Sorcerer v. Warmage

[Zodiac]

While I know that the Sorcerer is much stronger than the Warmage, the limited amount of spells known drives me insane. There also doesn't seem to be any way to add extra spells to the Sorcerer's spells known list without using extra spell or dipping into Sand Shaper (which doesn't provide any spells I want anyways). On the other hand, while Warmage has a pretty crappy spell list, things like Arcane Disciple and similar feats and PrCs do a lot to increase versatility. And since my DM is generous with PrC requirements and handing out feats, the usual limitations of scarcity don't apply.

So, would it be smarter to just go for Warmage instead of Sorcerer, or is there something I am missing that would increase the Sorcerer's spells known? Third party sources are usually accepted too.

[Koury]

Mage of the Arcane Order is pretty good for people feeling chaffed under limited spells known.

PrC from either Complete Arcane or Mage, I forget.

[Mr.Bookworm]

The problem with Warmage is that to be a good blaster, you really only need a few spells. Using a Warmage is bringing along an entire auto mechanic shop to replace a tire, when you only need a small toolkit.

Sorcerers can take those few spells while disregarding the rest, and still have room left over for various utility spells. I don't know any ways of expanding the spell list off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are some.

That said, Eclectic Learning can help the Warmage a bit, and if you really want versatility, the Rainbow Warsnake is unmatched.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

There are bloodline feats in dragon magazine which add one spell known each level provided that you can't know a 'type' of spell. It's sort of like wizard specialization, but better. If your DM allows dragon mag stuff, I'd go for it. Runestaves from MiC can help you out. If your DM is being generous and allowing a custom staff, Heart of Air, Water, Earth and Fire is a very thematic combination.

[Zodiac]

Mage of the Arcane Order is pretty good for people feeling chaffed under limited spells known.

PrC from either Complete Arcane or Mage, I forget.

I did look at that PrC, but there doesn't seem to be a reason why a Sorcerer would be better with it than a souped up Warmage.


The problem with Warmage is that to be a good blaster, you really only need a few spells. Using a Warmage is bringing along an entire auto mechanic shop to replace a tire, when you only need a small toolkit.

Sorcerers can take those few spells while disregarding the rest, and still have room left over for various utility spells. I don't know any ways of expanding the spell list off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are some.

That said, Eclectic Learning can help the Warmage a bit, and if you really want versatility, the Rainbow Warsnake is unmatched.

Yeah, I'm not looking for a blaster at all, but my DM is giving a feat for every level this campaign, and it takes three Arcane Disciple feats (and domains cover a lot of useful spells) to catch up to the amount of utility spells that a Sorcerer would have. And plus Eclectic Learning helps.

And outside of Runestaffs (which my DM hates after a previous player abused them [lying about how they work, but my DM still hates them regardless]), only MotAO, Fiend-Blooded, Dracolexi, Sand Shaper and Extra Spell meaningfully increases spells known, but these PrCs work just as well for Warmage.

[FMArthur]

With abilities that expand your list of spells known, a Warmage will easily be more flexible than a Sorceror. How could they not? Flexibility is just plain outside of the purview of the Sorceror class. That's just not what they do. You're looking for a sheep in a pigpen here.

[Eldariel]

I did look at that PrC, but there doesn't seem to be a reason why a Sorcerer would be better with it than a souped up Warmage.

Because all the resources you used to soup up the Warmage are free for the Sorcerer to do whatever they please with (that is, increase versatility or power or whatever you want) while Warmage's inherent spell list basically amounts to "deal Xd6 damage to target" in various elements, shapes and forms. You can accomplish broadly the same with one spell.

They're similar. Warmage just basically knows even less spells than Sorcerer, even though the list contains more names, and has no choice in the matter. Good for a beginning player but for a player with good spell selection capability, base Sorcerer is just better. Check the following page on Web Archive when the page decides to stop failing:
http://waybackmachine.org/*/http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=616344 - it contains a compendium of ways to get extra Sorcerer spells known

[Kurald Galain]

I did look at that PrC, but there doesn't seem to be a reason why a Sorcerer would be better with it than a souped up Warmage.
Because sorcerers know a small amount of spells from their huge class list, whereas warmages know all spells from their class list - which is normally quite small, but greatly expanded by the Rainbow Serpent.

[TheCoelacanth]

Because sorcerers know a small amount of spells from their huge class list, whereas warmages know all spells from their class list - which is normally quite small, but greatly expanded by the Rainbow Serpent.

Of course, you have the problem of sucking until level 15.

[gbprime]

You can also qualify Warmage for things like Wild Soul and Dracolexi. They don't top out the huge selection that Warsnake has, but they come online quicker.

[sreservoir]

Of course, you have the problem of sucking until level 15.

11. if you're going rainbow servant, there's no point in delaying entry.

[Tvtyrant]

Or Sandshaper and the like. I like Sandshaper, it gives them lots of extra options.

[true_shinken]

Like a wise man said before me, warmage blows goats for pocket change (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869150/Warmages_Blow_Goats_For_Pocket_Change;_OR,_Why_You _Should_Play_A_Sorcerer_Instead).

[Haarkla]

So, would it be smarter to just go for Warmage instead of Sorcerer
Yes. It is usually better to go for a class that suits your playstyle and personallity.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Warmage/Rainbow Servant (preferably adapted to Phoenix instead of Couatl) is pretty good, especially if you use Versatile Spellcaster to get early access to the next higher level of spells. You could use Versatile Spellcaster and Sanctum Spell to go Human Warmage 1/ Phoenix Servant, and get access to the entire Cleric spell list at level 11.

A Dragonwrought Kobold Loredrake with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage gets +3 levels of Sorcerer spellcasting ability at level 6+, or +2 before that. He gets 5th level spells at level 7, 9th level spells at level 15.

[Kurald Galain]

Of course, you have the problem of sucking until level 15.
Well, yes. For some reason D&D forums tend to give advise for level-20 characters, even though most campaigns play in the 5-10 level range :smallbiggrin:

In other words, while Rainbow Servant works much better with a Warmage, that doesn't make Warmage on its own a better class than Sorcerer.

[sreservoir]

Well, yes. For some reason D&D forums tend to give advise for level-20 characters, even though most campaigns play in the 5-10 level range :smallbiggrin:

In other words, while Rainbow Servant works much better with a Warmage, that doesn't make Warmage on its own a better class than Sorcerer.

I prefer beguiler rainbow servants myself, since they don't suck nearly as much levels 1-10; but then, beguilers have enough nice things that they don't really need rainbow servant.

[Talya]

I was about to ask if there was a reason beguiler hadn't been mentioned yet...then someone mentioned it in the last post.

Beguiler > Warmage. I'd actually say Beguiler = Sorcerer, depending on build. (Beguiler killer gnome rivals wizard.)

[Kuulvheysoon]

Well, strictly, the warmage has it's niche. Earlier levels (until about 5ish) the warmage reigns supreme as the go-to direct damage dealer. They also have a wider variety than the sorc at those levels.

But once you start hitting level 7+... the sorc takes over. The only real advantages that the warmage gets over them is knowing a wider variety of blasting the first level you have access to spells. Well, that and actual class features, but who besides dwarven sorcs stay in sorc past level 5 anyways?

[Eldariel]

Well, strictly, the warmage has it's niche. Earlier levels (until about 5ish) the warmage reigns supreme as the go-to direct damage dealer. They also have a wider variety than the sorc at those levels.

Not really; that role is reserved for people with some damage like animal companions and people with 18 Str. On level 1, dealing damage with spells is asinine since your spells deal like 1d6 or 1d4+1 damage which is less than a bloody crossbow. Even Warmage's Edge doesn't do much unless you have Magical Christmas Land stats; the +2 helps but doesn't really rival Barbarian's 2d6+6 (let alone Frenzying Barbarian's 2 x 2d6+9).

Level 2 you're still behind actual damage dealers and only on level 3 do some extremely rare spells (Kelgore's Fire Bolt, I guess) really start dealing relevant damage. Level 4 you already have level 2 spells. Sorc can do just as much damage casting on those levels as Warmage (about 2 points less per spell, though), but he can also know a useful spell you can actually cast on these levels (Color Spray or Sleep or Grease) and be efficient. Really, damage spells don't take off until you get some caster level to put behind them (though of course, level 1 caster level dumps are doable but those peter out real quick and are only marginally efficient anyways).

[Grendus]

Warmage is kind of the red headed stepchild of primary spellcasters. Practically speaking, you only really need a few blast spells: one direct damage, one area (with Sculpt Spell, since you can apply it dynamically), one that ignores SR. Toss in an Energy Substitution or two and you're good to go. That leaves the sorcerer with a lot of extra spells for little things like Glitterdust, Grease, Summon Monster, Dispel Magic, Alter Self/Polymorph/Shapechange, etc. Warmage gets way more spells, but they're all redundant. It's also noteworthy that the warmage can't use runestaves without finding some way to get a good UMD modifier - runestaves require the spells be on your class list.

Meanwhile, the sorcerer can out blast the warmage any day of the week, and twice on sunday. With some metamagic reducer feats (some of which are sorcerer only), they can do crazy things like throw out twinned, empowered, maximized, admixed scorching rays which, depending on your cheese tolerance, can use as little as a third or fourth level slot (Metamagic School Focus, Practical Metamagic, Arcane Thesis using 0 level metamagic cheese, etc). That consumes a crapload of feats, but turns that "useless" blasting spell into a save-and-die-anyways effect. Warmage has access to enough to cause some extreme pain, but he can't cheese it up quite like the dragonblooded sorcerer.

Warmage is a great class in concept, and if you like it by all means play it. If you just want to blast things, a Sorcerer mailman build is probably going to be the best. Same number of spell slots, more SAD (pump charisma and con, with a little dex for ranged touch attacks), more metamagic reduction, more flexible spells known. Sorcerer is to warmage what wizard is to sorcerer - more powerful, more flexible, and better supported.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Sorry for not being specific, Eldariel - I was only comparing the sorc to the warmage at low levels - Of course the great-axe wielding barbarian will destroy you. But that's the ONLY thing they're good for - never in a millennia would I say that a sorc isn't better in nearly every conceivable way. They don't get nearly the breadth of SoL/support spells that the sorc has easy access to.

And Grendus, you'll notice that I specified at LOW levels - I feel that that's really the niche of warmages. In a E6 game, I have no doubt that anyone could have fun with a warmage, and feel like a valuable contributor.

Anything beyond... hell, 6/7th level the sorc will destroy the warmage. Versatility, especially, considering the warmage's spell list doesn't get expanded with every new book, like the sorc's does.

They're also an excellent 'teaching' class for new players who want to play a wizard/sorc - because they tend to take the big, flashy spells anyways.

[Warlawk]

11. if you're going rainbow servant, there's no point in delaying entry.

Never played in a game that would let that kind of cheese exist in play, and wouldn't really want to. It's not exactly valid advice for many (I would guess most) games.

[Akal Saris]

Never played in a game that would let that kind of cheese exist in play, and wouldn't really want to. It's not exactly valid advice for many (I would guess most) games.

I was thinking the same thing. The advice to take rainbow servant also assumes text over table, which while rules-correct is something nearly no DMs will allow, given how ridiculously strong having spontaneous casting of all cleric spells is, and the rule that text takes precedence over tables isn't well known either.

Warmage/Rainbow Servant seems cool in theory, but I don't think it's worthwhile for practical advice.

[Eldariel]

I was thinking the same thing. The advice to take rainbow servant also assumes text over table, which while rules-correct is something nearly no DMs will allow, given how ridiculously strong having spontaneous casting of all cleric spells is, and the rule that text takes precedence over tables isn't well known either.

Warmage/Rainbow Servant seems cool in theory, but I don't think it's worthwhile for practical advice.

Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Sacred Exorcist 1 is hilarious; you get Turning for DMM alongside the whole Cleric-list as spontaneous. And you're a Cha-based caster with DMM. :smallbiggrin:

[Fable Wright]

Interesting thought: One level dip in warmage. You know all the spells on the warmage spell list. Now go back and read the RAW for sorcerer. You may cast "any spell you know". Have fun dipping Beguiler and Dread Necromancer, as well.

Another fun thing about Sorcerer RAW: they draw spells primarily from the wizard/sorcerer spell list. There is no restriction off which spell lists they can learn from. Learn to drop heal bombs/clericzilla shenanigans without Rainbow Warsnake!

[Tyndmyr]

So, would it be smarter to just go for Warmage instead of Sorcerer, or is there something I am missing that would increase the Sorcerer's spells known? Third party sources are usually accepted too.

Ok, the warmage has a larger spell list by default, and despite common wisdom, just about every spell on it is solid. The variety of these spells does leave something to be desired, sure...but if blasting is your thing, it's great. If not, you're really better off with the sorc.

You also do get some actual class features. If you plan to PrC heavily, this is less of a factor, but compared to sorc, it's still a plus.

Traditional PrCs include a one level dip in sand shaper, giving you access to various handy spells.

MotAO(Comp Arc) is also a solid choice. For pretty much anyone that casts, actually. It's just a good PrC.

Ultimate Magus(Comp Mage, I think) is also viable. Specialist or focused specialist wizard on one side, warmage on the other(the wizard is likely banning evocation anyway). It's a solid path to having a lot of spells accessible at any one time.

Knowstones are also a wise choice(Dragon mag, similar to pearls of power, but instead they grant you a specific spell known while you possess it). I also advise the Rainment of Four(MiC), which allow you to spont convert spells to specific other spells. Useful ones, like teleport. Runestaves are another possible option.

Warmage is a lot better if you take advantage of all the ways out there to expand the number of spells available to you. And frankly, as a sorcerer, you tend to be doing this anyway. I find that in a medium op environment, they play more similarly than you might expect.

[Talya]

Interesting thought: One level dip in warmage. You know all the spells on the warmage spell list. Now go back and read the RAW for sorcerer. You may cast "any spell you know". Have fun dipping Beguiler and Dread Necromancer, as well.



Also have fun when your DM pulls out a large brick and stabs you with it.

[Eldariel]

Also have fun when your DM pulls out a large brick and stabs you with it.

I'm sure that's considered a sign of affection in some culture.

[Corolinth]

Also have fun when your DM pulls out a large brick and stabs you with it.I once proposed that smacking the offender in the mouth was the most expedient way to deal with cheese and munchkinism. People here threw a hissy fit.

[Cog]

I once proposed that smacking the offender in the mouth was the most expedient way to deal with cheese and munchkinism. People here threw a hissy fit.
Smacking somebody is less obviously a joke than stabbing somebody. Particularly a stabbing that involves a blunt object.

[Provengreil]

While I know that the Sorcerer is much stronger than the Warmage, the limited amount of spells known drives me insane. There also doesn't seem to be any way to add extra spells to the Sorcerer's spells known list without using extra spell or dipping into Sand Shaper (which doesn't provide any spells I want anyways). On the other hand, while Warmage has a pretty crappy spell list, things like Arcane Disciple and similar feats and PrCs do a lot to increase versatility. And since my DM is generous with PrC requirements and handing out feats, the usual limitations of scarcity don't apply.

So, would it be smarter to just go for Warmage instead of Sorcerer, or is there something I am missing that would increase the Sorcerer's spells known? Third party sources are usually accepted too.

off the top of my head, you can use some sort of knowledge crystal, or whatever it was called. someone here must know what I'm referring to. they basically let you know a given spell by having it in your inventory.

there are a few items that allow you to cast spells through them, there's a pair of goggles in MIC that allows for fireball, for instance. using some of those might help.

Then, you could look into the draconic bloodline feats. you'll need 5 of them; the lvl 1 heritage feat, 3 of your choice(breath, wings, and resistance are kinda nice) and then legacy adds 3 to your spells known. it's a specific 3, but you can choose a different spell if you already have some known. kinda unoptimized here, unless you're going for something dragon specific in which the feats fit the fluff while still helping, but it's your choice. and breath is particularly nice because then you have little need to take most normal damage spells; you can convert them to breath weapons for 2d6 per spell level, allowing for more nondamage selections.

that's all i know off the top of my head, but it can be done. just realize that versatility is not your strong suit, and no matter what you do there will be situations for which you find yourself in a much tighter spot than a wizard of the same level would likely be.

[valadil]

I like my sorcerers with a side of metamagic. If you can play a sorc without the full round to apply metamagic restriction, they're a lot more fun. I mention this because having metamagic choices to make effectively gives you more spells. If you can get into a good rhythm with residual metamagic you can go all day casting interesting spells and you won't feel quite so restricted as a vanilla sorcerer.

[Tyndmyr]

Also have fun when your DM pulls out a large brick and stabs you with it.

*shrug* Power wise, Im not adverse to it. One more level behind for several more spells known? Reasonable.

But I question it's legality. Spells known are class specific. I mean, both text and table in sorc reference it as "Sorcerer Spells Known". Just because you know a spell in a different class doesn't mean you automatically know it as a sorcerer.

[Qwertystop]

And outside of Runestaffs (which my DM hates after a previous player abused them [lying about how they work, but my DM still hates them regardless]), only MotAO, Fiend-Blooded, Dracolexi, Sand Shaper and Extra Spell meaningfully increases spells known, but these PrCs work just as well for Warmage.

What did he do with the Runestaffs? Did he say that they don't expend the spell slot or something?

[Tyndmyr]

What did he do with the Runestaffs? Did he say that they don't expend the spell slot or something?

Technically possible with an epic feat. See also, Dragonwrought kobold. This does tend to be high cheese for the outcome, though.

[Cog]

What did he do with the Runestaffs? Did he say that they don't expend the spell slot or something?
They only work with spells that are on your class list, so you might not be able to use, say, half the spells on a given staff, and full-list-known casters don't get any benefit from them at all.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Make a Runestaff your Item Familiar or Ancestral Relic, and you can put whatever spells you want onto it without meeting any of the prerequisites.

Take Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon. You can spend two spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher. Dip a level of Cleric or Druid, you automatically know that entire class spell list. You can now spend spell slots from your spontaneous class to cast spells from that list. You could also take the feat Magical Training (PGtF) to get a spellbook and be able to learn spells as a Wizard does, and use Versatile Spellcaster to cast those without having to dip another class.

[Fable Wright]

*shrug* Power wise, Im not adverse to it. One more level behind for several more spells known? Reasonable.

But I question it's legality. Spells known are class specific. I mean, both text and table in sorc reference it as "Sorcerer Spells Known". Just because you know a spell in a different class doesn't mean you automatically know it as a sorcerer.

Read the text, though. It says any spell you know. Not just sorcerer spells.

Also, I do agree that it's not too broken. If your DM shoots it down, consider a level dip into Sand Shaper, for the similar spells known jump and class features.

[Kuulvheysoon]

off the top of my head, you can use some sort of knowledge crystal, or whatever it was called. someone here must know what I'm referring to. they basically let you know a given spell by having it in your inventory.

The name that you're looking for is Knowstones.