Attack Bonus at 6th level?

[Samm]

I'm playing a 6th level melee character in a real life campaign, with relatively low optimisation.

The issue is that no members of the party seem able to regularly land good hits on their NPC opponents. It should be noted that we don't lose combat, we still win, it's just the enemy don't really hit us either and have very low health. I would like to know what I should aim to have my attack bonus above.

My attack bonus is currently +12/+7 without buffs and it's the highest in the party. Is it an issue with the ACs of the enemy NPCs or with my attack bonus?

[Eldariel]

+6 from non-BAB sources on level 6 is...fine. It could be higher but it doesn't really need to be for hitting. You should be looking at rather good Hit Chance against most creatures (~70% with first attack), with about 50% or a bit under against Humanoids equipped for similar level.

And yes, there are of course ways you could improve your To Hit at this point but I wager that isn't really the point of this thread.

[Flickerdart]

+6 is easy, even without op-fu. Masterwork weapon, an 18 in Strength and Weapon Focus gets a net +6 bonus, and that's before any serious spending.

[Curmudgeon]

A lot of creatures with appropriate challenge rating for your level 6 group will have ACs in the 20-24 range. If the DM has selected for higher ACs at that CR then they'll be either low in HP or in attack bonus. This looks like what's going on in your case.

[Samm]

+6 from non-BAB sources on level 6 is...fine. It could be higher but it doesn't really need to be for hitting. You should be looking at rather good Hit Chance against most creatures (~70% with first attack), with about 50% or a bit under against Humanoids equipped for similar level.

However, the weird thing is, that we're missing an awful lot against the NPCs the DM has pitched against us. Of course, we roll very poorly, but even when we roll relatively well, we usually miss. In fact the Warmage who's doing ranged touch attacks is missing...


And yes, there are of course ways you could improve your To Hit at this point but I wager that isn't really the point of this thread.

Indeed there are.


+6 is easy, even without op-fu. Masterwork weapon, an 18 in Strength and Weapon Focus gets a net +6 bonus, and that's before any serious spending.

I know, it wasn't really the focus of my build, it was more about doing multiple attacks, and shield bashing, but I'm not really hitting enough so I might need to sacrifice some tricks I don't really use that much in order augment my attack bonus.

I'm wondering whether I should switch switch shield charge and shield slam for weapon focus and weapon specialisation. Conventional wisdom would tell me otherwise, but I'm not really hitting that often, and it's getting quite annoying. Although a +1 bonus would only improve my to hit chance by 5%.

I think I might just ask if I can change gear, in order to enhance strength with a magic item and watch my AC decrease.

[Flickerdart]

Nah, weapon focus sucks. Consider charging (+2 bonus to hit), magic items (a Gauntlets of Ogre Power is a +2 to your strength, so a +1 to hit) or enchanting your shield/shield spikes as a weapon. At your level you should be able to afford the Gauntlets and a +1 shield spikes.

[Eldariel]

Nah, weapon focus sucks. Consider charging (+2 bonus to hit), magic items (a Gauntlets of Ogre Power is a +2 to your strength, so a +1 to hit) or enchanting your shield/shield spikes as a weapon. At your level you should be able to afford the Gauntlets and a +1 shield spikes.

Flanking, High Ground, Tripping (Prone) and company are also of interest. Most feats that are worth it require further investment or are only usable X times per day (this mostly covers like Law Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, etc.). Though Melee Weapon Mastery is a decent feat if you have a large number of attacks.

[Delwugor]

Off the top of my head it sound like ACs are pretty high or just bad luck with attack rolls.
Things to try is group positioning to take advantage of flanking and AoO.
Also with 2 attacks position yourself so you don't have to move as often, that second attack can often succeed more than the higher first attack.
Use different tactics and abilities such as trips, grappling and feints.
Combine attacks with characters that compliment each other, synergistic attacks can give a good advantage.
Target high AC opponents with touch and ranged touch attacks.
Buffs of course will help.

[Eldariel]

Off the top of my head it sound like ACs are pretty high or just bad luck with attack rolls.

The thing here is, they're NPCs. NPCs generally use gear; even just 12 Dex + full plate + heavy shield with no enhancements is 21 AC and easily available by this point. In general, humanoids tend to have higher AC than monsters.

[ericgrau]

Yeup 12 is right on the money if you don't have splatbooks and are using normal stats (rolled or other ~16 high on average): http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8888663&postcount=15

Eh weapon focus is perhaps the best martial feat in core, yet made obsolete by a couple dozen splat book feats. Depends what kind of group he's in. Hitting is good, and 1 AB on full BAB is typically 7% more of them. On poor old med BAB it's 10% more hits. Most core feats are about half as useful; power attack often less without splatbooks due to AB penalty. EDIT: here are the power attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87339) tables to prove it so I don't waste my time on further response on a dead horse.

NPCs actually tend to have unusually low AC compared to monsters b/c their AC is so gear dependent and they have less WBL. But at lower levels the opposite is true. The average monster should have 17 AC about now whereas it's easy for an NPC to beat that and then some. So... if the OP is fighting NPCs he's actually in the rogue's shoes so that weapon focus is worth 10% more hits (roll of ~11 hits => roll of 10 hits), and the poor rogue needs it desperately for 20% more hits (roll of ~16 hits => roll of 15 hits). Or really the rogue needs to roll a new character or stick to trapfinding until AC normalizes again.

[Eldariel]

NPCs actually tend to have unusually low AC compared to monsters b/c their AC is so gear dependent and they have less WBL. But at lower levels the opposite is true. The average monster should have 17 AC about now whereas it's easy for an NPC to beat that and then some.

Yeah, I meant early on. When NPCs can afford Plates, their AC reaches a plateau for a while and stays there for a good duration. Later on it sorta peters out as PC Armor Class gets more expensive with the exponentially increasing prices of the enhancement bonuses to the 4 main AC sources.

[Samm]

Nah, weapon focus sucks. Consider charging (+2 bonus to hit), magic items (a Gauntlets of Ogre Power is a +2 to your strength, so a +1 to hit) or enchanting your shield/shield spikes as a weapon. At your level you should be able to afford the Gauntlets and a +1 shield spikes.

Yeah, thought so. Okay, Gauntlets of Ogre power? 4000 gp? I've already sorted out my items, so that's going to result in me having to trade something away, most likely the +1ness of my weapon and my cloak of resistance, or the +2ness of my armour. I think the former is more worthwhile.

And when it comes to shield spikes, I've got a bashing shield, I'm wondering if the extra damage from the spikes stack with the extra damage from the bashing enhancement.


Flanking, High Ground, Tripping (Prone) and company are also of interest. Most feats that are worth it require further investment or are only usable X times per day (this mostly covers like Law Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, etc.). Though Melee Weapon Mastery is a decent feat if you have a large number of attacks.

Maybe switch shield charge and shield slam for improved trip and evasive reflexes or close quarters combat or something?


Off the top of my head it sound like ACs are pretty high or just bad luck with attack rolls.
Things to try is group positioning to take advantage of flanking and AoO.
Also with 2 attacks position yourself so you don't have to move as often, that second attack can often succeed more than the higher first attack.
Use different tactics and abilities such as trips, grappling and feints.
Combine attacks with characters that compliment each other, synergistic attacks can give a good advantage.
Target high AC opponents with touch and ranged touch attacks.
Buffs of course will help.

I think it's quite probably both. And flanking is a little hard when you only have 3 guys. I think I might try to stun opponents with my shield slam so that the other guys have a boon on him...

[ericgrau]

Yeah, I meant early on. When NPCs can afford Plates, their AC reaches a plateau for a while and stays there for a good duration. Later on it sorta peters out as PC Armor Class gets more expensive with the exponentially increasing prices of the enhancement bonuses to the 4 main AC sources.

Well the flipside to that is they're getting full plate or better for treasure and will break WBL pretty soon. Then the first thing they should use that for are the 3-4 +1 AC boosters so they don't get hit either followed by ability score boosts so they start to hit a little bit more.

Btw get gauntlets of ogre power AND weapon focus. Stacking ftw. 4,000 gp isn't cheap at this level (unless WBL already broke) and 16,000 gp is way over the top.

[Samm]

Well the flipside to that is they're getting full plate or better for treasure and will break WBL pretty soon. Then the first thing they should use that for are the 3-4 +1 AC boosters so they don't get hit either followed by ability score boosts so they start to hit a little bit more.

Well, my AC is already 24, and the other melee guy is 23.

[ericgrau]

Checks tables (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8888911&postcount=20). Yeah drop the armor to +1 (tables include shield, i.e., 1+1=2) and the cloak and/or weapon is likewise ditchable in favor of the gauntlets. In fact when you do bump AC the next source should be a ring of protection or amulet of natural armor, since they're cheaper than the upgrade.

[Veyr]

Eh weapon focus is perhaps the best martial feat in core
No, no it isn't. I might end up taking it in a PHB-only game due to lack of options (though I would refuse outright to play a PHB-only game so the point is moot), but it would only come after Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, and Leadership. Depending on the character, Quick Draw, the TWF line, and possibly Cleave/Great Cleave would still come before Weapon Focus.

On the ranged side, Point-blank Shot, Precise Shot, Imp. Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, and Manyshot are all absolutely taken before Weapon Focus.

So yeah, basically... Weapon Focus is probably, at best, my fifth choice in Core. And it's not good enough to be worth the Fighter levels, either; I'd probably take at most 2 levels of Fighter, and less if I could afford it. As a result, most PHB-only games as a purely-mundane character, I would not take Weapon Focus.

[Samm]

Checks tables (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8888911&postcount=20). Yeah drop the armor to +1 (tables include shield, i.e., 1+1=2) and the cloak and/or weapon is likewise ditchable in favor of the gauntlets. In fact when you do bump AC the next source should be a ring of protection or amulet of natural armor, since they're cheaper than the upgrade.

I'll just drop the armour a bit and get those gauntlets..., I'll have to ask the DM first though.

[NineThePuma]

What SORT of monsters are you running into though?

Yeah, if your enemy is a bunch of ogres, there's an issue.

If your enemy is a bunch of super elite militia with tower shields, decent armor, DESIGNED to be defensive, serving a cabal of wizards who are destabilizing your war torn nation... well, I would assume that you're going to want to start chucking flasks of acid and alchemists fire.

Maybe go for Sundering?

[Firechanter]

I dunno, the Attack bonus _is_ fine for a level 6; even a bit on the high side if you don't even have Weapon Focus or Str gear yet. It would help if you explained how your current AB is composed.

Don't trade in your +1 weapon, especially not to get a +2 Str belt. These two have the same effect, +1 to attack and damage, and the weapon is cheaper than the belt.

[Runestar]

Maybe look to debuffs to lower their AC? Or buffs to improve your attack rating?

For example, glitterdust blinds enemies, denying them dex to AC and granting you an additional +2 to hit.

[Runestar]

Ignore-double post

[Samm]

What SORT of monsters are you running into though?

Yeah, if your enemy is a bunch of ogres, there's an issue.

If your enemy is a bunch of super elite militia with tower shields, decent armor, DESIGNED to be defensive, serving a cabal of wizards who are destabilizing your war torn nation... well, I would assume that you're going to want to start chucking flasks of acid and alchemists fire.

Maybe go for Sundering?

Basically the later. I suppose it's justified if we have trouble hitting them.


I dunno, the Attack bonus _is_ fine for a level 6; even a bit on the high side if you don't even have Weapon Focus or Str gear yet. It would help if you explained how your current AB is composed.

Don't trade in your +1 weapon, especially not to get a +2 Str belt. These two have the same effect, +1 to attack and damage, and the weapon is cheaper than the belt.

I wont.

As for the composition of attack bonus it is:

+3 from Str, +1 Magic Weapon +6 BAB + 2 Class feature.


Maybe look to debuffs to lower their AC? Or buffs to improve your attack rating?

For example, glitterdust blinds enemies, denying them dex to AC and granting you an additional +2 to hit.

Hmm...

[Firechanter]

The long and short of it is that your attack bonus is fine. No further optimization should be necessary. If you have trouble hitting stuff and it's not due to your miserable luck, blame your DM.
Encounters at this level shouldn't _all_ be so hard to hit. Sure, sometimes you get a "tough nut" and that's fine, but if every single nose-picking militiaman is clad in full plate and parries like Nikolai Novosjolov, I call shenanigans.

Can you confirm some typical ACs your opponents tend to have?

[Diarmuid]

I'm also guessing there may be some lack of rules underatanding or just general DM fudging if the Sorc is also missing with his Ranged Touch attacks on decent rolls. Even without Precise Shot, the -4 should be less than most of those NPC types armor bonuses.

[NineThePuma]

Unless they're using their tower shields as cover.

[Samm]

The long and short of it is that your attack bonus is fine. No further optimization should be necessary. If you have trouble hitting stuff and it's not due to your miserable luck, blame your DM.
Encounters at this level shouldn't _all_ be so hard to hit. Sure, sometimes you get a "tough nut" and that's fine, but if every single nose-picking militiaman is clad in full plate and parries like Nikolai Novosjolov, I call shenanigans.

Can you confirm some typical ACs your opponents tend to have?

Well, we've only been in 2 encounters... and they were against pretty tough nuts, and I guess the DM did provide IC jusitification for our opponents being rather hard to hit. We will hopefully run into easier to hit guys in the future, and I have discussed this with the DM, so it's likely that this issue will not last.

I think some of them are around 20-24, but again, I've only been in 2 encounters. I think both of them might be "tough nuts", as you call it.


I'm also guessing there may be some lack of rules underatanding or just general DM fudging if the Sorc is also missing with his Ranged Touch attacks on decent rolls. Even without Precise Shot, the -4 should be less than most of those NPC types armor bonuses.

Though, to be honest, the warmage was up against guys who were quite agile (they wore no armour but still had high ACs), and rolled poorly.

[DwarfFighter]

Flanking, High Ground, Tripping (Prone) and company are also of interest. Most feats that are worth it require further investment or are only usable X times per day (this mostly covers like Law Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, etc.). Though Melee Weapon Mastery is a decent feat if you have a large number of attacks.

Indeed. If you have trouble hitting with your main attack (+12), then you are pretty much wasting your time trying to deal damage with the secondary attack (+7). Shield bash makes this even worse due to the two-weapon fighting penalties.

However, you can get ahead by playing smart. You should be able to squeeze a few more bonuses out of the game by using simple tactics:

+2 Charging
+2 Flanking
+1 Higher ground (e.g. a table, stairs)
+2 Aid Another

Getting these bonuses requires teamwork! You may need a team captain that knows how to balance the individual player's desire to do cool stuff against the need to get the job done as a team. The Fighter needs to get into a position where the rogue can get his sneak attack, and the rogue needs to block the enemy so the fighter can get his full attack. The cleric needs to be in a position to keep the rogue and fighter alive, and the wizard needs to lay down the hurt on the minor enemies.

-DF

[Diarmuid]

Well, we've only been in 2 encounters... and they were against pretty tough nuts, and I guess the DM did provide IC jusitification for our opponents being rather hard to hit. We will hopefully run into easier to hit guys in the future, and I have discussed this with the DM, so it's likely that this issue will not last.

I think some of them are around 20-24, but again, I've only been in 2 encounters. I think both of them might be "tough nuts", as you call it.



Though, to be honest, the warmage was up against guys who were quite agile (they wore no armour but still had high ACs), and rolled poorly.

OK, well in all honesty your OP made it sound like this was an ongoing problem in a long running campaign, not a couple of encounters. Nor did you mention that the warmage was fighting different mooks than the highly armored ones you were describing.

[McSmack]

Convince your warmage to target the heavily armored foes. Typically as a blaster that'll get you get most bang for your buck.

Your attack bonus is fine, and these encounters might not be typical of the campaign as a whole. I'd use tactics to squeeze a few more bonuses out of things (charge, flanking, etc) and give it a few more sessions. If it looks like this trend is going to continue for a bit, you might look into adjusting some more.

[Samm]

Indeed. If you have trouble hitting with your main attack (+12), then you are pretty much wasting your time trying to deal damage with the secondary attack (+7). Shield bash makes this even worse due to the two-weapon fighting penalties.

However, you can get ahead by playing smart. You should be able to squeeze a few more bonuses out of the game by using simple tactics:

+2 Charging
+2 Flanking
+1 Higher ground (e.g. a table, stairs)
+2 Aid Another

Getting these bonuses requires teamwork! You may need a team captain that knows how to balance the individual player's desire to do cool stuff against the need to get the job done as a team. The Fighter needs to get into a position where the rogue can get his sneak attack, and the rogue needs to block the enemy so the fighter can get his full attack. The cleric needs to be in a position to keep the rogue and fighter alive, and the wizard needs to lay down the hurt on the minor enemies.

-DF

Yeah. I think we're just learning the importance of this.


OK, well in all honesty your OP made it sound like this was an ongoing problem in a long running campaign, not a couple of encounters. Nor did you mention that the warmage was fighting different mooks than the highly armored ones you were describing.

Good point. I think I should have mentioned that.


Convince your warmage to target the heavily armored foes. Typically as a blaster that'll get you get most bang for your buck.

I'll have to try that.

[Flickerdart]

The problem with Aid Another is that you're using up an action for a small bonus to someone else's. It's only worth it if you can't hit at all, or if your hit would do considerably less damage than the one you're aiding.

[Eldariel]

The problem with Aid Another is that you're using up an action for a small bonus to someone else's. It's only worth it if you can't hit at all, or if your hit would do considerably less damage than the one you're aiding.

It's mostly an action for mages who don't want to waste a spell and wouldn't contribute a whole lot with Crossbow, and lower level aides (especially Nanobots).