwarfFighter]

Characters with low Intelligence still have a minimum of 1 skill point per level. Humans gain a bonus skill point per level, but is this after the skill points penalty for low Int? Is it effectively a minimum of 2 skill points per level for humans?

-DF

[Apophis]

I believe they would get 2. You get a minimum of 1 skill point from a class, and the human skill point is a separate bonus.

[Garagos]

I agree, I believe the human racial bonus is meant to be applied after Int bonus/penalty and any other bonuses you might somehow have. Humans get 2 minimum per level.

[Yora]

By RAW it really only says "a character always gets at least 1 skill point per level".
But I would support the view that bonus skill points should be added to the at least one skill point from the class. Seems just nicer to handle it that way.

[KillianHawkeye]

The wording "4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level" would seem to imply that it is added in after the "N + Int mod skill points" calculation has already been resolved, so I agree with the minimum 2 interpretation.

[TroubleBrewing]

Yup, 2 minimum per level.

I entered this thread because I thought the OP was ranting about how Human is a bad choice for Race, and was fully prepared to whip out my two guns, Derision and Scorn, but found myself over-armed.

Always disappointing to get all geared up for a rant, and be totally disarmed.

[Koury]

Humans are totally a crappy race! I don't understand why anyone would ever pick it as their race. I mean, skill points? Who cares about skill points! Its only one per level! So my incentive to play a Human is a feature thats worse then getting +2 Int and a bonus feat? Woohoo, I get half the first level of Fighter plus an extra 23 skill points (IF I make it level 20). I just don't see the appeal. :smallyuk:

Now Half-Elf... Thats a race I can get behind!

There ya go :P

[Kuulvheysoon]

No, friend, I'm afraid that you have it wrong.

Half-Orcs.

Hells yeah. Who needs 'feats'? We're not smart enough to figure it out. Nah, we've got brute strength. And free skill points? They're an artificial human construct designed to make them feel superior. Before we crush them. With out large half-orc muscles. That are strong.

The only reason that humans even made it into the PHB is because they're half-half-orc.

[Cerlis]

Humans are totally a crappy race! I don't understand why anyone would ever pick it as their race. I mean, skill points? Who cares about skill points! Its only one per level! So my incentive to play a Human is a feature thats worse then getting +2 Int and a bonus feat? Woohoo, I get half the first level of Fighter plus an extra 23 skill points (IF I make it level 20). I just don't see the appeal. :smallyuk:

Now Half-Elf... Thats a race I can get behind!

There ya go :P

cept most professional builds focus on this prestige class or that one, which often have feat intensive or weird skill requirements. making humans the most versitile. I'd think most people would agree that Feats are the single most important thing in the game. Everything else is good, but by itself not as good as a single feat can be.

[Greenish]

cept most professional builds focus on this prestige class or that one, which often have feat intensive or weird skill requirements. making humans the most versitile. I'd think most people would agree that Feats are the single most important thing in the game. Everything else is good, but by itself not as good as a single feat can be.I believe the bait was for Grey's benefit.

[Edit]: "Professional builds"? :smalltongue:

[WildPyre]

I believe the bait was for Grey's benefit.

[Edit]: "Professional builds"? :smalltongue:

Man if I could get paid to sit around and make D&D characters... that would be the life man. :smallcool:

[Koury]

cept most professional builds focus on this prestige class or that one, which often have feat intensive or weird skill requirements. making humans the most versitile. I'd think most people would agree that Feats are the single most important thing in the game. Everything else is good, but by itself not as good as a single feat can be.

Psh, PrCs? As if being Human is any sort of advantage in that regard. If you want a good race for PrCs, you might want to check out Elf and Dwarf. I mean, have you seen Arcane Archer and Dwarven Defender?

Good luck keeping up, Human.

It's a joke! I have to put this here. All my infractions are for things like this being taken seriously. Please don't get me in trouble again! :P

[Kuulvheysoon]

Don't forget Warforged. I mean, who WOULDN'T want to finish off Reforged?

[TroubleBrewing]

Koury, you win the thread. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/Choco_chip_cookie.png)

[Elric VIII]

Don't forget Warforged. I mean, who WOULDN'T want to finish off Reforged?

The sarcasm is not wasted on me, but I think that the last level of reforged is pretty good. It lets you switch early feats for ones you qualify at later levels. As a rather silly example, a Warforged Bard can take 2-3 Racial feats at level one via flaws then with Reforged 3 trade them in for Song of the Heart and/or Words of Creation, which require a higher characetr level. And you can even make up for the lost Bard levels with that [Anarchic] feat that is like Practiced Spellcaster for Bard abilities from Dragon Magazine.



But, let's not forget ho much better than humans the Derro are. You get 3 free racial HD, and all you have to trade are some class levels from things that aren't as good as Arcane Archer or Dwarven Defender. Plus, the LA saves you from dispel, since your spells are cast at a lower level and are not targetted first. Also, you get to be insane.

[TroubleBrewing]

Plus, the LA saves you from dispel, since your spells are cast at a lower level and are not targetted first.

...

......

...... :smallamused:

Well played, sir.

I think I'm going to actually try and slip this into a discussion with my RL group as a serious point some time soon. If anyone in the group notices, I'll play it off as me being totally serious.

The worst part about that sentence is that it implies that you're playing a race with LA and RHD as a spellcaster. Murphgle. :smallfrown:

[MeeposFire]

The sarcasm is not wasted on me, but I think that the last level of reforged is pretty good. It lets you switch early feats for ones you qualify at later levels. As a rather silly example, a Warforged Bard can take 2-3 Racial feats at level one via flaws then with Reforged 3 trade them in for Song of the Heart and/or Words of Creation, which require a higher characetr level. And you can even make up for the lost Bard levels with that [Anarchic] feat that is like Practiced Spellcaster for Bard abilities from Dragon Magazine.



But, let's not forget ho much better than humans the Derro are. You get 3 free racial HD, and all you have to trade are some class levels from things that aren't as good as Arcane Archer or Dwarven Defender. Plus, the LA saves you from dispel, since your spells are cast at a lower level and are not targetted first. Also, you get to be insane.

And if you were level drained later of your reforged levels would you get your old body back?:smallwink:

[KillianHawkeye]

The worst part about that sentence is that it implies that you're playing a race with LA and RHD as a spellcaster. Murphgle. :smallfrown:

Well, obviously! If you're going to have fewer class levels than other characters, you'd better pick the most powerful classes you can get (which everybody knows are the top-tier spellcasters). :smallamused:

[Grommen]

Man Humans are so kool they should get a +1 Level Adjustment.

Elves suck! :smallamused:

O man a Human Fighter can their be anything better?

[Sacrieur]

I never saw why half-orcs deserved a -4 adjustment to stats, but only a +2 bonus.

[Cog]

Because strength is so much more powerful than intelligence, of course.

What, do you want all the orc beatsticks beating up those poor elven wizards without any drawbacks at all?

[Yora]

Also, half-orcs get darkvision in addition to +2 str!

[Hiro Protagonest]

Because strength is so much more powerful than intelligence, of course.

What, do you want all the orc beatsticks beating up those poor elven wizards without any drawbacks at all?

Intelligence is underrated, and strength is overrated.

Plus, darkvision isn't worth giving up skill ranks and a bonus feat, and if you compare half-orcs to dwarves, and they look even worse, as dwarves get bonuses to skills and bonuses against goblinoids, orcs, and giants.

[Cog]

Intelligence is underrated, and strength is overrated.
Sarcasm, internet, etc.

[Yora]

This whole thread is full of intentionally extremely bad advice. ^^

[AsteriskAmp]

This whole thread is full of intentionally extremely bad advice. ^^

So dark vision isn't worth it?

[Kuulvheysoon]

This whole thread is full of intentionally extremely bad advice. ^^

I'm pretty sure a good half of this thread is sarcasm. Here's a hint: Arcane Archer is not a good PrC.

[Morph Bark]

Arcane Archer is not a good PrC.

Everyone knows that it shoulda been a Truenaming Archer.

[Swooper]

Yup, 2 minimum per level.

I entered this thread because I thought the OP was ranting about how Human is a bad choice for Race, and was fully prepared to whip out my two guns, Derision and Scorn, but found myself over-armed.

Always disappointing to get all geared up for a rant, and be totally disarmed.

I was actually expecting the opposite, that this was a thread about how humans were too good compared to other races. This premise piqued my interest because I recently remade most of the standard races' racial traits to match humans (and then some).

[AsteriskAmp]

Everyone knows that it shoulda been a Truenaming Archer.

Which Ironically is still better than a straight truenamer.

[Sacrieur]

Which Ironically is still better than a straight truenamer.

So I was playing my Truenamer CW Samurai the other day...

[Gadora]

So I was playing my Truenamer CW Samurai the other day...

You gave a Truenamer heavy armor proficiency? I hope your DM is prepared to deal with armored casters. :smallannoyed:

[Koury]

Psh, casters in armor? Pathetic attempt by the casters to mimic the greatness that only melee can achieve.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Psh, casters in armor? Pathetic attempt by the casters to mimic the greatness that only melee can achieve.

Sarcasm, eh? Well, don't forget about warblades and crusaders, not quite as good as optimized casters, but way better then other melee classes.

[AsteriskAmp]

Psh, casters in armor? Pathetic attempt by the casters to mimic the greatness that only melee can achieve.

Not any caster, a truenamer, the only of the casters that remotely resembles melee. It has the focus on skills of a rogue and the versatility of a fighter.
With armour? I believe that is certainly the MOST broken build ever made.

[Koury]

Sarcasm, eh? Well, don't forget about warblades and crusaders, not quite as good as optimized casters, but way better then other melee classes.

Speaking of sarcasm. :smallamused:

[Hiro Protagonest]

Speaking of sarcasm. :smallamused:

Well, they are about tier 2 or 3, casters are tier 1 or 2.

[Koury]

ToB base classes can't break into Tier 2 as far as I know. Very solid T3s though.

Normally pushing up a tier isn't a problem, but the gap between 2 and 3 is a big one that can usually only be crossed in one direction (down).

[Kalim]

ToB base classes can't break into Tier 2 as far as I know. Very solid T3s though.

Normally pushing up a tier isn't a problem, but the gap between 2 and 3 is a big one that can usually only be crossed in one direction (down).

Cleric/Crusader/RKV with DMM Quicken cheese?

[Koury]

I consider that a Cleric build. Also, RKV is why I said ToB base classes. :smallbiggrin:

[Firechanter]

Cleric/Crusader/RKV with DMM Quicken cheese?

"I can _so_ make a T3 into a T2. I just need to mix in a T1."

That reminds me of a Feynman anecdote where he met a painter who claimed he could mix yellow paint just out of white and red. When it didn't work he patted his pockets and muttered "usually I have a small tube of yellow for tinting".

:P