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Pyromancer999
2011-04-22, 06:06 PM
Background-I've recently discovered the webcomic Yosh!. As I took a look at Axel, a.k.a. "The Vile", I realized that there are many characters like him in fantasy, comics, and other works: Characters who are not gods or devils, but something in-between. Characters who are forces in their own right. Entities. Thus, I came up with this character class. Enjoy!

The Entity

"I can get away with kicking Pelor in his specials."[/center]
-Nefer Heldron, an Entity known for his odd sense of humor and tricks, after being asked what he likes best about his powers.

Many forces exist in the world. Some represent the forces of nature. Others are deities or devils with vested interest in the souls of all those that exist. Still others are unknowable(or sometimes horribly too easy to know) beings with their own agendas. These are the Entities. Gifted mysteriously with immense supernatural power, these beings go out into the world, doing as they desire.

Adventures: Entities mainly adventure to get a handle on their own powers. While gifted with supernatural power, Entities do not always know how to use it, and adventuring gives them not only experience and practice with their powers, but also allows them to shape their own views on things.

Characteristics: Although Entities are gifted with supernatural power, this seems to be almost the only trait they have in common. Entities' powers stem from their personality and who they are as a person, and are thus as varied as the types of people in the world. However, all Entities receive a companion as soon as their power awakens, to help them get a handle on it. Also, they are capable of creating servants to help them, whether the help provided in the battlefield or during down-time is up to the Entity who spawned them.

Alignment: Entities and their alignments range far and wide. The power that they wield seems to come randomly to people, and does not discriminate. Thus, an Entity could be a shining example of Good, the poster boy for Evil, or anywhere in-between.

Religion: Many Entities of a certain degree of power consider themselves more powerful than the gods, or even most demons. However, many choose a god or goddess to worship that a typical person of their temperament would, usually one of the same alignment, seeing as most Entities are vulnerable when growing in power, and also since Entities tend to live almost as long as the gods, it doesn't hurt to ingratiate yourself to people you're likely to be around with for centuries.

Background: No one quite knows how Entities develop. All Entities know is that one day, weird things started happening around them, and their powers began to manifest, and shortly after, their companion appears to explain who and what they are. This ability comes randomly, regardless of race, gender, social class, or any other characteristic of a person. A female half-orc daughter of a rich person is as likely as a poor peasant Aasimar to become an Entity.

Races: This power, as said before, comes randomly. No race in particular seems to be more frequent than any other in having Entities, and some Entities believe that there are precisely equal numbers of Entities amongst all of the races.

Other Classes: Many classes have never heard of an Entity. However, clerics and similar divine classes shun Entities, believing that they seek to upsurp the gods. Arcane and Melee classes tend to treat Entities the same as any other arcane spellcaster. An Entity's best friends usually come from classes who are underappreciated or despised by society, such as Sorcerers, Warlocks, and Binders.

Role: What role an Entity serves in a party is mainly determined by what abilities he chooses. While Entities do okay in combat and can cast spells of sorts, they cannot serve as well as classes who specialize in such matters, although they do well enough supporting party members in such areas. Thus, the abilities an Entity chooses serves to shape his role in the party.

Adaptation: While this class is mainly bent on unknowable entities, the fluff can easily be changed to make Entities to be fledgling gods or demons, or simply just a new type of Outsider.

GAME RULE INFORMATION
Entities have the following game statistics.
Abilities: The abilities that are best for an Entity varies from Entity to Entity
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d8
Starting Gold: 5d4 x 10 gp

Class Skills
Entities, with their wide range of backgrounds, have different skill sets. Entities may choose any 10 skills as class skills, and also gain Concentration and Craft as class skills.

Skill Points at First Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

CThe Entity
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Good Save|Bad Save|Will Save|Special|Channel Points|Maximum Level Known

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Affiliation, Channeled Might, Companion|2|1

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+3|Entity's Power|3|1

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+3|Entity's Power|5|1

4th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Servitors|8|2

5th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Entity's Power|12|2

6th|
+4|
+5|
+2|
+5|Entity's Power|17|3

7th|
+5|
+5|
+2|
+5|Entity's Power|22|3

8th|
+6|
+6|
+2|
+6|Entity's Enhancement, |28|4

9th|
+6|
+6|
+3|
+6|Entity's Power|35|4

10th|
+7|
+7|
+3|
+7|Entity's Power|42|5

11th|
+8|
+7|
+3|
+7|Entity's Power|50|5

12th|
+9|
+8|
+4|
+8|Tomorrow's Might|59|6

13th|
+9|
+8|
+4|
+8|Entity's Power|68|6

14th|
+10|
+9|
+4|
+9|Entity's Power|78|7

15th|
+11|
+9|
+5|
+9|Entity's Power|89|7

16th|
+12|
+10|
+5|
+10| Entity's Enhancement|100|8

17th|
+12|
+10|
+5|
+10|Entity's Power|112|8

18th|
+13|
+11|
+6|
+11|Entity's Power|125|9

19th|
+14|
+11|
+6|
+11|Entity's Power|138|9

20th|
+15|
+12|
+6|
+12|Entity's Power, Grand Being|152|9[/table]

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Entities are proficient with all simple weapons and two martial weapons. Entities are proficient with leather armor.

Saves:You may choose either Fortitude or Reflex to be your Good Save, as on the table above. The other save follows the Bad save progression.

Affiliation: An Entity always has something they are associated with. This gives them certain powers. Choose any one domain. This grants the Entity the ability to cast the spells of that domain through the Channeled Might class feature, and grants the power of the domain.

Channeled Might: An Entity is known foremost for its supernatural powers. This is manifested in the form of Channel Points. First, the Entity chooses two lists. These lists may be spell, power, maneuver, mystery, or some other sort of list. At 1st level and each even level, the Entity gains 1 spell, power, maneuver, mystery, etc. from each list. Each odd level after 1st, the Entity gains 1 spell, power, maneuver, mystery, etc. from either list. He may make use of these things through Channel Points, by expending 1 Channel Point per level of the spell, power, maneuver, mystery, etc. The Entity gains Channel Points as on the table above, which also indicates the maximum level of spell, power, etc. that the Entity may learn. His spellcaster, manifester, etc. level is equal to his class level. Despite making use of spells, powers, and all such sort of thing, the Entity does not qualify as a spellcaster, manifester, etc. for qualifying for feats or Prestige Classes, as an Entity's power only mimics such effects, and does not come from the same source as spells, powers, etc. usually do. (Ex. a 1st level Entity chooses the Druid spell list and the Psion's power list. At 1st level, he gains the ability to make use of Entangle from the Druid spell list, and Catfall from the Psion power list. However, he does not qualify as a manifester nor spellcaster for feats and PrCs. He does not count as being able to cast spells or manifest powers). Also, every level divisible by 4, you may exchange one spell, maneuver, power, mystery, etc. that you know for another spell of up to the maximum level effect you may make use of on the same list. Also, you must choose one mental ability score to serve as your casting ability score for all effects you can produce. Lastly, should you choose to make use of a power with augmenting, you can augment it by treating one Channel Point as 2 Power Points.

Companion: Every Entity has a companion come to them when they come into their power, guiding them through the transition that comes from suddenly becoming an Entity. This companion grows with the Entity, and as time goes on, becomes a sort of partner and friend to the Entity. These companions vary. Companions are treated as Outsider Eidolons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155181) with HD equal to that of the Entity's(use d6s), that have 4 binding points per HD they have, which cannot be used to purchase HD. You may rearrange the binding points' distribution every odd level.

Entity's Power: An Entity's Power manifests itself in other ways than through effects that mimic spells and such sort. At 2nd level, and all other levels listed on the table above, the Entity chooses one ability from the table below. If an ability can be taken more than once, you cannot take it twice in a row:

Additional Affiliation: You gain an additional affiliation, choosing an additional domain, and gaining its power. However, you must learn the spells of the domain as one of the two things you learn at each level through the Channeled Might class feature. This may only be taken again to gain another afiliation, but only after 4 levels of selecting this ability.

Alternate Form: Choose one creature with HD less than or equal to your HD -1. You may change into that creature as per the Alternate Form ability. This ability may be selected multiple times, choosing a different creature each time.

Ain't Good to Touch Me: You may deal retributive damage to those who attack you. You deal 1d4 damage of one type you choose to opponents who make a successful melee attack against you. You may take this ability again in order to increase the damage dealt by 1d4.

Bomf!: You gain a ranged blast attack, with a range of 30 ft. This deals 1d8 damage. You may select one type of damage this attack deals. By selecting this ability again, you may increase the damage the attack deals by 1d8. The range of this attack increases by 5 ft for every 2 dice of damage this attack deals.

Bonus Feat: You gain any feat you meet the prerequisites for as a bonus feat.

Bag of Tricks: You learn one class feature from any class that is gained by a class member of up to 1 level lower than you, as a technique (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169353). This technique may be used by expending 1 Channel Point per level of Technique.

Be There in A Sec-Prerequisite: I Go Where I Want. You gain the ability to teleport a distance equal to your base speed + 5 ft as a move action. You gain a pool of distance to enhance this ability by equal to 5 ft x your level. You may select this ability again in order to increase the distance pool by 10 ft, and the amount of distance you gain normally teleport by 5. You may only teleport every 1d4 rounds.

By Claw and Fang: You gain a natural weapon of your choice. This weapon deals damage as though it were one of a creature one size larger than you. You may take this ability again to either gain a new natural weapon or increase an existing one by one size. Should this apply to an unarmed attack, treat the unarmed attack as that of a 1st level monk the first time, then increase the unarmed attack's damage by 1 monk level each time this ability is chosen.

Can't Touch This: Choose one type of effect. If it requires you to make a save, you gain a +3 bonus to saves against such effects. If it is energy damage, you gain energy resistance 10 to such an effect. You may also choose Damage Reduction 5/x as part of this, with x being one type of damage that may bypass the damage reduction, chosen by you. You may choose this ability again in order to gain a bonus against a new type of save or new energy resistance, or increase an existing bonus to saves by 3, existing energy resistance by 5, or existing damage reduction by 5.


The Claws that Catch: You gain a +3 bonus to grapple checks with your natural weapons. You may take this ability again to increase the bonus by 2.

So Fly: You gain a movement speed you do not already have. This new movement speed is equal to your base land speed. You may select this ability again, either to gain another new movement speed or increase an existing one by 10 ft.

Energy Blow- Prerequisites: Bomf!. You may now add your Bomf damage to any melee or ranged melee attack.

Enhancement: You gain a +1 bonus to any stat of your choice.

Enhanced Affiliation: You gain the Devotion feat for the/a domain you chose for your affiliation. You may double its duration or, if it's instantaneous, effects it produces. You gain an additional use of it for every 5 levels you have in this class. You may select this ability again in order to gain an additional use of the Devotion feat.

Immune: Prerequisite: 15th level, +12 bonus to saves against an effect or energy resistance 30. You gain immunity to either the effect you have the requisite bonus to saves against or the type of energy you have the requisite resistance to. You may take this ability again, each time for a new immunity, so long as you meet the prerequisites for it.

I Go Where I Want: You gain the ability to either Water Walk, Air Walk, or Shadow Walk(choose one) for 4 rounds per day. You may select this ability again to increase the number of rounds by 3, or to select a new movement option. You may Walk for 1 round and not count this against your number of rounds per day, although you must wait 1d4 minutes before doing so again.

That Was a Love-Tap: You gain a +2 bonus to Natural Armor. You may select this ability again to increase this bonus by 2.

Diverse Servitors-Prerequisite: Servitors. You may select any one other creature type than Animal and the one you chose for Servitors. You may add it to the types of Servitor you can create.

Soul Energy: You gain an essentia pool of (or increase your existing one by) 2
essentia points. This ability may be taken again to increase your essentia pool by 2 points each time.

Pumped Up-Prerequisite: Alternate Form. You may enhance your Alternate Forms. You may advance a form by 1 HD by expending 2 Channel Points per HD. This effect lasts for 2 minutes per level, and cannot enhance a form to have more HD than you do.


Servitors: At 4th level, you begin to be able to make your own servants, creatures made up of your supernatural power. Select any one type of creature except for Animal, and two subtypes with little to no in-game effect. You may create up to 3 x your HD in servitors, treating them as eidolons with 5 binding points per HD the servitor has. All HD is racial HD, and each eidolon selects skills from 4 chosen for them by the Entity. A Servitor may not have more than one less HD than you. Also, Servitors may gain the abilities of 1 level of a monster class(excluding NA and ability enhancements, and resistances) by expending 5 binding points for the first level, and 5 additional points being added to the cost of each successive level in the same monster class(10 for the 2nd level, 15 for the 3rd and so on). Servitors may not gain levels in monster classes for monsters that are not of their own type, and may not gain more monster levels than 1/2 their HD. Servitors may be created by the Entity focusing for 30 minutes per HD of Servitor.

Entity Enhancement: At 8th level, and every 8 levels after, the Entity's transformation into a supernatural force enhances both its body and mind, gaining a +1 to all ability scores at these levels.

Tomorrow's Might: At 12th level, you learn to wield a bit of your true power. You gain a Salient Ability that you meet the prerequisites for. You may treat yourself as having a Divine Rank of 1 for all effects that depend on Divine Rank. You do not gain any of the other benefits of being a deity, and still technically do not have a divine rank.

Grand Being: At 20th level, you fully come into the power that lies within you. You gain a Divine Rank of 0. Also, you may change your creature type to any other at this time. Additionally, for a number of rounds per day equal to 1/2 your level, you may summon your HD in temporary servitors and treat your class level as 1 higher for all effects.


Well, that's it. Please PEACH and comment, and also maybe give a tier estimate if you could, as I'm not exactly sure what tier I would place this in.

Demidos
2011-04-22, 09:44 PM
May want to change good save and bad save to fort and reflex in the table:smallsmile:

Looks cool, I like it!

I, Dashing Cube
2011-04-22, 10:17 PM
As always, this seems pretty good :smallcool:

As for the power level, this is pretty much tier 2, having about the same versatility as Psion or a Sorcerer, but a little more flexibility, but less spells (or whatever) per day, and maybe a bit more power with the companion (although both do get a familiar).

Tommorow's Might could be a little too powerful, as some salient divine abilities could be problematic (mastery of death or divine splendor tend to be the worst offenders here).

The only thing that could be confusing is the fact that Channeled Might mentions expenditure of points equal to the effect level, but doesn't say if it's caster level or spell level. You might also want to say if the psionic powers are automatically augmented to your caster level or not, and if it's not the case if you can spend more points to do so.

Finally, as written, this class can't really qualify for any prc, as it does not count as having spellcasting and it's chassis isn't adapted for any other kind of prcs.

Zaydos
2011-04-22, 10:49 PM
I'd say it's definitely significantly stronger than a sorcerer or psion due to its class features, ability to cherry pick the two best spell lists (and 2+ domain lists), and almost as many spells per day as a max Int psion, and companion (although lack of share spells makes that a little more limited). It's awkward, though, since the difference between Tier 1 and 2 isn't power but the ability to rework yourself each day. So it's stronger than a Tier 2 without the halmark of a Tier 1. I'd still say it's probably closer to a well made wizard than it is to a sorcerer or psion.

Also what stat does it use for DCs? Or is it as whoever you're copying it from?

Pyromancer999
2011-04-23, 08:00 AM
May want to change good save and bad save to fort and reflex in the table:smallsmile:

Looks cool, I like it!

Thanks. Actually, the good save and bad save thing isn't a typo. Meant to say that you could choose whether Fortitude or Reflex was your good save or bad save. Still, might change that.


As always, this seems pretty good :smallcool:

As for the power level, this is pretty much tier 2, having about the same versatility as Psion or a Sorcerer, but a little more flexibility, but less spells (or whatever) per day, and maybe a bit more power with the companion (although both do get a familiar).

Yikes. I was sort of aiming for a high tier 3 or low tier 2 with this. Think I'll have to tone this class down a bit.


Tommorow's Might could be a little too powerful, as some salient divine abilities could be problematic (mastery of death or divine splendor tend to be the worst offenders here).

It's only for divine abilties that do not require a divine rank specifically in the prerequisites. Still, if that ability has a function based on divine rank, you count as a Divine Rank 1 deity for the effects.


The only thing that could be confusing is the fact that Channeled Might mentions expenditure of points equal to the effect level, but doesn't say if it's caster level or spell level. You might also want to say if the psionic powers are automatically augmented to your caster level or not, and if it's not the case if you can spend more points to do so.

Basically, you expend 1 Channel Point per level of the effect. So whether it's a 5th level maneuver, spell, power, mystery, etc., it all costs 5 Channel Points to use.


Finally, as written, this class can't really qualify for any prc, as it does not count as having spellcasting and it's chassis isn't adapted for any other kind of prcs.

Well, so long as a PrC has skill and feat prerequisites, it can still qualify. I sort of effectively banned it from casting PrCs in order to prevent stuff like an automatic qualification for Divine Theurge and the like.


I'd say it's definitely significantly stronger than a sorcerer or psion due to its class features, ability to cherry pick the two best spell lists (and 2+ domain lists), and almost as many spells per day as a max Int psion, and companion (although lack of share spells makes that a little more limited). It's awkward, though, since the difference between Tier 1 and 2 isn't power but the ability to rework yourself each day. So it's stronger than a Tier 2 without the halmark of a Tier 1. I'd still say it's probably closer to a well made wizard than it is to a sorcerer or psion.

Yeah. I realize this is a bit overpowered. I think I'm going to have to tone it down quite a bit.

And one last thing:


Also what stat does it use for DCs? Or is it as whoever you're copying it from?
Hurtful, right there. This is 100% original, aside from the use of Eidolons. Still, yes, I forgot the DC stat. I'm thinking to have them just choose 1 mental ability stat, and will add during my revisions.

Zaydos
2011-04-23, 12:33 PM
Hurtful, right there. This is 100% original, aside from the use of Eidolons. Still, yes, I forgot the DC stat. I'm thinking to have them just choose 1 mental ability stat, and will add during my revisions.

I meant whichever class the ability is originally from. Sorry if it came off wrong, I was slightly feverish and suffering insomnia.

Welknair
2011-04-23, 12:44 PM
I find this very interesting. It once again uses a point-based system for utilizing various effects, and gets a very distinct flavor from the Entity's Power abilities. Though they could potentially access any spell (or power, or discipline, or...) list, they're still not Tier 1 as they cannot reassign those decisions to fit coming obstacles.

Oh, that reminds me. You should put in that they can change a spell (or power, or maneuver, or mystery, or...) at fourth and every four levels after that, as long as the desired power is of the correct level.

Looks balanced, interesting, and flavorful. Thumbs up.

Pyromancer999
2011-04-23, 12:55 PM
I meant whichever class the ability is originally from. Sorry if it came off wrong, I was slightly feverish and suffering insomnia.

Alright, then. No worries.


I find this very interesting. It once again uses a point-based system for utilizing various effects, and gets a very distinct flavor from the Entity's Power abilities. Though they could potentially access any spell (or power, or discipline, or...) list, they're still not Tier 1 as they cannot reassign those decisions to fit coming obstacles.

Oh, that reminds me. You should put in that they can change a spell (or power, or maneuver, or mystery, or...) at fourth and every four levels after that, as long as the desired power is of the correct level.

Looks balanced, interesting, and flavorful. Thumbs up.

Thanks. Still, I legitimately went back to calculate the casting power, and it's got way too many Channel Points, and would probably be able to out-cast Psions and Sorcerers alike as it is. Think I'll try and scale that back a bit. Still, like the idea of changing a spell every 4th level, and I'll try to incorporate that when I go back to make it more the tier range I was aiming for.

Zaydos
2011-04-23, 12:57 PM
Oh yeah, a question I was wondering last night is why did you change from the psionic PP system of 2 x level - 1 to level for cost?

Pyromancer999
2011-04-23, 01:08 PM
Oh yeah, a question I was wondering last night is why did you change from the psionic PP system of 2 x level - 1 to level for cost?

Well, basically because it's easier to have a more universal system for making use of mysteries, powers, and all that based on flat-out level. So, basically, for the convenience.

Also, following changes made:

-Channeling Point pool reduced to something a bit more reasonable
-Casting Stat provided for
-Companion's binding points changed from 5 per HD to 4 per HD
-Welknair's effect-exchange idea incorporated
-Able to choose whether Reflex or Fortitude is your good save.

Welknair
2011-04-23, 01:34 PM
Woop. That's what I get for not analyzing the spell progression. Yeah, that needs a bit of tweaking.

Also, can you Augment powers? :smallconfused:

Perhaps each extra point you spend counts as 2 PP for augmenting? That's about right...

Pyromancer999
2011-04-23, 01:42 PM
That sounds about right. I'll add that in. Also........


New Idea: Feats to grant additional Entity's Power options(ex. Trickster, Draconic, BBEG, Force of Good/Bad/Evil/Chaos).

Good/Bad/Okay idea?

Welknair
2011-04-23, 01:45 PM
Sounds like an interesting idea. So you'd need the feat and it would unlock a new Power for choosing? Or would it just give it to you?

Noxsis
2011-04-23, 01:56 PM
i wonder what a epic progression would look like(and yes i know epic is broken i still would like to see one)

Welknair
2011-04-23, 03:50 PM
i wonder what a epic progression would look like(and yes i know epic is broken i still would like to see one)

Uh...

Well, the points would stop increasing (as is true for all casting classes), for one. As for abilities... I guess you could state that you keep getting the Entity Powers every level except multiples of four? :smallconfused: Actually, now that I think about it, that's kinda weird. There isn't a set pattern as on 20th you do get a power, but you don't at first. Besides that, the "All but multiples of four" would work.

Epic Entity Powers would also be an interesting concept...

YouLostMe
2011-04-23, 04:05 PM
It appears that your servitor abilility drains the servitors so that when they die, they never come back. Is it a 1/day thing? On the same vein, the servitors seem more powerful than your ever-present eidolon companion, as you get 3x as many hit dice (without them costing anything), you can make your servitors of any type (DRAGONS RAWR), and they get more points per HD than your companion does. Hell, the current access to servitors seems stronger than the standard Eidolon Binder's access... which is weird and broken-seeming.

In other news, do the servitors or your companion have items that they are bound into like standard Eidolons?

Pyromancer999
2011-04-23, 04:17 PM
Sounds like an interesting idea. So you'd need the feat and it would unlock a new Power for choosing? Or would it just give it to you?

Actually, it'd be more like you'd unlock a set of new Powers for the choosing. So, taking the Trickster Entity feat, for example, would add all the Trickster Entity powers to your choices for the Entity's Power ability.


It appears that your servitor abilility drains the servitors so that when they die, they never come back. Is it a 1/day thing? On the same vein, the servitors seem more powerful than your ever-present eidolon companion, as you get 3x as many hit dice (without them costing anything), you can make your servitors of any type (DRAGONS RAWR), and they get more points per HD than your companion does. Hell, the current access to servitors seems stronger than the standard Eidolon Binder's access... which is weird and broken-seeming.

In other news, do the servitors or your companion have items that they are bound into like standard Eidolons?

Well, your companion is basically sort of an almost-on-level-with-you demi-familiar, so it's not suprising it's not going to be as powerful as your servitors that will probably be more made for combat and the like. It's complicated. Anyways, yes, you can create more servitors after they die. However, you can't bind Servitors or your Companion into items. That's where the Eidolon Binder gets the advantage. While you get more HD creatures(although with a little help, the Eidolon Binder could do just as well creature-wise), you can't get the benefits of a bound Eidolon in an item. This factor gives the Eidolon Binder a major leg up in the realm of getting eidolons of sorts.


i wonder what a epic progression would look like(and yes i know epic is broken i still would like to see one)

Basically, it'd go how Welknair said. It'd get Entity Power every level except for 24th, in which it'd get the Entity Enhancement class feature again(although you could change it to Epic Entity Enhancement and give it +2 to all scores, which I wouldn't reccomend), and for 28th level, I'd just either let the Entity become a Level 1 Demigod with no need for worshippers, or just gain another divine ability as per Hint of Tomorrow.

YouLostMe
2011-04-23, 07:52 PM
Sure, but it seems that (as written) your class allows you to make a 12 HD Dragon with Regen 1 [weakness: Sonic] and deep slumber 3/day... You can outfit your companion with invisibility 3/day so that you can hide while your monster terrorizes the countryside.

Normally, the E-Binder has limitations. HD cost points based on monster type, and they can't be higher than his own. Since the Entity disregards this first restriction by allowing you to create all sorts of crazy crap without needed a feat like an E-Binder and not using points, it would make sense that the second restriction can be disregarded too, unless explicitly stated. So I did that, and have created a super tank dragon at level 4.

Now, if you instated that HD=Level cap, an Entity could alternatively have 3 Dragon Servitors with them (just as crazy), and do just about the same thing, but with a tag-team of 3 monsters for crowd grapple or mass precision damage shenanigans.

So I think the servitors need to be toned down... HD no greater than your level should be explicitly stated, and you shouldn't be allowed to have more than one out at a time.

ANOTHER BALANCE CONCERN: At the Entity's option, he/she/it can gain a bonus feat at levels 2-3. Weak casting, good for buffs or utility + a decent eidolon companion + 2 bonus feats of any kind make this a fantastic 3-level dip. Seems a tad strong.

Last thing, So Fly can give you a fly speed at level 2. OP.

Pyromancer999
2011-04-23, 08:55 PM
Sure, but it seems that (as written) your class allows you to make a 12 HD Dragon with Regen 1 [weakness: Sonic] and deep slumber 3/day... You can outfit your companion with invisibility 3/day so that you can hide while your monster terrorizes the countryside.

Normally, the E-Binder has limitations. HD cost points based on monster type, and they can't be higher than his own. Since the Entity disregards this first restriction by allowing you to create all sorts of crazy crap without needed a feat like an E-Binder and not using points, it would make sense that the second restriction can be disregarded too, unless explicitly stated. So I did that, and have created a super tank dragon at level 4.


Now, if you instated that HD=Level cap, an Entity could alternatively have 3 Dragon Servitors with them (just as crazy), and do just about the same thing, but with a tag-team of 3 monsters for crowd grapple or mass precision damage shenanigans.


So I think the servitors need to be toned down... HD no greater than your level should be explicitly stated, and you shouldn't be allowed to have more than one out at a time.



Servitors: At 4th level, you begin to be able to make your own servants, creatures made up of your supernatural power. Select any one type of creature except for Animal, and two subtypes with little to no in-game effect. You may create up to 3 x your HD in servitors, treating them as eidolons with 5 binding points per HD the servitor has. All HD is racial HD, and each eidolon selects skills from 4 chosen for them by the Entity. A Servitor may not have more than one less HD than you. Also, Servitors may gain the abilities of 1 level of a monster class(excluding NA and ability enhancements, and resistances) by expending 5 binding points for the first level, and 5 additional points being added to the cost of each successive level in the same monster class(10 for the 2nd level, 15 for the 3rd and so on). Servitors may not gain levels in monster classes for monsters that are not of their own type, and may not gain more monster levels than 1/2 their HD. Servitors may be created by the Entity focusing for 30 minutes per HD of Servitor.




ANOTHER BALANCE CONCERN: At the Entity's option, he/she/it can gain a bonus feat at levels 2-3. Weak casting, good for buffs or utility + a decent eidolon companion + 2 bonus feats of any kind make this a fantastic 3-level dip. Seems a tad strong.




Entity's Power: An Entity's Power manifests itself in other ways than through effects that mimic spells and such sort. At 2nd level, and all other levels listed on the table above, the Entity chooses one ability from the table below. If an ability can be taken more than once, you cannot take it twice in a row:


Please, re-read the material in order to make sure you haven't misread something. Granted, they are just one sentence amongst many in the wall of text, so next time, just re-read something if it seems a bit overpowered to you.

YouLostMe
2011-04-24, 12:48 AM
Please, re-read the material in order to make sure you haven't misread something. Granted, they are just one sentence amongst many in the wall of text, so next time, just re-read something if it seems a bit overpowered to you.

Guess who can't read? I swear I looked all over for those, and didn't find anything...

So Fly is still problematic, and I voice a similar problem with the free feat for a 2-level dip, though that's not really a concern anymore.

Pyromancer999
2011-04-24, 08:24 AM
Guess who can't read? I swear I looked all over for those, and didn't find anything...

Eh, no worries. I'm beginning to think that there's enough detail in my class feature descriptions that people might accidentally skip over some stuff.


So Fly is still problematic, and I voice a similar problem with the free feat for a 2-level dip, though that's not really a concern anymore.

Really, the bonus feat isn't that much of a problem unless in the hands of an optimizer, in whose hands all things are dangerous. In any case, my Pantologist class would probably be more of a worry to you, because a three level dip in that would give you two bonus feats, and if you play it from 1st level, you get a feat at every level. In any case, enough about that. For So Fly, I'm getting where you can see it's problematic. There's two things I can do: Reduce the speed by 10-15 ft, or place a level prerequisite on it, the latter which I rather wouldn't do.

YouLostMe
2011-04-25, 10:14 PM
My preference would be: "You cannot use this to gain a fly speed until you have X HD"... where X is some value like 5 or 6. That way somebody can make themselves a god-mole at level 2, but can't be a god-eagle until at least level 5-6.

Also, what is the Pantologist class?

Pyromancer999
2011-04-26, 02:57 PM
My preference would be: "You cannot use this to gain a fly speed until you have X HD"... where X is some value like 5 or 6. That way somebody can make themselves a god-mole at level 2, but can't be a god-eagle until at least level 5-6.

I'm thinking about just reducing the speed if they choose it at earlier levels (to around 5-10 ft), then just letting it increase by a certain amount/level until it reaches their land speed. From there, all speeds would probably just be equal to land speed. Anyways, if players can optimize like my players can, I'd be more worried about a burrow speed.


Also, what is the Pantologist class?
It's a class I made that, if taken from 1st level, gets you a feat at every level. Still has a bunch of bonus feats. It's located here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178185). Does not involve pants. Unless you want it to.

YouLostMe
2011-04-27, 01:10 AM
Anyways, if players can optimize like my players can, I'd be more worried about a burrow speed.

Really? What do your players with burrow that beats infinite kiting? I wanna know.

Pyromancer999
2011-04-27, 02:52 PM
Really? What do your players with burrow that beats infinite kiting? I wanna know.

Getting through dungeons with little to no conflict, surprise attacks, and so many more horrible things. Trust me, burrow is a bigger problem for me than flying. Except with dragons. That's the one exception.

Epsilon Rose
2011-04-27, 03:46 PM
Hm, interesting concept.
I haven't looked closely enough to do an in-depth critique, but it strikes me that the channel points might work better on a per encounter timer, especially if you choose things like maneuvers which are balanced to be used more often then spells.

Vulaas
2011-04-27, 04:19 PM
The gaining an SDA that you meet prerequisites for is potent beyond belief. A Cleric 1/Entity 12 qualifies for Divine Fire Mastery, which gives numerous benefits ranging from simple immunity to any fire or heat effects, all the way up any spell with the Fire descriptor at will, which means that among other things they can throw meteor swarm around every round, which is more than a little unbalancing, and this is not even the worst offender as far as SLA you can have goes. Divine Water Mastery lets you destroy metropolises as a full round action, Gift of Life means that so long as this character survives your party will see death as an inconvenience rather than an actual problem and they can even return their enemies to life against their will to interrogate them.

Simply put, the idea of having these sorts of powers in a mid level game is terrifying.

Pyromancer999
2011-04-27, 04:46 PM
Hm, interesting concept.
I haven't looked closely enough to do an in-depth critique, but it strikes me that the channel points might work better on a per encounter timer, especially if you choose things like maneuvers which are balanced to be used more often then spells.

Hmmm...true. Although I may just adjust the system so that maneuvers aren't left out, perhaps doing something like refreshing Channel Points used on maneuvers at the beginning of the next encounter.


The gaining an SDA that you meet prerequisites for is potent beyond belief. A Cleric 1/Entity 12 qualifies for Divine Fire Mastery, which gives numerous benefits ranging from simple immunity to any fire or heat effects, all the way up any spell with the Fire descriptor at will, which means that among other things they can throw meteor swarm around every round, which is more than a little unbalancing, and this is not even the worst offender as far as SLA you can have goes. Divine Water Mastery lets you destroy metropolises as a full round action, Gift of Life means that so long as this character survives your party will see death as an inconvenience rather than an actual problem and they can even return their enemies to life against their will to interrogate them.

Simply put, the idea of having these sorts of powers in a mid level game is terrifying.

Convincing enough. However, I would like to make an ability that shows what power they have in store. I'll have to re-do that ability.

Vulaas
2011-04-28, 04:00 PM
Would maybe getting access to a single domain be a good replacement, giving both the domain ability and 1/day each spell from it as an SLA at the appropriate levels (excluding the Planar Domains, of course)? Then it's still potent, flavorful ability, but not overpowering anything else you can do.

Tacitus
2011-04-28, 04:33 PM
As I have with other projects of a similar sort, I'd suggest having a list of Mini-SDAs that replicate (or are faithful to) the SDAs you can qualify for with DvR1 but at a lower level of power, and if the character ever actually gains DvR1 then the Mini-SDA gets upgraded to a full SDA as a bonus SDA.

Epsilon Rose
2011-04-28, 04:49 PM
Would maybe getting access to a single domain be a good replacement, giving both the domain ability and 1/day each spell from it as an SLA at the appropriate levels (excluding the Planar Domains, of course)? Then it's still potent, flavorful ability, but not overpowering anything else you can do.

That's not nearly as fun. I will agree that some of the Salient abilities can utterly break things, but getting a single domain from which you can only cast each spell once a day seems fairly boring and lack luster as a mid-level ability, it also links them more to divine casting than strictly necessary.

Pyromancer999
2011-04-28, 07:09 PM
That sounds about right. I'll add that in. Also........


New Idea: Feats to grant additional Entity's Power options(ex. Trickster, Draconic, BBEG, Force of Good/Bad/Evil/Chaos).

Good/Bad/Okay idea?

Hmmm.... Actually, all of you remember this? It's from this same thread, but I'm just quoting it for relevance. I plan to enact this idea when I have time, so how about at that level, the Entity gets that as a bonus feat? It wouldn't be just another bonus feat, because I plan to make it so you can't take it as a bonus feat, so that we don't end up with Entitys that have bunches of aspects to them, making them too complicated.

Qwertystop
2011-04-28, 08:48 PM
This seems really interesting, if a bit overwhelming at first.

Pyromancer999
2011-04-29, 02:45 PM
This seems really interesting, if a bit overwhelming at first.

Thanks. :smallsmile:

So, I'm thinking up some of those feats I mentioned before, which will now be officially called Aspect Feats. I plan for them to grant a small bonus/ability based upon the grouping of powers in the Aspect, and for there to be anywhere from 4-6 powers available per Aspect feat. If I were to grant one as a bonus feat to replace the 12th level SDA, I'd also allow them to immediately gain one of the powers of the feat. I'm thinking of having Domain prerequisites for these.

Thoughts?

Epsilon Rose
2011-04-29, 07:36 PM
Thanks. :smallsmile:

So, I'm thinking up some of those feats I mentioned before, which will now be officially called Aspect Feats. I plan for them to grant a small bonus/ability based upon the grouping of powers in the Aspect, and for there to be anywhere from 4-6 powers available per Aspect feat. If I were to grant one as a bonus feat to replace the 12th level SDA, I'd also allow them to immediately gain one of the powers of the feat. I'm thinking of having Domain prerequisites for these.

Thoughts?

I'm not sure I followed all of that, but if it works the way I think it does then I'm not a fan. The problem is that with the current wording it seems that while you'll get one of the abilities for free you'll have to pay for the others. As it is your already only get to choose 1 power every other level from Your list of powers, and seeing what those can draw from you already have some very good options, and that additional domain ability thing (which doesn't actualy work at the moment). Meaning that if you take these feats your you're not goin to be able to choose any of your normal abilities, and your probably only going to want one of these anyways.

Pyromancer999
2011-04-29, 08:49 PM
I'm not sure I followed all of that, but if it works the way I think it does then I'm not a fan. The problem is that with the current wording it seems that while you'll get one of the abilities for free you'll have to pay for the others. As it is your already only get to choose 1 power every other level from Your list of powers, and seeing what those can draw from you already have some very good options, and that additional domain ability thing (which doesn't actualy work at the moment). Meaning that if you take these feats your you're not goin to be able to choose any of your normal abilities, and your probably only going to want one of these anyways.

It seems you've misunderstood. I'm talking about Entity Powers. These feats would unlock those Entity powers as options. It wouldn't make you unable to take an Entity Power from the existing list, but rather add on the feat-provided Entity Powers to your list of options. So, you're just gaining options, rather than depriving yourself of anything. Also, the additional domain ability seems fine to me.

Epsilon Rose
2011-04-29, 09:31 PM
It seems you've misunderstood. I'm talking about Entity Powers. These feats would unlock those Entity powers as options. It wouldn't make you unable to take an Entity Power from the existing list, but rather add on the feat-provided Entity Powers to your list of options. So, you're just gaining options, rather than depriving yourself of anything. Also, the additional domain ability seems fine to me.

It's not that it's removing the list, it's that as things are now you only get to choose ten powers. As you already have two extensive lists to choose from adding more options is fairly meaningless and suggests that you shouldn't be taking from the lists you already have.

As for additional affiliations:
Part of the problem was when I was making that comment I was reading it on my Iphone so I only saw the 1 on each odd level bit. That said it still seems like a fairly small number of choices for the number of things that can be drawn from. Of course the wilder only gets eleven powers period so that might not be such an issue.

Tacitus
2011-04-29, 09:48 PM
I think the Entity Powers need to feel a bit more... impressive. A fair number of them don't really do much, and none of them scale without using another of your Entity Power choices in order to take them again. I'd like to see more things scale according to your class level, more active options, and perhaps even some class features as Entity Powers.

Also, Bomf should specify what damage types you can choose from. As is you can deal 1d8 vile damage all day long at second level. Definitely a problem.

Honestly, by taking Entity Power 9 times, the Resist Energy power a few times, and get some DR you're essentially a patchwork warlock, but you know, bad at it. At least for Bomf I'd suggest allowing it to scale damage. Close Range (ie, 25ft+5ft/2 levels) at 1/4LvLd6 of a basic energy type for picking it once with options to increase the scaling, die size, range, energy type, and action (from Standard to Attack) by taking it multiple times. Say you take it ten times by 20; Instead of 10d8 at 55ft it'd be like 10d10 Force at Long Range as an Attack Action.

A standard action 10d8 Fire at 55ft isn't very impressive. 10d10 Force at 1200ft as an attack action is, but its not broken.

Unless, of course, you're aiming to balance around tier 4 or 5, then yeah.

Pyromancer999
2011-04-30, 07:19 AM
I think the Entity Powers need to feel a bit more... impressive. A fair number of them don't really do much, and none of them scale without using another of your Entity Power choices in order to take them again. I'd like to see more things scale according to your class level, more active options, and perhaps even some class features as Entity Powers.

You can learn techniques through Entity Powers, which allows you to make use of various class features of other classes.


Also, Bomf should specify what damage types you can choose from. As is you can deal 1d8 vile damage all day long at second level. Definitely a problem.

Honestly, by taking Entity Power 9 times, the Resist Energy power a few times, and get some DR you're essentially a patchwork warlock, but you know, bad at it. At least for Bomf I'd suggest allowing it to scale damage. Close Range (ie, 25ft+5ft/2 levels) at 1/4LvLd6 of a basic energy type for picking it once with options to increase the scaling, die size, range, energy type, and action (from Standard to Attack) by taking it multiple times. Say you take it ten times by 20; Instead of 10d8 at 55ft it'd be like 10d10 Force at Long Range as an Attack Action.

A standard action 10d8 Fire at 55ft isn't very impressive. 10d10 Force at 1200ft as an attack action is, but its not broken.

Unless, of course, you're aiming to balance around tier 4 or 5, then yeah.

Yeah, I'm getting the feeling it should scale, but I'm sort of aiming for a high tier 3-low tier 2 range here. I'm thinking that maybe, at some point, or maybe right off the bat, your Entity powers improve as though you had taken them a number of additional times equal to (class level-level Entity Power was learned)/2 or 3. This would probably allow for the ability to improve, but not at a crazily-powerful rate. Not sure if this is overpowered or not, though, as one should remember it's kgot a pretty decent casting ability as-is, in addition to the Entity Powers. Thoughts on this?

Tacitus
2011-04-30, 07:36 PM
>.> I'd completely forgotten about the Techniques bit when I'd written that post. I probably even looked right at it.

Random side note, why starting gold of d% x 100gp? Thats... ridiculously high. Like, potentially past WBL for a 5th level character at first level. Placemarker, maybe?

I just had a thought. What would you say to more Entity Power choices, but throwing in improvements to the class's chassis? ie, high BAB, better saves, more skill points, larger HD, etc. Retroactive, of course, and probably with a change of the existing chassis down to bare bones and damn near crappy. Maybe give like two Entity Powers at first level that have to be used on chassis improvements. Just a thought.

As for giving virtual increases to the Powers at a certain level... eh. Why not just rewrite them? If the Powers have inherently better scaling you wouldn't have to include virtual increases. If I had more time at the computer right now I'd go through and try a potential rewrite of some of them for you as a suggestion, but in general using fractions or multiples of class level are good. I'll throw up what I can right quick.

Also, the Resistance/+Saves/DR thing should probably just be split up into separate powers to read better. ie, a power that gives ER, one that gives DR, and one that gives +Saves to a group of effects (not just a single effect as written). It'd mean that people could get better resistances faster, but thats not a terrible thing.

For ER [Energy Resistance, if its not clear] I'd suggest using 1/2 LvL as the first option, increase to =LvL for the second, 2xLvL for 3rd, and a 4th that either increases it again or grants Immune if the ER reaches/exceeds 30 or 40 (or both, heck, maybe even roll the Immunity caveat into the 3rd choice). Though, you may want to word them all as Existing ER Increases if you'd like it to stack with any existing ER, and not specify where the ER has to come from to get up to Immunity.

The above would cover some territory of the Immune, but thats kinda my point. Some things you could probably just make an Immune option for, but give a level requirements instead of having to have Can't Touch This. Fear, for instance, would be like a 2nd level Entity Power and bam, you're immune to fear forever. Could even make an entire line out of Mind-Immunities. Fear, then Charm/Compulsion, then all Mind-Affecting, then full out Mindblank (it has a Divination exception thing, right?).

For DR, I'd change it so that your DR scaled to like 1/2HD by taking it once, but has an easy way to break. Say take it once and it is overcome by Magic, Alignment, or Material (ie, any of those tags on an attack lets it through). Give options to take out things that bypass it (so 2nd time makes it say Align or Material, 3rd is just Align, 4th is Nothing). DR 5/- at 10th level might be a bit much though... Probably give the DR/- a level requirement.

For the Natural Armor thing, first option for NA=1/2 of an ability Mod (Con is common), and a second choice for NA=full Mod. Scales much better.

Uh, to be honest, many of these ideas are coming from the Community Monster Class project that was recently mod-hammered. It had good ideas, and scaling is love. XD

Honestly, I really like the idea for the class. I really do.

...and times up

Pyromancer999
2011-05-01, 09:12 AM
>.> I'd completely forgotten about the Techniques bit when I'd written that post. I probably even looked right at it.

Random side note, why starting gold of d% x 100gp? Thats... ridiculously high. Like, potentially past WBL for a 5th level character at first level. Placemarker, maybe?

Eh, yeah. Just realized that. I'll just make it a flat 40-50 gp.


I just had a thought. What would you say to more Entity Power choices, but throwing in improvements to the class's chassis? ie, high BAB, better saves, more skill points, larger HD, etc. Retroactive, of course, and probably with a change of the existing chassis down to bare bones and damn near crappy. Maybe give like two Entity Powers at first level that have to be used on chassis improvements. Just a thought.

Not entirely sure about what you mean by chassis, but basically, here's what you've got to consider: This class is getting a decent casting ability from not just one list, but two, although granted that it's getting only a handful of spells from each list. Still, while I wouldn't give two Entity Powers to use on Chassis improvements, I'd be willing to consider allowing one or two Entity Powers that scale with level.


As for giving virtual increases to the Powers at a certain level... eh. Why not just rewrite them? If the Powers have inherently better scaling you wouldn't have to include virtual increases. If I had more time at the computer right now I'd go through and try a potential rewrite of some of them for you as a suggestion, but in general using fractions or multiples of class level are good. I'll throw up what I can right quick.

Eh, virtual increases are preferred in this case, as I'm concerned that scaling outright for multiple Entity Powers would probably push it over the tier range I'm aiming for (high tier 3 - low tier 2). Still, virtual increasing would also be a tad easier, and more universal in application.

Also, the Resistance/+Saves/DR thing should probably just be split up into separate powers to read better. ie, a power that gives ER, one that gives DR, and one that gives +Saves to a group of effects (not just a single effect as written). It'd mean that people could get better resistances faster, but thats not a terrible thing.
[/QUOTE]
It's single type of effects. So, insta-death effects, mind-affecting effects, fear effects, etc.



For ER [Energy Resistance, if its not clear] I'd suggest using 1/2 LvL as the first option, increase to =LvL for the second, 2xLvL for 3rd, and a 4th that either increases it again or grants Immune if the ER reaches/exceeds 30 or 40 (or both, heck, maybe even roll the Immunity caveat into the 3rd choice). Though, you may want to word them all as Existing ER Increases if you'd like it to stack with any existing ER, and not specify where the ER has to come from to get up to Immunity.

The problem with increasing like this is that you could get complete energy immunity by 10th level this way, or even sooner with virtual increases.


The above would cover some territory of the Immune, but thats kinda my point. Some things you could probably just make an Immune option for, but give a level requirements instead of having to have Can't Touch This. Fear, for instance, would be like a 2nd level Entity Power and bam, you're immune to fear forever. Could even make an entire line out of Mind-Immunities. Fear, then Charm/Compulsion, then all Mind-Affecting, then full out Mindblank (it has a Divination exception thing, right?).

Hmmm... This is true. While I wouldn't be too keen on immunity of the energy kind, I could get behind this, although I wouldn't give the outright immunity listed here. However, I'd be open to laxing the requirements for these types of immunity.


For DR, I'd change it so that your DR scaled to like 1/2HD by taking it once, but has an easy way to break. Say take it once and it is overcome by Magic, Alignment, or Material (ie, any of those tags on an attack lets it through). Give options to take out things that bypass it (so 2nd time makes it say Align or Material, 3rd is just Align, 4th is Nothing). DR 5/- at 10th level might be a bit much though... Probably give the DR/- a level requirement.

That's basically how it is, minus the scaling + break progression.


For the Natural Armor thing, first option for NA=1/2 of an ability Mod (Con is common), and a second choice for NA=full Mod. Scales much better.

True, it scales better, but see my previous thing about scaling.


Uh, to be honest, many of these ideas are coming from the Community Monster Class project that was recently mod-hammered. It had good ideas, and scaling is love. XD

So I guessed. :smallbiggrin: While I'm a pretty big fan of scaling, I'm also on the balance bandwagon. One of the main differences between this class and the monster classes is that most don't have 20 levels. Another is that they're only getting a few abilities that scale, while the Entity has roughly 15 that it's got to worry about. So, while scaling these abilities on the surface looks good, once you really look at it, it's pretty easy to become a power-monster with scaling.


Honestly, I really like the idea for the class. I really do.


Thanks.

Shades of Gray
2011-05-01, 07:34 PM
100*d% is ridiculous. 100 alone is average for most characters, and the potential for 10,000 gold at level one is gamebreaking.

Pyromancer999
2011-05-01, 08:05 PM
100*d% is ridiculous. 100 alone is average for most characters, and the potential for 10,000 gold at level one is gamebreaking.

Yeah, I agree after realizing I've been using d% wrong for years. I meant 100 x whatever percent you'd roll with the d% dice.

Qwertystop
2011-05-01, 08:12 PM
Yeah, I agree after realizing I've been using d% wrong for years. I meant 100 x whatever percent you'd roll with the d% dice.

So (100/d%)?

Tacitus
2011-05-01, 08:21 PM
Or just GP=d%, which can also be crushingly low at first level. Which is why most classes use 4 to 6 d4s and then multiply by ten. Gives a range of 40 to at most 240gp, and it works.

Pyromancer999
2011-05-01, 08:36 PM
I'll just make it 5d4 x 10 gp, then.

Pyromancer999
2011-05-02, 06:20 PM
Alright, so here's what I'm thinking about for Aspects and the kinds of Entity Powers they'd grant:

BBEG: For your stereotypical bad guy
-Double evil-aligned spells/powers
-More minions
-Something to do with an evil aura and manipulating it

Celestial: For those holy boys and girls
-Smite Evil
-Archon subtype(probably reduced)
-Double good descriptor spells/powers

Gods: For your gods in training
-Able to grant limited spells
-Limited Deity Powers
-Weakened SDAs?
-Able to create holy/unholy Servants

Devilish: For devil boys and girls
-Devil Powers

Demonic: For Demon boys and girls
-Demon Powers

Trickster: Mischevious Entity
-Shape-shifting
-Better shape-shifting
-Silver Tongue sort of deal
-Teleportation?

Pactmaker: Where do the Warlocks come from? Pacts with otherworldy Entities. Like these
-Pactmaking ability with people
-Warlock-granting/summoning powers


Bodiless: For those mysterious entities that possess people
-Possession
-Able to enter a bodiless state

Undead: For your never-dying forces
-Undead Possession
-Undead raising powers, enhanced
-Undead traits?

Seduction: For those entities that are skilled in mind manipulation
- More Mind-affecting spells/powers
- Mind control


Thoughts on these, and any suggestions for additional types of Aspects?

Metahuman1
2011-05-02, 09:07 PM
I never thought I'd live to see myself type this for anybody.

This concept all but demands to be a Tier 1 class. And not a weak T1 either. Good lord your concept is something that eventually get's into the same power level as a GOD! (And yes, "IT'S OVER 9000!!!!!!" There, I said it, I feel dirty enough as it is, have your chuckle and let that part go and let's get back too the matter at hand.) You can't be Matching a god move for move, or as you put it "Get away with Kicking Pelor" if that god's Cleric can out preform you on a regular bases on anything you don't specialize in.

So, yeah, it's cool, I like it, Needs too be T1 though. If you like, maybe give options to put in in T1, T2, or T3 so that that way everyone can get a level of capability's they and there GM will be comfortable with?

Tacitus
2011-05-02, 09:17 PM
Actually, I kinda like the idea of allowing the class to be modular according to desired Tier. It would probably be quite a bit more work, but it wouldn't necessarily be hard, per se.

Keep the Entity Powers as is for a 3ish, add in Virtual Scaling for 2ish, and add the fractional scaling to reach 1ish. Make sure to note that it cannot by any means cross between the different groups of Entity Powers and if you start as a Minor Entity (ie, T3) you have to stay that way. Same with an Intermediate Entity (T2) and a Greater Entity (T3). This is the path to madness. Delicious awesome madness, FOR SCIENCE!

>.> Ahem. Right.

Might you consider a path for Construct traits? Ooze traits? Magitech/Steampunk Aspiring Deities?

I can see an entire game devoted to playing Greater Entities going down vastly different paths... It would be glorious.

Pyromancer999
2011-05-03, 02:19 PM
I never thought I'd live to see myself type this for anybody.

This concept all but demands to be a Tier 1 class. And not a weak T1 either. Good lord your concept is something that eventually get's into the same power level as a GOD! (And yes, "IT'S OVER 9000!!!!!!" There, I said it, I feel dirty enough as it is, have your chuckle and let that part go and let's get back too the matter at hand.) You can't be Matching a god move for move, or as you put it "Get away with Kicking Pelor" if that god's Cleric can out preform you on a regular bases on anything you don't specialize in.

So, yeah, it's cool, I like it, Needs too be T1 though. If you like, maybe give options to put in in T1, T2, or T3 so that that way everyone can get a level of capability's they and there GM will be comfortable with?

Yeah, that's what I originally thought when I first had this idea. However, I'm thinking more high tier 3- low tier 2 at this point, because here's what you have to think about: Tier 3 characters are good at something, and tier 2 characters are good at something in addition to being good enough at a few other things. Now, think about entities like them: Sauron: Fighty guy, also good at possession and some magics, Axel from Yosh!, who inspired this: Good at blasting magic plus a few others, but can hold his own in a fight, and so on. These beings can't necessarily do anything better than everyone else. So, that's why I'm thinking not tier 1 for this class.


Actually, I kinda like the idea of allowing the class to be modular according to desired Tier. It would probably be quite a bit more work, but it wouldn't necessarily be hard, per se.

Keep the Entity Powers as is for a 3ish, add in Virtual Scaling for 2ish, and add the fractional scaling to reach 1ish. Make sure to note that it cannot by any means cross between the different groups of Entity Powers and if you start as a Minor Entity (ie, T3) you have to stay that way. Same with an Intermediate Entity (T2) and a Greater Entity (T3). This is the path to madness. Delicious awesome madness, FOR SCIENCE!

Hmm... I like this idea. Okay, the Entity as-is will be the tier 3 Entity. Here are my mods for the other tiers:

Tier 2: Add an additional Channel Point at 2nd level, and every other level after. Each Entity Power gets Virtual Scaling, treating Entity Powers as though they have been taken an additional number of times equal to (your level- level taken)/3.

Tier 1: Add an additional Channel Point at each level, and each Entity Power increases by 1 per 2 points of BAB(The reason I just say 1 is because this would have different effects. So, Bamf! gets an additional 1 die of damage, you would get a +1 to NA per 2 points of BAB if you took the appropriate Entity Power, etc. )Also, maybe start out with an Aspect feat.

Hope this satisfies. Still, a little worried about adding in Tier variants, due to the fact that if a DM doesn't place tier restrictions, players will automatically choose the Tier 1 route and own the game. Don't think they'd even need a party.




Might you consider a path for Construct traits? Ooze traits? Magitech/Steampunk Aspiring Deities?

I can see an entire game devoted to playing Greater Entities going down vastly different paths... It would be glorious.
Hmmmm.... I could add in an Ooze-based power for part of the Shapeshifting part of the Trickster Aspect, but not sure about traits. Also, I could probably combo the Construct bit with Magitech/Steampunk aspiring Deities by making a Crafting/Artificier Aspect, which if I make it, will be called the Forge Aspect.

Alright, so, everyone feel free to comment on the tier variants or anything else, and also to give suggestions for Aspect feats and such.

Pyromancer999
2011-05-04, 05:12 PM
Alright, so now that I think I've got most everything else handled about the Entity, it's time for some Aspect feats! Here's three to start: The BBEG, Deific, and Pactmaker Aspect feats!

Aspect Feat Rules

Aspect feats represent what kind of force in the world an Entity is. How long it takes for an Entity to realize this varies, but almost always, in the end manifests itself. Most Entities only have one Aspect feat, but some have two, or maybe even three. Only Entities can take Aspect feats. An Entity can only have one Aspect feat per 10 levels.

Now, for the actual Aspect feats

BBEG[Aspect]
Prerequisites: Access to the Evil Domain, Entity Power class feature
Benefit: You're the classic big, bad evil guy/gal. You rule badness. Now you get the power to show it. Firstly, your attacks are treated as Evil-aligned for bypassing damage reduction. Secondly, when you gain the Servitor class feature, all of your servitors automatically gain the Evil subtype. Thirdly, when choosing Entity Powers, you may choose Entity Powers from this list, in addition to ones from the list already available to you:

Minions: You can now make an additional 3 HD of Servitors. You may select this Entity Power again in order to gain its effect again.

Bad to the Bone: You're so evil that it causes the good guys to suffer, along with a few other people. You gain an aura with a radius of 20 ft. Good-aligned creatures entering this aura take 1d8 untyped damage and must make a Fortitude save or become nauseated for one round. All other creatures instead only take 1d4 damage, but must still save against nausea. You may take this ability again in order to increase the radius by 10, and the nauseated effect last an additional round. The damage dealt by this ability increases by 1 per two times this ability is selected.

Malevolent Power: You may select two spells/powers/etc. instead of one from your lists, so long as the spells/powers/etc. have the Evil descriptor. You may take this ability again in order to gain an additional spell/power/etc. with the Evil descriptor

Vile Aura: Prerequisite: Bad to the Bone. You may manipulate your aura to attack those inside it. You may, as a swift action once per round, deal your Bad to the Bone aura's initial damage to any creature within your aura.

Vile Craft: You may create Cursed magic items, regardless of whether you know the actual spells to create one or have the requisite feat for it, so long as you can cast spells of the level required. You may select this ability again in 4 levels to create Cursed Items at 3/4 gold and XP cost.



Deific[Aspect]
Prerequisite: Knowledge(Religion) 5 ranks, Access to Entity Powers
Benefit: You are a god, or to be more precise, a god-in-training. It is your innate divine power that let you become an Entity. Now it's time to show it off. Firstly, you gain access to Outsider servitors as soon as you gain the class feature for it, in addition to whatever other type you choose. Secondly, you can, once per day per two Entity levels as a standard action, endow a being with a measure of your divine might. This lets the creature make use of one spell of from a domain your know of level equal to or less than half the level of the highest spell you can make use of. Thirdly, you get access to some divine powers as you power up:

Expanded Affiliation: You may make one additional use of a power granted by one domain you know per day. Should the ability grant a bonus, resistance, or some other constant effect, its effects are doubled for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your Entity level instead. You may select this ability again in order to gain another additional use.

Divine Aura: You gain the Divine Aura ability of a Divine Rank 1 deity, but may only manifest 1 Divine Aura effect, chosen when this ability is, and can only be manifested for a number of rounds per day equal to 3/4 your Entity level(minimum 1).

Divine Tongue: You gain the ability to understand and speak all languages.

Disciples: You gain some fledgling followers. While not necessarily with you at all times, you can still grant some power to them. This allows the Entity to grant spells and domain(s) to mortal worshippers, although none can have a cleric level higher than your Entity level - 2. This also allows you to make use of up to one cleric spell you do not know but can grant to your followers a number of times per day equal to the number of times you have selected this ability.

Demigod's Land: You gain a Divine Realm, as a Divine Rank 1 god, except that your radius of control is only equal to 20 ft. You may select this ability again in order to increase the radius by 15 ft.



Forge[Aspect]
Prerequisite: Craft(any) 5 ranks, Access to Entity Power class feature
Benefit: You are a god of creation. You forge and craft items and infuse them with magic, eventually coming to forge weapons that are envied by the greatest of deities. This aspect of you changes your abilities to reflect this side of you. Firstly, when you gain the ability to make Servitors, all gain a +1 bonus to Craft checks, and you gain the ability to make Servitors of the Construct type, aside from whatever other type of servitor you choose. Secondly, each level, you gain a small pool of XP to use in the crafting of magic items equal to 10 x half your level squared.

Magic Craftsman: You gain one magic item creation feat as a bonus feat, so long as you qualify for it, treating your Entity level as your effective caster level. You still must know the spells/powers/etc. involved for an item's creation, though. You may select this ability again for another item creation feat.

Mystic Craftsman: Choose one school of magic/discipline of psionics/type of certain casting ability. You may treat yourself as knowing any spells/powers/etc. of that type for the purpose of item creation. You may select this ability again in order to apply this ability to another school of magic/discipline of psionics/type of certain casting ability.

Cyborg Servitor:Prerequisite: Servitors class feature. You may make non-construct Servitors with monster levels from creatures of the Construct type. You may expend 40 xp from your magic item creation pool to give a Servitor the 1st level in any Construct Monster class for free, so long as this does not cause the Servitor to have more HD than you.

Mix and Match: Prerequisite: Craft Construct feat. You may create Constructs that have levels in Construct monster classes other than its own(should it have one). This costs as usual for an increase in HD of the Construct, in addition to paying an XP cost equal to the number of Monster class levels added squared x 50.


Necrotic[Aspect]
Prerequisite: Knowledge(Arcana or Religion) 5 ranks, Access to Entity Power class feature
Benefit: You are what creeps in the night. You create and are a myriad of undead beings. You embody the force of undeath, and seek to spread it around the world, for better or worse. This unlocks some new Entity Powers and abilities, as your powers twist towards undeath. Firstly, when you gain the ability to make Servitors, you know how to make Undead servitors, in addition to one other type chosen. Secondly, you can animate undead at-will, so long as you don't use them for combat purposes. Undead animated this way may be animated as per the Animate Dead spell, except duration is changed to "Until destruction", there is no material component, and you cannot attack using these creatures, treating their AC as what it was when they were alive, but cannot make attack rolls. Also, the HP of these undead is reduced to 1 per HD the creature had in life. Additionally, if you cannot animate undead, you may animate 1 HD of Undead per class level by expending 1 Channel Point per HD of undead to be animated. You may only animate zombies or skeletons this way, and this ability vanishes once you gain the ability to animate undead through other means. You also gain knowledge of one Corpsecrafter trait. Thirdly, you gain access to this list of Entity Powers, in addition to any other lists you previously had:

Aura of Undeath: You positively reek of negative energy, which seeps into the beings around you, replacing the positive energy of the living and replenishing the energy of the undead around you. All creatures within a 20 ft radius of you take 1 + the number of times you have selected this ability negative energy damage. This aura can be turned on or off as a swift action. You may select this ability again in order to increase the radius by 5 ft.

Aura of Animation: Prerequisites: Aura of Animation 3. Whenever a creature dies in your Aura of Undeath, you may expend Channel Points equal to 1 per two HD of the creature(minimum 1) to animate it. If it dies due to taking damage from your Aura of Animation, you may animate it under your control for 1 round per two Entity class levels + 1 round per point of damage your Aura of Undeath deals. This animation does not count against the HD limit of your undead control pool. At the end of this animation, the creature crumbles to dust, or you may choose to animate it permanently like a normal creature that died in your Aura of Undeath.

Corpsecrafted Servants: Prerequisites: 6th level. Select one Corpsecrafter trait you know. The basic version of this trait is applied to all undead you animate automatically upon raising, including Servitors. You may select this trait again after three levels in order to select another trait you may apply to undead you animate. You may only apply one such Corpsecrafter trait to an undead per raising.

Chosen Children: Prerequisites: 4th level. You know how to make intelligent undead in your own design. You may choose to raise an undead creature that would normally be mindless with a necrotically created mind. Such creatures count as 1.5 x their HD for the purpose of counting towards your limit of Undead controlled. These creatures' type now changes to Half-Undead(See Dragon 313 for details). Also, they gain Intelligence, Charisma, and Wisdom scores. Roll 1d12 and add the number of times you have selected this ability to determine each score. Additionally, they gain one class level in any class that does not involve making use of spells/powers/etc. Lastly, one should note that all such undead created(unless the Necrotic Entity somehow decides not to) are automatically loyal to you, and have a starting attitude of Helpful. All undead created this way know one language you select. Chosen Children may not have HD that exceed yours - 2 including the class level granted by this ability. You may select this ability again in order to increase one of an existing Chosen Child's mental ability scores by 2.

Corpsecrafted Being: Prerequisites: Corpsecrafted Servants. You become more of a being of undeath than one of the flesh. You may now apply Corpsecrafted traits to yourself, treating yourself as an undead of HD equal to your Entity level - 2 for this purpose. You may select this feat again in order to reduce such costs by 15% and increase your effective HD by 1.

Enhanced Corpsecrafter: You know how to apply enhanced Corpsecrafter traits, and for less, too. Upon selecting this ability, choose up to half your casting(for better lack of a word) ability modifier(minimum 1) Corpsecrafter traits you know. You now know how to apply the Specialist benefit of it to undead. Additionally, whenever you apply the basic benefit of one of these Corpsecrafter traits to an undead, costs are reduced by 20%. You may select this ability again in order to select new traits to apply this benefit to. Every other time this ability is selected, the cost is reduced by an additional 10%.

Eternal Undeath: Prerequisites: Corpsecrafted Being, Aura of Animation, Aura of Undeath 5. You learn how to escape death, remaining on Earth forever. Upon destruction, your spirit flees to the nearest undead. If this is an intelligent undead, if unwilling to host your spirit, it must make a Will Save with a DC of 10 + your Entity level + twice your casting ability modifier. If it succeeds, it is immune to such attempts for 24 hours. If not, you replace it's spirit, controlling its body. For 2d10 + 10 days, this undead body wanders around, slowly making itself into a zombified(or skeletal) version of your living body. However, after 1d4 minutes of possession, you gain control of the undead's body, and may use it as you please. In this state, you use the undead creature's stats, except you use all of your normal mental ability scores. Additionally, you cannot make use of any class features you may have except Extraordinary ones, and Entity Power-granted abilities. After 3 days, you may use 1 Channel Point per two Entity levels. After 10 days, you can use 1 Channel Point per Entity level. This state persists until the transformation is complete.

Necrotic General: Prequisites: Undead control pool. You are a leader of huge masses of undead. You may increase your undead control pool by 1 HD per level. (ex. a Necrotic Entity first takes this, changing its undead control pool from 4 HD per level to 5 HD per level). This ability may be selected again in 4 levels in order to gain its benefits again.

Necrotic Knowledge: At the level this ability is selected, you may learn two new spells/powers/etc. in place of one so long as they are of the Necromancy school. You may select this ability again in order to gain its benefits again.


Pactmaker[Aspect]
Prerequisite: Knowledge(Arcana) 5 ranks, Access to Entity Power class feature
Benefit: You are unknowable. You are one of the mysterious Entities which make pacts with non-Entity beings, for what reason, no one knows. Maybe you have more power than you know what to do with, you need empowered beings in order to accomplish your goals, or perhaps, for better or for worse, you are simply bored and want to see what others do with a fraction of your power. This has multiple effects. Firstly, once you gain the ability to make a servitor, you can make pacts(see below) through them. Also, you can create a "Guide" a 1 HD servitor that does not count against the number of servitors you can make that helps a being you make a pact with learn to make use of the power you give it, and follows it everywhere that being goes. While Guides are somewhat loyal to you, their primary loyalty lies with the being you created it for. You make pacts through the useage of Pact Points. You start out with 10 Pact Points, and gain an additional Pact Point for every three Entity levels you have. Whenever a being you make a pact with dies, or should the pact require an instantaneous effect, you regain the Pact Points spent, although instantaneous effect pacts still must be carried out. Also, if a being breaks a pact, you can pervert or undo the benefit of the pact, and you regain the Pact Points upon the being's breaking of the pact. You cannot make pacts with your Servitors.

Strengthened Pactmaker: You gain 3 additional Pact Points. You may select this ability again in order to receive the same benefit again.

Skilled Pact: You may grant or enhance skills in a being. This may be done at the rate of 3 Pact Points per +2 bonus to a skill. You may select this ability again in 4 levels in order to be able to change the rate to 1 Pact Point per +1 bonus to a skill.

Enhancer Pact: You may enhance a being's ability scores. This may be done at a rate of 2 Pact Points per point added to an ability.

Capability Pact: Prerequisite: Skilled Pact. You may grant a creature a new capability, granting them one feat that they qualify for per 3 Pact Points you expend.

Power Pact: Prerequisite: Skilled Pact, Capability Pact. You learn how to grant a creature base class levels. These class levels can be in any class. Class levels for any base class but the Entity cost 4 Pact Points for the 1st class level, then each subsequent level costs more than the level before. This cannot make it so that a being has more HD than yours - 2. Entity base class levels have a 1st level cost of 6 Pact Points, but cannot progress from there. For an additional 2 points per existing level, you can convert previously taken class levels to those of the base class you are granting the creature levels in.

Miracle Pact: Prerequisites: Skilled Pact, Capability Pact, Power Pact. You learn how to grant a creature's wish. As a pact, you grant the creature anything that can be granted by a Wish spell. This costs 6 Pact Points per Wish, and not more than one can be granted to any one person.


Trickster[Aspect]
Prerequisite: Trickery Domain, Access to Entity Power class feature
Benefit: You're one of the trickster Entities of legend. You know how to fool anyone, and can usually get away with doing whatever you want, whether anyone finds out is up to you. Your trickster nature pervades your being, shaping your abilities as an Entity. Firstly, as soon as you can make them, all Servitors you make have +1 to Bluff, and have the Minor Shapechange ability of a Changeling. You gain an expanded Minor Shapechange ability as well, and also get a +2 to Bluff checks. With this Minor Shapechange, you may add on unnatural but purely cosmetic changes. Secondly, you may choose Entity Powers from this list, in addition to any other existing lists you may have to choose from:

Trickster's Gag: A Trickster knows how to make things go wrong in all the right ways. Should any enemy within 30 ft fail an attack roll or other check, it ends disastrously. Attacks become redirected to the nearest enemy. Healing and other buffs, unless the enemy succeeds on a Will save against a DC equal to 10 + Entity Level + Cha modifier, benefit your nearest ally within range, or should no ally be near it, instead inflict damage equal to 1/3 of the points it would have healed. This ability can be activated as a swift action for a number of rounds per day equal to 1/2 your Entity level + the number of times you have selected this ability. These rounds need not be spent consecutively.

Can't Get Anything Right: Prerequisites: Trickster's Gag. You learn how to make people fail. For a number of rolls per day equal to 1/2 your Entity level + the number of times you have selected this ability, you may impose a -2 penalty to the roll. For every two times you select this ability, the penalty increases by 1.

Reversal: Prerequisites: Trickster's Gag, Can't Get Anything Right. You've learned how to turn things around. For a number of rounds per day equal to 1/3 your Entity level + the number of times you have selected this ability,all actions within a radius reverse. These rounds need not be spent consecutively. Rolls that would succeed instead fail, and vice versa. Rolls of 1 count as natural 20s, and Natural 20s rolled count as rolled 1s.

Size Shift: You can increase or decrease your size by one. This is an at-will ability, but only lasts for a number of rounds equal to 1/3 your Entity class level + the number of times you have selected this feat at a time, after which you must wait 5 rounds. Every two times you select this ability, you may increase or decrease(choose one) your size by one more size, although you increase the cooldown time by one round per size beyond that granted initially(ex. a Medium human Entity learns this ability, and takes it two more times, choosing Huge size. Shifting to Small or Large has a cooldown of 5 rounds, while Huge has a cooldown of 6 rounds.) This ability does not apply to any form assumed through Minor Shapechange.

Essence Shifter: Prerequisites: 5th level, Size Shift. Select one creature type not your own. You may change your type to this one for a number of rounds per day equal to 1/3 your Entity level + the number of times you have selected this ability. These rounds need not be spent consecutively. Every two times you select this ability, you may choose another creature type.

Master of Many Shapes: Prerequisites: Essence Shifter, Size Shift. Using your Minor Change ability, you may now use it to assume the shape of creatures of the type(s) you can through your Minor Shapechange. You also may now use it to turn into creatures of your original type of one size smaller or larger than you. You may select this ability again in order to do the same with a creature type you can assume through Essence Shifter.

Amorphous Force:Prerequisites: Essence Shifter, Master of Many Shapes, Size Shift. You can turn into any creature you like using your Minor Shapechange ability, so long as it has up to 2 less HD than yours, and your Minor Shapechange now acts as Alter Self. Such action is at-will, but only lasts for a number of rounds equal to 1/3 your Entity level + the number of times you have select this feat, but has a cooldown equal to the HD of the creature assumed.

Trickster's Bag of Tricks: You can craft any magical item as though you possessed one magic item creation feat of your choice, so long as it only involves enchantment and/or illusion spells, and does not involve total spell levels exceeding your Entity level.(Ex. a magic item involves Charm Person and Minor Image. Charm Person is a level 1 spell and Minor Image a level 2 one, so 1 + 2 = 3 total spell levels, so only a 3rd level Trickster Entity may create it). You may select this ability again in order to select another magic item creation feat.


So, feel free to comment and PEACH these, as I'm not exactly sure whether they're balanced or not.

Quarian Rex
2011-05-04, 08:58 PM
First, I have to say that you have done some great work on the Entity. Fascinating class with tons of flavour.

I don't have much time right now but I felt the need to post a comment on the Pactmaker Aspect feat. I think that you have WAY undervalued it. You should completely remove the line saying, "Whenever you make a pact, you may specify a task or duty that is proportional to the power given, with tasks requiring a monetary value being worth up to 20 gp x Point". Saying that a +6 stat mod is only worth 240 gp hurts my soul. That is a mind-numbingly pitiful amount and crippling limitation that has no place in the ability.

Leave that up to the player and the DM as a roleplaying issue, to make an actual Pact.

Also, the Pact points/ability costs need some Severe tweaking. The low pool of non-renewable points, high cost of even minor benefits and complete lack of control/benefit to the Entity seem to be a major resource sink. Great idea but the execution needs much.

The Power Pact seems to be the most flavourful/powerful but the cost is quite prohibitive and any ability that allows a PC to grant free Levels is broken beyond belief. I love the idea of turning 1st level commoners into 1st level Warlocks/Sorcerers/whatever but there has to be a better way to do so. Also, I like the idea of granting a level in the Entity class. Tis like being able to breed Gods, but there should not be any means to acquire more than one class level of Entity through this ability. You should be able to awaken the seed Divinity (Nothingness/Power Cosmic/whatever) in another but not craft it/shape it/make it whole cloth.

Meanwhile, the Miracle Pact seems vastly overpowered (if used at 10th level, the earliest an aspect feat can be taken) to nigh useless (at 18th level when most Entities will have access to Wish/Miracle/Reality Revision which use the renewable resource of XP). Either way, problematic.

I'll give this some thought and see if I can come up with some constructive suggestions/alternatives later.

Pyromancer999
2011-05-04, 09:09 PM
First, I have to say that you have done some great work on the Entity. Fascinating class with tons of flavour.

Thanks.


I don't have much time right now but I felt the need to post a comment on the Pactmaker Aspect feat. I think that you have WAY undervalued it. You should completely remove the line saying, "Whenever you make a pact, you may specify a task or duty that is proportional to the power given, with tasks requiring a monetary value being worth up to 20 gp x Point". Saying that a +6 stat mod is only worth 240 gp hurts my soul. That is a mind-numbingly pitiful amount and crippling limitation that has no place in the ability.

How about 100 x Point, then?



Leave that up to the player and the DM as a roleplaying issue, to make an actual Pact.

Also, the Pact points/ability costs need some Severe tweaking. The low pool of non-renewable points, high cost of even minor benefits and complete lack of control/benefit to the Entity seem to be a major resource sink. Great idea but the execution needs much.

The idea of Pact Points being non-renewable is to show that the Entity can only set aside so much power for distribution. However, maybe a thing that converts Channel Points into Pact Points for temporary pacts?



The Power Pact seems to be the most flavourful/powerful but the cost is quite prohibitive and any ability that allows a PC to grant free Levels is broken beyond belief. I love the idea of turning 1st level commoners into 1st level Warlocks/Sorcerers/whatever but there has to be a better way to do so. Also, I like the idea of granting a level in the Entity class. Tis like being able to breed Gods, but there should not be any means to acquire more than one class level of Entity through this ability. You should be able to awaken the seed Divinity (Nothingness/Power Cosmic/whatever) in another but not craft it/shape it/make it whole cloth.

This should be fine. Anyways, for turning Commoner 1 into Warlock 1, just use 2 Pact Points.


Meanwhile, the Miracle Pact seems vastly overpowered (if used at 10th level, the earliest an aspect feat can be taken) to nigh useless (at 18th level when most Entities will have access to Wish/Miracle/Reality Revision which use the renewable resource of XP). Either way, problematic.

I'll give this some thought and see if I can come up with some constructive suggestions/alternatives later.
How about just Limited Wish, then, or imposing a level requirement?

Quarian Rex
2011-05-04, 11:30 PM
Anyways, for turning Commoner 1 into Warlock 1, just use 2 Pact Points.

Well, that's not too bad. The wording in the ability made it seem as if the 2 Pact Point cost for retroactive level changes was in Addition to the initial and subsequent costs.



How about 100 x Point, then?

Still no good. The problem is that you are trying to assign a linear cost to abilities that normally have a geometric cost progression. And you are vastly undervaluing them. For example, adding +2 to a targets Con. costs an Entity 4 Pact Points (with a monetary value of 80 gp or 400 gp in your revised proposal) and is equivalent to (even superior to since the Pact bonus is untyped) an Amulet of Health +2 that have a value of 4000 gp. Even if you were to increase the value to 1000 gp x Point you would be balanced at +2 but when you look at a +6 bonus, costing 12 Pact Points (worth 240 gp at 20x, 1200 gp at 100x, and 12,000 gp at 1000x values) it would be massively underpriced compared to the price tag of an Amulet of Health +6 (36,000 gp). Basically, by placing a gp value limit on what you can demand for the pact you are unrealistically crippling the main point of Pacts, bargaining power.

To have a system where you maintain realistic gp values for the pacts you would need an overly complex system (you would basically have to figure out the value of a magic item that can provide all of the benefits of the pact for every pact you make) and that would have the added disadvantage of horribly skewing the Wealth-by-Level of the character and potentially unbalancing the party.




The idea of Pact Points being non-renewable is to show that the Entity can only set aside so much power for distribution. However, maybe a thing that converts Channel Points into Pact Points for temporary pacts?

Oh, I definitely get that there needs to be a limit on power distribution but what I meant is that when you invest Pact Points in a given NPC and said NPC eats one too many Fireballs, you now have nothing to show for your aspect feat and have essentially wasted several power picks.

You need some way to recover Pact Points from dead Pact recipients and those whose Pacts have run their course.

Perhaps the Pact works like a Geas spell but with the exception that it can only take effect when voluntarily agreed to by the recipient (and so allows open ended demands) with the penalty for breaking the Pact being that the Entity can revoke the Pact and recover spent Pact Points at any time from that point forward. Also, Pact Points are automatically regained upon the death of the recipient.

A further penalty would be that any levels changed to a specific class (or gained in said class or a prestige class that progresses the Pact class' features) automatically reverts to Commoner when the Pact has been revoked. Also, any feats, PrCs, etc. that the Pact recipient no longer qualifies for due to lost prerequisites (Feats, Stats, etc.) are lost with no replacement (or changed to Commoner in the case of PrCs).

This could lead to interesting situations where characters have to stick to the spirit of their agreements for fear of losing their accumulated power or where Entities attempt to have former minions killed to recover Pact Points if the Pact recipient manages to weasel out of continued service due to a poorly worded Pact.

Just some thoughts.



How about just Limited Wish, then, or imposing a level requirement?

That still doesn't change the fact that those are permanently lost Pact Points for a one-shot spell. Adding a level requirement only makes it less useful because the longer you delay access the closer the Entity comes to being able to actually cast the spell itself.

Perhaps rephrase it so that if the Pact recipient violates the Pact the wish is reversed and/or perverted in the worst possible way.

Pyromancer999
2011-05-05, 02:09 PM
Still no good. The problem is that you are trying to assign a linear cost to abilities that normally have a geometric cost progression. And you are vastly undervaluing them. For example, adding +2 to a targets Con. costs an Entity 4 Pact Points (with a monetary value of 80 gp or 400 gp in your revised proposal) and is equivalent to (even superior to since the Pact bonus is untyped) an Amulet of Health +2 that have a value of 4000 gp. Even if you were to increase the value to 1000 gp x Point you would be balanced at +2 but when you look at a +6 bonus, costing 12 Pact Points (worth 240 gp at 20x, 1200 gp at 100x, and 12,000 gp at 1000x values) it would be massively underpriced compared to the price tag of an Amulet of Health +6 (36,000 gp). Basically, by placing a gp value limit on what you can demand for the pact you are unrealistically crippling the main point of Pacts, bargaining power.

To have a system where you maintain realistic gp values for the pacts you would need an overly complex system (you would basically have to figure out the value of a magic item that can provide all of the benefits of the pact for every pact you make) and that would have the added disadvantage of horribly skewing the Wealth-by-Level of the character and potentially unbalancing the party.



That's true. I guess I can remove the gp thing. I was just trying to make sure that Entities with high Bluff wouldn't be able to go around and be like,"That toe wart's a sign of a deadly disease that almost no one can cure. I'll cure it for you if you give me your 500,000 gp savings." Yeah.



Oh, I definitely get that there needs to be a limit on power distribution but what I meant is that when you invest Pact Points in a given NPC and said NPC eats one too many Fireballs, you now have nothing to show for your aspect feat and have essentially wasted several power picks.


You need some way to recover Pact Points from dead Pact recipients and those whose Pacts have run their course.

I assumed that was implied. That's the case.


Perhaps the Pact works like a Geas spell but with the exception that it can only take effect when voluntarily agreed to by the recipient (and so allows open ended demands) with the penalty for breaking the Pact being that the Entity can revoke the Pact and recover spent Pact Points at any time from that point forward. Also, Pact Points are automatically regained upon the death of the recipient.

I can see that.


A further penalty would be that any levels changed to a specific class (or gained in said class or a prestige class that progresses the Pact class' features) automatically reverts to Commoner when the Pact has been revoked. Also, any feats, PrCs, etc. that the Pact recipient no longer qualifies for due to lost prerequisites (Feats, Stats, etc.) are lost with no replacement (or changed to Commoner in the case of PrCs).

This could lead to interesting situations where characters have to stick to the spirit of their agreements for fear of losing their accumulated power or where Entities attempt to have former minions killed to recover Pact Points if the Pact recipient manages to weasel out of continued service due to a poorly worded Pact.

Well, not Commoner, but whatever class levels they were before. After all, say a fighter wants to be a cleric, then Pact changes him. Afterwards, the levels should revert to Fighter, not Commoner. Still, Interesting.





That still doesn't change the fact that those are permanently lost Pact Points for a one-shot spell. Adding a level requirement only makes it less useful because the longer you delay access the closer the Entity comes to being able to actually cast the spell itself.

Perhaps rephrase it so that if the Pact recipient violates the Pact the wish is reversed and/or perverted in the worst possible way.

Well, I wouldn't say that. If it were to be for something instantaneous, then the Pact Points would be regained and the person would have to carry out his end of the deal. If the being broke the agreement, then yeah, the wish would be reversed or perverted. In the playtesting I've got going on, a Pactmaker Entity ressurected a guy's lost love(yeah, a bit of a cliche) in exchange for the man's fortune(quite large). Just to see what the guy would do, I made it so that the NPC whose love was revived broke the pact, instead paying off a guy to make an illusion of all his fortune, making a large pile of leaves seem to be gold. As the guy did his standard dispel checks, he discovered the ruse.

This is where it gets good.

I asked him,"Would you like to reverse the effect, and make his love die again?". He stared at me, and in his special roleplaying tone for dark characters, he said,"No one cheats Morgath(the name of the Pactmaker Entity)." He then proceeded to turn the love into a Ghoul who hunted him down in the middle of the night. Not too cheerful, but it has a lot of flavor, which is what I was going for. So, good idea.

CaptainPlatypus
2011-05-05, 03:13 PM
Or is it as whoever you're copying it from?

A bit late, but I read this as meaning "the class you (the entity) are copying the ability from", not "the poster you (the author of the entity) are copying the class from". I wouldn't take offense. :smallsmile:

Anyway, my main suggestion would be to fluff it out a bit more - use the "expanded" bits of fluffy details on the class that ToB, for example, uses.

Pyromancer999
2011-05-05, 03:49 PM
Anyway, my main suggestion would be to fluff it out a bit more - use the "expanded" bits of fluffy details on the class that ToB, for example, uses.

Eh? What's the expanded thing you're talking about?

Pyromancer999
2011-05-05, 05:47 PM
I have now posted the Forge and Trickster Aspect feats. Feel free to take a look!.....Please.

Quarian Rex
2011-05-05, 06:00 PM
That's true. I guess I can remove the gp thing. I was just trying to make sure that Entities with high Bluff wouldn't be able to go around and be like,"That toe wart's a sign of a deadly disease that almost no one can cure. I'll cure it for you if you give me your 500,000 gp savings." Yeah.

I hear ya. Just remember that Bluff is not mind-control. You might convince someone that a wart may be life threatening but you cannot convince a rich man to part with his fortune for a Cure Disease spell.



Well, not Commoner, but whatever class levels they were before. After all, say a fighter wants to be a cleric, then Pact changes him. Afterwards, the levels should revert to Fighter, not Commoner. Still, Interesting.

I was thinking more of taking a 1st level Commoner and turning him into a 1st level Sorcerer (at a cost of 2 Pact Points). You adventure with him as a henchman till he is 5th level, he betrays you, and you can now regain your 2 Pact Points and make him a 5th level Commoner.

Alternately, as an example, a 4th level Fighter wants to become a Cleric. You fully convert him into a 4th level Cleric (costing you 8 Pact Points) and he continues adventuring for 3 more levels taking 2 more levels in Cleric and one in Crusader. He is now Cleric 6/Crusader 1. He then betrays the Pact and you have the option to regain your 8 spent Pact Points making him Fighter 4/Commoner 2/Crusader 1. In either case the character would have to go through retraining to make use of the 'useless' Commoner levels.

The thought is to have All power derived from the Pact to be at stake.

Twould be interesting.



Well, I wouldn't say that. If it were to be for something instantaneous, then the Pact Points would be regained and the person would have to carry out his end of the deal. If the being broke the agreement, then yeah, the wish would be reversed or perverted.

See, that would be a problem. If you instantly regain Pact Points for instantaneous Wishes then you essentially have unlimited Wishes. A bit of a gamebreaker. Much better I think to have the cost of the wish be tied to the Pact just like any other bonus you are providing, with the caveat that it can be undone just as fast/thoroughly as the other Pact benefits in the case of a violation.



In the playtesting I've got going on, a Pactmaker Entity ressurected a guy's lost love(yeah, a bit of a cliche) in exchange for the man's fortune(quite large). Just to see what the guy would do, I made it so that the NPC whose love was revived broke the pact, instead paying off a guy to make an illusion of all his fortune, making a large pile of leaves seem to be gold. As the guy did his standard dispel checks, he discovered the ruse.

This is where it gets good.

I asked him,"Would you like to reverse the effect, and make his love die again?". He stared at me, and in his special roleplaying tone for dark characters, he said,"No one cheats Morgath(the name of the Pactmaker Entity)." He then proceeded to turn the love into a Ghoul who hunted him down in the middle of the night. Not too cheerful, but it has a lot of flavor, which is what I was going for. So, good idea.

This is exactly the sort of thing I was thinking of. The only question is how to codify it in the rules. In the above example you could say that the Pact was made with 6 Pact Points (as per Miracle Pact) to Resurrect the lost love in exchange for the fortune. Since the recipient violated the Pact, the Entity can now regain his 6 Pact points, thereby killing the lost love (in a creatively appropriate manner apparently).

If the recipient had kept his part of the Pact (by providing the actual fortune) the Entity would have been permanently out of the 6 Pact Points invested since there would no longer be a way for the recipient to violate the Pact. Unless the Entity decided to try to kill him to recover the Pact Points.

This would be a good way to discourage the actual selling of power for gp. Once the transaction is done there is no honourable recovery of Pact Points. Much more incentive to have open-ended, task-oriented deals where the recipient has a chance to screw up.

Pyromancer999
2011-05-05, 06:16 PM
I hear ya. Just remember that Bluff is not mind-control. You might convince someone that a wart may be life threatening but you cannot convince a rich man to part with his fortune for a Cure Disease spell.

Actually, once you convince a rich man that it's life-threatening, you could.


I was thinking more of taking a 1st level Commoner and turning him into a 1st level Sorcerer (at a cost of 2 Pact Points). You adventure with him as a henchman till he is 5th level, he betrays you, and you can now regain your 2 Pact Points and make him a 5th level Commoner.


Alternately, as an example, a 4th level Fighter wants to become a Cleric. You fully convert him into a 4th level Cleric (costing you 8 Pact Points) and he continues adventuring for 3 more levels taking 2 more levels in Cleric and one in Crusader. He is now Cleric 6/Crusader 1. He then betrays the Pact and you have the option to regain your 8 spent Pact Points making him Fighter 4/Commoner 2/Crusader 1. In either case the character would have to go through retraining to make use of the 'useless' Commoner levels.

The thought is to have All power derived from the Pact to be at stake.

I suppose gained levels could be converted into commoner.


See, that would be a problem. If you instantly regain Pact Points for instantaneous Wishes then you essentially have unlimited Wishes. A bit of a gamebreaker. Much better I think to have the cost of the wish be tied to the Pact just like any other bonus you are providing, with the caveat that it can be undone just as fast/thoroughly as the other Pact benefits in the case of a violation.

True. I'll remove that part. Also, what do you think about the temporary pact-thing I was mentioning earlier? I'm thinking conversion of 2-4 Channel Points per 1 Pact Point of the temporary pact, and temporary pacts last a day. This would do well for temporary minions, bodyguards, and also making sure that a mainly harmless NPC(like a commoner guiding the party through a labryinth) doesn't get offed and can be useful. Basically, a servitude contract.

Quarian Rex
2011-05-05, 07:56 PM
Actually, once you convince a rich man that it's life-threatening, you could.

Not before he visited his local Cleric...

And remember, the more outlandish the Bluff, the greater the Sense Motive modifier is to detect it (up to +20).




I suppose gained levels could be converted into commoner.

I kinda think that it is a suitable penalty for an Oathbreaker. Nothing says Stripped-of-All-Power like levels in Commoner.



Also, what do you think about the temporary pact-thing I was mentioning earlier? I'm thinking conversion of 2-4 Channel Points per 1 Pact Point of the temporary pact, and temporary pacts last a day. This would do well for temporary minions, bodyguards, and also making sure that a mainly harmless NPC(like a commoner guiding the party through a labryinth) doesn't get offed and can be useful. Basically, a servitude contract.

I find it to be intriguing. Actually, that could be the solution to some of the reservations I've been having about the Power Pact. The one thing that I've been worried about is the option to add permanent HD to a character. That opens up waaay too many problems. Pun-Pun level problems.

If you only allow additional class levels to be added with a temporary Pact such insanity can be averted. I think. A conversion of 2 Channel Points per 1 Pact Point of the temporary pact should be more than sufficient considering the cost of the Pacts themselves. Also, I think that if you add spellcasting class levels that you should only gain spell slots, not spells known of the class. These spell slots could be used to cast same or lower level spells know (in the case of spontaneous casters) though spell slots of a higher level that the recipient could normally cast can only be used to cast lower lever spells (as when a Sorcerer uses a 4th level spell slot to cast a Fireball when he has run out of 3rd level spells) since no spells known of the new spell level would be granted by the temp class levels.

Prepared spellcasters could use the new spellslots to spontaneously cast spells as a Sorcerer using currently memorized spells as spells known (or spells known with the Spell Mastery Feat).

For example, a 3rd level Wizard [having memorized Magic Missile x2, Mage Armor, and Glitterdust, and having the feats Extend spell and Spell Mastery (Shield and Scorching Ray)], who has previously cast Mage Armor and one Magic Missile, receives a temporary Pact granting him two more Wizard levels. He now acts as a 5th level wizard in all ways (including selecting a Wizard bonus feat) but he gains three empty spell slots (one 1st level, one 2nd level, and one 3rd level as per a 5th level Wizard) which can in all ways be used as Sorcerer spell slots, using Magic Missile, Shield, Glitterdust, and Scorching Ray as spells known (as these are the remaining memorized/Mastered spells). He can use his 3rd level spell slot to cast Scorching Ray as per normal or he can use a Full-Round action to cast an Extended Glitterdust as per a Sorcerer casting metamagic, etc.

Just some precautions to make sure that early/extra spell access cannot be abused.

Thoughts?

Pyromancer999
2011-05-05, 08:31 PM
Not before he visited his local Cleric...

And remember, the more outlandish the Bluff, the greater the Sense Motive modifier is to detect it (up to +20).

Homebrew can do crazy things. Plus there's a PrC in order to increase skill bonuses, forget which one it is though.


I find it to be intriguing. Actually, that could be the solution to some of the reservations I've been having about the Power Pact. The one thing that I've been worried about is the option to add permanent HD to a character. That opens up waaay too many problems. Pun-Pun level problems.

If you only allow additional class levels to be added with a temporary Pact such insanity can be averted. I think. A conversion of 2 Channel Points per 1 Pact Point of the temporary pact should be more than sufficient considering the cost of the Pacts themselves. Also, I think that if you add spellcasting class levels that you should only gain spell slots, not spells known of the class. These spell slots could be used to cast same or lower level spells know (in the case of spontaneous casters) though spell slots of a higher level that the recipient could normally cast can only be used to cast lower lever spells (as when a Sorcerer uses a 4th level spell slot to cast a Fireball when he has run out of 3rd level spells) since no spells known of the new spell level would be granted by the temp class levels.

The deal with Power Pact is that you can invest people with power in exchange for stuff. Like, you can have a spy in every key town, granting them power like base class levels in exchange for doing what you want. Still, I can see the need to limit the bestowing of permanent levels. Maybe have a limit of 3-5 permanent levels to start?


Prepared spellcasters could use the new spellslots to spontaneously cast spells as a Sorcerer using currently memorized spells as spells known (or spells known with the Spell Mastery Feat).

For example, a 3rd level Wizard [having memorized Magic Missile x2, Mage Armor, and Glitterdust, and having the feats Extend spell and Spell Mastery (Shield and Scorching Ray)], who has previously cast Mage Armor and one Magic Missile, receives a temporary Pact granting him two more Wizard levels. He now acts as a 5th level wizard in all ways (including selecting a Wizard bonus feat) but he gains three empty spell slots (one 1st level, one 2nd level, and one 3rd level as per a 5th level Wizard) which can in all ways be used as Sorcerer spell slots, using Magic Missile, Shield, Glitterdust, and Scorching Ray as spells known (as these are the remaining memorized/Mastered spells). He can use his 3rd level spell slot to cast Scorching Ray as per normal or he can use a Full-Round action to cast an Extended Glitterdust as per a Sorcerer casting metamagic, etc.

Just some precautions to make sure that early/extra spell access cannot be abused.

Thoughts?

I'd get behind this for a temporary Pact maybe, but overall I'd say it'd be a horrible idea for a permanent one. Part of why Wizards and the like make such pacts is in exchange for more power, not just spell slots, but spells.

Quarian Rex
2011-05-05, 09:18 PM
The deal with Power Pact is that you can invest people with power in exchange for stuff. Like, you can have a spy in every key town, granting them power like base class levels in exchange for doing what you want. Still, I can see the need to limit the bestowing of permanent levels. Maybe have a limit of 3-5 permanent levels to start?

I implore you to scrap the idea of adding permanent levels altogether. Down that path lies naught but Madness. I am utterly serious here. It sounds harmless enough when you look at NPCs as the targets but when PCs are involved the game gets broken wide open.

If you want a better trained minion, make a commoner a 1st level adventuring class and then cast a low level summoning spell. Tell summon to kill the new adventurer. Have some curative magics nearby and you will have a capable minion with 3-5 honestly earned extra levels in a few days game time. Call it boot camp. Play a little montage music while you're doing it. You have your minions but you do not open the door for PC based lunacy at higher levels.



I'd get behind this for a temporary Pact maybe, but overall I'd say it'd be a horrible idea for a permanent one. Part of why Wizards and the like make such pacts is in exchange for more power, not just spell slots, but spells.

Sorry if I wasn't clear in the first post. This is an idea just for temporary Pacts. This is also a method to avoid infinite spell use (ie. empowering a commoner to a 10th level Cleric/Sorcerer/what-have-you ordering/having the Pact require him to cast all of his spells as you wish, kill him/have Pact expire due to Pact agreement, regain Pact Points, empower another commoner, rinse, repeat.

This would also show that Entities can provide excessive amounts of raw power but not necessarily the knowledge of how to best use such power.

Pyromancer999
2011-05-06, 02:14 PM
I implore you to scrap the idea of adding permanent levels altogether. Down that path lies naught but Madness. I am utterly serious here. It sounds harmless enough when you look at NPCs as the targets but when PCs are involved the game gets broken wide open.

If you want a better trained minion, make a commoner a 1st level adventuring class and then cast a low level summoning spell. Tell summon to kill the new adventurer. Have some curative magics nearby and you will have a capable minion with 3-5 honestly earned extra levels in a few days game time. Call it boot camp. Play a little montage music while you're doing it. You have your minions but you do not open the door for PC based lunacy at higher levels.

I know what you're suggesting may make a bit more sense, NPC-wise, but I like the idea of investment of some kind of base class levels that results in a permanent power-up. Still, I'm seeing that you can't just go and pile on bunches of permanent class levels. How about a limit equal to 1/4-1/5 of your Entity level?




Sorry if I wasn't clear in the first post. This is an idea just for temporary Pacts. This is also a method to avoid infinite spell use (ie. empowering a commoner to a 10th level Cleric/Sorcerer/what-have-you ordering/having the Pact require him to cast all of his spells as you wish, kill him/have Pact expire due to Pact agreement, regain Pact Points, empower another commoner, rinse, repeat.

This would also show that Entities can provide excessive amounts of raw power but not necessarily the knowledge of how to best use such power.

Hmmmmm....... Actually, I was thinking about using this to handle it: Should you purposefully arrange for the death of a being you make a pact with, you lose the Pact Points involved in the pact.

Quarian Rex
2011-05-06, 10:45 PM
I know what you're suggesting may make a bit more sense, NPC-wise, but I like the idea of investment of some kind of base class levels that results in a permanent power-up. Still, I'm seeing that you can't just go and pile on bunches of permanent class levels. How about a limit equal to 1/4-1/5 of your Entity level?

If you are completely stuck on the permanent power-up idea then lets try to minimize the potential horror. How about a max increase of one level per five full Entity levels, to a maximum of the Entities HD-2, with the additional condition that while HD/Level increases, experience points do not (and the recipient cannot spend xp, on spells or magic item creation, untill they have enough xp to qualify for their current character level).

This would allow you to grant limited power to give weak individuals a boost but does not put PCs ahead in the long-term. This would allow full spell progression because the boost is relatively minor for the levels at which you are capable of granting them.

Thoughts?



Hmmmmm....... Actually, I was thinking about using this to handle it: Should you purposefully arrange for the death of a being you make a pact with, you lose the Pact Points involved in the pact.

Hmmm. Truth be told, I don't like it. Perhaps a caveat so that and Entity cannot directly kill a minion to regain Pact Points but I think indirect should be still allowed. There are just too many roleplaying opportunities that it opens up.

If you are going to allow the recipient to try to cheat his end of the Pact (casting illusion spells on leaves to make it seem like money) then you should allow an entity to conspire against a former (or current) minion to regain spent Power. Tis only fair. And interesting.

Pyromancer999
2011-05-07, 09:33 AM
If you are completely stuck on the permanent power-up idea then lets try to minimize the potential horror. How about a max increase of one level per five full Entity levels, to a maximum of the Entities HD-2, with the additional condition that while HD/Level increases, experience points do not (and the recipient cannot spend xp, on spells or magic item creation, untill they have enough xp to qualify for their current character level).

This would allow you to grant limited power to give weak individuals a boost but does not put PCs ahead in the long-term. This would allow full spell progression because the boost is relatively minor for the levels at which you are capable of granting them.

Thoughts?

I can get behind that. Just have to think of how to phrase it.



Hmmm. Truth be told, I don't like it. Perhaps a caveat so that and Entity cannot directly kill a minion to regain Pact Points but I think indirect should be still allowed. There are just too many roleplaying opportunities that it opens up.

If you are going to allow the recipient to try to cheat his end of the Pact (casting illusion spells on leaves to make it seem like money) then you should allow an entity to conspire against a former (or current) minion to regain spent Power. Tis only fair. And interesting.

I think indirect killing works. Sure.

Also, having a bit of a hard time coming up with the Celestial/Devilish/Demonic Aspects(especially the last two, since the crunch is pretty similar). May not be able to do those, but may come out with a couple feats for the Entity that give a similar feel. Also, not sure if I can do the rest of the Aspects previously mentioned, but here are some new ideas: Far Realm(slightly hard as all I can think of are tentacles, and may just do the same to that as the Celestial feats), and Elemental.

So, thoughts on this?

Pyromancer999
2011-05-08, 12:46 PM
Yeah, so, at this point I think I'm going to replace the alignment Outsider ones(Far Realm, Devilish, Demonic, Celestial) with a Smite ability and a feat that lets you apply one template to a Servitor for what will probably be around 5 binding points/level, and also, just came up with an idea for a new one: Draconic.

Thoughts on this?

Gideon Falcon
2011-05-09, 07:35 PM
Very well made class. I do think you need to figure out the effects of the construct and animal types for eidolons, though. I'm certainly looking forward to the other aspect feats.

Pyromancer999
2011-05-10, 02:56 PM
Alright, added the Necrotic(Undead) Aspect feat, feel free to PEACH/comment on it. Would appreciate some feedback on my current ideas for other ones.

Pyromancer999
2011-05-12, 03:45 PM
Again, would appreciate more comments and ideas for Aspect feats as I feel like I'm done with those, at least for now. May make a Draconic Aspect feat. Also, here are some ideas for more general feats for the Entity:

-Get some more Channel Points
-Templated Servitors
-Add subtypes to Servitors
-Smite ability(slightly enhanced)
-Something having to do with manipulating an aura of power, although I may just have finished that with the Aspect feats
-Get an additional Entity Power(as per the class feature)

Thoughts on this?

Gideon Falcon
2011-05-20, 11:01 PM
I think you need to expound upon the types for your servitors; eidolons only have the outsider, ooze, elemental, magical beast, fey, and dragon types, but not constructs or any of those.

Also, I think that you might want to have an elemental themed Aspect feat.

Also, here might be an alternative for the given Tomorrow's Might options:

Alter Size (Su): You may use the powers Expansion and Compression as Supernatural abilities (ML = HD) a number of times per day equal to your casting stat modifier.

Automatic Metamagic (Ex): You select a single metamagic feat with a static cost. You may apply this for free to spells and powers from your channeled might a number of times each day equal to your casting ability score (not the modifier) divided by the cost of the feat.

Call Creatures (Ex): You decrease the cost of all spells and powers with the summoning descriptor used through your channeled might by one.

Command Plants (Su): You may command plant servitors, and may use Command Plants at a caster level equal to your HD as a supernatural ability a number of times each day equal to your casting stat modifier. You may not have more creatures under this control than the same modifier.

Command Creatures (Su): You may use Dominate Person a number of times each day equal to your casting stat modifier, with caster level equal to your HD as a supernatural ability. You may only control a number of creatures equal to the same ability modifier at once through this ability.

Divine Air Mastery: No change

Divine Armor Mastery: No change

Divine Earth Mastery: No SLA's, otherwise no change.

Divine Fire Mastery: Changes as Divine Earth Mastery.

And so on, reducing the power of the abilities to non-epic levels.

Pyromancer999
2011-05-21, 07:29 AM
I think you need to expound upon the types for your servitors; eidolons only have the outsider, ooze, elemental, magical beast, fey, and dragon types, but not constructs or any of those.

Well, Forge Aspect gives you Construct type Servitors. Basically, here's a basic rundown of skills you can choose for whatever types. I'd reccomend choosing about 5-10 for each:

Humanoid: Anything you want

Giant + Monstrous Humanoid: Str-based, Con-Based, and maybe some Wis-Based skills

Undead: Really subjective. Not sure what to put here

Aberration: Wis-Based, and Cha-Based skills, with a couple involving physical ability scores.

Plant: Just physically based skills. Maybe a mental ability score-based one or two.

Think of it as a build-your-own Skill list for each type.


Also, I think that you might want to have an elemental themed Aspect feat.

I agree, but it's more difficult than it sounds. What I'm thinking is that I may be forced to make a different one for each element.


Also, here might be an alternative for the given Tomorrow's Might options:

Alter Size (Su): You may use the powers Expansion and Compression as Supernatural abilities (ML = HD) a number of times per day equal to your casting stat modifier.

Automatic Metamagic (Ex): You select a single metamagic feat with a static cost. You may apply this for free to spells and powers from your channeled might a number of times each day equal to your casting ability score (not the modifier) divided by the cost of the feat.

Call Creatures (Ex): You decrease the cost of all spells and powers with the summoning descriptor used through your channeled might by one.

Command Plants (Su): You may command plant servitors, and may use Command Plants at a caster level equal to your HD as a supernatural ability a number of times each day equal to your casting stat modifier. You may not have more creatures under this control than the same modifier.

Command Creatures (Su): You may use Dominate Person a number of times each day equal to your casting stat modifier, with caster level equal to your HD as a supernatural ability. You may only control a number of creatures equal to the same ability modifier at once through this ability.

Divine Air Mastery: No change

Divine Armor Mastery: No change

Divine Earth Mastery: No SLA's, otherwise no change.

Divine Fire Mastery: Changes as Divine Earth Mastery.

And so on, reducing the power of the abilities to non-epic levels.

Interesting, although I notice Water Mastery isn't in there, and even as-is, some might still be too powerful.

Okuno
2011-05-21, 10:50 PM
I really like the idea behind this class: it's brilliance is in its obviousness, perhaps. Finally, a class I can use to build random FF-y bosses that don't seem to fit in. And what's more, something available to the fledgling Ansem.

I'm not so sure about the implementation. As a programmer, I love the complex system of feature inheritance for how it trims down the size of the source. As someone who wants to use the rules, I don't like flipping pages around to find out what a particular class feature does. Wherever possible, I'd say merge in pre-existing rules. Obviously, that doesn't work everywhere, and probably the best thing for usability is just add examples; they're well-used in the books, and rules like this could definitely benefit.

I'll probably get down to nuts and bolts later as I come up with a competing homebrew more aligned with my conceptions.


But, I want to say something concrete, so, f worrying about T3, go for T2. Sure, optimizers can break it easy, and even laymen can ruin a world sometimes, but there are two handy answers that can remove that high-tier fear. A) Optimizers can break anything. I saw a broken truenamer once. Don't worry about them, you can't beat them. B) Most people enjoy a reasonable game. Maybe that's just a lucky experience on my part, but consider the DM who says "use core plus this Entity homebrew I've linked". If he's letting wizards in, a T2 class isn't going to make the DM's life any harder. If a DMs really worried about banning sorcerers, let him ban the Entity too. Entity is a high-magic concept anyway.

Also, I see the main difference between T's 1&2 is T1 can have an arbitrarily long 'spellbook', but T2s are finite. A psion is a full caster that can wear heavy armor, which makes it stronger and more versatile than the sorcerer, but psion is still T2 because it only learns so many powers. As long as you keep the entity's class abilities relatively fixed over character time (as opposed to fixed player-to-player), it'll be T2. The question is whether it's high or low. Obviously, you're shooting low, way low; I'ma shoot high, because that just fits with the existing characters I'm thinking of.

Definitely good work. It really does a lot with very little, opening a whole new conceptual niche, which is where the real fun of homebrew is ^.^

Pyromancer999
2011-05-27, 12:40 PM
I really like the idea behind this class: it's brilliance is in its obviousness, perhaps. Finally, a class I can use to build random FF-y bosses that don't seem to fit in. And what's more, something available to the fledgling Ansem.

I'm not so sure about the implementation. As a programmer, I love the complex system of feature inheritance for how it trims down the size of the source. As someone who wants to use the rules, I don't like flipping pages around to find out what a particular class feature does. Wherever possible, I'd say merge in pre-existing rules. Obviously, that doesn't work everywhere, and probably the best thing for usability is just add examples; they're well-used in the books, and rules like this could definitely benefit.

I'll probably get down to nuts and bolts later as I come up with a competing homebrew more aligned with my conceptions.


But, I want to say something concrete, so, f worrying about T3, go for T2. Sure, optimizers can break it easy, and even laymen can ruin a world sometimes, but there are two handy answers that can remove that high-tier fear. A) Optimizers can break anything. I saw a broken truenamer once. Don't worry about them, you can't beat them. B) Most people enjoy a reasonable game. Maybe that's just a lucky experience on my part, but consider the DM who says "use core plus this Entity homebrew I've linked". If he's letting wizards in, a T2 class isn't going to make the DM's life any harder. If a DMs really worried about banning sorcerers, let him ban the Entity too. Entity is a high-magic concept anyway.

Also, I see the main difference between T's 1&2 is T1 can have an arbitrarily long 'spellbook', but T2s are finite. A psion is a full caster that can wear heavy armor, which makes it stronger and more versatile than the sorcerer, but psion is still T2 because it only learns so many powers. As long as you keep the entity's class abilities relatively fixed over character time (as opposed to fixed player-to-player), it'll be T2. The question is whether it's high or low. Obviously, you're shooting low, way low; I'ma shoot high, because that just fits with the existing characters I'm thinking of.

Definitely good work. It really does a lot with very little, opening a whole new conceptual niche, which is where the real fun of homebrew is ^.^

Thanks. Still, I'd say this is more tier 2 than tier 3, especially with the Tier-change options. Most would say that this should be tier 1, but what people have to remember is that even gods and similar Entities, no matter how powerful, tend to not really extend out of a certain range of powers, which is why tiers 2 and 3 were both fine for this class. Still, most people like Tier 1, so I included an option for that.

Volthawk
2011-05-27, 01:09 PM
If you use 'So Fly' to grab flight, what manoeuvrability do you have?