Burning Wheel, How easy is it to modify and use?

[Tiki Snakes]

I'm currently looking into the possibility of running a Legend of Mana (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKbt48PYzaA&feature=related)(And other similar games) inspired sandbox campaign. Now, I could just shoe-horn it into something I already have, as fluff only, but I feel that the Burning-Wheel / Mouseguard focus on beliefs and instincts and so on could give a much better feel to the kind of campaign I'd be interested in running with such a whimsical setting.

Now, the question is, If I buy the Burning Wheel system what am I actually getting? How easy would it be to incorporate a very nonstandard fantasy setting? Does the main book devote a portion of itself to detailing a default setting (that I would never use)?

How simple is it to homebrew monsters, stat npc's, add custom elements for PC's and generally do all the kind of stuff many DM's tend to spend their time doing? Also, I remember hearing that the system was simplified or possibly even improved when it was adapted for MouseGuard. Anyone familiar with the differences?

[Xefas]

Burning Wheel has no default setting, and several books devoted to giving you the tools to create your own stuff (The Monster Burner, Magic Burner, and Adventure Burner). Although, even without those books, with a little elbow grease, you should be able to do it yourself.

Mouse Guard, in my experience, is not what you want for a "whimsical" game. It's pretty gritty, and the system is designed to beat the ever living crap out of the player characters, stab them, burn them, make them sick, make them hungry, and drag them through a bed of emotional turmoil before they get a chance at anything they want.

And, really Mouse Guard is less about Beliefs/Instincts (although it still certainly is) and adds in a heavy "Nature" component, i.e. your basic nature is to be a coward, but you strive to be a hero, and the drama that unfolds from that inner conflict.

EDIT: I'm sure Glug will come along and explain it better...

[UserClone]

:Throws pokeball: GLUG! I CHOOSE YOU!

[Totally Guy]

Flippin' heck! I'm developing a reputation here.

BW philosophy is that the people make the setting. You create characters by choosing these lifepaths. This creates setting appropriate characters.

So if you want to fundamentally change from standard fantasy, it depends on how you are doing it. If everyone lives on a floating city, or a lava world or something like that you might need to create or omit lifepaths to represent how people are different because of thier envionment. You might change traits or skills that some lifepaths offer. The guide for how to do this is in the Monster Burner.

It really depends on how far you are going away from standard fantasy and how much this changes the people of the setting. Something too alien will be too much work.

As far as changing magic, there's the whole Magic Burner to talk about that.

From this point the actual changes to the systems of the game will be minimal. Range and Cover, Duel of Wits... All stay the same. The character creation process is done after the start.

[Tiki Snakes]

It sounds flexible enough that I could certainly work with it. I may just have to give it a shot after all.

You wouldn't happen to know if there's any kind of preview material for it? I know some systems publish little introductory pamphlets or pdf's, and given how fundamentally different BW is, it might be worth looking at before I start shelling out the big money...

[UserClone]

If you like the Mouse Guard comics, I'd say that's about as close to introductory material as is published, sadly. On the other hand, though, the comic is a perfect gauge of whether you will like the game. I love RPGs and saw "Mouse Guard RPG" on a shelf in the bookstore. Within five minutes of opening it and realizing how complimentary the system is to the writing style of the comics, and how it is built to create those kinds of stories, I was hooked and knew this was a must-buy for me.

[Tiki Snakes]

Friendly Local Gaming Store's website says it's in stock... Ah hell. Temptation strikes, think it's time to nip in to town...
And here was me trying to save money this week. :smallsmile:

Anyway, no, haven't had chance to read any mouse-guard. I'd love to, though, given chance.

[UserClone]

Mouse Guard is hands-down, my favorite comic of the 21st century.

[Totally Guy]

There's the downloads section of the wiki (http://www.burningwheel.org/wiki/index.php?title=Downloads#Burning_Wheel) which has the first chapter and the duel of wits. There's also the character generation chapter and the orc lifepaths. Orcs have the fewest lifepaths... their society is very rigid and individuals are oppressed and rather immobile. Human society has far more facets to it.

[Tiki Snakes]

Too late, I bought it. :smallbiggrin:

[edit] and two thoughts;
Firstly, it's good, but suprisingly rule heavy in some ways.
Secondly, to run my concepts I'm going to not only have to actually prepare for once, but probably do a lot of writing/homebrewing.

If I go for the Drow Campaign idea I'd been mulling over, all I need to do is cobble together something appropriate from the downloadable path of spite and some lifepaths I found on the wiki (homebrewed), probably re-balance it a bit and switch songs for standard magic? A project, but should be doable.

If I go for my other idea, crudely described above, then I'll have to figure out what the setting even includes and involves and possibly do the same, (though potentially do a lot less).

On the plus side, it sounds to me like once it's going, a larger chunk than normal of the pressure and work will be heaped on the players, so it should be a little easier to run than some systems, in some respects.

[Totally Guy]

The Paths of Spite stuff makes total badasses.

I find the game is a lot of work upfront. But once you get going it gets simpler. The NPCs you can create on the fly by "exaggerating" a lifepath.

The players have got to know a good chunk of the system too so they know what they can expect from task/intent, a DoW stake, a belief, etc.

[Tiki Snakes]

From what little I follow, the paths of spite making total badasses is kind of half the problem. They've very much pitched their elves, dark or otherwise, on the immortal flawless uberbeings side. Oh, and both elves and dark elves having a built in death-o-meter really throws me.

But, yeah, I think I'll worry about figuring out the system first then get into the 'brewing. :smallsmile: Time enough for putting the house in order when I've figured out how it all works.

[Totally Guy]

Oh, and both elves and dark elves having a built in death-o-meter really throws me.

It's actually really hard to fill those up. By the time you are 9 it becomes very difficult to get challenging tests as not many things will do it.

[Tiki Snakes]

It's actually really hard to fill those up. By the time you are 9 it becomes very difficult to get challenging tests as not many things will do it.

Yeah, but having a death meter that it's safe to ignore doesn't fit any better with what I'm aiming for, so it doesn't make much difference either way. BW is all about theme, after all, right?

[obliged_salmon]

Oh hey, I should come over to this forum more often.

First off, welcome to Burning Wheel! I hope you're happy with your purchase.

Legend of Mana is one of my all-time favorite games. That being said, it'll be hard to adapt BW mechanics to it as a setting. Here's my advice, though. Stick almost exclusively to human stock lifepaths. Elves, dwarves and orcs are very Tolkienish in nature, and I don't see them corresponding well to the Mana character races. Humans are pretty diverse though. You can use the online trait burner to come up with individual traits for different races (i.e. Jumi can have a trait "life of the jewel" that ties them intrinsically to another Jumi, causes shared pain and gives a free relationship, if I'm remembering that story right).

Regarding lifepaths, you can pretty much choose the ones that most closely fit the character you see (i.e. knight, minstrel, sorcerer) and rename them, change a few wises around to suit the setting.

Unfortunately, it's no piece of cake to get the sword-swinging magicians from the setting, but not impossible. A little min-maxery with lifepaths can go a long way.

Many spells in the sorcery bit in the CB can relate to one or more of the elementals in Mana. With a little refluffing, most of them can.

For monsters, you can pretty much give them stats of your choosing as it comes up (i.e. power 5, speed 6). I don't think you'll want to have monster-fighting be as much a part of your BW game as it is a part of the Mana video game, though.

One last thought, wises, circles, and maybe even resources will allow your players to actually create the world around them, like in Legend of Mana with the artifacts, so make use of those!

[Tiki Snakes]

Actually, though I've got proper research to do before anything is set in stone, I'm considering using Elves as the base for Jumi (with some tweaking, I understand they are quite 'powerful' if nothing else). I vaguely recall a lot of talk about their Cores becoming 'tarnished' which might map suprisingly well to Greif.

Ditto, considering using Orcs as the bare bones of a race to build various beast-types on. The majority will be humans with selected lifepaths and a number of custom traits most likely. Hatred might have to go or be refluffed, if nothing else.

As the quote goes;
Penguins are a type of human, right?

Going to pick up the Monster Burner tonight, I've decided. Give me a bit more material to work with, and possibly make the amount of rough-and-ready homebrewing needed a little easier.

[UserClone]

See, you're making me want to buy the damn thing, and curse you for it! I'm a completionist, so now I'll have to obey my compulsion to get AB, MoB, and MaB as well as the standard BW and CB.

[Xefas]

See, you're making me want to buy the damn thing, and curse you for it! I'm a completionist, so now I'll have to obey my compulsion to get AB, MoB, and MaB as well as the standard BW and CB.

Why wouldn't you? Any human being can benefit from owning a full set of Burning Wheel. Buy an Adventure Burner for your grandma. And then just watch.

Her weekly Canasta game will never be the same.

[UserClone]

I lol'd.

But seriously, I can't afford that.

[Britter]

I lol'd.

But seriously, I can't afford that.

Honest truth here. the best 125 dollars I ever spent on gaming books was rounding out my BW collection. Don't do it all at once if you can't afford it, but I strongly suggest doing it. Very worthwhile.

Edit: And if you are going to drop Hatred, I think you are better off using traits and the human lifepaths to map out your beasts, as opposed to hacking orcs. The emotional attributes are most of the fun when it comes to playing BW Elves, Orcs, and Dwarves. The human stock is far more customizable. Add traits, many of which will be mostly cosmetic, and go from there. Without Hate to make them special, the orcs are not as interesting a platform to build on. My two cents.