Beholder Tactic (Sanity Check)

[aeauseth]

I am running the Deep Horizon module. I reworked the beholder random encounter slightly. Two beholders (CR13) + 4 Fomorian (CR11) works out to a ECL of 14.5. Players are a party of five overpowered Level 13 characters. Overpowered as in buffed AC of 40 on the main meleer (Druid/Exalted), everyone has at least 100HP (Except the Wizard). I have thrown EL+4 encounters at them before and they defeat most things with ease.

I plan to have the beholders float high in the cave and keep their distance. Charmed formorian's will engage in melee. The 90 degree arc should allow at least 3+3=6 eye rays per round. Use anti-magic when necessary. This is standard beholder tactics.

I am intending to use telekinesis on the rogue to toss him 100ft away, at the same time toss everything he is holding 100ft the other direction. He gets a will save for every item the beholder tries to toss (including himself). I was thinking it is within the rules to toss his amulet, helmet and rings (anything disarm-able). Fighter and Druid are large so they exceed the telekinesis weight limit, although their held items are still valid targets.

If players target the beholders with ranged weapons, I am intending to disintegrate the ranged weapons. I think all I need is a ranged touch attack with the eye ray, weapon gets players fort save, if he succeeds then the 5d6 disintegrate will still likely destroy the weapon.

Using anti-magic on the Druid should force her into human form. Anti-magic should also remove almost all of the exalted bonuses.

Eye rays are (Su) thus the exalted players cannot use their spell resistance.

My intent is to make this a memorable and difficult fight. Any lost weapons will be replaceable after the fight via a treasure room (I added). I just want to make sure I have not overplayed or cheated on the rules. The telekinesis seems particularly unusual; I have not seen that tactic before.

[nyarlathotep]

First off give the beholder feats from lords of madness. Agile tyrant gives 1 more eye ray per round to each beholder. Metamagic lens make their rays far better in particular twin.

[Keld Denar]

If you want to use the AM eye without messing around with who you can and can not pewpew, there is a feat in Lords of Madness (the Beholder book, go figure) that allows you to focus your AM eye cone into a beam that only affects one target. There is still no save, but as the player moves, it tracks them. Basically, tell one person in the fight NO (per beholder). Sounds like that'll work well on the drood, and the other one can use it to wing flip anyone who tries to fly. Also, keeps you from having to worry about catching your charmed formorians in the AM cone, which will surpress the charm.

As far as the TKing goes, what you want to do falls under this:

Combat Maneuver
Alternatively, once per round, you can use telekinesis to perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your caster level in place of your base attack bonus (for disarm and grapple), you use your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier, and a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target (such as for disarm or trip). No save is allowed against these attempts, but spell resistance applies normally. This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration.

TKing the rogue sounds like a violent thrust.

Violent Thrust
Alternatively, the spell energy can be spent in a single round. You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15) that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects. You can hurl up to a total weight of 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level).
Which would require a seperate application of TK than the Combat Maneuver ability above.

[aeauseth]

TKing the rogue sounds like a violent thrust.

Which would require a seperate application of TK than the Combat Maneuver ability above.

Yes, viloent thrust. Beholder should be able to "throw" the rogue + up to 12 items he has in his posession as long as the total weight is under 325 lbs. I doubt I can find 12 items the rogue is carrying that are disarm-able, but you never know. Rogue has a +4 will, so a 65% chance of tossing him, 65% chance of tossing his weapon, etc. All as a free action on the beholder's part. Seems harsh, but legit. Isn't it?

[Keld Denar]

Throwing attended items sounds more like a Combat Maneuver to me, which means that you'd need to do it as a seperate action from the Violent Thrust.

[Aharon]

Concerning the eye rays:
Intent and RAW collide there, as they often do. It may be intended for Beholders not to be able to shoot all 10 of their eye rays at the same target, but they can do so. Using them is a free action, i.e. it can be done whenever they want. So you can use their 20ft. movement for 4 90° turns to allow them to fire all eye rays in the same direction.

[aeauseth]

Throwing attended items sounds more like a Combat Maneuver to me, which means that you'd need to do it as a seperate action from the Violent Thrust.

Well stated, and I agree. The beholder can do one of the following with it's telekenesis ray:


disarm one held item from a single creature (or other Combat Maneuver)
throw one person
throw one unattended item.

The ray limits the effect to just one target.

[Keld Denar]

There's a monacle in Lords of Madness that lets you split eye rays to affect 2 targets. You could totally telekineticize the rogue and his weapon in the same action with one of those. You couldn't get ALL of his gear though...

Plus, a beholder with a monacle...awesome!

[KillianHawkeye]

Just wanted to point out that you can't disarm well-secured items (like rings and amulets) unless you have the target pinned.

[Telok]

One nasty tactic that I've been a victim of is for the beholder to go as far up as it's rays can reach and then use TK on itself to roll upside down. Suddenly it can plaster you with every ray at once, except the main eye of course.

If you do this, use only one upside down beholder at a time.

[Aharon]

@Kilian
Slightly nitpicky, but relevant: you can disarm amulets/necklaces. Rings and Bracelets are given as examples of only-in-pin-disarmable items. (Saying that because there are far more often-used amulets than bracelets).

[KillianHawkeye]

@Kilian
Slightly nitpicky, but relevant: you can disarm amulets/necklaces. Rings and Bracelets are given as examples of only-in-pin-disarmable items. (Saying that because there are far more often-used amulets than bracelets).

Ah, sorry. I couldn't find the specific text in the SRD. Methinks it was removed along with all the other "irrelevant flavor text."

[The Glyphstone]

One nasty tactic that I've been a victim of is for the beholder to go as far up as it's rays can reach and then use TK on itself to roll upside down. Suddenly it can plaster you with every ray at once, except the main eye of course.

If you do this, use only one upside down beholder at a time.

Or, as a variant, a beholder hiding in a 'pit trap' covered by a metal grate.

[Cog]

One nasty tactic that I've been a victim of is for the beholder to go as far up as it's rays can reach and then use TK on itself to roll upside down. Suddenly it can plaster you with every ray at once, except the main eye of course.
That's not a tactic, that's a cheat. Up and down are specifically mentioned in the list of 90 degree arc restrictions.

[Aharon]

@Cog
would you also consider the tactic I described above (hover&turn) as a cheat?

[Cog]

...This board really needs a clearer font for its lowercase G.

On topic: It's not even vague, that's explicitly not allowed either.

During a single round, a creature can aim only two eye rays (gauth) or three eye rays (beholder) at targets in any one 90-degree arc (up, forward, backward, left, right, or down). The remaining eyes must aim at targets in other arcs, or not at all.

[Aharon]

Hey, at least this time I noticed and edited it myself :smalltongue:

It probably helps that I'm no native speaker, so the alternate spelling doesn't mean anything particularly filter-worthy, which is why I forgot again.

Well, that depends on wether 90° arc is relative to the battle map or relative to the beholder. If it is relative to the battlemap, it obviously wouldn't be possible, but I understood that to be relative to the beholder.

______________right
forward_______<______ backward
______________left

90-degree turn


______________right
forward_______v______ backward
______________left

90-degree turn... you get the idea.

The beholder can use his forward and right rays in the same direction without violating the restriction.

From a balance PoV, I agree that it's probably best not to let this trick fly, but from a simulationist point of view, the rule is in there to simulate how far the beholder can bend its' eyestalks.

[Cog]

You're not the first to make the mistake, though. Maybe it's about time for me to get a warforged/modron avatar up to give people a little more context. :smallcool:

The rays themselves aren't associated with any particular direction, so you can't say, "These are the front three rays attacking you now, and these are the rightside three rays attacking you now."

To use your example, the Beholder would have to fire some rays, turn, then fire some more. By the quote, though, you don't get to make that choice - when you fire some rays forward, you then have to either aim the remaining stalks in other directions or forgo their attacks for the round.


...from a simulationist point of view, the rule is in there to simulate how far the beholder can bend its' eyestalks.
The part that simulates that is how a given ray isn't associated with any particular facing. The Disintegrate beam can be opposite the Fear beam in one round and parallel to it the next.

[Telok]

To be truthful the roll-over tactic was last used on me in an AD&D game close to 15 years ago before the RAW/RAI schism.

For an overpowered 13th level party it should be a fine trick to pull on them. The beholders are already pretty nonstandard already just by cooperating.