Evocation

[SlashRunner]

I hear on these forums that evocation is a weak school. Is there any way, homebrewed or official, to remedy this? I would really like to play an evoker.

[zmasterofjersey]

The reasons why evocation is considered weak as I see it.

It does damage, and everyone else in the party does damage.

There are just better options for a wizard/sorcerer/psion etc.

But to answer your question evocation isn't bad. It's just that all it does apart from a select few spells, is does damage which as stated above anyone can do.

As for the homebrew, I really have no idea's not a good rules person, but you will get a reply soon enough, this message is probably already obsolete.

[Geigan]

Well evocation is considered weak because it basically only does one thing. Do damage. It takes some work to do any better than your typical melee charger and at that point you're making yourself incredibly focused on one idea. Homebrew may be able to work the whole master of energy thing to give you some more versatility, but I wouldn't know about that. Here's a link to the classic mailman build (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer) which uses evocation(specifically it's orb spells), to great effect. Still mainly a damage dealer though so versatility isn't at a premium.

[Koury]

Orb spells are Conjuration. And yeah, they do damage better then Evocation.

[Gamer Girl]

The problem with Evocation is that roughly half of its spells are geared solely towards blasting, and have no secondary effects that could help out. All they can do is hurt the enemy, nothing else. That 100 points of damage? Pointless, as it does nothing to stop a charging enemy, and one charge from a Leap Attacking FB means you won't get a second shot. They need a way to deter enemies outright, not just injure them. With the removal of the hit point caps, monsters now scale in HP/CR faster than damage scales per caster level, making evocation spells steadily less efficient the higher level you go.

Let's take Fireball, one of the formerly strong 3rd level spells. The fact that virtually everything and its grandmother is Fire resistant makes it very weak. The wide area and low damage output means it is very sub-optimal.

Another problem is the other schools of magic stepping in on Evocation. Abjuration has the single strongest blasting spell in the game, which makes very little sense. And then you have Transmutation and Conjuration working triple-time with spells like Black Tentacles, Disintegrate, and the Orbs.


1.The first step would be to give Evocation spells secondary effects. so that fire burns and melts things, ice spells make the ground slippery, and so forth.

2.The Evoker needs feats and abilities to counter the such that others have, such as evasion. For example:

Pervasive Evocation
Prerequisite: Spell Focus (Evocation)
Benefit: (1) Burst-type evocation spells that you cast become Spreads. (2) Cover does not provide a bonus to Reflex saves made against your evocation spells. (3) Those in the area of your evocation spells recieve no benefit from Evasion, Improved Evasion, Prescient Sense, or other similar abilities.

Devastating Evocation
Prerequisite: Spell Focus (Evocation)
Benefit: Those affected by your instantaneous evocation spells become dazzled for 1 round. Those affected by your instantaneous evocation spells of at least 4rd level are also sickened for 1 round. Those affected by your instantaneous evocation spells of at least 7th level are also entangled for 1 round.

Forceful Evocation [Metamagic]
Prerequisite: Spell Focus (Evocation)
Benefit: A Metaphysical Evocation spell gains the [Force] descriptor. Additionally, if the spell normally deals energy damage, it instead deals force damage. A Metaphysical Evocation spell takes up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.
Special: No ability of any kind can cause a Metaphysical Evocation spell to take up a lower level spell slot than one higher than the spell's actual level.

3.All the spells that are Evocation type spells, any spell that 'creates energy', that are currently in other schools, need to be moved to Evocation.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Evocation is only truly weak if you play it "as intended," blasting away. It has a few key utility spells (shatter, wind wall, and contingency come to mind in Core), but more importantly, it has quite a bit of quality battlefield control. It doesn't hold a candle to Conjuration or Transmutation, but no other school can claim otherwise. Really, as long as you don't ban Conjuration or Transmutation, it doesn't matter what you specialize in that much.

If you want a quick and dirty homebrew "fix," I'd put the Orb line (Orb of Fire, etc) into evocation.

[Jarian]

If you want a quick and dirty homebrew "fix," I'd put the Orb line (Orb of Fire, etc) into evocation.

Why something that creates a sphere of magical force (Force! Exclamation points!) was Conjuration to begin with is beyond me.

Also, disintegrate.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Why something that creates a sphere of magical force (Force! Exclamation points!) was Conjuration to begin with is beyond me.

Also, disintegrate.It was an excuse to make it SR: No, which (along with RTAs being more reliable than reflex saves), "balanced" it with Fireball and the like. Odd side note: I've been in many situations where Fireball's range, of all things, made it very useful. Many more situations than I would have expected. Maybe it's the style of the DMs where it happened...

[Coidzor]

The reasons why evocation is considered weak as I see it.

It does damage, and everyone else in the party does damage.

There are just better options for a wizard/sorcerer/psion etc.

But to answer your question evocation isn't bad. It's just that all it does apart from a select few spells, is does damage which as stated above anyone can do.

And other spell schools do as well, along with some that do damage and have saveless or save-or-X effects.

[Ernir]

I hear on these forums that evocation is a weak school. Is there any way, homebrewed or official, to remedy this? I would really like to play an evoker.
You need to give the school more good spells. And that means taking them from other schools, not making up new ones.

Yoinking the Orb line of spells (Complete Arcane/Spell Compendium) over from Conjuration over to Evocation is a very common houserule.
Taking the whole Teleportion subschool from Conjuration isn't unheard of either.

[Koury]

Why something that creates a sphere of magical force (Force! Exclamation points!) was Conjuration to begin with is beyond me.

If I had to guess, I'd say it was more "Well, there's a fire, cold, acid and electric orb. We miss anything?" and someone in the back yelled out "Don't forget force!" and no one thought about it any further then that.

[Geigan]

Orb spells are Conjuration. And yeah, they do damage better then Evocation.

Ah yes my bad. I got confused since they're on the warmage spell list.

[Zaq]

Evocation isn't awful if you have enough sources. Here's (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869246/Treantmonks_guide_to_Evocation_Spells:_Gods_tools) a pretty in-depth analysis of most of what the school has to offer. I don't agree 100% (and the formatting's gone all wonky), but it's still a good guide.

That said, it doesn't really come into its own until higher levels. Evocation's a lot better once 4ths and 5ths are on the table and it starts getting a lot of the more interesting effects. Before that? Yeah, pretty weaksauce compared to just about any other school.

I've said it before, though, and I'll say it again. Evokers are still, fundamentally, Wizards, and are therefore capable of playing with the big boys. Even banning Conjuration and Transmutation won't necessarily send you to the trash heap, even if you're going to be much weaker than you would be if you had kept them. You're still a Wizard. Play smart, and you can find a spell for what you want.

[ZombyWoof]

It does damage poorly, and everyone else in the party does damage better.
FIFY. If you want to do damage, look at the Orb Of spells: not only do they not allow a save to avoid damage, but they target touch AC and are SR: No. Oh and they're conjuration. Enjoy!

[quote\
But to answer your question evocation isn't bad. It's just that all it does apart from a select few spells, is does damage which as stated above anyone can do.
[/QUOTE]
There are a lot of very, very good Evocation spells. Wall of Force and Contingency come to mind. If you have access to a lesser rod of Empower, Scorching Ray is absurd at low levels (when you have access to 2 rays, it becomes a 3 ray spell each of which deal 6d6 damage).

[Dsurion]

I've always been a fan of giving creatures less damn hit points. It always seemed like a fairly logical choice to me when faced with "My 106 damage didn't do anything unless the creature was dropped."

I also like the idea of secondary effects to all of the energy spells. [Fire] catches things on fire, [Cold] either slows a target if single target, or blankets an area in ice if area-of-effect, Etc.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

*snip*

Honestly, my major issue with Evocation is that I lose three, maybe, maybe four spells throughout all sourcebooks that I can't get elsewhere until shadow evocation, greater kicks in several levels later. For such obscure spells, I may just blow a feat on an equally obscure feat to get three of them back.

[Popertop]

But to answer your question evocation isn't bad. It's just that all it does apart from a select few spells, is does damage which as stated above anyone can do.

The only real reason to take evocatoin is Contingency.

And that can be replicated via Greater Shadow Evocation.

Once you realize this, evocation is truly obsolete.

[Eldan]

Another problem is that almost every evocation spell tends to have three possible defences for the enemy: a touch attack or save, spell resistance, and in most cases also elemental resistance. Magic Missile is an exception.

[lightningcat]

The most effective way to fix evocation is to go through the spell list and fix the stupidity that WotC did to the spell schools. Disintegrate and the Orb line goes back into evocation, along with any other spell that would appropriately belong there. Not that most of these spells are hard to figure out.

While your at it you might as well put healing subschool back in Necromany where it belongs as well. But that is another rant all together.



The only real reason to take evocatoin is Contingency.

And that can be replicated via Greater Shadow Evocation.

Once you realize this, evocation is truly obsolete.


Unless my memory is truely faulty, you automatically see through your own illusions unless otherwise stated in the spell discription. If this is the case, then a shadow evocation: contingency is worthless.

[Provengreil]

Shadow Evocation-> contingency might work if you consider that you can voluntarily fail most anything.

And this is hardly a fix, but a decent first step is allowing the missile storm spells from NWN 1 in. d6+1/CL, no save, not attack roll. force damage. first one was capped at 15, can't remember if the second one was capped at all. in general, if you can find more ways to use force spells you can do better since that takes most resistances, damage reductions, miss chances, etc. out of the equation. I would also agree with slipping disintegrate and the orbs back into the evocation spell list.

another trick, though this one only works from the DM side of the table, is to field lots of monsters with tricky DRs but lower health. the melee people take the same amount of time to kill it, but the blasters are more effective, still solving the encounter with only a couple spells, this time they're just more inherently impressive, which appeals to some players.

[Tyndmyr]

It was an excuse to make it SR: No, which (along with RTAs being more reliable than reflex saves), "balanced" it with Fireball and the like. Odd side note: I've been in many situations where Fireball's range, of all things, made it very useful. Many more situations than I would have expected. Maybe it's the style of the DMs where it happened...

I would agree. Fireball is a solid choice for the level. There are similar things you can use from other schools to replicate it, but all have significant tradeoffs. Sometimes, making people burn is an entirely valid option.

Evocation is much less bad than people make it out to be.

[Provengreil]

Evocation is much less bad than people make it out to be.

technically true, but there are a few things worth mentioning. one, when much of the talk in the playground goes on about school comparisons, many of the schools are compared at high levels, at which point fireball has become completely irrelevant. there are very, very few evocation spells really worth it at the high levels, and most of the best damage dealing ones are not even evocation spells.

Two, people tend to forget that while evocation rightly deserves the classification of the heavy artillery, the way the HP system works makes it so that if you don't kill a monster, it's still running at full capacity. many effects of other combat spells reduce that monster's effectiveness, thus giving you the time to deal with them as needed while they don't hurt you as much. taken in a low level example, a lucky ray of enfeeblement can mean so much more than a magic missile that fails to kill the enemy. the small changes made early one have a sort of butterfly effect throughout the battle, marginal differences that add up to so much more than a simple chunk of HP.

Last and probably most important, it's fundamentally redunant. every class in d&d does damage, so there's very little reason to keep doing the same when there's so much other stuff you could be doing that the rest of your party can't. if the eenmy wizard has a small horde of weak goblins, which is better for the party's wizard: killing the goblins just as effectively as the great cleaving fighter, or using counterspells to keep the enemy wizard under wraps until it's four on one?

[subject42]

Abjuration has the single strongest blasting spell in the game, which makes very little sense.

Which spell is that? I've always thought conjuration was the ultimate school for blastiness.

[Ernir]

Which spell is that? I've always thought conjuration was the ultimate school for blastiness.

Maw of Chaos, Spell Compendium.

[ILM]

Which spell is that? I've always thought conjuration was the ultimate school for blastiness.
Maw of Chaos, I guess. Uncapped d6/CL damage, no save. Will save or be dazed for a round. Lasts rounds/CL. Yeah, take that Evocation.

[Veyr]

It's also a 9th level spell; before you get those, Abjuration doesn't have much (any?) blasting, so Conjuration is best for most levels.

[Tyndmyr]

technically true, but there are a few things worth mentioning. one, when much of the talk in the playground goes on about school comparisons, many of the schools are compared at high levels, at which point fireball has become completely irrelevant. there are very, very few evocation spells really worth it at the high levels, and most of the best damage dealing ones are not even evocation spells.

I find it's fairly rare in practice to only play at high levels. Sure, fireball is irrelevant at level 20. It's a level 3 spell with a 10 damage die cap. Of course. But it's a fundamentally bad way to evaluate schools. You need to look at them throughout the entire 20+ levels.

Consider illusion. The miss chances it provides are often lauded as making the school good, despite the fact that true seeing negates pretty much the entire school. It has a window of goodness before it becomes an easily countered school. Even it's highest level spells are often weak...Wierd? It's based on phantasmal killer, one of the worst SoDs out there. I'd rather use the suboptimal Meteor Swarm than that. Illusion is often overrated because people only look at the good portion, and not the bad.


Last and probably most important, it's fundamentally redunant. every class in d&d does damage, so there's very little reason to keep doing the same when there's so much other stuff you could be doing that the rest of your party can't. if the eenmy wizard has a small horde of weak goblins, which is better for the party's wizard: killing the goblins just as effectively as the great cleaving fighter, or using counterspells to keep the enemy wizard under wraps until it's four on one?

This is true, but it is a strength, not a flaw. It means your efforts inherently stack.

If you drain an enemies strength, but roll poorly...well, odds are, nobody else is doing strength damage. Basically, all you've accomplished is a debuff. You haven't hastened victory. Odds are extremely good that hp damage is done by other party members, and thus, that rough roll that failed to quite kill someone can be taken advantage of by another.

Counterspelling is something you do on the side, ideally. Otherwise, you're mostly just taking both of you out of the fight at a heavy cost in spell slots. If you don't optimize for it, it's not that good. If you do, different story. But that's merely another path, and not one that precludes using damage spells. Not always casters to counter.


Also, note that Wings of Flurry is evocation. D6/lvl, 30 ft spread from caster, hits enemies only, force damage, and has a chance to daze them for a round. Fantastic. Sure, it's a sorc spell, but that's solvable.