Serious Problems; Need NPCs to Help

[Chewz]

Okay, so my PCs have played in several short-lived campaigns which always end because a player either rapes a party member, kills a party member, rapes then kills a party member then is killed themselves, or just flat-out kills the party in their sleep. They won't conform to their alignments, and I have tried to be cool about it but the reality is that people are continually having less fun. So this time I'm re-starting the same campaign and placing them all as at least evil aligned in a cult that basically does general evil things.

I need some NPCs to trail them and monitor their actions, ideally anything with Detect Thoughts, Discern Lies, Zone of Truth, Detect Hostile Intent, Invisibility, True Seeing, Discern Location, Greater Invisibility, and the like. Any way to get some of these abilities at-will would be great. The goal is to kill the troublemaker PC before they can even act, and at the same time they won't have any way to complain about DM fiats or lightning striking them dead; they will only have the RAW to blame. I try to be rules based because it is not biased so much, and also because I don't want to seem partial to anyone.

TL;DR need a by-the-rules way to stop characters from doing evil things or a way to in enforce their chosen alignment.

[Zaq]

You can't stop the characters from doing evil things, because the characters aren't the problem. The players are.

Making big mean NPCs isn't going to stop someone who has the mindset you described. Is it just one person causing the problem, or the whole group? (Or perhaps one person who sets a bad example and makes the rest of the group cause problems?) You need to find the root of why they want to do this and talk to them about it. Explain that they're making the game be not fun for you, and that if they don't stop it, either kick them out or just stop playing.

Harsh, perhaps, but I can tell you right now that if I had a player like that in my group, I'd definitely talk to them and give them one chance to shape up or ship out. Making the game just blatantly not fun to the point of the campaign repeatedly crumbling? No sir, not if I have any say in it.

tl;dr: The players are the problem, not the characters, and nothing short of talking to them out-of-game and explaining that they're ruining it for the rest of you will make things any better.

[Amnestic]

Okay, so my PCs have played in several short-lived campaigns which always end because a player either rapes a party member, kills a party member, rapes then kills a party member then is killed themselves, or just flat-out kills the party in their sleep.

I might be speaking out of turn, but if these are common occurences then you have a way bigger problem with your players, which will not be solved by having NPCs trail them. I think you should probably step away from the table and seriously talk to your players about...just...everything.

[Blinkbear]

I am not sure if this post answers your question. Maybe it is more of a comment than an answer.

If you ask me, you are at a point where you try to control your players instead of their characters by applying rules instead of god mode. I do not know your players. But if I got it right from your post, they are somehow enjoying to make their characters do such evil things. On the other handy, they somehow seem to get less fun of it by the time. In my opinion, what you need are no rule-based intervention techniques but a straight word with your players. In the end, they are the problem, not the characters. I think from a DM's view it's rather simple: "Dear players. Either you build and then play characters that do not act like that or we all end up having no fun at all. I don't want to look up rules that enable me to stop your characters. Either you build characters that work in some kind of campaign/group, or be happy with what you have."

Oh, and never forget. You are the DM. It is a voluntarily done and unpaid job you do. If there is no fun for you anymore, tell them. Either they change or you stop DM'ing.

Just my thoughts. Don't know if they will help you.

[Chewz]

I agree with that completely, I'm just giving them one last chance. I've tried what you've said, and it doesn't seem to work on this particular group. The composition and cohesion simply put is not good.

I completely understand what you guys are saying; however, I think some of them just enjoy being over-the-top evil. Maybe this change will fix that. If not, then I will just find something else to do with my time, because Lord knows I don't have a ton of it.

[pyroman]

Yea NPC's probably aren't the answer here. My group used to have someone who sounds like the "bad guy" you described. He was obnoxious and rude both when playing and not playing. We ended up just throwing him out. If you've tried talking to him already, it may be the time to put their "membership" to a group vote. Unless this is more than one player.

[Aemoh87]

If they wanna be over the top evil DO NOT PUNISH THEM. Give them natural consequences. Who doesn't love streams of paladins rushing to slaughter them with clerics backing them up. Because that is what is likely to happen. Or adventurers would be hired to kill them.

Now you have a fun game where they need each other to survive. They might still kill each other but naturally it could result in their own death. This could wind up as a dungeonmaker campaign, where they are the BBEG and need to survive the forces of goods attempts to eradicate them.

[Zaq]

If they wanna be over the top evil DO NOT PUNISH THEM. Give them natural consequences. Who doesn't love streams of paladins rushing to slaughter them with clerics backing them up. Because that is what is likely to happen. Or adventurers would be hired to kill them.

Now you have a fun game where they need each other to survive. They might still kill each other but naturally it could result in their own death. This could wind up as a dungeonmaker campaign, where they are the BBEG and need to survive the forces of goods attempts to eradicate them.

You'll notice that the four examples the OP gave in the first sentence were crimes committed specifically against party members. They're not just being evil. They're being jerks.

Making them rely on each other to survive is, in my mind, an effective tactic for dealing with a mature evil party, but I really don't think that these people play characters who care much about their own survival.

[Aemoh87]

You'll notice that the four examples the OP gave in the first sentence were crimes committed specifically against party members. They're not just being evil. They're being jerks.

Making them rely on each other to survive is, in my mind, an effective tactic for dealing with a mature evil party, but I really don't think that these people play characters who care much about their own survival.

Yeah that is kinda a X factor. If the party members wanna do that crap they can't really play DND can they.

[Chewz]

I do punish them accordingly for being evil, and so do the other party members. That is the problem, that when I punish them accordingly they have no choice but to either flee or die, both of which split the group. I have been more than accommodating to their choices, but they aren't making smart choices about being evil, nor noticing the difference between "****ing insane" and "evil".

[Aemoh87]

I do punish them accordingly for being evil, and so do the other party members. That is the problem, that when I punish them accordingly they have no choice but to either flee or die, both of which split the group. I have been more than accommodating to their choices, but they aren't making smart choices about being evil, nor noticing the difference between "****ing insane" and "evil".

Just tell them if the party is split your not the DM. One of them can DM. And if your still feeling rage look up how to make a godly lvl 1 sorc to start the campaign and just touch attack kill everything and everyone :)

[Zaq]

I don't think this is going to be a problem that you can resolve with an intact group, from what you've told us. I think the only solution is going to be either the removal of the problem player(s) or the dissolution of the group. If you've already tried talking to them and telling them that what they're doing is actively ruining other people's fun . . . well, someone who persists in doing that sort of thing after being told that they were ruining the group just plain isn't someone I want to play with.

Cut to the chase. Kick 'em out. If you hadn't tried talking to them yet, I'd say do that first and then give them one more chance, but if you've already tried a mature discussion . . . boot 'em.