Flying PCs: How to Deal With It?

[Muz]

A small edition-independent dilemma on which I'd like to get feedback on:

What do you DMs do when the party travels everywhere via air (e.g. flying carpet), and you still want to have them encounter things/people on the ground as they near their destination in order to give a bit of color, foreshadowing, or just add complexity to the situation?

For example:
-Party is going to explore some ruins where (unbeknownst to them, but knownst to us) a dangerous beasty lurks.
-In the wilds outside the ruins live two warring tribes who both are afraid to enter said ruins. The tribes could not only warn the party about the existence of the beasty (which both helps them prepare and adds a bit of dramatic tension from the warning and fear), but could attempt to involve the PCs in some sort of inter-tribe actions (recruiting the PCs to get something from the ruins for them, or simply assuming the PCs are allies of the other tribe and trying to capture/harass them).

If the party flies directly to the ruins, bypassing the whole other layer of the external tribes, gets what they've come for, and leaves, things don't feel nearly as interesting. In all likelihood, they won't camp anywhere near where the tribes live the night before arriving on the carpet, so I can't even have someone wander into their camp from one of the tribes (which in itself strikes me as something I don't want to use often--I can see the players joking, "Let's set up camp and turn on the NPC-attractor!" in meta-gaming expectation of an important encounter). I worry about things feeling too flat, sucking all the adventure out of the journey itself.

So, as I said, how do other DMs deal with this kind of thing? Am I worrying too much? Should I try to do things to encourage recon in the future (upping the difficulty of the aforementioned beasty in the above example)? Other thoughts?

TL;DR: How do you deal with the party riding eagles to Mordor?

[Strife Warzeal]

Maybe have an npc bieng attacked by a random encounter forcing the PCs down (as long they are not jerks).

Have a big monster attack them in the sky and make them walk for a bit.

That's the only ideas I have.

[Lapak]

TL;DR: How do you deal with the party riding eagles to Mordor?Hide Mount Doom.

No, seriously!

Depending on the terrain, the ruins might not be easy to find, even from the air; a combination of heavy vegetation and buildings falling into decay can easily cause such a place to face into the landscape if no one is working to keep it clear. Even most of the better divination spells don't act like a GPS unit in terms of allowing you to home right in on a particular place, so even PCs who know generally where they need to go might not be able to find what they're looking for. The tribal encampments, on the other hand, WILL be cleared and easy to spot. They're an obvious place for the party to land and ask for help or even acquire a guide to bring them to the ruins.

[TurtleKing]

Another thing that flying offers is up close and personal view of the weather. Such as if they dare to fly in a storm they get pelted with driving rain, hail, strong winds, freezing temperatures, and even lightning. Even a sunny day can be not so pleasant when you are sun burned and dehydrated. Flying along in a clear sky when you plummet hundreds of feet for no reason. The answer to that question is turbolence. Oh and lets don't forget if you fall from your flying craft that the landing may not be to comfortable. Even falling from a great distance onto water is like falling onto concrete.

I also second that flying real high make things less distinguishable on the ground. Flying directly to a location is not so easy. I would mostly use overland flight inbetween large geographical locations that can be seen from the air or cities.

[peacenlove]

Strong winds will save you until level 9-10 (when PC's grab teleport). Also fairly easy to explain (currents of wind are different some hundred feet bove the surface).
Maybe the fauna living in the skies is as dangerous or more than the creatures of the ground. Angry air elementals, rampaging dragons and spectral undead would be nice examples, there are many creatures that are comfortable on the wing. This can be applied to any means of "easy" travel (like astral projection or ethereal jaunt)
Fog and other vision impairing effects will serve well until PC's can cast reliably greater scrying, greater teleport and/or discern location.

[Yora]

Also: luggage.

when flying, there's usually a maximum how much stuff you can carry with you.

[Lord Vampyre]

One other hazards they may need to worry about is the fact that flying creatures tend to be rather visible. One of the tribes may suspect them of being spies, and decide to start shooting arrows at the party from nearby trees.

This really depends on what kind of altitude you allow them to attain while on a flying carpet. Too high of an altitude and they won't be seen, but they'll also have to deal with a lack of breathable air, freezing temperatures, ect.

[Anxe]

Wind Currents. OP's actual example seems to have a lot of common with the Kenzer&Co module, The Lost Tomb of Kruk-Ma-Kali. In that module, the players are prevented from flying to the tomb by magical air currents protecting the tomb from that means of access.

[dsmiles]

This:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Sl-F03d7bH8/S_-w0UtkQKI/AAAAAAAAADg/Ve6Qtoz4sqA/s1600/633636917916939350-FlyingTarrasque.jpgis how you deal with flying characters. :smallbiggrin:

[Talakeal]

It's kind of a tough dilemma, because most PCs will either complain that the adventure was too easy / hard if they flew over and skipped half of it. Too easy if they missed a lot of resource using encounters, too hard if they missed a lot of valuable information, treasure, allies, etc.

Likewise, most PCs will complain that you are railroading them or plot hammering them if you look for reasons to force them from the sky as has been suggested.

Frankly these are the kind of dilemmas that I am at a loss to handle even after 15 years as a GM, they seem like lose lose situations. Maybe I just have bad players (or am just a bad GM), although from what I have seen on this and other forums it seems to be the norm.

[randomhero00]

Probably the lamest but the easiest: Its windy. You can't control yourself without taking damage each round from falling/running into rocks/trees/etc.

[Muz]

Another thing that flying offers is up close and personal view of the weather. Such as if they dare to fly in a storm they get pelted with driving rain, hail, strong winds, freezing temperatures, and even lightning. Even a sunny day can be not so pleasant when you are sun burned and dehydrated.

The problem with this bit is that such things tend to get shrugged off by players as they sit in a comfortable chair sipping a soda if there's no actual in-game effects. (Well, except for the lightning.) :smallwink:

Good point about things being obscured, though. (Now I just need to wean myself off of putting things on small islands in the middle of lakes.)

[Mastikator]

Also: luggage.

when flying, there's usually a maximum how much stuff you can carry with you.

This, make them count all the things that they need to adventure. Food, camping equipment, their tools and plot-related things they need to transport. It's gonna add up, especially the camping equipment.
In a group I play our characters own a small wagon and two donkeys, just so that we don't have to carry around 50+ kilos of things when walking the entire day.
We're saving up to buy a bigger one with a roof that we can all fit into. But it's not high fantasy and it's based on a medieval economy, so yeah.

[Muz]

This, make them count all the things that they need to adventure. Food, camping equipment, their tools and plot-related things they need to transport. It's gonna add up, especially the camping equipment.


Most of it's in a portable hole-like cloth one of the characters carries, in my (small) party's case. :smallwink:

[Strife Warzeal]

The problem with this bit is that such things tend to get shrugged off by players as they sit in a comfortable chair sipping a soda if there's no actual in-game effects. (Well, except for the lightning.) :smallwink:

Good point about things being obscured, though. (Now I just need to wean myself off of putting things on small islands in the middle of lakes.)

That's when you reveal the buckets filled with ice(hail) water(rain) and some fans to get that wind blowing making it that much worse. Once they land you stop doing that.

This only works if you meet your group in real life and not a pbp game.

[Flickerdart]

The local government requires everyone to take a test for a flyer's license before they are allowed to operate a flying vehicle, mount or other means of flight. Even if they do pass the test (and it might be very difficult, with all sorts of flaming hoops and alligator pits and whatnot) the license takes a while to issue because of all the bureaucracy. Maybe the chief issuer was taken hostage by Raptoran malcontents. Maybe the clerical staff is on strike. Maybe they need to grease the wheels a little. Maybe the magical ink in which the licenses are written is fresh out, and can only be collected by virgins under a full moon on the Mountain of Level-Appropriate Encounters.

[The_Werebear]

An idea from Jade Empire - Yes, flying travel is possible, but wind currents make it dangerous and difficult unless you know them well. When you enter a new region, you need to find a Wind Map (from locals, from mapping it personally, from merchants in another area) to be able to fly without having serious control issues.

It allows the PC's to travel easily in well known areas, but forces at least some ground interaction in areas of your choosing, in addition to giving you a handy present to reward the PC's with for dealing with what you already have set up.

Another, more mean way, is to start including adventures into the Underdark.

[Quietus]

1) Obscure the target, as noted before. Difficult to find = must actually search.
2) Make the dungeon ridiculously difficult without certain information/supplies
3) Make that information/supplies available not far from the dungeon. Perhaps the local tribe knows things, and they saw the PCs fly in. A group of them are now waiting at the dungeon exit for information when the PC's leave
4) Let the PCs know, *after* they've gone through hell and back, that things would've been easier if they'd had this other information
5) Repeat with variation as often as needed for them to be hit by the clue-by-four
6) ????
7) Profit!

[TheCountAlucard]

I have nothing to add here, save for the assurance that this is, indeed, system-independant. In both of my gaming group's Saturday Exalted games, we've generally found a little too much convenience has been added when you can just pop off on a magic cloud or magitech airplane that takes you from point A of the plot straight to point Z.

[Greylond]

many good points in this thread.

Aerial Encounters, Weather, not everything from the air can be seen due to various things.

Also, being airborne would be, IMO, worse than being on Horseback for the untrained. For those without training trying to use missile weapons or other attacks that require a to hit roll, assign a penalty because floating on the air, especially in a wind, bobbing up and down slightly isn't something that most people train for when on the ground.

My current HackMaster 4 group is 8th to 10th level and they have various methods of Flying/Levitating and Teleporting. They are constantly running into things covered by Jungle/Forests, adventure locations that are underground or in Cities where there are rules about random flying about and/or Teleporting into private property.

And if you're a really Evil GM, like me, you'll put a false, but real looking location that appears to be what they are looking for but the real one is hidden.

So, in this case, they fly over the location, sight some ruins that look right, land and kill some low-level creatures(which forces them to waste spells and other resources) and they don't find what they are looking for. Later on, as they are finishing up with that false location, have some meek tribesman meet them on the edge of the ruins and they find out from him that this set of ruins isn't the one they're looking for and the "wise old man" of the Tribe would be the one to talk to but he suggests that arriving via some method of "Big Magic" like flying or Teleporting would be a social no-no and they should be respectful and walk in like normal people if they want the "Old Wise Man" to talk to them. Remember, in a Mediveal base tech world, accurate maps just don't exist so it's not like whatever clues led them to this part of the world had the accurate coordinates for the adventure location.

[Mastikator]

Most of it's in a portable hole-like cloth one of the characters carries, in my (small) party's case. :smallwink:

This, and flying, is precisely the kind of magic that changes the world. You can't use obstacles that work in our world because those are based on solving problems without a magic wand.
You're gonna have to figure out the type of problems that would occur in a universe that has magic.

Basically, you're going at it from the wrong angle. You're gonna have to think outside the box.
This is why I prefer low-magic settings :P

[randomhero00]

Man add in a stinky layer. Make, well, farts build up in that universe and they never go away, just up, and slowly down down down.... so you get to a certain altitude and their characters start vomiting from a disgusting smell.

[Yvanehtnioj]

I have had a similar situation in the past, with a group of players that I dm'd for. Basically it is the same as other movement types that permit the bypassing of some obstacles--swimming, etherealness, burrowing, etc.


Quote from Muz: "What do you DMs do when the party travels everywhere via air (e.g. flying carpet), and you still want to have them encounter things/people on the ground as they near their destination in order to give a bit of color, foreshadowing, or just add complexity to the situation?"


You can still have them encounter interesting person(s), place(s), and/or thing(s).

1.) Start off by making a random encounter table (if you have not already) for both land and air, in that region. (You can put many different things into there, such as some of the weather descriptions that some of the others have mentioned, for example.)

2.) Someone will have to be controlling the object they use to fly. That could require riding skill checks from time to time to ensure that they do not veer off-course, or lose control.

3.) Dangerous creatures who are medium-sized, big, and bigger move through the air. The players may want to reconsider spending long periods of time up in the air. -- No doubt they will have to land to camp. Wyverns are one such danger. (In-air combat also carries with it the chance that their transport may become damaged.)

4.) The terrain may make it very hard for the players to try to spot the ruins from the air. Especially if the landscape is forested. Worse if it is winter, or the place has lots of snow. The ruins will not likely stand out like the Eifel Tower. As TurtleKing said, visibility diminishes from up high.

5.) Enforce the encumberance rules (unless you do not). Every form of transportation has a carrying capacity. The players ought to be limited by this. Provisions and other supplies may become an important decision.

~~~~

It is now Day 3:

Your players have been flying around and searching but to no avail. So far all they have found is a few scattered places (where those warring tribes live.) They camp on the ground in the evening, but your players have been begun to run low on some supplies. (They have begun to give the wizard's spellbook the evil eye, for they have run out of toliet paper.)
One of them notices a plume of smoke. Then another. These plumes are accompanied by strange flashes of magically-colored light.
Let's assume they go to investigate. --> They find a battle ensuing between a pair of wizards and a few dozen tribesmen. What do the players do?

Those wizards may not even be here for the ruins. They may be collecting blood from unwilling tribal members. But of course, that will not be obvious...


Hope some of this helps.

Ivan.

[LibraryOgre]

The big one I'd think of would be provisions and the like. Every so often, they have to stop for water or whatever (unless, of course, they've gimmicked their ship so they don't have to), or run into weather or airborne monsters. While not everywhere should have a guardian Roc, it should happen every so often.

Of course, there's also the "bring the mountain to Mohammed" option... if the players are bypassing the ground encounters that you think are important, you might stick the tribes on eagle-back (maybe a few elite warriors?)

[AslanCross]

The problem with this bit is that such things tend to get shrugged off by players as they sit in a comfortable chair sipping a soda if there's no actual in-game effects. (Well, except for the lightning.) :smallwink:

Good point about things being obscured, though. (Now I just need to wean myself off of putting things on small islands in the middle of lakes.)

"Obscured" in this case means "You can't see a damn thing; everything looks so white that you can't even tell which way is down or up." I recall this still happens to pilots in the real world.

Also:

http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy/images/f/f2/Bashamut2.png

Depends on the world, but this is a good way to stop players from abusing frequent flier miles.

[Demon In Me]

Put the ruins underground?


What I'm thinking is, have some sort of above ground sign that they're in the general area, like a broken down temple or an obelisk with faded runes or something, but the entrance to the actual ruins they need to access is underground. This will involve getting down and doing some nitty, gritty searching. Also, perhaps, asking the natives, who answer in an appropriately cryptical manner (maybe with a riddle or myth of their culture that reveals things about the ruins themselves?).

[Acanous]

Make the bad guy race the party for the mcguffin.

Carpet of Flying's move speed is 40.

Horses have a move speed of 60, and the Run feat.

Who gets there first?

[leafman]

You said the ruins are on an island in the middle of a lake right? Have the party arrive at the lake at daybreak and the lake is covered in fog. Unless they have a magic way of seeing through the fog, it might take a few hours to clear up. Being early morning, they might as well find a place on the shore to land and eat breakfast while they wait.

(stumbled in here after seeing Flying PCs in the title and thinking "Flying personal computers? I gotta read this!" :smallredface:)

[Coidzor]

That's when you reveal the buckets filled with ice(hail) water(rain) and some fans to get that wind blowing making it that much worse. Once they land you stop doing that.

This only works if you meet your group in real life and not a pbp game.

And are physically or verbally intimidating enough that they'd put up with that kind of abuse. :smalltongue:


Good point about things being obscured, though. (Now I just need to wean myself off of putting things on small islands in the middle of lakes.)

Make the lake misty and have 'em basically skim the water in order to search segments of it due to visibility. Cue dice that roll for spot checks while they search as well as other spot checks just to keep 'em on their toes about krakens in the mist or what have you.

[Lither]

Thunderstorms. Really strong gusts of wind. Hailstorms.

Anything along those lines that would logically make flying dangerous, do it. PCs don't like rolling up new characters, so they stay on the ground.

When PCs start casting Feather Fall or Teleport, start using lightning bolts.

[Leon]

FlaK White Text

[Thrawn183]

There's nowhere to hide in the sky.

[Treblain]

Whenever the players take to the skies, ask them to wait a moment. Roll a few dice behind the screen, consult a table, study it carefully, and then sigh and whisper "Not this time..."

They'll think twice about flying when they don't have to.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I suspect that some real-world research would help here. After all, planes have to be built pretty darn sturdily in order to stay together and stay stable. Magic can't possibly cover all of that, can it?

[Traab]

Alot of people have listed various ideas, but they all boil down to a simple formula, make it uncomfortable to do what you dont want them doing. People mentioned air monster encounters, do that, and add in penalties for trying to fight on a semi rigid surface thats floating in midair. Its hard to aim when your platform is constantly moving in unpredictable directions. Its hard to get a lot of momentum behind your attempts to charge a target and hit them when the surface moves under your feet, like a sheet of thin wood on the surface of a lake. Movement penalties, to hit penalties, even damage modifiers because your warrior cant brace himself against a semi rigid surface to really put his back into that swing. Hell, make the spell caster nauseous from air sickness so he fizzles more often than usual.

Basically, make it as annoying as possible for them to win a fight in mid air then make them fight in mid air a lot till they get the point. At least that way they have the choice of continuing on and pushing through the problems, instead of doing something like, "Oh, the winds in the area are too harsh and unpredictable to allow for air travel, you are forced to land." Noone likes being railroaded, so your best bet would be to sort of subtly make it clear that you dont want them to do something, while making a plan for how to handle it if they insist on doing it anyways. Your tribes can be anywhere on the map short of inside the temple itself, so you can be flexible and make them just "happen" to be nearby whenever they finally decide to land.

[Ezeze]

This:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Sl-F03d7bH8/S_-w0UtkQKI/AAAAAAAAADg/Ve6Qtoz4sqA/s1600/633636917916939350-FlyingTarrasque.jpgis how you deal with flying characters. :smallbiggrin:

While I am pretty sure this was a joke, it needn't be. Slap some wings on the big beastie. Give it tactics, speed and maneuverability that make it much harder to beat in the air than on the ground. But it can't be in the air when it's resting - then it goes into the cave-thing, and that is the only place the PCs have a chance of taking it down.

[Noneoyabizzness]

Storms, sky pirates, harpies, dense forests, underground civilizations,

[Muz]

All good suggestions. (...With the possible exception of "flak," but...still. :smallbiggrin:)

The question now becomes, how do I impose such things on my players without having them feel like I'm pulling the rug out from under them (pun mostly not intended), changing the rules, and taking away their candy?

[Traab]

By making it so they CAN keep doing what they are doing, its just harder. Let them see that its their choice. If they want to continue through the air they can, itll just be a lot harder than if they were to land and hike.

[0Megabyte]

You know, I'm of the school that one shouldn't be trying to fight the PC's abilities: One should make them necessary. When they get powerful divinations, fly spells, teleportation and things like that, make their adventures require those things to even survive.

That isn't to say that smart enemies shouldn't try to counter them: If they're smart, a dimension lock on the people who just popped into their lair would be the first thing they think of, etc.

But, let me give an example:

"To save the kingdom, one needs the five Macguffins! The first is hidden underneath an active volcano. The second is up on that floating island that kills anyone who approaches. The third is on another plane, but keeps shifting from plane to plane so nobody knows where it is at any one time, the fourth is found in the high temple of the Drow civilization, and they have it guarded by high level people. The fifth is in the realm of the dead: You can guess how you get to the realm of the dead. Oh, and the wizard and his minions are after them too, and will stop at nothing to get there first. And if you don't get them all in the next seven days, the whole country gets blown up."

Something like that would require teleportation, flying, plane shifting, fire immunity, outright combat, serious divinations, possibly screwing with time by giving yourselves demiplanes that slow down time so you can actually get a bit more bang for your 15 minute adventuring day buck, etc. Of course, that might be an extreme example.

Point is, when the PC's are more powerful, its time to take their abilities into account, not try to limit them. You have to assume they're going to use their abilities. If they have teleport, give them adventures where they don't have time to do the normal grind of walking somewhere. They have to teleport, even though they've never been there before, and so they get close, and have to find it by walking the rest of the way. That's a key point to remember: Most teleport spells aren't perfect if you've never been to a place before, right? Well, they'll only get close. Then they have to hoof it/fly it/search for it.

Have the mountain be impassible, so that flying is the only way to get to the other side of the ravine.

Occasionally have places where some of their abilities can't work, but not always! Have them need to use these cool spells and abilities they've gained.

[ffone]

- Underdark campaign.

Now there is no sky.

- Over-CRed Dragon and forest canopy

Now the PCs will want to fly at an elevation of at most the canopy altitude (putting them in range of verbal interaction with your tribes, arrow range of foes, etc.)

It's actually very logical in-character (not just DM fiat) for there to be a big dragon that hunts any adventurers flying high - after all, such adventurers are probably very wealthy (they either have flying items, which are expensive, or know magic like Overland Flight, meaning they are high level) and so a greedy dragon would love to add their loot to its hoard.

The dragon might have minions which patrol for it, so it can cover more ground; each patron has someone who can cast Sending to inform the dragon. This also gives you a way to HINT HINT the PCs- first they encounter the gargoyle (or whatever) patrol, a reasonable CR encounter, and the gargoyles say something to each other which hints the PCs that a much more fearsome flying foe has just been contacted and given the location.




Make the bad guy race the party for the mcguffin.

Carpet of Flying's move speed is 40.

Horses have a move speed of 60, and the Run feat.

Who gets there first?

Thing is, the multi-hour overland speed of horses will be 60'/round, since they can't hustle the whole time, esp. if mounted (maybe if you spend a lot of healing and lesser restoration to heal the damage and fatigue). Whereas the carpets' will be 80'/round since they can hustle indefinitely (as the Overland Flight spell they reference states), or 60'/round if more heavily laden. And the tie goes to the carpet, since it can go in a straighter line, can go more than 8 hours easily, etc.

Phantom Steed, now - before 14th caster level where it can fly - those are quite fast (240' at CL 12th) and a great encouragement.

So, throw a wand of Phantom Steed at CL < 14 in some early loot, and give the PCs' sufficient motivation to burn charges (like a race vs rival adventurers).

[Coidzor]

All good suggestions. (...With the possible exception of "flak," but...still. :smallbiggrin:)

Not really, since many of them will be almost impossible to come across well to your players unless they're the most easy going or unobservant players imaginable.


The question now becomes, how do I impose such things on my players without having them feel like I'm pulling the rug out from under them (pun mostly not intended), changing the rules, and taking away their candy?

Therein lies the problem. You can't really in an ongoing campaign. And if you wanted a new campaign you'd be better off running a new world where such things are limited to the level of your preference from the getgo.

[Jolly]

Weather and flying critters are neither fiat nor unreasonable on the dm's part. In fact, ignoring it would be silly fiat in the players favor.

[Thrawn183]

The question now becomes, how do I impose such things on my players without having them feel like I'm pulling the rug out from under them (pun mostly not intended), changing the rules, and taking away their candy?

Always make sure to introduce flying monsters before the PC's start flying around. As an example, I had a flock (herd?) of Griffon's dive-poo my PC's as a "random" encounter. The PC's chased them off with ranged attacks and then ran into them again while traveling later on in the campaign (where the griffons recognized them and then left them alone, giving the PC's a nice feeling of accomplishment).

There's also the winged creature template which can apply to most beasties you might want to add to an aerial encounter. Also, if the PC's are flying, the campaign is probably taking into account that there's a fair amount of magic flying around on a regular basis. This means that they should encounter more magical creatures regardless, but will ensure that encountering something weird flying around seems like a natural part of the campaign world rather than having the rug pulled out from beneath them.

Oh man, I totally just thought of a living spell (fly + something else). No one expects the flying ooze of doom.

Edit: If you make it possible to learn about the existence of these threats (for instance a warning from the person who sells them their flying carpet or whatever), it will also seem like much less of an ass-pull.

[Coidzor]

Weather and flying critters are neither fiat nor unreasonable on the dm's part. In fact, ignoring it would be silly fiat in the players favor.

Yes, but specifically ramping them up after being annoyed with them flying around until flying is impossible due to bogging the session down with endless fighting just to get from point a to point b when generally there's a random encounter or two and bam, you're done is definitely going to raise a few eyebrows from one's players.

[Toliudar]

I'll speak in support of Megabyte's argument. Since the group has put resources into strategic flight, they should be rewarded by missing some of the crappy stuff on the ground. Especially if it also becomes clear that they've also missed some plot-relevant details and are floundering a bit about what to do, or if there are potentially lucrative/friendly encounters that they're also missing.

Overland flight becomes a viable choice around, what, level 9-10? And is often supplanted by greater teleport and plane shift a few levels later. Not so very terrible.

In the case of a single specific campaign - is there any way to shift more of the encounters into urban situations, or closer together?

[Gamer Girl]

A small edition-independent dilemma on which I'd like to get feedback on:

What do you DMs do when the party travels everywhere via air (e.g. flying carpet), and you still want to have them encounter things/people on the ground as they near their destination in order to give a bit of color, foreshadowing, or just add complexity to the situation?


A very easy solution is to up the power of your game, just a bit. And that is, let everyone else fly too.

So for your tribe example, they can simply fly too.

[pyroman]

The PC's in my epic campaign have this problem, too. I've been using epic enemy spell casters to ward off plot-crucial areas, but I really don't want to overuse this, and am at a loss for what to do otherwise. Though there is one monster (don't remember name) that can intercept teleports...

[Jolly]

Yes, but specifically ramping them up after being annoyed with them flying around until flying is impossible due to bogging the session down with endless fighting just to get from point a to point b when generally there's a random encounter or two and bam, you're done is definitely going to raise a few eyebrows from one's players.

I feel like there's a happy medium between "skipping the plot by flying over it" and "the DM is screwing us because we bought a magic carpet."

[Oracle_Hunter]

Point is, when the PC's are more powerful, its time to take their abilities into account, not try to limit them.
QFT.

All of the "make the PCs lives annoying" suggestions are similar to throwing a Broken Bridge (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BrokenBridge) into an adventure - it's a bit of DM sleight-of-hand to make the Players follow a particular path to adventure. Everyone can do better than that.

For example, if you want The Village to be part of the adventure, make some part of the Dungeon easier if the PCs go to The Village first. Give them clues in the form of obscure riddles and maybe a wounded villager secreted within the Dungeon and let them choose whether they want to move onwards or whether they want to interact with The Village.

Additionally, make it clear that sometimes flight is not going to be the best option. If they're traveling over mountains, make sure they know that weather and monsters can make their lives more difficult - but they'll make better time and won't have to worry about terrestrial threats. Make each movement choice an option with pros and cons - and make either choice interesting.

[Fiery Diamond]

I'm gonna go with Oracle Hunter here. The most optimal way to handle it would be not to 1) be forced to ramp up your campaign goals to match skills all of the time or 2) forcibly limit your players from using skills they have whenever they conflict with what you have planned, but to rather 3) make it so that there are two options: they can use the ability (flight) or they can forgo using the ability; each will have its pros and cons. Plan accordingly - your preferred player choice shouldn't be the only one you prepare for; plan for what will happen if they don't make that choice. Make it so the players are aware of this both in and out of character; don't just spring weather patterns and random flight encounters on them out of the blue, tell them to expect it. Maybe sometimes it will be faster and easier in the air. Maybe sometimes it will be safer and more informative about future encounters on the ground. They then have the option and if they choose one that makes it more difficult for themselves they can't blame you. You can still give them subtle hints toward what you prefer they do (fiercer weather than usual, a dragon is there, wounded villager in dungeon, etc.) but don't do anything which actually forces them to abort and use the other option unless you actually WANT to railroad them (and let's be honest, unless you're in a complete sandbox campaign, if you have a game that focuses primarily on story there will probably be a few instances where you do, despite it being a bad idea in general).

[Noneoyabizzness]

I'll speak in support of Megabyte's argument. Since the group has put resources into strategic flight, they should be rewarded by missing some of the crappy stuff on the ground.


By that reasoning, focusing on ground travel is rewarded with avoiding sky hazards

[Funky Goose]

How about just get them to land somewhere else?

Simple enough to do go with fog or something, they cant see where they land, and when they do, BAM! tribal war all over them :smalltongue: Do they know the exact location of the temple??? If not then you can get them to serch at ground level anyway if you put it in a jungle.

[Caphi]

Make them travel with a non-flier? It's much harder to make a wagon or a giant landbound creature fly overland than a mage. The PCs can be flying, but it'll expedite scouting at best.

[Endarire]

What's the problem with flying PCs if they've legally earned it?

[Toofey]

would they check out the tribes if you had them spot them from flight on their way? also it's not like the PC's are the only ones that fly, they could get a warning about a predator in the area, or get attacked by some flying monsters which there are clearly more of in the area....

Players are more likely than you think to check out the random tribes places because they know that you in fact did put them there and the tribes are not just a random natural occurrence. But when you need to ground them simply make it clear that something or someone else has air superiority in an area that you want them grounded in.

[Greylond]

What's the problem with flying PCs if they've legally earned it?

It is a matter of presenting a proper challenge for your Players. Make a game too easy and your Players will soon get bored. A real challenge means that your Players will have to play smart. The ideal game, IMO, is one that the Players have a real sense at some point in the session that they are going to Die. Think about it, how boring would a SciFi or Action movie or story be if the primary characters were never in any real danger?

My Players in my HM4 game are high level and have methods of flying and teleporting, but I still find ways to make the game a tactical challenge for them every session. The result? They have a lot of fun and they have gotten very good tactically. A hard challenge pushes the Player to push the envelop on figuring out new ways to overcome the session challenges.

[Mutazoia]

Well I'm usually very careful of handing out flying carpets and such, for just this reason. Still, you can work a few tricks on them and train your players. Let them fly straight to the island and land. Up the CR of the monster and let them just barely escape with their lives. As they limp out have some old geezer from the nearby tribe laughing his arse off at them and give them the old "I coulda tole ya that thar beast wuz gonna et ya, but nobody asks old one-eye Pete! (cackle guffaw).

Teach them that bypassing all the little stuff has consequences, usually dire, and that they need to stop and smell the roses (and step in the manure) from time to time.

One of your main problems is that you've already made things way too easy on them with flying carpets and portable holes. You either have to up the CR of your campaign to match, or start taking toys away.

People have already suggested weather problems, and obscuring the ruins, you can make multiple islands in the lake...which one has the hidden ruins? Are they going to take days to search them all or go ask directions? Maybe one of your tribes lives on one of the islands. How old is their information? The island could have sunk ages ago taking the ruins with them (and now its an underwater encounter and the flying carpet isn't much use).

Me..I would find a way for them to lose the carpet... Dragon's breath, or a lightening bolt from an angry wizard... the possibilities are endless. They'll howl like stuck pigs but they'll get over it.

[Muz]

It is a matter of presenting a proper challenge for your Players. Make a game too easy and your Players will soon get bored. A real challenge means that your Players will have to play smart. The ideal game, IMO, is one that the Players have a real sense at some point in the session that they are going to Die. Think about it, how boring would a SciFi or Action movie or story be if the primary characters were never in any real danger?

My Players in my HM4 game are high level and have methods of flying and teleporting, but I still find ways to make the game a tactical challenge for them every session. The result? They have a lot of fun and they have gotten very good tactically. A hard challenge pushes the Player to push the envelop on figuring out new ways to overcome the session challenges.

In my case, it's not so much trying to make sure they're properly challenged as it is just not wanting to let it limit my dramatic options by allowing them to easily bypass opportunities for plot hooks.

I don't want to massively change the game world by suddenly having dragons/wyverns fill the skies (though I suspect I worry a little TOO much about ecosystem verisimilitude--I sometimes have trouble wondering how so many predators can survive without destroying the food supply), though there are certain areas of the continent that do have flying beasts, and other areas ARE unexplored still, so that's doable...

Oh, and they didn't buy the carpet, they earned it. Killed a red dragon for that sucker after something of a long campaign having to kowtow to the scaly sucker so it wouldn't eat the town long enough for them to figure out where it laired and just HOW to kill it. :smallsmile:


Me..I would find a way for them to lose the carpet... Dragon's breath, or a lightening bolt from an angry wizard... the possibilities are endless. They'll howl like stuck pigs but they'll get over it.

I'm bad at summoning the will to do this. I hate breaking players' toys sometimes (well, most of the time), especially when they're so attached to them. I'm a big softy. (Actually, I'm a 5'7" softie, but...)

[Aux-Ash]

One simple solution would be to spell out that sleeping on the flying carpet is a bad idea and that they need sunlight to find the ruins anyways. So they simply have to land for night-camp.

Since the tribes are warring this means they'll try to keep tabs on each others, which means scouts and outriders. One thing they'll be very curious about is just who is camping by that campfire over there. Have the outriders sneak up on the party, study them and come to the conclusion that they're not the enemy and then approach the party. Talking to them to find out who they are, warn them about the conflict and ask that they come with them to see the elder/chieftain. If the party mentions the ruins, just have the scouts look at each others quietly and then have them insist to speak to the elder/chieftain.

[Lord Vampyre]

Now, that you've gotten quite a few suggestions on how to prevent your players from flying all of the time.

As for introducing some of these ideas, do it slowly. If travel takes 3 days by carpet, make the wheather really bad on one of those days. If any of the ideas are over used it'll destroy the freedom of choice for the characters, but they should know that some things just don't work all of the time.

The forest or jungle canopy will work anytime that you set the ruins in that setting.

Finally, sometimes you just need to let them bypass the things that would make their lives easier. Just put some method of letting them know that if they had done a little more leg work things would have been much easier.

[Toliudar]

By that reasoning, focusing on ground travel is rewarded with avoiding sky hazards

Well, yes. If there are encounters that only happen if you're in the high altitudes, walking avoids them. I have no problem with that.

Muz, I applaud your reluctance to take away a toy that the players worked their asses off to gain.

[Heatwizard]

I don't see how making the destination obscured from the air constitutes 'taking away a toy'. The carpet will not burst into flame if they dismount to look around for hidden ruins and socialize with locals.

[Toliudar]

I don't see how making the destination obscured from the air constitutes 'taking away a toy'. The carpet will not burst into flame if they dismount to look around for hidden ruins and socialize with locals.

I think that two separate points are being conflated. I had no problem with having a specific objective not visible from the air - either by being fogged in, in a city, underground, etc. I was, however, speaking in support of Muz' comment in response to Mutazoia's suggestion of finding a way to get rid of the carpet.

[Mutazoia]

I think that two separate points are being conflated. I had no problem with having a specific objective not visible from the air - either by being fogged in, in a city, underground, etc. I was, however, speaking in support of Muz' comment in response to Mutazoia's suggestion of finding a way to get rid of the carpet.

Exactly.

However one must take a look at the campaign as a whole. Sure the players may have worked hard to get that carpet, but if its breaking the game and making things way to easy then whats the benefit? Once they can soar over obstacles and head right to the McGuffin the campaign breaks down into nothing more than a series of short combat encounters and all the hard work the DM put into the campaign goes into the circular file.

Now I'm not suggesting to destroy it entirely..but break it. Put it out of commission for a while. Make them crash and have to walk or a bit and then walk to someplace to find a Mage powerful enough to fix it. Don't have the fix be permanent though. Let the carpet malfunction every now and then (and not always to drop them down to a new plot device...some times just have it malfunction for no reason so you don't over do the "elevator to new encounter" effect).

The carpet is clearly starting to become a problem so your choices are to break it or just live with it. There have been plenty of suggestions on how to force the PC's down from time to time but they'll figure out a way around those fairly quickly, Players always do.

[Muz]

The carpet is clearly starting to become a problem so your choices are to break it or just live with it. There have been plenty of suggestions on how to force the PC's down from time to time but they'll figure out a way around those fairly quickly, Players always do.

Just to be pedantic, it's not starting to become a problem so much as I'm anticipating a possible problem and looking for ways to deal with the additional DMing challenges it creates. :smallsmile:

[Mutazoia]

Just to be pedantic, it's not starting to become a problem so much as I'm anticipating a possible problem and looking for ways to deal with the additional DMing challenges it creates. :smallsmile:

Well your going to have to force them to ground one way or another. I still favor breaking the carpet. At the very least give it a speed/altitude limitation once its fixed...so It travels faster than a horse but not so fast you can't see stuff around you, and it fly's tree top level at best, so they can still interact with the plot devices. They'll still get to avoid the random encounters but can stop and smell the NPC's when necessary. If you explain the reason to your players I'm sure they'll understand.

[Muz]

Actually, it already flies only as fast as a light horse. :smallwink:

So far, I should say, things are still going well. The PCs are still interested in keeping track of things on the ground as they go, and I'm not yet running into any of the problems I was worried about. Since my original post, I've already managed to lure them down with the sight of a girl standing alone in a wilderness clearing. As for the aforementioned ruins, they learned about those via a journal they came across describing its location via landmarks, so they already had cause to set down once nearing the general area and walk through (encountering a small tribe of wearboars, if anyone's curious).

Took 'em 3 days to reach the general area from the city they left, camping each night on the ground (with a kidnapped-but-charmed NPC complaining about the wind now and then). So, thus far, I'm doing okay.

Though I suppose any dragons in the area might investigate a curious flying thing headed through their territory... :smallamused:

[paddyfool]

Sounds like you're doing it right... giving them fun ways to interact with the ground from the air, rather than closing off the air to them after they worked to gain access to it. Carry on, good sir.