Dread Necromancers, spell balance, and more general random questions

[Demonic Spoon]

Hello. Next in my series of threads about dumb questions™, I will be asking you veterans about balance, spells, and giant waves of undead!

In my current campaign, I'm playing a Dread Necromancer (from Heroes of Horror, 11th level currently). It is incredibly fun, but I have a number of things that are confusing me.

Firstly, is the way I'm playing involves having a bunch of minions. I think last encounter I had a frost giant skeleton with a fleshgrinding greataxe, a skeleton tlalusk (Frostburn), a skeleton triceratops, and a dire bear skeleton...in addition to having a vampire cohort. It's really cool, I feel like I may be somewhat obnoxious to the rest of the party playing this way.

First, and most obvious, is that controlling 3+ characters in a battle takes up more time in combat. Granted, it's usually pretty simple actions that I don't have to think about (You, charge this, you charge that, etc.)...

More importantly, though, when I'm running around with multiple CR 6-10 creatures, I may be...overshadowing other people a bit? A lot of encounters pretty much consist of my undead sitting there taking a bunch of hits and the rest of the party running around doing stuff when possible. Given that the DM has to balance the encounter against a party supported by all this stuff, it also has a habit of making things very difficult for the rest of them. When the DM has us face multiple casters with Disintegrate, occasionally one will decide to point it towards something that's not one of my undead and instagib them.

I've shown the DM some of the more effective ways to deal with mindless undead (Halt Undead, affects multiple targets, no save...) but I still feel overpowering in most encounters.

The question, then, is this: Do you think that this kind of play saps fun from the rest of the players?



My second question is related to balance. Specifically, item and spell balance. First, spells. Most of the spells (and many of the class features) seem kind of bad. The dread necromancer touch attack doesn't seem useful except for healing undead. A lot of the spells are the same...A huge number of the spells require a save and only apply something minor like -2 on saves/attacks or something similarly minor.

There's a 5th level spell I have "Waves of fatigue" that gives a bunch of enemies -2 on pretty much all rolls. Fantastic, except I could use that same spell slot to just spectral hand slay living a bunch of stuff. Are these as...meh...as I think they are? There's a lot of cool stuff in there that it seems a shame to only ever want to use a small number of them.

Anyway, I'm done rambling. Thoughts?

[SilverClawShift]

Full casters do tend to be attention grabbing in a way other characters just tend not to be. There IS some struggle for a DM to make a game enjoyable for the straight casters and 'everyone else'.

Dread Necromancers is even more attention grabbing just because "Hey guys, remember that room full of monsters? Now it's a room full of ALLIED ZOMBIES!". It's like having a hardcore summoner in the party. Anything you do is going to have the "What if we just bring in a 14 foot tall angel to deal with this?" shadow hanging over it.

That said, it shouldn't necessarily be game stopping? It's completely fair for a DM to silently shift the upcoming story to account for it. The BBEG could have a positive energy wielding Knight Templar henchmen who's your own little mini rival. Or simply setting up encounters which are best approached by splitting up. Then whatever team has the shambling corpses on it gets a different trick pulled on them.
It's not necessarily as easy to do as a party of 4 fighters tackling hill giants all day, but the best things in life usually need a little effort put into them afterall.

[faceroll]

Let the other players run your minions for you.

[Greenish]

There's a 5th level spell I have "Waves of fatigue" that gives a bunch of enemies -2 on pretty much all rolls.Doesn't Waves of Fatigue cause… fatigue?

I mean, the enemy can't run or charge, and takes dex & str penalty. And can be escalated to Exhausted. It's not terribad for no save AoE.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I played a Dread Necromancer in a high level game one time. I had a few Awakened Cave Troll (MM3) Skeletons, an Awakened Arrow Demon (MM3) Skeleton with Spell Storing arrows filled with Maximized Shivering Touch (18 Dex damage per hit), a Curst Half Ironwyrm Golem ubercharger that nothing in all of 3.5 could destroy, an Umbral Naztharune Rakshasa (MM3) that dealt about 40 Str damage per hit, a Spellstitched Slaymate (LM) which had been his own daughter, and some sort of flying undead mount that didn't ever fight so I can't even remember what it was. Each of my turns took about 10 minutes, I would not do that again. The DM got the best of the Curst Half Ironwyrm Golem via an artifact effect consisting of a bottomless chasm opening under its feet, then closing after it fell in.

I've found the best way to play a Dread Necromancer is to have no more than two powerful minions who travel with you and fight for you, and get a Ghostly Visage for your familiar. In the lower levels use Summon Undead to get meat shields to protect your party. The Ghostly Visage should always be possessing you especially if you're not already undead, and in combat it should manifest over your face to use its paralyzing gaze attack. Every round it can spend a standard action to force an opponent to save again or be paralyzed, even if they're not looking at it. Be careful because the gaze could affect allies as well, but it's a fear effect so your undead are immune.

You should cast no-save debuffs and crowd control spells like (Split) Ray of Enfeeblement/Exhaustion, Blindness (on poor base Fort save (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#types) opponents), Evard's Black Tentacles, (Split Ray) Enervation (with Arcane Thesis, Sanctum Spell, Twin Spell, a Lesser Rod of Maximize...), Waves of Fatigue/Exhaustion, etc. Try to keep opponents from being effective while the rest of your party and undead minions defeat them.

Note that the Mass Inflict/Cure spells should be able to designate the same creatures multiple times as targets, up to the maximum number of targets. Each number of targets put toward one creature would be that many of the spell's d8's plus caster level, up to the maximum caster level bonus. For example, at level 11 a Mass Inflict Light Wounds targeted three times at three creatures and twice at one creature (11 targets) would deal 3d8+25 to the creatures targeted three times (the CL max), and 2d8+22 to the creature targeted twice, or it would heal undead by that amount. That revelation actually makes the Mass Cure/Inflict spells worth casting, and does not conflict with any current rules; why else do they give "+1 per caster level (such a high limit)" unless you could double-up on targets.

[Demonic Spoon]

Doesn't Waves of Fatigue cause… fatigue?

I mean, the enemy can't run or charge, and takes dex & str penalty. And can be escalated to Exhausted. It's not terribad for no save AoE.

Wait, it has no save?!

<looks it up>

Well then...

I just didn't read the spell descriptions properly. Most of these are...pretty good, actually. And the fear line of spells...thought they just caused the target to become shaken...Crushing depair still seems very meh, though

Apparently I just suck at reading spell descriptions.


"Hey guys, remember that room full of monsters? Now it's a room full of ALLIED ZOMBIES!".

I laughed, really, really hard for some reason. Very glad my roommate is gone for the weekend.



Let the other players run your minions for you.

This is a great idea actually.



I played a Dread Necromancer in a high level game one time. I had a few Awakened Cave Troll (MM3) Skeletons, an Awakened Arrow Demon (MM3) Skeleton with Spell Storing arrows filled with Maximized Shivering Touch (18 Dex damage per hit), a Curst Half Ironwyrm Golem ubercharger that nothing in all of 3.5 could destroy, an Umbral Naztharune Rakshasa (MM3) that dealt about 40 Str damage per hit, a Spellstitched Slaymate (LM) which had been his own daughter, and some sort of flying undead mount that didn't ever fight so I can't even remember what it was. Each of my turns took about 10 minutes, I would not do that again. The DM got the best of the Curst Half Ironwyrm Golem via an artifact effect consisting of a bottomless chasm opening under its feet, then closing after it fell in.

Don't skeletons lose all special abilities and whatnot when they...become skeletons? Also, are all of those under 20 HD? I've always seemed very limited in what I could raise, though maybe this is just with animate dead.



I've found the best way to play a Dread Necromancer is to have no more than two powerful minions who travel with you and fight for you, and get a Ghostly Visage for your familiar. In the lower levels use Summon Undead to get meat shields to protect your party. The Ghostly Visage should always be possessing you especially if you're not already undead, and in combat it should manifest over your face to use its paralyzing gaze attack. Every round it can spend a standard action to force an opponent to save again or be paralyzed, even if they're not looking at it. Be careful because the gaze could affect allies as well, but it's a fear effect so your undead are immune.

I actually don't have a familiar right now...Too afraid of it dying horribly and inflicting massive XP penalties on me. The way 3.5 is (or at least my perception of it), it seems like way more of a hindrance than a help.


As to the rest of the post: I appreciate the advice. I had definitely not thought of split ray...

[Stallion]

a Curst Half Ironwyrm Golem ubercharger that nothing in all of 3.5 could destroy




Except the Remove Curse spell. Kind of a rather...... well, gaping hole in that template that turns it from WTFOVERPOWERED at first glance to more of a.... well, gigantic disappointment.

[Coidzor]

Apparently I just suck at reading spell descriptions.

It's a skill you have to build up over time, really.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Trust me, you didn't even begin to break Dread Necromancer. You didn't do Corpsecrafter, Destructive Retribution, and you haven't even started looking for an undead bard with Requiem yet. So trust me, you've a LONG way to go before you start thinking that you've become too powerful.

Enervation is a deadly spell, if you know how to use it right. Enough negative levels, and anything falls apart. Except undead, of course. But for undead, you always have the option of Control/Command Undead and make them YOUR minions.

If you do pick up Corpsecrafter and Destructive Retribution, don't forget that they apply to your Summon Undead spell series as well. Explosive minions are fun!

[Demonic Spoon]

I only discovered that Libris Mortis existed -after- I had already built my character and had him go down the Fiendish Heritage line. Also, Corpsecrafter does not stack with the DN's Undead Mastery, sadly.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Don't skeletons lose all special abilities and whatnot when they...become skeletons? Also, are all of those under 20 HD? I've always seemed very limited in what I could raise, though maybe this is just with animate dead.

I actually don't have a familiar right now...Too afraid of it dying horribly and inflicting massive XP penalties on me. The way 3.5 is (or at least my perception of it), it seems like way more of a hindrance than a help.

Awaken Undead in Spell Compendium gives them back all of their extraordinary special abilities, and makes them no longer mindless. That includes extraordinary special attacks such as Pounce, Improved Grab, Rake, all of the Arrow Demon's archery tricks, etc., as well as extraordinary special qualities such as Fast Healing, Scent, and certain types of DR. An Arrow Demon is only 10 HD, a Cave Troll is 9 HD.

The Ghostly Visage in Fiend Folio is incorporeal, and when it's possessing you it makes you immune to all mind-affecting effects. When it's possessing you it's immune to pretty much everything in the game. It can only be attacked when it manifests over your face to use its gaze attack, most creatures won't recognize that it's a separate creature, and there's still a 50% chance that attacks directed at it hit your character instead. If it does take any damage, it can just go back into your character and be safe until you can heal it up with your Charnel Touch. Definitely not a liability at all.


Except the Remove Curse spell. Kind of a rather...... well, gaping hole in that template that turns it from WTFOVERPOWERED at first glance to more of a.... well, gigantic disappointment.

Half-Golem gives it the same magic immunities as the base golem had. An Ironwyrm Golem is immune to all magic, even if it would ignore SR, even supernatural effects, so Remove Curse has absolutely no affect on it.

[Demonic Spoon]

it seems odd that Awaken Undead isn't a natural spell for Dread Necromancers...It would seem a natural choice. You have to use Advanced Learning to get it, right?

[Coidzor]

Half-Golem gives it the same magic immunities as the base golem had. An Ironwyrm Golem is immune to all magic, even if it would ignore SR, even supernatural effects, so Remove Curse has absolutely no affect on it.

Isn't it unraisable if it's a Half-Golem in the first place though? Or can one really make Curst out of constructs? :smallconfused: Or are those immunities in place even if the thing made the save so its type didn't change?


it seems odd that Awaken Undead isn't a natural spell for Dread Necromancers...It would seem a natural choice. You have to use Advanced Learning to get it, right?

I think Dread Necromancers came out before Spell Compendium, so that's part of it. The other part is that the lists of warmages, beguilers, and dread necromancers were purposefully kept pared down of the best options possible for them as well as made to have small spell lists so that they didn't unbalance the game by having constant access to all necromancy or illusion or enchantment spells. No idea what they were worried about for warmages other than Radiant Servants and Silver Flame Pyromancers.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

it seems odd that Awaken Undead isn't a natural spell for Dread Necromancers...It would seem a natural choice. You have to use Advanced Learning to get it, right?

Yes, you can get it at level 12 since it's a 6th level spell on the Deathbound domain list. It's competing for that spot with Animate Dread Warrior from Unapproachable East, though.


Isn't it unraisable if it's a Half-Golem in the first place though? Or can one really make Curst out of constructs? :smallconfused: Or are those immunities in place even if the thing made the save so its type didn't change?

Half-Golem doesn't change your creature type unless you fail the save and become mindless. There was actually a big thread on the old WotC boards during 3.0 about how to perform both processes simultaneously (adding Curst and Half-Golem) to result in an unkillable creature, which still works in 3.5.

[Goblite]

Note that the Mass Inflict/Cure spells should be able to designate the same creatures multiple times as targets, up to the maximum number of targets. Each number of targets put toward one creature would be that many of the spell's d8's plus caster level, up to the maximum caster level bonus. For example, at level 11 a Mass Inflict Light Wounds targeted three times at three creatures and twice at one creature (11 targets) would deal 3d8+25 to the creatures targeted three times (the CL max), and 2d8+22 to the creature targeted twice, or it would heal undead by that amount. That revelation actually makes the Mass Cure/Inflict spells worth casting, and does not conflict with any current rules; why else do they give "+1 per caster level (such a high limit)" unless you could double-up on targets.

I dunno... i don't think that's at all in the spirit of the spell. Most spells that allow you to hit the same target multiple times specifically say so. Some say the spell creates a number of "things" that you can hit any target with, others say you can distribute this effect however you wish, but in the case of mass inflict/cure spells you just have a target of "one creature per level," it doesnt say you can select targets one time per level or that you get to deal damage with it once per level. The mass word kinda gets nullified with your idea and if you compare it to harm at 11th level on single target:

Harm = 110 damage but cannot outright kill a target, save for half.
Mass Inflict = (1d8+11)x11 which could also be written 11d8+121

That would mean a 5th level spell could deal almost twice as much damage as a 6th level spell, be able to kill a target when then 6th level spell cannot, and have the versatility of distributing damage to other targets. That's bat-poop crazy man.

[Deophaun]

it seems odd that Awaken Undead isn't a natural spell for Dread Necromancers...It would seem a natural choice. You have to use Advanced Learning to get it, right?
Technically, you can research it to add it to your list. Since Advanced Learning basically says that there can be a DN version of any Wizard or Cleric Necromancy spell, you're pretty much pre-approved by RAW.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I dunno... i don't think that's at all in the spirit of the spell. Most spells that allow you to hit the same target multiple times specifically say so. Some say the spell creates a number of "things" that you can hit any target with, others say you can distribute this effect however you wish, but in the case of mass inflict/cure spells you just have a target of "one creature per level," it doesnt say you can select targets one time per level or that you get to deal damage with it once per level. The mass word kinda gets nullified with your idea and if you compare it to harm at 11th level on single target:

Harm = 110 damage but cannot outright kill a target, save for half.
Mass Inflict = (1d8+11)x11 which could also be written 11d8+121

That would mean a 5th level spell could deal almost twice as much damage as a 6th level spell, be able to kill a target when then 6th level spell cannot, and have the versatility of distributing damage to other targets. That's bat-poop crazy man.

Mass Inflict Moderate Wounds (6th) gets a maximum of +30, so targeted eleven times at a single creature it would deal no more than 11d8+30, for an average of only 80 damage.

[Douglas]

The Mod Radiant: Please do not necro old threads.