DnD vs Parents

[Genome]

I am having trouble persuading my parents that DnD != witchcraft. They are against the whole concept of magic, especially wizards and sorcerers, and they claim that it is too much like real-life witchcraft. Some articles on this issue would really help, as well as any advice. Thanks in advance.

[The_Logic_Ninja]

...
"Real-life witchcraft"?
Riiiight.

Try pointing out that Tolkien's work had wizards. Tolkien was a devout Catholic.
Also, compare it to theater--they don't have any trouble seeing a play in which, say, murder is reenacted; why is this different?

Overall, though, if your parents actually believe in witchcraft and think it's evil and stuff... don't expect them to, y'know, be rational.

[BelkarsDagger]

*splutter* *laugh*

Withcraft? Real Life? You gotta be kidding me.

The Spooooooky Wizard isnt trying to haunt them...

[Azrael]

Or how about C.S. Lewis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.s._lewis)? Even his fiction writings are largely embraced by Christian communities as wholesome and faith-based. And his books involve magic.

[wippit]

I'm a parent. My son is 5. When he can actually read, I will be teaching him D&D.

My GF is a parent, her daughter is 8. She's already played in a game and complained that, as the princess daughter, she didn't get to do enough.

D&D != witchcraft. Trust me, in 23 years of playing, I've never once casted a fireball on my enemies, or found out how to fly.

So, I take it they won't let you watch Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings either?

[valadil]

Do they have a problem with Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter? Point out that what you're doing is acting out characters in a similar story.

Another option is to have a parent sit in on your game session. I know it would make the session kind of awkward, but it would let your parents see what you're actually doing and how harmless it is. The real problem is that they don't know what it is that you're doing so they assume the worst.

[The_Logic_Ninja]

Ask them how they seem to know so much about real life witchcraft. Have they seen it? Do they know witches? Have they read books on it? Maybe they're actually witches themselves!!! WITCHES! QUIT TRYING TO COVER IT UP!!111oneleven

[Dark Knight Renee]

What? That's stupid. Do these same parents let you watch movies or read books involving similar concepts? Do they let you play games? Yes? Then inform them that DnD involves rolling dice for random results (I hit the goblin vs. I miss the goblin), and 'magic' is a set of game mechanics and rules. It's no differant from most of the computer and console games out there, except it's more flexible than your average computer game and lacks the neat graphics.

There is no witchcraft in DnD.

[The_Logic_Ninja]

http://www.chick.com/tractimages31646/0046/0046_07.gif
Aw, c'mon, there totally is.

"I don't want to be Elfstar anymore! I want to be Debbie!"

Edit: as a side note, Original Poster, your age seems to be 18. If that's the case, just wait until you go off to college.

[Artisan]

You could...you know, get them to read one of the book. Or am I being too naive about the whole idea?

[wippit]

Download the Dead Alewifes "Dungeons and Dragons" and "Dungeons and Dragons 2". Let them listen. Then... they will know.


"I attack the darkness!"

[The_Logic_Ninja]

You could...you know, get them to read one of the book. Or am I being too naive about the whole idea?

Yes. If they do skim through the book, they'll just see "gods" and "succubi" and "magic".
People who really believe in eeeeevil witchcraft are not reasonable people. You can't reason with them, because they're not basing their opinions on anything remotely approaching logic.

[Were-Sandwich]

Yes. If they do skim through the book, they'll just see "gods" and "succubi" and "magic".
People who really believe in eeeeevil witchcraft are not reasonable people. You can't reason with them, because they're not basing their opinions on anything remotely approaching logic.

Quoted For Truth.

[Yuki Akuma]

Yes. If they do skim through the book, they'll just see "gods" and "succubi" and "magic".
People who really believe in eeeeevil witchcraft are not reasonable people. You can't reason with them, because they're not basing their opinions on anything remotely approaching logic.

Let them/force them to read the Dungeon Master's Guide or the Player's Handbook cover to cover...

Or record it on tape and give them the tape! ;D

[Shhalahr Windrider]

You could...you know, get them to read one of the book. Or am I being too naive about the whole idea?
You're being too niave.

You know that bit about D&D being too much like real witch craft has had to be one of the biggest laughs I've ever had on this board.

I can't really add any more to this discussion than has been said. All you can do is try and show them how it's really played.


Or record it on tape and give them the tape! ;D
And pray that they aren't very adept at tuning things out.

[Wolf53226]

You know, instead of making fun of his parents, shouldn't we all be applauding, that his parents CARE enough to look into what he is doing? Mine did the same thing when I got into roleplaying in the mid 80's, and you know what, they found that there fears were misplaced and let me play. There are enough parents out there that don't care to look into what there kids do, and that it sickens me. We (the U.S.A., don't want to implicate those nations that don't have this issue) are way too fast becoming a society that expects other people and organizations to look after our kids so that we don't have to.
<Gets off the soap box>

Anyway, he asked for articles for his parents to read.

The Pulling Report (http://www.rpg.net/sites/252/quellen/stackpole/pulling_report.html) By Micheal Stackpole.
A description of who Pat Pulling is. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BADD)

There are a number of good resources for your parents to read at the local library, I know, I have written a couple papers for various classes when I went to school. I could get you the name of them, if you need.

[The_Logic_Ninja]

You know, instead of making fun of his parents, shouldn't we all be applauding, that his parents CARE enough to look into what he is doing?

What? Hell, no! Are we going to applaud them for breathing next?

If as a parent you express caring by forbidding your child a game because it promotes real-life witchcraft, no, people bloody well shouldn't be applauding.

[Telonius]

I have known real-life Wiccans. Not a single one of them ever tried to cast Magic Missile on me.

On a more serious note, explain that the premise of the adventures you're on is to defeat the bad guys.

Regarding the use of "magic," direct them to this quote, from Lord of the Rings:

`Many things I can command the Mirror to reveal,’ she answered, `and to some I can show what they desire to see. But the Mirror will also show things unbidden, and those are often stranger and more profitable than things which we wish to behold. What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, things that yet may be. But which it is that he sees, even the wisest cannot always tell. Do you wish to look? ‘
Frodo did not answer.
`And you? ‘ she said, turning to Sam. ‘For this is what your folk would call magic. I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel. Did you not say that you wished to see Elf-magic? ‘

[NullAshton]

Okay, yeah, it's real magic. D&D actually teaches people how to cast the spells contained therein.

This (http://www.theescapist.com/random011102.htm) details how one man did it.(Or at least tried to.)Show your parents that, and they should at least get a laugh out of it.

[Millikin_Erreene]

If your parents think the Dungeons and Dragons magic system is similiar to real life witchcraft then they clearly don't know anything about witchcraft.


But you can always print out the wiki entry for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_&_Dragons

[The_Logic_Ninja]

I have known real-life Wiccans. Not a single one of them ever tried to cast Magic Missile on me.

Yeah, that's because -they- don't know any -real witchcraft- either.

[Ravyn]

Do you write? If so, I recommend approaching it from the angle that roleplaying games are like a form of collaborative fiction with a built-in way of avoiding arguments over whether the protagonists can do what their writers say they do or not. I have a friend who had this problem, and the approach seemed to be working. I also second Valadil's suggestion; the less you seem to be trying to hide, the more likely they are to listen. Secrecy raises suspicion.

If not, see if you can get them to rationalize how saying "I use this" and rolling dice is a gateway to witchcraft--I mean, I've never seen even the most fluff-happy player attempt to come up with specific rituals for these things. Guess I'm still trying to understand the logic process.

[Telonius]

Whether or not the parents are being silly (and I definitely agree that they are), Genome has to deal with them. Meeting them on their terms is probably better than taking an argumentative stance.

[Piccamo]

You know, instead of making fun of his parents, shouldn't we all be applauding, that his parents CARE enough to look into what he is doing?
It is possible to take interest in what your child is doing without having to restrict what the child does. My parents took an active interest in what I did. While they didn't "get" DnD they saw what it was and didn't mind at all that I did it. If we pull the wool over our eyes and don't see the world how it is we are going to be ignorant and deprived people.

On a side note, Genome what part of PA do you live in? I lived near Gettysburg for a couple of years.

[The_Logic_Ninja]

Guess I'm still trying to understand the logic process.


There's your problem.


Whether or not the parents are being silly (and I definitely agree that they are), Genome has to deal with them. Meeting them on their terms is probably better than taking an argumentative stance.
"Meeting them on their terms" meaning, what, not playing D&D? Yeah, I guess that's an option.

Genome's profile says he's 18. If that's the case, seriously--just wait until you go off to college. Then you can enact all the Satanic rituals you want. Just remember to use live babies.

[gtoast99]

If as a parent you express caring by forbidding your child a game because it promotes real-life witchcraft, no, people bloody well shouldn't be applauding.

Yes, we should applaud. Would you let your child play a game that promotes values against your own? Would you let your kid play games that lead to real life sex or drugs or violence? I would certainly hope not, and for those who would, I pray they never breed.

That said, does DnD promote values against those of most mainstream religions? Does it lead to real life sex and drugs and violence? A resounding no! Now lets help this chap figure out how to let his parents know what we all know, that it isn't evil. Thank you, wolfsomenumbers, for bringing it up.

I would describe a typical gaming session to them, and let them know what really happens, and let them sit in if they wish. Also, discuss with them the positive things gained from rpg'ing. Social interaction, teamwork, problem solving, mental exercise, empathy, resource management, decision making skills: all these qualities are side effects of a good rpg. Good luck, and tell us how it goes!

[The_Logic_Ninja]

Yes, we should applaud. Would you let your child play a game that promotes values against your own? Would you let your kid play games that lead to real life sex or drugs or violence? I would certainly hope not, and for those who would, I pray they never breed.

Mm-hmm. And should we likewise applaud parents who won't let their daughter play with GI Joes/their son with barbies because then, y'know, s/he'll become homosexual? Or parents who deny their children medical treatment for religious reasons?
Games don't "promote values", nor do they lead to real-life *anything*. As a parent, I'd realize that.

[Telonius]

It is possible to take interest in what your child is doing without having to restrict what the child does. My parents took an active interest in what I did. While they didn't "get" DnD they saw what it was and didn't mind at all that I did it. If we pull the wool over our eyes and don't see the world how it is we are going to be ignorant and deprived people.

On a side note, Genome what part of PA do you live in? I lived near Gettysburg for a couple of years.

Ah, Pennsylvania, that explains a lot. (I'm originally from Erie myself - I know how ridiculous people can get in that part of the country). I don't want to get too personal here, but what religious denomination are your parents? That might help with how to frame the argument.

[The_Logic_Ninja]

And remember--if your parents offer you kool-aid?

Don't drink it. :P

[Were-Sandwich]

Guess I'm still trying to understand the illogic process.


Fixed it for ya ;)

[The_Logic_Ninja]

On a more helpful note, instead of explaining D&D, you could try doing the opposite.

Get them to explain how "real witchcraft" works. Ask them to write you a list, or something; y'know--so you know what not to do.

Then compare it to D&D and point out the difference.

[Baskineli]

Get them to read the Book of Vile Darkness.

























And then tell them you are only playing core books. They will be more than happy.

[Telonius]

Hmm, giving them both heart attacks would be one way out of the problem, I suppose. ;D

[Ravyn]

On a more general note, one tactic you might want to use to get through the debate is applying what's known as Miller's Law: imagine for a moment that their position is true, then try to figure out what it would be true of. Basically, get as much as you can of their stance, try to figure out what logic (I'm not saying illogic for a reason--assuming the opponent will be illogical leads to sloppiness) they're using, and then address that directly.

[Were-Sandwich]

I think the problem is lack of information. Or just plain old fashion bloody mindedness. Its pointless arguing with someone who is absolutely completely unwaveringly convinced they are right, and couldn't be convinced if God Himself told them otherwise. Wait, bad example. You get the point.

[Meat Shield]

TLN, you're really not helping.

Genome, to restate the suggestions that have already been said (since they covered everything I would advise):

1) Be open with them
2) Find out what their real problem is, don't let them just give you "It's wrong because its witchcraft." Get real, physical logical insights from them.
3) Ask about LotR, Narnia, Harry Potter, etc. What do they think about them?
4) If all else fails, I will actually have to side with TLN on something - according to your profile, you are 18. You are your own man at that point, an can act accordingly.

Bon chance, mon ami.

[Were-Sandwich]

Your 18. At this point, your parents can whine and moan all they want, they can't stop you playing D&D, short of burning all your books or something.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Have your parents purchase 'Complete Psionic.' After a fit of projectile-vomiting, they will start muttering things about 'Azathoth' and 'Yog-sothoth.' Then, flee the country, and become a monk in a remote cloister in the Himalayas. You should be able to play DnD in peace then. That's what I did.

[eggy_goodness]

I sympathize, as I had this problem with the study hall monitor at my high school; just let the offending parties sit in on a game session. Also, have your DM do some weird things with the "gods" in your world to highlight the point that no one in your group is taking the game as seriously as some people think.

[Were-Sandwich]

Have your parents purchase 'Complete Psionic.' After a fit of projectile-vomiting, they will start muttering things about 'Azathoth' and 'Yog-sothoth.' Then, flee the country, and become a monk in a remote cloister in the Himalayas. You should be able to play DnD in peace then. That's what I did.

Lol


If they think D&D=Witchcraft, for the love of God, don't tell them about Call of Cthulhu.

[The_Logic_Ninja]

White Wolf needs to release a game called, I dunno, Witchcraft: the Pretentiousness.

Then kids can tell their parents, "Mom, I'm going over to Johnny's house for some Witchcraft! I'll be back after midnight!"

[eggy_goodness]

That would be sweet! I would buy it. :D

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: This is a friendly warning: discussions of real world politics and religion (including religious reactions to gaming) are out-of-bounds here.

I realize that the original poster's parents may have religious reasons for their objections, and it may be difficult to address his problem without addressing religion. If that's the case, let it go. Just don't go there.

If you can stay on topic and avoid any religious discussion, please carry on.

[TheThan]

Being a devout Christian I understand where Genome is coming from. My grandfather is a minister at a rather conservative church. So I know a thing or two about handling this kind of situation. There is a problem with trying to use reason and logic to convince someone that it is all right. That is people simply don’t listen, they have already made up their minds that DND= witchcraft. So any amount of logic or reason won’t help.

With that I suggest a different approach. I suggest playing a different role-playing game altogether. I started my life as a rpg gamer playing the d20 swrpg game. What happened is after I’ve gotten into the starwars game my parents became more open to other games and I bought the core dnd set and my parents didn’t mind especially since I showed them both games use the same rules. Now my parents don’t mind. Of course I’m older now and they’ve realized they can trust me to make good decisions (most of the time that is) .

The problem with asking your parents what they know about or what they think about certain books or movies it is that it will automatically put them on the defensive. They will certainly keep their minds closed to your logic and reasoning. Getting really snarky and that is not likely to win them over at all.

Now for me to give you any further help I have to know more about the people you wish to play dnd with. Because the game is a social game and your parents might have some problems with who your associating with.

edit: should have refreshed before i posted.

[TSGames]

I am having trouble persuading my parents that DnD != witchcraft. They are against the whole concept of magic, especially wizards and sorcerers, and they claim that it is too much like real-life witchcraft. Some articles on this issue would really help, as well as any advice. Thanks in advance.
I feel that a great injustice and misrepresentation has been visited upon your parents in this thread. I do applaud your parents for not merely being interested in what you do, but for actually worrying about your involvement in D&D.

It seems that many people have forgotten the reputation that D&D maintains in America. To most Americans D&D is something mysterious, a thing that they associate with witchcraft and Satanism. Why should they not? They've had no voices to listen to that said otherwise.

Understand, I do not believe that any parent would want to allow their child to become involved in something that could lead to dangerous paths. In the case of your parents it seems, as it was with my parents, that they simply do not know enough about D&D and have no reason as of yet to think of it as a harmless game.

Your parents were unduly mocked in this thread, as were many peoples' religious dedication and beliefs. It's not their fault that the American media gives D&D a bad rap, that it's not that popular, or that's commonly frowned upon in many social circles(although it's been growing more acceptable and popular). They need someone to explain to them that it's just a game and has nothing to with actually attempting to worship false gods/cast spells.

As such, I suggest that you be understanding of their reasonable concern and approach them logically. If done correctly you should be able to ease them, if only slightly. Then have them sit in on a session. One of my friends parents did that, and after a while it was like he wasn't even there, we were just having a good time, and after that he was OK with it.

Also, I hate to be cynical, but TLN did say at least one correct statement in this thread, you're(not "your") 18 and will be going to college or at least be your own man soon, but I still encourage that you try to ease your parents and help them understand what D&D is before you do that.

In short, it's not your parents’ fault they don't understand, they've had no one to tell them otherwise.

1 grammar mistake.

[SlyJohnny]

Lie to them about what RPG you're playing, if you can. They sound like they have some retarded obsession with D&D in particular and lack the intellectual capacity to actually be reasonable about this, so screw 'em.

This post would be a lot longer and more even-tempered, if Logic Ninja hadn't already said everything Id want to say, except in a more articulate fashion. Good on ya, man :)

[CharPixie]

Starting with Star Wars d20 is a very good idea. The magic system in it isn't connected to the ideas of wizardry. And, besides some very ugly looking guys in catinas, there aren't any devils at all in the book.

Being familiar with the source material won't hurt them either.

EDIT: Also, show them the chapters in the D&D book about magic. Magic in D&D is very much like video game magic. There are a few spells you can summon demons with, sure, but you can use the same spells to summon angels. You can also raise the dead in the game; but, with 'casting a spell'. Something very similar to pressing the fight key in a video game.

No matter what they believe is possible in the world (i.e. if people can actually summon demons or raise the dead), they'll be hard-pressed to see any real description of how to do it in the game. I've seen a lot of gravedirt in my time, and none of it has seemed to raise up skeletons.

[Thomas]

The Stackpole report is the best retort to "D&D is witchcraft" ever written, really. It goes into excruciating detail about the usual misconceptions involved, and the ones so energetically propagated by Patricia Pulling.

The problem, of course, is that it takes hours to read. That's no problem if you're someone who's genuinely interested in it, but it's so much easier for someone who hates D&D to go, "This is way too much effort to change my opinions. I like my opinions the way they are. Screw this."


TLN's suggestion of having them explain what the heck "real witchcraft" is supposed to be would be a good start, except that people who think witchcraft is real and evil don't tend to have any definition, even in their own heads, for the concept; and if you start asking them about it, they'll get defensive. That won't work.

I'd actually recommend getting a copy of The Gamers (http://www.deadgentlemen.com/dgmedia/) and having the parents watch that. Unfortunately, this assumes that they have a sense of humor, and are at least vaguely rational (i.e. don't believe magic and "witchcraft" actually exist). If they are already mixing up characters casting magic with the players casting magic, the movie may just confuse them more.

A better option might be talking with your group and letting your parents (or one of them, anyway) watch you play once. (Make sure not to include any terribly offensive elements in the session. ;) )

If they're familiar with computer games, point at a CRPG (World or Warcraft?) and explain, "It's like this, except we do it around a table."


Personally, if my parents had ever given me trouble about RPGs, I'd have been insulted and not just a little outraged. At eighteen, I would have called them out on this kind of superstition and idiocy (there comes an age where you're going to have to stand up to them and assert your right to make your own decisions, even if that means supporting yourself financially after the argument is over - but that's my principles, not the OP's, and I certainly wouldn't recommend such a rash course of action).

In any such confrontation about this sort of topic, though, you can't afford to be emotional or heated - not even a little bit. (No raising your voice; no talking over them; if you're interrupted, wait, ask "Can I finish?" when they're done, pick up where you were, and repeat this as many times as necessary until you've said your piece.) You have to remain rational, composed, and concise. The facts are on your side! No person has ever cast a spell, summoned a demon, conjured a demigod, charmed or spellbound another human being, turned an animal into a familiar, or brewed a magic potion.

Good luck.

[The_Logic_Ninja]

Your parents were unduly mocked in this thread, as were many peoples' religious dedication and beliefs. It's not their fault that the American media gives D&D a bad rap, that it's not that popular, or that's commonly frowned upon in many social circles(although it's been growing more acceptable and popular). They need someone to explain to them that's it's just a game and has nothing to with actually attempting to worship false gods/cast spells...

In short, it's not your parents’ fault they don't understand, they've had no one to tell them otherwise.

What the hell?

It is absolutely someone's fault if they leap to the assumption that something is "evil" without doing any honest research, looking into it, etc. Ignorance is not an excuse for acting on that ignorance.
I don't know that much about, say, Sikhism, but I don't, y'know, arbitrarily leap to the assumption that it's evil just because they wear turbans and I heard on TV once that people in turbans are bad.

Frankly, no, "explaining to them that it's just a game" won't work a lot of the time. It worked for you, but if someone is irrational and illogical enough to believe in that there is such a thing as "real witchcraft" and that D&D is related to it, logic and reason probably won't work so well.

[Thomas]

Lie to them about what RPG you're playing, if you can. They sound like they have some retarded obsession with D&D in particular and lack the intellectual capacity to actually be reasonable about this, so screw 'em.

This post would be a lot longer and more even-tempered, if Logic Ninja hadn't already said everything Id want to say, except in a more articulate fashion. Good on ya, man :)

Great idea. I'm sure they'll never accidentally find one of those books with "Dungeons & Dragons" on the cover.

::)

[Were-Sandwich]

Does anyone know of a TV show or movie, where they show D&D being played, but don't mock it or have people dressed up in costumes or anything? If you find one, show it to them.

[The Demented One]

I've just realized I completely match the profile for satanic occultitude on the whole Pulling woman's thingy...and yet, I don't have any occult powers. No cult has ever tried to recruit me, none of my DMs have ever asked me if I'm ready to start using real magic. What am I doing wrong?

[Telonius]

Does anyone know of a TV show or movie, where they show D&D being played, but don't mock it or have people dressed up in costumes or anything? If you find one, show it to them.

Well, there was that one episode of the X-Files where they show the Lone Gunmen playing it. Don't know if that would help, since they seem to be gambling on the d20 results.

[The_Logic_Ninja]

I've just realized I completely match the profile for satanic occultitude on the whole Pulling woman's thingy...and yet, I don't have any occult powers. No cult has ever tried to recruit me, none of my DMs have ever asked me if I'm ready to start using real magic. What am I doing wrong?


You obviously need to have your cleric raised to the eighth level. (http://www.chick.com/tractimages79151/0046/0046_04.gif)


---

On a more serious note--Thomas is absolutely right that if you're going to talk to them about this, you have to stay totally calm and totally polite. He's also right that they're not likely to read through any kind of long paper on the topic.

[Gyrfalcon]

Did you make sure to sacrifice the virgin properly? [/sarcasm]

[Were-Sandwich]

TLN, I'd remove that link if I were you. RolandStJude made the reigion thing quite clear. Even if it is funny as hell.

[Thomas]

I've just realized I completely match the profile for satanic occultitude on the whole Pulling woman's thingy...and yet, I don't have any occult powers. No cult has ever tried to recruit me, none of my DMs have ever asked me if I'm ready to start using real magic. What am I doing wrong?

That's because the Pulling profile is utter bullsh*t, of course. ;) Sort of a reverse Forer effect (http://www.skepdic.com/forer.html) - it applies to pretty much all young people - or cold reading (http://www.skepdic.com/coldread.html). When you give a definition broad enough, you'll always get enough hits for a "positive result," and thanks to the file-drawer effect (http://www.skepdic.com/filedrawer.html) and similar illogical (but typical) thinking, one hit is easily worth more than five misses.

[The_Logic_Ninja]

TLN, I'd remove that link if I were you. RolandStJude made the reigion thing quite clear. Even if it is funny as hell.

Ummm... that panel doesn't reference any religion.

[Azrael]

I've just realized I completely match the profile for satanic occultitude on the whole Pulling woman's thingy...and yet, I don't have any occult powers. No cult has ever tried to recruit me, none of my DMs have ever asked me if I'm ready to start using real magic. What am I doing wrong?

You don't game with me. We do have occult powers. But we're not recruiting. Unless you make some really awesome food. Then we might re-consider.

----

And that, right there is a way to see just how irrational someone's fear of DnD is. Print them this thread. If they believe the paragraph above, give up. You simply cannot win.

Here I was thinking my sarcasm wouldn't add to the thread ;D.

[TheThan]

I saw an episode of “that seventies show” that had a tidbit of dnd at the end. I was laughing my ass off and my parents just look over at me with this uncomprehending look on their faces. I still grin when I think about it " I new I should have brought my gauntlets of ogre power!"

[TSGames]

What the hell?

It is absolutely someone's fault if they leap to the assumption that something is "evil" without doing any honest research, looking into it, etc. Ignorance is not an excuse for acting on that ignorance.
I don't know that much about, say, Sikhism, but I don't, y'know, arbitrarily leap to the assumption that it's evil just because they wear turbans and I heard on TV once that people in turbans are bad.

Frankly, no, "explaining to them that it's just a game" won't work a lot of the time. It worked for you, but if someone is irrational and illogical enough to believe in that there is such a thing as "real witchcraft" and that D&D is related to it, logic and reason probably won't work so well.
Really? And do his parents have any reason to believe that any evidence contrary to what they've already heard is not the work of cultist D&D players? No, they don't. They're acting in what they understandably believe to be the best interest of their child.

If a parent sees a walking toward something that looks like a deep pit with daggers at the bottom they don't wait to examine it, make sure it's actually a pit and then ban their child from it. Any parent pulls their child away from it, then researches. Their response was completely rational.

As for the real world witchcraft... I do not believe that anyone thinks spells can be cast in real life, I do think it was a reference to people who try to cast spells in real life, examine the context:

I am having trouble persuading my parents that DnD != witchcraft. They are against the whole concept of magic, especially wizards and sorcerers, and they claim that it is too much like real-life witchcraft.
Have you ever heard of a real life witch actually casting a spell? NO, but they try, and that's the point of it. It looks dangerous, it looks like it could lead down some dangerous roads, they as of yet have no reason to believe otherwise.

TLN, you are too cynical and your portrayal of his parents whom you nothing about other than them being as anti-D&D as every 2nd and 3rd person is cruel, unreasonable, and based on nothing other than your own extreme prejudices against those that don't like D&D.

[The Demented One]

You don't game with me. We do have occult powers. But we're not recruiting. Unless you make some really awesome food. Then we might re-consider.

I shall bring manwiches!

[Azrael]

Manwiches won't cut it.


--------------


DnDestruction: Greatly simplified, you are arguing that every intolerant, bigoted or otherwise ignorant individual is perfectly justified in their belief because they have not been properly exposed to that which they revile.

That is not a defensible stance.


EDIT: A lack of exposure might explain their position, but it does not justify it.

[Telonius]

You don't game with me. We do have occult powers. But we're not recruiting. Unless you make some really awesome food. Then we might re-consider.

----

And that, right there is a way to see just how irrational someone's fear of DnD is. Print them this thread. If they believe the paragraph above, give up. You simply cannot win.

Here I was thinking my sarcasm wouldn't add to the thread ;D.

Ahh, precisely the problem. Thou hast not given thine tithes to the DM, which should be in the form of pizza, beverages (alcoholic or otherwise), or perhaps in some pre-packaged nutritionally-deficient snack. Do these things, and unto thee we shall grant all the power thou seekest.

[WampaX]

EXTERMINATE
Voice of the Wampinator: Simmer down there, pepperpots.

[Thomas]

As for the real world witchcraft... I do not believe that anyone thinks spells can be cast in real life, I do think it was a reference to people who try to cast spells in real life, examine the context:

They do. That was one of the main assertions/assumptions behind Pat Pulling's BADD. Many people, and many prominent groups in the USA especially (and in other countries), believe that.

scrubbed

Belief that "D&D = witchcraft = evil" is grounded in superstition and belief in the supernatural (not necessarily any specific religion).

[TSGames]

DnDestruction: Greatly simplified misconstrued, you are arguing that every intolerant, bigoted or otherwise ignorant individual is perfectly justified in their belief because they have not been properly exposed to that which they revile.

That is not a defensible stance.


EDIT: A lack of exposure might explain their position, but it does not justify it.
Edited for correctness. It does however explain that position is reasonable right now. Granted, once they are confronted with evidence then they will morally responsible for choosing to reject it, but as of yet that hasn't seemed to happen.


scrubbed

So much for not mentioning religion, or not blatantly attacking nearly every Christian religion.

[Alchemistmerlin]

The answer is to move out of your house ASAP.

Your parents sound crazy and I fear for your safety.

Run, run as fast as you can and don't look back.

On a more serious note: If your parents are so severely brainwashed by the (Insert religion) community to believe that anti-D&D BS then you're not going to convince them otherwise. Religion is a wonderful excuse for people to blindly hate things, and people love blindly hating things, so I'd say your only option is to wait until you're not inhabiting the same space as they are.

Are we still trapped in the 80's or something? Hell even Tom Hanks refuses to admit to being in Mazes and Monsters (For those of you who don't know, that's a D&D Slander film)

Remember folks: Tomatoes are red, they are therefore poisonous.

[The_Logic_Ninja]

Really? And do his parents have any reason to believe that any evidence contrary to what they've already heard is not the work of cultist D&D players? No, they don't. They're acting in what they understandably believe to be the best interest of their child.
Believing--without any research into the matter--that your child's game is going to lead them to "witchcraft" is completely unjustifiable. "Cultist players"? Doesn't that sound a little... paranoid to you?
Rational people don't need a reason to believe something isn't the work of cultist game-players, they need a reason to believe something is.
And NO, "I heard somewhere..." isn't a good reason.


If a parent sees a walking toward something that looks like a deep pit with daggers at the bottom they don't wait to examine it, make sure it's actually a pit and then ban their child from it. Any parent pulls their child away from it, then researches. Their response was completely rational.
No. No, it wasn't. You're telling me it's rational to believe something is evil just because you heard it somewhere, and then believe that any arguments to the contrary are the work of cultists? That's not "rational", that's "blind and paranoid".
He's not a four-year-old running out onto the freeway, he's an eighteen year old child playing a game. No rational person could believe there is any danger so immediate you can't afford a little, well, *information*.

If you randomly heart somewhere that breaking your child's arm at midnight would prevent them from being affected by the Heebie-Jeebie Curse, would you do it, or maybe look into it a little?


As for the real world witchcraft... I do not believe that anyone thinks spells can be cast in real life, I do think it was a reference to people who try to cast spells in real life, examine the context:
Have you ever heard of a real life witch actually casting a spell? NO, but they try, and that's the point of it. It looks dangerous, it looks like it could lead down some dangerous roads, they as of yet have no reason to believe otherwise.
Umm, I think you're missing the point. From what his said, his parents DO believe in real witchcraft--as do many, many other people.


TLN, you are too cynical and your portrayal of his parents [i]whom you nothing about other than them being as anti-D&D as every 2nd and 3rd person is cruel, unreasonable, and based on nothing other than your own extreme prejudices against those that don't like D&D.
No, I'm really not. They're not "as anti-D&D as every 2nd and 3rd person".

The average person's opinion of D&D is, "D&D? What's that?" or "D&D? That's a game for nerds and losers."

According to the original post, they "are against the whole concept of magic" and "claim it is too much like real life witchcraft". That's pretty far out there.
I'm sure they're very loving and caring parents. But based on the information we're given, it's very unlikely that they're going to be rational and logical about this.

[belboz]

The Stackpole report is the best retort to "D&D is witchcraft" ever written, really. It goes into excruciating detail about the usual misconceptions involved, and the ones so energetically propagated by Patricia Pulling.

The problem, of course, is that it takes hours to read.

THe other problem with using Stackpole's report in these circumstances is that so much of it is devoted to a takedown of Pat Pulling. Now, don't get me wrong--the takedown is pretty fair. But unless the OP's parents are actually members of BAAD, it's really unlikely to have any effect. I mean, what's the chance that they've even *heard* of Pulling specifically?

In terms of concrete advice, I don't really know what to tell you (the OP) without further information. And that would involve asking questions that you possibly couldn't answer without getting into a religious discussion. (For example, we don't even know for a fact that your parents' opposition comes directly from a religious outlook. You shouldn't tell us, so I won't ask.) It is certainly true that legally, it's no longer any of their business what you do with your free time, but of course if you're dependent on them financially (e.g., you still live at home, or they're paying for your education), that doesn't really matter.

I'll just say this: *If* your parents are generally reasonable (pace TLN, plenty of generally reasonable people have a small handful of unreasonable beliefs), then a number of possibilities suggested already sound like good ones. If they aren't, you're pretty much out of luck until you have enough independence not to be bound by their rules.

[Wolf53226]

Manwiches won't cut it.


--------------


DnDestruction: Greatly simplified, you are arguing that every intolerant, bigoted or otherwise ignorant individual is perfectly justified in their belief because they have not been properly exposed to that which they revile.

That is not a defensible stance.


EDIT: A lack of exposure might explain their position, but it does not justify it.

WOW, talk about taking a point so far over the top that you have to ask yourself: "are you even talking about the same thing?"

Here, I'll point out where you went overboard:
"If a parent sees a walking toward something that looks like a deep pit with daggers at the bottom they don't wait to examine it, make sure it's actually a pit and then ban their child from it. Any parent pulls their child away from it, then researches. Their response was completely rational."

If they research it, it isn't an "intolerant, bigoted or otherwise ignorant individual", but the parent is allowed a knee jerk reaction to keep their child from harm.

[Telonius]

Okay, let's pull this back a moment... and try to figure out WHY it is that the parents might think D&D is a lot like real-life witchcraft.

Well, there are arcane spellcasters and divine spellcasters in -almost- any D&D game. Arcane spellcasters get their powers from some source other than "the gods." They cast their spells (another requirement for something to be called witchcraft) by doing some specific chant or movement, and in many cases use the spells to affect another being (whether it's an orc or a human or a whatever).

I think we can all agree on the above, right?

[Alchemistmerlin]

Okay, let's pull this back a moment... and try to figure out WHY it is that the parents might think D&D is a lot like real-life witchcraft.

Well, there are arcane spellcasters and divine spellcasters in -almost- any D&D game. Arcane spellcasters get their powers from some source other than "the gods." They cast their spells (another requirement for something to be called witchcraft) by doing some specific chant or movement, and in many cases use the spells to affect another being (whether it's an orc or a human or a whatever).

I think we can all agree on the above, right?


BURN THE WITCH! BURN!!!

Quick, throw him in the river, if he floats he's a witch and we should kill him, if he sinks and drowns we can let him live! That's the way God would want it!

[Wolf53226]

Believing--without any research into the matter--that your child's game is going to lead them to "witchcraft" is completely unjustifiable. "Cultist [insert name of game here] players"? Doesn't that sound a little... paranoid to you?
Rational people don't need a reason to believe something isn't the work of cultist game-players, they need a reason to believe something is.
And NO, "I heard somewhere..." isn't a good reason.

So, your telling me, that if you had kids, and they were doing a something that might be dangerous to them, you won't immediately tell them to stop till you can look into it more? This isn't meant as an insult, but I can tell your not a parent. I have 2 kids, and trust me, when I see them doing something that I think is dangerous, I WILL stop them till I understand it more, and I think most parents will agree with my side.

[Azrael]

Voice of the Wampinator: Simmer down there, pepperpots.

See? Wampa knows how to make good food. Simmering. Peppers. Yummm. We'd recruit him if he wasn't already made so powerful and un-corruptable by the Magic of Mod

[This is not, in any way meant to mock or disrespect the big red message telling us to behave]

[Telonius]

BURN THE WITCH! BURN!!!

Quick, throw him in the river, if he floats he's a witch and we should kill him, if he sinks and drowns we can let him live! That's the way God would want it!
I'll take that as an agreement. ;)

[Alchemistmerlin]

So, your telling me, that if you had kids, and they were doing a something that might be dangerous to them, you won't immediately tell them to stop till you can look into it more? This isn't meant as an insult, but I can tell your not a parent. I have 2 kids, and trust me, when I see them doing something that I think is dangerous, I WILL stop them till I understand it more, and I think most parents will agree with my side.


Wolf, I'm officially accusing you of witchcraft. You put a hex on me with your eeeeeeeeeeeeevil dee twelves and now my crops won't grow! My next door neighbor who I've known for years and I can identify as a just man agrees with me, and saw you rolling you eeeeeeeeevil dee twelves in the woods last week over a bubbling cauldron.

What have ye to say in defense?




I'll take that as an agreement. ;)




I'm accusing you too, you were with him...

And no this has NOTHING to do with the fact that the two of you own prime realestate that I want...

[Wolf53226]

I am evil! There is no defense. And I am corrupting the youth of the nation! Mwhahahahaha ;D

[Were-Sandwich]

I'm gettiung a feeling that by the time I come back tomorrow morning, this thread will be locked.

[The_Logic_Ninja]

So, your telling me, that if you had kids, and they were doing a something that might be dangerous to them, you won't immediately tell them to stop till you can look into it more? This isn't meant as an insult, but I can tell your not a parent. I have 2 kids, and trust me, when I see them doing something that I think is dangerous, I WILL stop them till I understand it more, and I think most parents will agree with my side.

I'm telling you that I'm rational enough to be able to tell when something is and isn't immediately dangerous. There is no way a game can stab them in the face. Stopping kids playing D&D because it leads to teh Evil Witchcraft™ is roughly analogous to taking toy soldiers away from your daughter or dolls away from your son so they don't catch The Gay™, not to a child running out onto a pit of daggers.
If someone isn't rational enough to make that distinction, well, they're probably not rational enough to make a very good parent.

When I have kids, if they play, oh, Halo 15, and I hear a CyberFox News piece,"Halo 15: game... or MENACE?!" I'm not gonna rush home to rip the quantum battery out of my kids' X-Box 3600. Because I'm not paranoid and totally irrational.

We are not talking about ANY sign of ANY kind of clear or immediate danger here. You're really saying that it's rational to think D&D is so harmful there's no time for research, it must be stopped at once? In any circumstances?

[WampaX]

I am evil! There is no defense. And I am corrupting the youth of the nation! Mwhahahahaha ;D

I believe the correct defense is "d12? I have never rolled a d12 in my life, sir. I am no Barbarian nor have a greataxe written upon my character sheet."

[belboz]

So, your telling me, that if you had kids, and they were doing a something that might be dangerous to them, you won't immediately tell them to stop till you can look into it more? This isn't meant as an insult, but I can tell your not a parent. I have 2 kids, and trust me, when I see them doing something that I think is dangerous, I WILL stop them till I understand it more, and I think most parents will agree with my side.

Honestly (and I do have kids, or at least, one kid, although admittedly he's still too young to get into any real trouble), it would depend on the nature of the possible danger. If I think there's an immediate threat of physical danger (my kid's playing with something that may or may not be a choking hazard, for example), then yes--I'll stop it first, then do the research, and finally allow it to go on only *after* I've verified that it's OK.

But if I thought that there was a *chance*--not a certainty or even a likelihood, mind you, just that I wasn't sure--that something might have, say, an insidious effect on my kid's value system? (I assume that's what most anti-RPG parents are worried about.) Acting first and asking questions later would itself teach my child a value of which I don't approve, so I'd avoid it. I'd research what they were doing and form a well-thought-out opinion of it *before* taking any action. It's not going to suddenly do irreperable harm (even if I don't know yet that it won't gradually do harm), so there's time to do the the open-minded and tolerant thing (and those are values I want to teach) and to take a good look at it before making a judgment.

[Edit: BTW, even in the first case--if my kid was old enough to understand, I'd make it clear that that's what I *was* doing. If they were old enough to participate (and 18 is *certainly* old enough, by at least 5 years, probably more) I'd actually involve them in the investigation; I'd ask them about it, and talk to them about opposing evidence I found. Doesn't mean my decision wouldn't be final, but I'd consider their input, among other things. Actually, at 18, my decision *wouldn't* be final any more; an 18-year-old is an adult.]

[Thomas]

So much for not mentioning religion, or not blatantly attacking nearly every Christian religion.

No one I know, Christians included, believes that the Devil is some kind of boogeyman, and they certainly don't believe in magic and witchcraft.

Irrational people who believe in the supernatural deserve skeptical criticism.

I don't see how it was an attack, since I was establishing the usual (almost universal) assumptions behind the "D&D is witchcraft" misconception. A tiny, irrational, illogical minority of various religious groups believes in witchcraft, and belief that D&D is witchcraft almost certainly necessiates belonging to these groups. (Why do you interpret it as having to do only with Christianity? Never heard of other religions with a the God-Devil contrast?)

[Telonius]

Anyway, given that stuff, I'd have a few suggestions that might make this more agreeable to your parents.

1. No such thing as "arcane" magic. It's a special subset of divine magic granted by Boccob.

2. If the parents have an issue with the multiple gods thing, no problem. Just make it a single God and that one grants all the domains.

Those things are fluff-only, and will alter the gameplay by exactly Zero.

Two other suggestions that might affect the game, but shouldn't be too problematic:

3. Good only campaign.

4. No summoning evil creatures.

[Alchemistmerlin]

I believe the correct defense is "d12? I have never rolled a d12 in my life, sir. I am no Barbarian nor have a greataxe written upon my character sheet."


I accuse you as well WampaX! You posted in one of my threads, and suddenly a magical force prevented anyone else from ever posting in it again. You killed my darling thread with your viiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiile magic!

[Thomas]

Anyway, given that stuff, I'd have a few suggestions that might make this more agreeable to your parents.

Yes, capitulate to the irrational demands of the misinformed.

None of those suggestions will even have any effect, since the parents certainly aren't participating in the game, and won't be aware of any of that. At the most, they'll look at the books, and you sure as heck won't be able to remove those elements from the books.

[Alchemistmerlin]

Yes, capitulate to the irrational demands of the misinformed.

None of those suggestions will even have any effect, since the parents certainly aren't participating in the game, and won't be aware of any of that. At the most, they'll look at the books, and you sure as heck won't be able to remove those elements from the books.


And if they burn any of the books, start burning thier stuff. See how dad likes it when you burn his wallet ;D

[Azrael]

DnD & Wolf: You're both looking at a very specific instance, in this case a knee-jerk reaction of sorts. Fair enough. Protect from harm, research later. I have no argument here.

But keep in mind that the OP's parents have shown no volition to actually perform that research. They are relying on their own child to prove the point to them.

I was pointing out - in a blunt and purposefully hyperbolic fashion - that this behavior is a slippery slope. If I were to claim that I disliked all New Yorkers because I hear that A-Rod was an A-Hole and the laid the burden of proof on you to demonstrate otherwise then I would certainly fall into one of those nasty words I used earlier -- ignorance.

If I were to say this about a race or nationality or gender, my quirky example would start to turn heads. And words like bigot would arise.


EDIT:
But if I thought that there was a *chance*--not a certainty or even a likelihood, mind you, just that I wasn't sure--that something might have, say, an insidious effect on my kid's value system? (I assume that's what most anti-RPG parents are worried about.) Acting first and asking questions later would itself teach my child a value of which I don't approve, so I'd avoid it. I'd research what they were doing and form a well-thought-out opinion of it *before* taking any action. It's not going to suddenly do irreperable harm (even if I don't know yet that it won't gradually do harm), so there's time to do the the open-minded and tolerant thing (and those are values I want to teach) and to take a good look at it before making a judgment.
Well said, I tip my hat to you.

[TSGames]

No. No, it wasn't. You're telling me it's rational to believe something is evil just because you heard it somewhere, and then believe that any arguments to the contrary are the work of cultists? That's not "rational", that's "blind and paranoid".
He's not a four-year-old running out onto the freeway, he's an eighteen year old child playing a game. No rational person could believe there is any danger so immediate you can't afford a little, well, *information*.

NO! Not just somewhere, rather everywhere. I will agree that if they do reject evidence to the contrary they are being completely irrational, but as of yet they have not presented with any. In addittion, for non-D&D players that aren't paticularly good researchers(most of the American population) it can be extremely difficult to find any remotely credible information on the topic. ALso, just because he's old enough doesn't mean his parents don't have a right to worry.


If you randomly heart somewhere that breaking your child's arm at midnight would prevent them from being affected by the Heebie-Jeebie Curse, would you do it, or maybe look into it a little?

If you randomly hear somewhere, you disregard it, but the fact is that D&D is genuinely regard ubiquitously by the media as a bad thing in America and is normally associated with Satanism and witchcraft.




No, I'm really not. They're not "as anti-D&D as every 2nd and 3rd person".

The average person's opinion of D&D is, "D&D? What's that?" or "D&D? That's a game for nerds and losers."

Maybe where you're from, but it's been my experience that D&D is generally associated with cultists. Then again, I am in the bible belt, so people would have a slight tendency to view what they consider occult as evil. And certainly most anyone who's even heard mention of D&D, and is not an active player does think evil of it.

Here's one of the first articles on google news(the one's prior are all about D&D on-line, which may be a good selling point to parents)
http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060801/NEWS01/608010340/1002/NEWS

Imagine, D&D related terrorism.

It's the fact that stories like that one are common; that keeps D&D in the shadows as something that should resonably be feared. Would you want your kids doing that?



According to the original post, they "are against the whole concept of magic" and "claim it is too much like real life witchcraft". That's pretty far out there.
I'm sure they're very loving and caring parents. But based on the information we're given, it's very unlikely that they're going to be rational and logical about this.

It's not that far out there to be sceptical of something that you have heard nothing positive about. Is there scepticism a little of the top and compelety misguided and without evidence or rational to back it up? Yes, but their initial reaction was the reaction of loving and caring parents, and ruthlessly assaulting religion, or them in this thread was not an acceptable solution to the problem.

[WampaX]

Voice of the Wampinator: Okay. Upon futher review, this thread is locked. This topic contains some pretty volatile substances and needs to be contained before it spreads any farther.

[TSGames]

I'm telling you that I'm rational enough to be able to tell when something is and isn't immediately dangerous.
This explains all. From now on, I DnDestruction am rational enough to be able to tell when something is and isn't immediately dangerous and therefore anyone who disagrees with me from now is wrong and must face my greataxe of slaying people mentally inferior which will now be declared as "everyone".

I think that covers the whole position. You're absolutely right TLN I offer my head on a silver platter, it was wrong for his parents to love him or be conerned for his well being, and trying to protect their child was a mistake.

[Alchemistmerlin]

In addittion, for non-D&D players that aren't paticularly good researchers(most of the American population) it can be extremely difficult to find any remotely credible information on the topic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_and_Dragons

Man that was some hard research. Took me like...18 key strokes and 2 clicks.

[Jayngfet]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_and_Dragons

Man that was some hard research. Took me like...18 key strokes and 2 clicks.

gonna assume he ment in the 80's

[Nerd-o-rama]

FOUL NECROMANCY!

[Hawriel]

My advice is buy a players guide and tell them to read it. If they do not confront them about it. nicely. if they fear wich craft and think D&D is witch craft chalenge them on it and take them to the library and check out some books on the wicken religion. wyle doing this rent any of a number of KING ARTHOR movies and watch it with your family. Im suprised no one mentioned the poster boy for D&D on the first paige. Basicly chalange their fears through rational resurch. Unless they truely believe in Pat Robertsion and Jack Vanipie in which case...keep your books at a friends house and say gaming day is movie night with your pals.

[Tengu]

Good advice, Hawriel, but look at the dates. You are almost two years too late.

[Darkxarth]

How do these threads get revived? This one is more than a year old! Does no one read the date in the top left corner before they decide to post? In any event, a mod should be along shortly to lock the thread and let it die for good.

[Hawriel]

well hell I just assumed that it was new because it was neer the top of the list. I didnt realise untill after I posted and started reading other posts that I skipped over. I usualy skip posts when they are off topic.

[Roland St. Jude]

:smallsmile: Sheriff of Moddingham: Another kindly attempt at helping another poster comes a mere year too late.

Please don't commit Thread Necromancy. Thanks.