Am I the only guy [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

ZombyWoof

2011-04-24, 05:13 PM

the thing is in high school most people dont get this whole concept of respecting girls so its weird
Maybe in your high school In my high school treating a girlfriend like crap was, you know, stupid. You don't randomly catcall girls unless they're your friends/girlfriends and you know they'll recognize it as humor.

Also there is nothing wrong with casual dating. If these guys just want a quick lay, that's perfectly fine. There is nothing wrong with sex and there is nothing wrong with wanting sex. In fact, I would go as far to say that it is not objectification to want to have sex with someone just because they're very attractive: that's what's called "normal human behavior." It's up to the girls to say "no" if they don't want casual sex... just like it's my job to say "no" if I don't want to have another drink. No one's holding me down and shoving a beer down my throat (that would be assault), and (I hope) no one's holding down these girls and forcing them to go out with these guys.

Does it hurt the girls? Damn I hope so! People don't learn how hot the stove is until they touch it and get burned.

Also, you have a superiority complex and you think of yourself as somehow "better" than other guys, which actually honestly makes me wonder. Most guys who white knight like you are doing here actually don't tend to have girlfriends or even friends who are girls. I honestly suggest that you grow up a bit and stop worrying so much about how these guys appear to be treating the girls around you because you probably do not know the whole story. In fact, as a general rule of thumb, being this judgmental is a bad thing.

@Grimbold, teenagers are wallowing cesspools of over-expressed hormones. They're going to act like jerks. Deal with it.

Perenelle

2011-04-24, 05:16 PM

well the guys treat girls they know with respect, but random people they dont know
its like wow...
how can you go up to a girl and say that?

I still think it's just the group of people you're around. If they're mocking you for being respectful towards girls then they're definitely not worth your time.

They're also stupid for acting like you're strange for not being a jerk.

Shyftir

2011-04-24, 05:17 PM

No.

But honestly there are three kinds of guys who objectify women.

Type 1:
Objectifies women but not so much on purpose as hormones. (Or because its cool, etc.)

Type 2:
Objectifies women, but is great at faking like they don't. (Because they've figured out that girls won't usually let you get close if they think you are the objectifying kind.)

Type 3:
Totally blatant objectifying. They are jerks and too dumb to hide it.

and then those who don't.

Type 4:
Are fully aware that women are people too, but are sometimes very nervous over their femininity. they are not objectifying just shy.

Type 5:
Have very good relationships with women without much awkwardness.

Guess which types or most common.

grimbold

2011-04-24, 05:19 PM

@Grimbold, teenagers are wallowing cesspools of over-expressed hormones. They're going to act like jerks. Deal with it.

i will remember that

i was just getting a little desperate and i needed some reassurance
i have had...
a very rough weekend

Bang!

2011-04-24, 05:20 PM

who doesnt objectify girls?
Most of the other guys I know are always objectifying girls and treating them as toys and not bothering to get to know them before dating them.
:smallconfused:
Dating can be a way to get to know someone.

Dating/not dating doesn't mean you're objectifying/getting to know a person. It just means you're dating/not dating.

ZombyWoof

2011-04-24, 05:23 PM

Honestly there are four types of guys in this world:

1) People who are jerks, but are also shy so you don't tend to notice they're jerks.

2) People who are jerks, also they are loud so you tend to notice them a lot.

3) People who are not jerks, but are very shy so you don't notice them.

4) People who are not jerks, and are not shy. But because society focuses so much on the awful aspect and because doing the right thing is so... bland... you don't notice these people either.

Honestly, read this comic (http://xkcd.com/513/) and realize that by "calling out guys and calling them all jerks on an internet forum" you don't belong to the fourth group at all. You belong to the second group.

Morph Bark

2011-04-24, 05:24 PM

Personally, I don't much have a problem with guys or girls objectifying the other sex. Outside of that, many of them are genuinely good folks anyhoo and pretty okay to be around. I have more trouble accepting people who act as if all of the other sex objectifies theirs. (This also can similarly be expanded to non-heterosexual people who follow similar lines of thought.)

EDIT: ZombyWoof, you might just also add "5. People who aren't jerks, but seem like jerks due to circumstances".

golentan

2011-04-24, 05:34 PM

Nope. I treat women with the exact same respect I give men.

Which is to say, very little by default. Misanthropy, meet feminism.

But I'm hardly going to be attracted to someone I don't respect (goes for men as well). If we can't hold a nice conversation, if I can't treat you as one of my closest friends, confide and be confided in... well, I want no part of that relationship, and am not going to get involved until I know beforehand that I can have that closeness and shared respect by virtue of existing experience.

grimbold

2011-04-24, 05:37 PM

EDIT: ZombyWoof, you might just also add "5. People who aren't jerks, but seem like jerks due to circumstances".

thank you for this
i have had the worst weekend
i was with the most misogynist person ever all weekend and my patience is being tested
i have had 6 hours of sleep in the last 3 days and i have had it with all the misogyny this weekend has brought me and i need reassurance that the world is not horrible

ZombyWoof

2011-04-24, 05:43 PM

People change :smallwink: And I think in this case I'm more trying to say "acting like" rather than "are." I don't think people really "are" anything in particular. Like, I'm not a nice guy, I just "act" nice most of the time... just like I'm sure Grimbold isn't a judgmental person, he's just "acting" judgmental here.

So pardon my wording :smallredface:

But it is an important distinction: these girls are allowed to associate or choose to not associate with these "jerks" as they choose. By ripping into their boyfriends you are disrespecting their choices. Just realize that. And that's not to say it's a bad thing: a lot of people make horrible decisions that they should not be allowed to make. It's just that you need to be very careful when you get upset about the way person A treats person B lest you become person A and make them person B.

grimbold

2011-04-24, 05:46 PM

But it is an important distinction: these girls are allowed to associate or choose to not associate with these "jerks" as they choose. By ripping into their boyfriends you are disrespecting their choices. Just realize that. And that's not to say it's a bad thing: a lot of people make horrible decisions that they should not be allowed to make. It's just that you need to be very careful when you get upset about the way person A treats person B lest you become person A and make them person B.

the thing is its not their boyfriends its just random people on the street

ZombyWoof

2011-04-24, 05:59 PM

Like... how? And don't say "they say how attractive the girls they see are" or things like that. Commenting on how attractive someone is isn't objectifying them.

grimbold

2011-04-24, 06:03 PM

Like... how? And don't say "they say how attractive the girls they see are" or things like that. Commenting on how attractive someone is isn't objectifying them.

its more like walking up to girls
and literally asking them to a one night stand just out of nowhere
or calling them a b**** or something like that

ZombyWoof

2011-04-24, 06:13 PM

its more like walking up to girls
and literally asking them to a one night stand just out of nowhere

That's not really "objectifying" or "being a jerk." There is nothing wrong with wanting to have sex with someone who is attractive.

or calling them a b**** or something like that
That's just weird. Why would they walk up to some random person and insult them? If they're insulting them when they're rejected then LOL! LOL! They're going to die alone. Let karma take over :smallamused:

Perenelle

2011-04-24, 06:16 PM

That's not really "objectifying" or "being a jerk." There is nothing wrong with wanting to have sex with someone who is attractive.

I agree, but walking up to a random person and asking if they want to have sex is rather odd... I know I would be insulted if a guy I didn't know came up and asked me something like that.

Bhu

2011-04-24, 06:22 PM

who doesnt objectify girls?
Most of the other guys I know are always objectifying girls and treating them as toys and not bothering to get to know them before dating them. They really just pick up random girls off the street. I don't do this and guys mock me. I actually end up talking to a lot of girls and as a consequence i have a lot of girls who like me for who i am (Despite my having a girlfriend). Another consequence of me actually getting to know girls is that i have girlfriends who stay with me for like 6+ months not 6 or so days.
so am i the only guy who doesn't objectify girls or am i just some sort of social freak?

You aren't alone, but you aren't necessarily common depending on where you live. Long ago when I was in high school boys were pretty much taught "Tell them what they want to hear, get in, get out before they trap you by becoming pregnant or blackmailing you into marriage." Girls were taught "No sex or even dating until you can find one who can support you for life, and then get pregnant as fast as possible."

20 some years later almost everyone in my generation is divorced, bitter, and judgemental of the opposite sex, and their parents don't understand how this is possible when they're the ones who set their kids up for failure. Even among guys in the local schools now there's a belief that women only respect you if you treat them like total crap because their moms and dads are repeating the same advice their parents gave them. It's a matter of parents responsibly educating their children about relationships, instead of passing on failed belief systems.

ZombyWoof

2011-04-24, 06:25 PM

I agree, but walking up to a random person and asking if they want to have sex is rather odd... I know I would be insulted if a guy I didn't know came up and asked me something like that.
Insulted? Really? That seems like an overreaction. Weirded out, maybe, or creeped out, but I'm curious as to why you would be insulted to find out someone thought you were attractive.

Gaelbert

2011-04-24, 06:51 PM

who doesnt objectify girls?
Most of the other guys I know are always objectifying girls and treating them as toys and not bothering to get to know them before dating them. They really just pick up random girls off the street. I don't do this and guys mock me. I actually end up talking to a lot of girls and as a consequence i have a lot of girls who like me for who i am (Despite my having a girlfriend). Another consequence of me actually getting to know girls is that i have girlfriends who stay with me for like 6+ months not 6 or so days.
so am i the only guy who doesn't objectify girls or am i just some sort of social freak?

No, you're not. And this isn't directed at you directly, but I've had some experiences recently that I feel are relevant.
A disgustingly large amount of men I know memorize feminist literature and tracts, and then use these ideas to "up their cred." As in, talking a mean game when it comes to feminism and the like in order to make then look cool. The result of this, they hope, is to seduce women who are attracted by that sort of rhetoric. Essentially, it's using feminist rhetoric to mask basic objectification (looking to "score").
Saying you oppose the objectification of women is not enough. You need to act like it, too.
Of course, by saying this, I could very well be doing the same thing I profess to detest. Talking about how some men use feminist ideas to mask basic misogyny could be my way to cover my use of feminism to mask objectification. You can't escape! Unless you're gay, I suppose.

thubby

2011-04-24, 06:54 PM

i never got the whole "getting to know them before you date them" thing. i mean, the whole point of dating is to get to know someone.

Perenelle

2011-04-24, 07:06 PM

Insulted? Really? That seems like an overreaction. Weirded out, maybe, or creeped out, but I'm curious as to why you would be insulted to find out someone thought you were attractive.

Well, I'd probably take offense... that'd just be wrong. I'd be flattered if someone came up and was like "Hi, I know you don't know who I am, but I think you're really pretty". But someone randomly coming up to me and asking to have sex would be... eww. There's a pretty big difference between the two.

Telonius

2011-04-24, 07:11 PM

ZombyWoof

2011-04-24, 07:12 PM

No, you're not. And this isn't directed at you directly, but I've had some experiences recently that I feel are relevant.
A disgustingly large amount of men I know memorize feminist literature and tracts, and then use these ideas to "up their cred." As in, talking a mean game when it comes to feminism and the like in order to make then look cool. The result of this, they hope, is to seduce women who are attracted by that sort of rhetoric. Essentially, it's using feminist rhetoric to mask basic objectification (looking to "score").
Saying you oppose the objectification of women is not enough. You need to act like it, too.
Of course, by saying this, I could very well be doing the same thing I profess to detest. Talking about how some men use feminist ideas to mask basic misogyny could be my way to cover my use of feminism to mask objectification. You can't escape! Unless you're gay, I suppose.
*SNORT*

Well women who are so easily fooled by rhetoric can't be that smart anyways. Ever seen Good Will Hunting? I like to think of myself as Will when he calls out that grad student in the bar. Girls I date should be able to pick the rhetoric out of a conversation and make fun of it.

In any case I don't care if people think of me as "misogynistic" or whatever. Those are labels slapped by people who can't handle the fact that people aren't always treated perfectly. I know that I "respect" women as much as one can (I don't respect women as a group, but I view people as people and respect people) without knowing them and the only reason I treat them any differently is if they're attractive and I want to get together with them (or if they're my friends). And that's not wrong no matter what the feminist leadership says.

EDIT:

Well, I'd probably take offense... that'd just be wrong. I'd be flattered if someone came up and was like "Hi, I know you don't know who I am, but I think you're really pretty". But someone randomly coming up to me and asking to have sex would be... eww. There's a pretty big difference between the two.
There is a difference and I'm not saying there isn't, but being offended by it seems like an odd reaction. Like I said, weirded out, creeped out, sure. Offended? That's... kind of like being offended by someone holding up a sign that says "Penniless and homeless please help."

Perenelle

2011-04-24, 07:25 PM

EDIT:

There is a difference and I'm not saying there isn't, but being offended by it seems like an odd reaction. Like I said, weirded out, creeped out, sure. Offended? That's... kind of like being offended by someone holding up a sign that says "Penniless and homeless please help."

Hmm, well, I'm not sure. That's just the reaction I think i'd have, I've never been in that situation before.
I know I would be creeped out for sure. Maybe after thinking it through i'd be less offended and more embarrassed? But I still wouldn't find it appropriate at all for random guys to come up to me and ask/suggest that.

Eruantion

2011-04-24, 07:44 PM

Felixaar

2011-04-24, 08:06 PM

Definitely a freak. Seriously, what's up with that? [/sarcasm]

No, that's good. If anything, ditch those other friends, or just ignore them.

Blue Ghost

2011-04-24, 08:22 PM

The objectification of women isn't very common in my environment, but I've seen it happen, and it sickens me to the core. After I had just finished a brief, courteous conversation with a female friend whom I had known for four years, a guy came up to me and made some comment on my "spitting aim," as if I had been hitting on her. :smallyuk:
It's disgusting, and it really should not happen. I feel for you. You are not alone.

The_JJ

2011-04-24, 09:32 PM

not bothering to get to know them before dating them.

One of the better ways to do it. Friendship into romance is a fun transition to make, but can get weird. Jumping from a. (acquaintance) to c. (uh... classy dinner?) avoids baggage, and can seem a lot less... disingenuous than pretending like the feelings are there while you 'must' work your way through b (besties).

They really just pick up random girls off the street.

And... ? Either they're good at what they do or everyone's getting what they deserve, which is less about gender views and more about people and hormones.

Or, you know, prostitution.

Sipex

2011-04-25, 12:27 PM

Grim, I had a friend who was very much like yours (whether or not yours is a friend) and I will state that it's a very rare thing to come by. Most guys aren't like that, not the jocks, not the nerds and not [insert social group x].

That said, don't let it get to you, the women he talks to all have a choice when he speaks to them and most of them are going to shut him down. If they don't then it's their choice and you just have to assume they know what they're getting into.

Take some solace that if this guy continues his ways he's not likely to have any lasting relationships and will forever bounce between women for the rest of his life (and he might be okay with that). As long as he knows what he's getting himself into and the women who actually take his proposals know what they're getting into (and there's no abuse) then you have no obligation to intervene in any way.

Now, if he complains about how he can't keep a girl? It might be time to explain things to him.

Coidzor

2011-04-25, 12:36 PM

who doesnt objectify girls?
Most of the other guys I know are always objectifying girls and treating them as toys and not bothering to get to know them before dating them. They really just pick up random girls off the street. I don't do this and guys mock me. I actually end up talking to a lot of girls and as a consequence i have a lot of girls who like me for who i am (Despite my having a girlfriend). Another consequence of me actually getting to know girls is that i have girlfriends who stay with me for like 6+ months not 6 or so days.
so am i the only guy who doesn't objectify girls or am i just some sort of social freak?

This might be some kind of localized cultural phenomenon, given your self-professed location and the stories I've heard about the general reception women have received in Paris it certainly seems possible.

I mean, given how loose a term "objectifying women" has become, you're going to run into it pretty much everywhere there are men and women, but this is definitely a rather extreme case.

Nothing wrong with being able to get a date out of a girl the first time one meets her, of course, but it's definitely no substitute for being able to actually have a conversation with one.

grimbold

2011-04-25, 12:44 PM

Trekkin

2011-04-25, 01:17 PM

My own view of it: you need to consider three axioms.

Women are objects.
Men are objects.
Neither women nor men are just objects.

I really believe all three of these are true. In my experience, if you start denying any one of them, you start to run into troubles.

This is basically my view as well. I don't know if you'd call it objectification, but I tend to view people in the same way I view compilers; they're doing their best approximation at what they should, based what they're currently considering in light of how they've been taught to think. It's why I don't get outraged at people who treat other people as accessories; it's simply what they think will get them what they want (which, in my experience, is usually inflation of their ego, at least when this occurs at a local level).

So I suppose the ubiquity of objectification depends on what you define as objectification.

Dr.Epic

2011-04-25, 01:28 PM

Is it objectifying when I treat it like an RPG?

I need to complete quest Date Night to obtain the +3 Girlfriend so I can enter the PrC Boyfriend and gain a +10 bonus to my dignity.

But then again, I treat all aspects of life like an RPG. Cleaning the dishes gets me 25 xp points. I also took favored enemy college exam. That combat bonus really comes in handy.

factotum

2011-04-25, 01:37 PM

I think how bad this is depends what you mean by "objectify". I think it's natural to notice how attractive a woman is first off...it's when you never look *beyond* her looks that there's a problem, IMHO.

Keld Denar

2011-04-25, 01:41 PM

I need to complete quest Date Night to obtain the +3 Girlfriend so I can enter the PrC Boyfriend and gain a +10 bonus to my dignity.

+3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.

Also, the Boyfriend PrC was written too early in developement. Most of it's abilities are only available per day. I suggest you add maneuver progress to it similar to Eternal Blade, selecting maneuvers from the True Heart and Compassionate Ear disciplines. This gives you more per/encounter options in case your DM makes you go on all-day date sessions with multiple encounters.

+diginity is pretty easy to optimize outside of a girlfriend though. Clothing of Sharp-Dressedness will give you a +5 circumstance bonus alone. If you spend a month or two working out with a Barbell of Strength or a Sparring Dummy of Ninja-Skillz, you can also gain an +1 to +5 insight bonus Physique, which applies when making strength based checks and allows you to apply your Str stat to most Cha based interactions in addition to your Cha.

Dr.Epic

2011-04-25, 01:48 PM

+3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.

My class won't let me have a girlfriend with Greater Magic Make-up. I prefer the Natural Look feat for my girlfriend build. Though one or two ranks in Cosmetics isn't bad for optimization.

Coidzor

2011-04-25, 02:41 PM

+3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.

But you still need a +3 Girlfriend to use the best augment crystals as a Rouge.

Also...sigged!

Keld Denar

2011-04-25, 03:20 PM

But you still need a +3 Girlfriend to use the best augment crystals as a Rouge.

Fix't...its funnier this way.

ZombyWoof

2011-04-25, 03:23 PM

*snort* this is why I love Keld so much.

Douglas

2011-04-25, 03:27 PM

Fix't...its funnier this way.
Indeed. One of the few situations on these boards where that's actually not a typo.

Asta Kask

2011-04-25, 03:34 PM

Insulted? Really? That seems like an overreaction. Weirded out, maybe, or creeped out, but I'm curious as to why you would be insulted to find out someone thought you were attractive.

Think about what he's implying. He's basically saying "Hey, you look easy. You look like my big pecs could make you throw away your panties."

Now, I know girls who like that kind of once-meet-never-again sex, but I get the feeling Perenelle isn't one of them.

AtlanteanTroll

2011-04-25, 03:37 PM

well the guys treat girls they know with respect, but random people they dont know
its like wow...
how can you go up to a girl and say that?

Eh, most guys like that say the same sort of thing to guys (not context wise, but vocalization and stuff). So it's more of the fact that they're just jerks then sexist.

Telonius

2011-04-25, 03:37 PM

My class won't let me have a girlfriend with Greater Magic Make-up. I prefer the Natural Look feat for my girlfriend build. Though one or two ranks in Cosmetics isn't bad for optimization.

Ah, judging by that class restriction, I'm guessing you're looking for early entry into the Perfect Lifemate PrC? The crunch is powerful, but the fluff requirements are pretty steep.

ZombyWoof

2011-04-25, 03:39 PM

Think about what he's implying. He's basically saying "Hey, you look easy. You look like my big pecs could make you throw away your panties."

Now, I know girls who like that kind of once-meet-never-again sex, but I get the feeling Perenelle isn't one of them.
He's not implying that you look easy. That's you putting words and feelings into his mouth. And I dislike your implication by use of the word "easy" that somehow a girl who likes sex is a bad person or something.

Asta Kask

2011-04-25, 03:44 PM

That was not my intention. What kind of sex a girl likes - a person likes - is up to that person. I really only have an issue with it when it becomes self-destructive, e.g. to shore up a faltering ego.

Mordokai

2011-04-25, 03:50 PM

Have you ever watched porn or bought a dirty magazine?

Congratulations, you've objectified women. Don't feel too bad about it, it's normal to a certain extent.

Dienekes

2011-04-25, 03:50 PM

I've never thought of myself as objectifying women, though that's largely because I more or less am uninterested in dating/scoring/ or anything of the kind really.

However, when I was in high school and part of college I was in football and a few other sports, and yes, it runs rampant there. The guys talk mostly about those they've scored with and whatnot, and never grew emotionally tied to those they dated.

Honestly, I have no problem with this really. It takes two to tango (I assume, I've never actually tangoed or seen a tango), if a girl gives it to a guy whose a jerk deep down that's her choice. If a guy is out to have sex with someone, so long as he doesn't force her into it (which is unforgivable in my eyes) let him lie or try to make the girl like him however he can. If you're worried that the guy is only interested in you for sex, don't sleep with him, easy as that. If you do sleep with a guy right away, I hope you have fun, but I'd rather not like to hear you complain once he dumps you.

Asta Kask

2011-04-25, 03:51 PM

Yeah, the answer to the question has a lot to do with what 'objectify" means.

Honestly, I have no problem with this really. It takes two to tango (I assume, I've never actually tangoed or seen a tango), if a girl gives it to a guy whose a jerk deep down that's her choice. If a guy is out to have sex with someone, so long as he doesn't force her into it (which is unforgivable in my eyes) let him lie or try to make the girl like him however he can.

Unless the girl is a friend of mine, in which case I might try to talk to her. Tell her that she doesn't have to have sex with jerks for people to like her.

ZombyWoof

2011-04-25, 03:52 PM

But it's still your heavy implication because you find the fact that someone walks up to a girl and asks for casual sex to be insulting to the girl. That's sexism right there, because that means that in your mind it's not ok for a girl to have a casual encounter because that would make her dirty.

What I'm saying is that there's no reason to be insulted at all if a guy asks you for casual sex. If you don't want to sleep with him, "No, but thank you for the offer it's very flattering" is a perfectly acceptable response.

EDIT: I loved the poster who said "Men are objects and women are objects, the key is to realize that they are not ONLY objects."

Asta Kask

2011-04-25, 03:57 PM

But it's still your heavy implication because you find the fact that someone walks up to a girl and asks for casual sex to be insulting to the girl. That's sexism right there, because that means that in your mind it's not ok for a girl to have a casual encounter because that would make her dirty.

Er, no. I'm saying that, based on my admittedly scanty knowledge of Perenelle I don't think she's the kind of girl who would enjoy it. The rest... I'm sorry, that's just not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is that there's no reason to be insulted at all if a guy asks you for casual sex. If you don't want to sleep with him, "No, but thank you for the offer it's very flattering" is a perfectly acceptable response.

That depends a lot on what you think that request implies. And a guy may have other reasons for making that request than "She's sexy."

ZombyWoof

2011-04-25, 04:00 PM

Er, no. I'm saying that, based on my admittedly scanty knowledge of Perenelle I don't think she's the kind of girl who would enjoy it. The rest... I'm sorry, that's just not what I'm saying.
Yes it is because you said it would be insulting to her to be propositioned.

Dienekes

2011-04-25, 04:04 PM

Yes it is because you said it would be insulting to her to be propositioned.

This I find pretty amusing. I wonder, from any of the girls reading this thread, if someone walked up to you and asked you "Hey baby, want no strings attached sex?" If you'd be insulted or not.

I have a feeling that if I tried that, I'd get slapped, repeatedly.

LaZodiac

2011-04-25, 04:05 PM

Have you ever watched porn or bought a dirty magazine?

Congratulations, you've objectified women. Don't feel too bad about it, it's normal to a certain extent.

But what if you watched it for the men? And what if you legitimitly enjoy the articles and that's why you buy them? Just curious.

As it stands, my opinion on this subject is "people should stop stressing out over little things".

Sipex

2011-04-25, 04:07 PM

But what if you watched it for the men? And what if you legitimitly enjoy the articles and that's why you buy them? Just curious.

As it stands, my opinion on this subject is "people should stop stressing out over little things".

I think then you'd just be objectifying men. Unsure.

Although I completely agree with you, people get too caught up with absolutes, thinking that even a smidgeon of 'bad' makes them horrible people so they can't be bad at all, right?

IE: You can't objectify people at all, you can't like casual sex at all...etc

ZombyWoof

2011-04-25, 04:17 PM

This I find pretty amusing. I wonder, from any of the girls reading this thread, if someone walked up to you and asked you "Hey baby, want no strings attached sex?" If you'd be insulted or not.

I have a feeling that if I tried that, I'd get slapped, repeatedly.
The question here in my mind isn't whether or not they are insulted but whether or not they should be insulted. I am arguing very strongly that it is not insulting to be propositioned for casual sex regardless of gender and almost regardless of situation. To say it is... well.. it's (and pardon me for linking to this FAQ because these are always over the top) (http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2010/04/04/what-is-slut-shaming/) that.

Mordokai

2011-04-25, 04:17 PM

But what if you watched it for the men? And what if you legitimitly enjoy the articles and that's why you buy them? Just curious.

As it stands, my opinion on this subject is "people should stop stressing out over little things".

Like Sipex said, you've objectified men. And that makes you a truly terrible person and you should now be ashamed of yourself :smalltongue:

But I agree with you.

I think then you'd just be objectifying men. Unsure.

Although I completely agree with you, people get too caught up with absolutes, thinking that even a smidgeon of 'bad' makes them horrible people so they can't be bad at all, right?

IE: You can't objectify people at all, you can't like casual sex at all...etc

This good man has it right.

Not necessarily you haven't. :smallwink:

You're objectifying the dead tree from which the magazine is made?

Solaris

2011-04-25, 04:18 PM

Unless the girl is a friend of mine, in which case I might try to talk to her. Tell her that she doesn't have to have sex with jerks for people to like her.
She might actually be interested in nothing but a night or three of casual sex. Females have libidos too, and they aren't all so stupid as to think that guy they met at the nightclub really wants to have a meaningful relationship with them.

golentan

2011-04-25, 04:23 PM

I'm going to fall in on "propositioning should not be considered insulting by default," but I'm going to say that it can be phrased in an insulting way.

Lets draw a comparison to poker. Some stranger invites you to a game. You might accept because you enjoy the game, or because it's a good way to get to know the new person, or because you just didn't have other plans for the night. You might decline because he's a stranger, or you've got a regular game going, or just have other plans for the night. It's probably phrased as a simple invitation, but if the guy is a jerk and says "you look too stupid to bet well and I could use the cash" that's probably a sign to get insulted. On the other hand, reading that statement into the invitation in the first place if it's not there is just silly.

On the other hand, there is not a mass species psychosis when it comes to poker, so there is a lot more baggage. But I feel that in principle the same theories apply.

AtlanteanTroll

2011-04-25, 04:27 PM

You're objectifying the dead tree from which the magazine is made?
Not all porn is hetero.

Mordokai

2011-04-25, 04:31 PM

Not all porn is hetero.

And now you're just complicating things where there's no need for complicating.

Coidzor

2011-04-25, 11:25 PM

But what if you watched it for the men? And what if you legitimitly enjoy the articles and that's why you buy them? Just curious.

It's still contributing money to the people that produce such things at all, I believe, in the case of the purchasing of such things, that this is sufficient for the act of objectification.

I'm going to fall in on "propositioning should not be considered insulting by default," but I'm going to say that it can be phrased in an insulting way.

Agreed.

She might actually be interested in nothing but a night or three of casual sex. Females have libidos too, and they aren't all so stupid as to think that guy they met at the nightclub really wants to have a meaningful relationship with them.

Well, I imagine you'd find that out pretty quickly if you offered that kind of advice to someone like that, eh? :smallconfused:

golentan

2011-04-25, 11:37 PM

And now you're just complicating things where there's no need for complicating.

Speak for yourself. I can certainly see the advantages of complication...:smallredface:

Coidzor

2011-04-25, 11:50 PM

Speak for yourself. I can certainly see the advantages of complication...:smallredface:

I dunno how one manages to determine the sex of woodpulp though.... or whatever magazines are made out of these days. :smallconfused:

golentan

2011-04-25, 11:53 PM

I dunno how one manages to determine the sex of woodpulp though.... or whatever magazines are made out of these days. :smallconfused:

Taste, naturally. Female wood pulp tastes slightly Saltier Type 5, while Male tastes slightly Saltier Type 4. Though most paper is intersex anyway.

Lissou

2011-04-26, 12:02 AM

I hang out with a lot of guys, and they're all respectful as far as I can tell. And about objectification... I like myself some objectification. Not all the time, not everyone, but to paraphrase Dan Savage, sometimes, you need to be able to take someone out of their pedestal, do dirty things with them, and then put them back up.

I don't mean that one-way, either. I objectify guys from time to time. Doing it to guys who don't want to be objectified at that time is bad, but doing it to people with their consent is fun. You know, saying "Hi there, hot stuff" and slapping their behind or something.

But that kind of thing would be totally inappropriate to do to a stranger or someone you don't know very well. The slapping part at least.

As for being offended by being propositioned... I remember someone once thought I was a prostitute when I was walking in the street going back home from work, and showed interest.
Well, I didn't feel flattered (I don't believe the guy had super-high standards, I believe any woman who agreed to have sex with him would have been fine), but I certainly didn't feel offended either.
And I've been asked out by complete strangers in the street, and was never offended by any of these, either (although once again not flattered for the same reasons). I don't really get why I should be offended any more than by a hobo asking me for money when I don't have any to give (to give an example of something else you can ask a complete stranger in the street).

But I guess some people might be grossed out enough to be offended by it. I don't know. I don't get it but I don't think they're wrong to feel that way, it's just how they feel about it, and I totally get wanting to be able to walk in the street without people propositioning you.

Plus I can be weird in what offends me personally. For instance, I always get annoyed by clerks that ask how I am doing. How is it any of their business to ask about my private life? Or when I walk in a store and employees start saying "hi", I want to just leave the store (I've done it in the past) because I feel cornered. I'd much rather they didn't talk to me without being asked, I feel like they're not respecting my privacy otherwise.
Most people think I'm weird about that, so if people get offended by stuff I really don't care about, I don't want to start telling them they're wrong, because who am I to tell them how they're supposed to feel?

Mordokai

2011-04-26, 12:21 AM

Speak for yourself. I can certainly see the advantages of complication...:smallredface:

What I meant to say was, the existance of non hetero porn is irrelevant in this case, since we're talking about objectifying women. Ergo, the porn that doesn't have women... performers in it is not relevant to discussion here.

Innis Cabal

2011-04-26, 12:24 AM

So it's not objectifying when men look at homosexual porn? Or that just because this is asking about women that somehow men objectifying other men or women objectifying other women isn't on topic?

Lissou

2011-04-26, 12:25 AM

What I meant to say was, the existance of non hetero porn is irrelevant in this case, since we're talking about objectifying women. Ergo, the porn that doesn't have women... performers in it is not relevant to discussion here.

Er... Never heard of woman-on-woman porn? That usually feature straight women having sex together, because it sells?

Dvandemon

2011-04-26, 12:26 AM

No, you are not. On a related note, can't a guy say he likes boobs without accusations of being an objectifying jerk?

Innis Cabal

2011-04-26, 12:26 AM

They also on average get paid more for same sex films then they do for hetero porn. That's just on average though.

Coidzor

2011-04-26, 12:34 AM

No, you are not. On a related note, can't a guy say he likes boobs without accusations of being an objectifying jerk?

Nope. Mostly because it's just one of those things about language and mixed company.

Mordokai

2011-04-26, 01:08 AM

So it's not objectifying when men look at homosexual porn? Or that just because this is asking about women that somehow men objectifying other men or women objectifying other women isn't on topic?

The latter, really.

Er... Never heard of woman-on-woman porn? That usually feature straight women having sex together, because it sells?

Read what I wrote again more closely.

Vella_Malachite

2011-04-26, 01:32 AM

No, you are not. On a related note, can't a guy say he likes boobs without accusations of being an objectifying jerk?

Heh - there's a guy in our friendship group a bit like that: nicest guy you'd ever want to meet, definitely isn't the "objectifying jerk" type, but will tell you, specifically, what he finds attractive in women, including more typically controversial attributes. We give him flak for it, but not seriously. It's not like he's intending it shallowly - I guess I make a difference between "this is what I find attractive" and "this is what a woman must look like for me to be interested."

I also know a lot of people who will, say, discuss the attractiveness of actors/actresses. Does it mean they're objectifying people? I don't think so. I don't see anything wrong with judging attractiveness. As long as you don't hurt the person you're evaluating.

I actually find "objectifying" very difficult to define: do you define it as "caring only about appearance"? But then, casual sex has been mentioned, and I see nothing wrong with that. I think the closest I can get is the unwillingness to see a gender as people - it's more about attitude, for me, than how they treat the person. Objectification is internal, not external.

factotum

2011-04-26, 01:39 AM

Plus I can be weird in what offends me personally. For instance, I always get annoyed by clerks that ask how I am doing. How is it any of their business to ask about my private life? Or when I walk in a store and employees start saying "hi", I want to just leave the store (I've done it in the past) because I feel cornered.

I'm exactly the same, so I don't find that weird at all. Mind you, I also dislike it when a shop assistant walks over and says "Can I help you?" when I've literally just walked in the shop...sometimes I *have* actually walked out of shops because of too-pushy sales assistants!

Lissou

2011-04-26, 01:52 AM

Read what I wrote again more closely.

I re-read what I quoted and I'm not sure what you mean. Or did you mean to read your other posts more closely?

EDIT: I went to re-read your other posts and I'm still not sure what you mean. Do you consider "gay porn" to mean "porn for gays?" For me, it's "porn featuring two people of the same gender". Most woman-on woman porn is intended for men as far as I know, so maybe you still consider it to be "hetero porn"?
/EDIT

I don't think saying you like breasts is objectifying. Hell, I make lots of comments about how fun they are to play with. I guess it's harder to consider it objectification when you're talking about your own, though...

I don't think objectifying is about finding someone beautiful. It's about not treating them as an equal, or even as a person at all. It's treating them like a tool, like an object (hence the name). If you consider people to be your possession, you're objectifying them, for instance.

Coidzor

2011-04-26, 01:57 AM

I re-read what I quoted and I'm not sure what you mean. Or did you mean to read your other posts more closely?

EDIT: I went to re-read your post and I'm still not sure what you mean. Do you consider "gay porn" to mean "porn for gays?" For me, it's "porn featuring two people of the same gender". Most woman-on woman porn is intended for men as far as I know, so maybe you still consider it to be "hetero porn"?
/EDIT

Gay porn, in the lingo of the culture, as it were, refers to specifically male-on-male performance. Woman-on-Woman is referred to, generally, as lesbian porn despite not being marketed towards lesbians for the most part.

...I never thought I'd ever have cause to state that. :smallconfused: My life is odd.

Lissou

2011-04-26, 02:04 AM

But Mordokai didn't even use the words "gay porn" (I did). The exact phrase was "non-hetero porn".

ZombyWoof

2011-04-26, 02:07 AM

Objectification is in the eye of the recipient. If a girl is angry because you say "I couldn't help but noticing but you have a really nice chest" then good for her. I know if someone randomly came up to me and said, "Sorry, I couldn't help but noticing, but you have a great butt" I wouldn't spend the day fuming and being upset about how that person clearly sees me as an object.

I'd spend the day glowing and feeling great about myself because I was so awesome (or at least there was a feature about me that was so awesome) that a total stranger had to compliment me on it.

That's just me though and maybe different responses are necessary... all I know is that I would NOT like hanging out with someone who would take something designed as a compliment and strip it down into a backhanded insult. I just don't appreciate people with that world view.

Lissou

2011-04-26, 02:12 AM

That reminds me a man once came up to me and complimented me on my breasts. He wasn't hitting on me or anything, he just walked up to me and said I had great breasts, and he smiled, I thanked him and he went away.
I couldn't imagine ever being upset about that. I don't see why it should make me less happy than if he had said I had a great smile, for instance.

But I don't think that's the same thing as walking to someone and going "hey, wanna have sex?", either.

haveabrain

2011-04-26, 02:18 AM

lol@picking up random girls is to objectify them. If that's the case, then me dating random guys is objectifying them as well.

I'm not going to lie, as a pretty independent woman I find this post itself a little sexist. I look for guys who are not trying to get to know me when all I want to do is casually date. :smallconfused: I mean, it sounds like your saying every guy needs to like get to know a girl because all girls are ever looking for is a relationship. lol we can be justttt as shallow. I'm sorry, but I don't need a relationship. However, I have chosen that I kind of need sex so, yes, I occasionally hook up with guys I hardly know. And I don't need them to want to know me, I'd prefer they don't.

And I don't have low self esteem and I don't even really consider myself easy. Actually, the opposite, I am super independent and confident hence not wanting any relationship.

I am not at all trying to be mean I'm just trying to make a point that it SOUNDS LIKE you think of women as semi fragile creatures that need to be treated delicately. =/ It's a little sexist in and of itself.

haveabrain

2011-04-26, 02:21 AM

This I find pretty amusing. I wonder, from any of the girls reading this thread, if someone walked up to you and asked you "Hey baby, want no strings attached sex?" If you'd be insulted or not.

No I would not be insulted. lol this happened to me the other day and I believe I just responded with a "do I seem that easy?" He said no, but it was worth a shot. I kind of consider that flirting. I mean...if you use those exact words its deifnitely BAD flirting, and you probably will not get sex, but still flirting.

Coidzor

2011-04-26, 02:32 AM

That reminds me a man once came up to me and complimented me on my breasts. He wasn't hitting on me or anything, he just walked up to me and said I had great breasts, and he smiled, I thanked him and he went away.
I couldn't imagine ever being upset about that. I don't see why it should make me less happy than if he had said I had a great smile, for instance.

Heck, I know plenty of people who would be upset if a strange man walked up to them and complimented them on their smile.

...And a couple who would view such behavior as the kind of thing to discourage/stamp-out because of hypersensitivity to the omnipresent threat of being raped.

Mordokai

2011-04-26, 02:32 AM

I re-read what I quoted and I'm not sure what you mean. Or did you mean to read your other posts more closely?

EDIT: I went to re-read your other posts and I'm still not sure what you mean. Do you consider "gay porn" to mean "porn for gays?" For me, it's "porn featuring two people of the same gender". Most woman-on woman porn is intended for men as far as I know, so maybe you still consider it to be "hetero porn"?

Then I'll spell it out, since maybe I did word it a little awkwardly.

If you watched porn that has women playing in it, because of the women in question, you've(as in, anybody who watched that kind of porn, not you specifically) objectified women. Be it straight porn or woman on woman porn.

Atlantean Troll said there's other than just hetero porn out there and that means you're not necesarily objectifying women by watching it. I say that if that porn has no women playing in it, it has no bearing on discussion at hand.

Sorry if I hadn't made myself clear enough.

haveabrain

2011-04-26, 02:36 AM

Then I'll spell it out, since maybe I did word it a little awkwardly.

If you watched porn that has women playing in it, because of the women in question, you've(as in, anybody who watched that kind of porn, not you specifically) objectified women. Be it straight porn or woman on woman porn.

Atlantean Troll said there's other than just hetero porn out there and that means you're not necesarily objectifying women by watching it. I say that if that porn has no women playing in it, it has no bearing on discussion at hand.

Sorry if I hadn't made myself clear enough
Feel like we're leaving out a very important point...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asj-tiIp8DA

Mordokai

2011-04-26, 02:48 AM

You're right. But will you please point at the exact point where I said women can only be objectified by men?

Hell, objectification all around! We live in democracy, after all :smallbiggrin:

haveabrain

2011-04-26, 02:54 AM

You're right. But will you please point at the exact point where I said women can only be objectified by men?

Hell, objectification all around! We live in democracy, after all

Exactly. Now, the real sexism comes from this only women can be objectified stuff. Or that we need to be saved from being objectified because we are the weaker of the sexes.

That is kind of why this thread is a bit sexist.

ZombyWoof

2011-04-26, 02:56 AM

No I would not be insulted. lol this happened to me the other day and I believe I just responded with a "do I seem that easy?".
What if instead he said, "I hope so, at least. I'm not too good at this sort of game" :smallwink:?

EDIT: I would like to point out that haveabrain is saying (perhaps more accurately) what I've been trying to say for a while now.

Mordokai

2011-04-26, 02:58 AM

Exactly. Now, the real sexism comes from this only women can be objectified stuff. Or that we need to be saved from being objectified because we are the weaker of the sexes.

That is kind of why this thread is a bit sexist.

Hey, feel free to objectify me any day of the week. I don't mind.

Please? :smalltongue:

haveabrain

2011-04-26, 03:25 AM

What if instead he said, "I hope so, at least. I'm not too good at this sort of game" ?

EDIT: I would like to point out that haveabrain is saying (perhaps more accurately) what I've been trying to say for a while now.
Sorry, I have a bad case of post-before-reading.

And if he said that I'd say, "Well, get better at it, 'cause I'm not." And I would also know that he prob was good at this game, 'cause that line wasn't half bad. :smalltongue:

Hey, feel free to objectify me any day of the week. I don't mind.

Haha honestly? I will be the first to admit that I probably do objectify men AND see women as kind of the superior sex. That is why I LIKE meaningless sex. I don't find most men capable of being in a relationship with me, as I am pretty strong and most guys are intimidated by a strong, independent, pretty girl. So for me it's a little like lawl you're cute hunny but you're not much more than that.

But I will openly admit to being a bit sexist that way. At least I treat guys like my equals though, in that if I can be used I don't see a problem using them :smallamused:

EDIT: You made a super point back on page 1 that I want to emphasize..

All you men who consider yourselves feminist and all supporting-women and crap, GET OVER YOURSELVES. Really. I hate to be harsh but you will NEVER UNDERSTAND how it is to be a women and the most offensive thing you can do is pretend you understand the plight of women. I mean, really? Think to your girlfriends, if you have one/had one, were you really that good to them? Or did you pretend you understand women and then take for granted the girls who are actually around you, or better yet do you treat all your friends who are girls as things to "protect?" Yeah, even if you won't admit to it I have met my fair share of guys who "get" women.

You want to support women? Stop trying to understand us on this universal level. We are individuals, some strong some weak some stupid some smart. And treat the individual women you meet as you would treat an individual man, because anything else is just offensive.

That's the end of my rant, thanks.

golentan

2011-04-26, 03:41 AM

Hey, feel free to objectify me any day of the week. I don't mind.

Please? :smalltongue:

Consider yourself objectified you wonderful studmuffin you. Get over here and...

oh, I'm sorry. You weren't talking to me, were you?

Themrys

2011-04-26, 03:49 AM

its more like walking up to girls
and literally asking them to a one night stand just out of nowhere

Well, a lot depends on how the question is asked. I certainly am insulted if someone acts as if I was a prostitute.
However, I like it when people just say what they want, so I don't waste time trying to find out what they want. So, I'd prefer the polite question whether I am into one night stands or not, so I can just say no and walk away.
Men who offer to buy me a drink for the exact same purpose are more confusing.

Same goes for "Hey, you look pretty, want to date?" - at least there is a chance I find the guy attractive and say yes. While asking me stupid questions like "Don't I know you from somewhere?" is absolutely pointless, for I only answer them truthfully and then walk away. On a good day, I realize in the evening that, maybe, the guy knew he didn't know me and wanted to change that.

In my case, asking guys for dates just because they're good-looking would make sense since I have a weird taste and only seldom get to know any guys I find attractive.
However, I just can't. If I consider it, I start thinking how stupid it is to date someone without knowing in the least whether he's a decent human being.

Mordokai

2011-04-26, 03:49 AM

Sorry, I have a bad case of post-before-reading.

And if he said that I'd say, "Well, get better at it, 'cause I'm not." And I would also know that he prob was good at this game, 'cause that line wasn't half bad. :smalltongue:

Haha honestly? I will be the first to admit that I probably do objectify men AND see women as kind of the superior sex. That is why I LIKE meaningless sex. I don't find most men capable of being in a relationship with me, as I am pretty strong and most guys are intimidated by a strong, independent, pretty girl. So for me it's a little like lawl you're cute hunny but you're not much more than that.

But I will openly admit to being a bit sexist that way. At least I treat guys like my equals though, in that if I can be used I don't see a problem using them :smallamused:

EDIT: You made a super point back on page 1 that I want to emphasize..

All you men who consider yourselves feminist and all supporting-women and crap, GET OVER YOURSELVES. Really. I hate to be harsh but you will NEVER UNDERSTAND how it is to be a women and the most offensive thing you can do is pretend you understand the plight of women. I mean, really? Think to your girlfriends, if you have one/had one, were you really that good to them? Or did you pretend you understand women and then take for granted the girls who are actually around you, or better yet do you treat all your friends who are girls as things to "protect?" Yeah, even if you won't admit to it I have met my fair share of guys who "get" women.

You want to support women? Stop trying to understand us on this universal level. We are individuals, some strong some weak some stupid some smart. And treat the individual women you meet as you would treat an individual man, because anything else is just offensive.

That's the end of my rant, thanks.

Really? What did you say your number was again... :smallbiggrin:

Consider yourself objectified you wonderful studmuffin you. Get over here and...

oh, I'm sorry. You weren't talking to me, were you?

I didn't, but don't let that stop you. It's a free country, after all :smallsmile:

haveabrain

2011-04-26, 03:52 AM

To prove my point, go ahead and skip to 9:15 :smallwink:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1mwZ9TsZC4&feature=related

haveabrain

2011-04-26, 03:56 AM

Really? What did you say your number was again...

Haha men are so easy. I could be a total uggo, y'know.

I mean, I'm not, but how would you know that :smalltongue:

haveabrain

2011-04-26, 03:58 AM

However, I just can't. If I consider it, I start thinking how stupid it is to date someone without knowing in the least whether he's a decent human being.

..? If you don't date somebody, how on earth are you going to know if they are a decent human being.
I think that's the point of dating.

Mordokai

2011-04-26, 04:06 AM

To prove my point, go ahead and skip to 9:15 :smallwink:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1mwZ9TsZC4&feature=related

No habla espanol, bonita senorita :smalltongue:

Haha men are so easy. I could be a total uggo, y'know.

I mean, I'm not, but how would you know that :smalltongue:

What is life without little risk? :smallbiggrin:

SDF

2011-04-26, 04:07 AM

I'll objectify the snot out of girls. I've always been a fan of Nietzscheian philosophy, and the inequality of people. :smalltongue:

The premise of this topic is ridiculous. No one is going to see themselves as discriminatory in a modern democratic society. It's like starting a topic asking if you are the only person that doesn't kick puppies, and expecting the boot wearing cretins to come out of the woodwork.

ZombyWoof

2011-04-26, 04:09 AM

Sorry, I have a bad case of post-before-reading.
Um wut.

And if he said that I'd say, "Well, get better at it, 'cause I'm not." And I would also know that he prob was good at this game, 'cause that line wasn't half bad. :smalltongue:
If I'd heard that, I'd throw out, "Sucks to be me then because I don't play around. Games are for people who are afraid to speak their mind and simply ask for what they want, and I'm no coward. You're either in or you're out."

Alternatively if I was feeling risque I'd sneeze and say "sorry, I'm allergic to bull." But really the difference between the two would depend on your tone of voice. Are you making it clear to me that you view me as an inferior yet?

Haha honestly? I will be the first to admit that I probably do objectify men AND see women as kind of the superior sex. That is why I LIKE meaningless sex. I don't find most men capable of being in a relationship with me, as I am pretty strong and most guys are intimidated by a strong, independent, pretty girl. So for me it's a little like lawl you're cute hunny but you're not much more than that.
This sounds like a copout more than anything else. Nice to know you're too strong and independent for me to handle, eh? :smallwink:

But I will openly admit to being a bit sexist that way. At least I treat guys like my equals though, in that if I can be used I don't see a problem using them :smallamused:
Congratulations you contribute to the problem.

EDIT: You made a super point back on page 1 that I want to emphasize..

All you men who consider yourselves feminist and all supporting-women and crap, GET OVER YOURSELVES. Really. I hate to be harsh but you will NEVER UNDERSTAND how it is to be a women and the most offensive thing you can do is pretend you understand the plight of women. I mean, really? Think to your girlfriends, if you have one/had one, were you really that good to them? Or did you pretend you understand women and then take for granted the girls who are actually around you, or better yet do you treat all your friends who are girls as things to "protect?" Yeah, even if you won't admit to it I have met my fair share of guys who "get" women.

You want to support women? Stop trying to understand us on this universal level. We are individuals, some strong some weak some stupid some smart. And treat the individual women you meet as you would treat an individual man, because anything else is just offensive.

That's the end of my rant, thanks.
Please stop doing this. I get all set in my ways thinking I'm going to hate you, then i realize I agree with you entirely, then I feel like we're almost half-buttockedly flirting on some forum, and then I realize I linked to femblog?

I feel like jello right now. This thread has me all topsy turvey and I have to watch out before I casserole* all over this thread.

*was looking for a food word. Sorry.

Oh by the way call me out all you like but I treat people around me with dignity and respect when I feel like it, and like a jerk when I don't. Have I treated my girlfriends perfectly? Lol hell no, but anyone who claims to have treated their genderfriend with perfect kindness all the time is a flaming liar.

P.S. Haveabrain, two things on a personal note:

1) It's the "edit" key, it's like just above the "reply" key.
2) A girl worth fighting for!!!

loopy

2011-04-26, 04:19 AM

As strange as it may seem from my Playground rep, I don't objectify girls, and heap scorn upon those who do.

The way to get girls is to realise they are all unique, with their own upsides and downsides. Well, its the way to get girls who actually leave your life holding some respect for you, anyway. :smallsmile:

haveabrain

2011-04-26, 04:20 AM

Um wut.

You said I was making the point you wanted to make, but I hadn't read your posts before I posted.

If I'd heard that, I'd throw out, "Sucks to be me then because I don't play around. Games are for people who are afraid to speak their mind and simply ask for what they want, and I'm no coward. You're either in or you're out."

HAHA this is ironic because you wouldve been the one who suggested it was a game. If you haven't noticed ALREADY I am an incredibly up front person and I don't do bs either. So I would answer "I don't play games either. I will be up front, if you want me you have to work for me. I'm simply not that easy, but worth it."
All is true.

Alternatively if I was feeling risque I'd sneeze and say "sorry, I'm allergic to bull." But really the difference between the two would depend on your tone of voice. Are you making it clear to me that you view me as an inferior yet?

I don't try to make men or anybody feel inferior. Now, I SAID that yes, I usually view men as inferior. I don't flaunt that thought, it's a fault. But I don't try and hide my faults generally.

Oh by the way call me out all you like but I treat people around me with dignity and respect when I feel like it, and like a jerk when I don't. Have I treated my girlfriends perfectly? Lol hell no, but anyone who claims to have treated their genderfriend with perfect kindness all the time is a flaming liar.

Exactly. Now, you don't seem like you're putting on this feminist front though. And my point is just that you're true "feminism" is not based off philosophy or your opinions of women in a societal view, but how you treat the real women in your life. And I know many'o'men who think they're feminist and then treat their S.O.'s like ****. It's just true.

2) A girl worth fighting for!!!
Confused by this statement.

This sounds like a copout more than anything else. Nice to know you're too strong and independent for me to handle, eh?

For MOST men to handle. Now, if you're an independent guy who admires an honest, blunt, and often challenging then lady then you're golden. But I don't find these men terribly often. It's not a copout, I give most guys a chance. But they do usually fail miserably.

Please stop doing this. I get all set in my ways thinking I'm going to hate you, then i realize I agree with you entirely, then I feel like we're almost half-buttockedly flirting on some forum, and then I realize I linked to femblog?

I feel like jello right now. This thread has me all topsy turvey and I have to watch out before I casserole* all over this thread.
If I said "I have this effect on people" I sound conceited, but I do. People views of me are often polarized and sometimes to the point of loving-then-hating or hating-then-loving. I wonder why.

ZombyWoof

2011-04-26, 04:33 AM

You said I was making the point you wanted to make, but I hadn't read your posts before I posted.
Oh. Well I was pointing out that you were saying what I wanted to say and tried to say, nothing else.

I don't try to make men or anybody feel inferior. Now, I SAID that yes, I usually view men as inferior. I don't flaunt that thought, it's a fault. But I don't try and hide my faults generally.
Well then I'd be glad to stick with the coward comment :smallwink:

Exactly. Now, you don't seem like you're putting on this feminist front though. And my point is just that you're true "feminism" is not based off philosophy or your opinions of women in a societal view, but how you treat the real women in your life. And I know many'o'men who think they're feminist and then treat their S.O.'s like ****. It's just true.
*Ahem* "your" not "you're."

And when asked I usually used to say "no" until I started reading up on third-wave feminism. Now I say "Kind of sort of third wave feminist." I'd never introduce myself as "I'm a feminist" though, because that implies I care about the "plight" of women. I don't. I care that people are being treated like crap and their gender is entirely irrelevant to me. So in the sense that you'll never see me campaigning for women's rights, I'm no feminist. But in the sense that the moment I see someone, well, posting an OP like this one I'll jump in and point out the major flaws in his reasoning, I guess I am. In the sense that I freely use those "bad" terms (that I'm not allowed to say for fear of the moderation) I'm definitely not a feminist and would often be called a homophobe as well. But in the sense that I treat my friends with dignity male or female, I guess I am?

Whatever. Keep your labels. I'd rather just go along being human.

Confused by this statement.
See, in this movie, Mulan sets up a really funny line. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiqmZLOaD8o)

For MOST men to handle. Now, if you're an independent guy who admires an honest, blunt, and often challenging then lady then you're golden. But I don't find these men terribly often. It's not a copout, I give most guys a chance. But they do usually fail miserably.
What if I'm an honest, blunt, and often challenging guy who will gladly point out your grammar errors, such as an extra "then" in front of "lady"? Do I at least win the bronze?

If I said "I have this effect on people" I sound conceited, but I do. People views of me are often polarized and sometimes to the point of loving-then-hating or hating-then-loving. I wonder why.
Oh trust me this isn't YOU having the effect on me. It's the entire situation. I LINKED FEMBLOG FOR THE LOVE OF PETE! I had to scrub off in bleach after that.

He's big. HE'S BAD! Watch out ladies, because here comes Da Woof!

No habla espanol, bonita senorita :smalltongue:

*senorita bonita

Not only does he correct grammar in english, but fixes it in spanish too! And the crowd goes wild!

Coidzor

2011-04-26, 04:35 AM

As strange as it may seem from my Playground rep, I don't objectify girls, and heap scorn upon those who do.

Not really. It's pretty good, as far as I can tell.

Haha men are so easy. I could be a total uggo, y'know.

If too ugly to sex up
Then no loss beyond a bit of time.
Else Profit!

Seeing an ugly person generally doesn't cause SAN damage or anything. :smallconfused:

Mordokai

2011-04-26, 04:39 AM

*senorita bonita

Not only does he correct grammar in english, but fixes it in spanish too! And the crowd goes wild!

I get the feeling you're mocking me...

Watch it. I said it's ok to objectify me, not mock me :smalltongue:

profitofrage

2011-04-26, 04:41 AM

All you men who consider yourselves feminist and all supporting-women and crap, GET OVER YOURSELVES. Really. I hate to be harsh but you will NEVER UNDERSTAND how it is to be a women and the most offensive thing you can do is pretend you understand the plight of women. I mean, really? Think to your girlfriends, if you have one/had one, were you really that good to them? Or did you pretend you understand women and then take for granted the girls who are actually around you, or better yet do you treat all your friends who are girls as things to "protect?" Yeah, even if you won't admit to it I have met my fair share of guys who "get" women.

You want to support women? Stop trying to understand us on this universal level. We are individuals, some strong some weak some stupid some smart. And treat the individual women you meet as you would treat an individual man, because anything else is just offensive.

That's the end of my rant, thanks.

Ok im not sure if anyone has adressed this yet but after reading it I feel I have to for the sake of mankind.
This idea that noone can understand something unless they are in that exact same precise situation no matter what is very very very inaccurate...
Sure it helps if a person has been in that position..but for people with compassion, understanding and a good handful of intellegence can understand the various issues other people face. Its called Empathy...humans develope Empathy over the course of there lives. Empathy allows people to think "what if i were in that situation?" and understand how the other person may feel.
Your self admitted sexism and disliking of males has obviously reinforced this stuid ideal that men cant possibly understand "the womens plight" and thus are just being stupid when some say they do (I actually agree that alot of the people I see saying they do..clearly dont but still my point remains valid).

As to the topic of the forum....geeze..Can we move past this "put women up on a pedestal" frame of mind society is on at the moment...
I mean I understand that when society goes through a social shift..it does so in a see sore (spelling?) motion..where first were completly ignorant of something..then we jump on it to the extreme before finally after decades it evening out...but damb this one has been going on way to long in my opinion.

i guess to be fair there are still some places in the world (and even next door) that have yet to even address the issue..but its not going to encourage them to move on when everyone else is sticking to the extreme instead of letting things get to that acceptable goey grey area of acceptability ( yea i said it twice).

golentan

2011-04-26, 04:42 AM

Yeah... I was doing this tongue biting thing I've been doing lately to avoid getting into massive flamewars. Since you've admitted your sexism is a character flaw... that throws previous comments into another light that doesn't make me as angry. So I'm unbiting my tongue to give what I hope is constructive criticism.

I would suggest people's mixed reactions may have something to do with the way you phrase your statements. See, when you phrase an insult towards large chunks of the audience, it's offputting to have it not phrased as an insult or to be directed seemingly indiscriminately beyond the actual targets. And when you are making a simple statement of intent or belief, it's similarly offputting to have it phrased as an insult or challenge. I know this to be true because I spent long years learning that sentence structure and connotation mattered as much or more than underlying logic structures and annotation to you people.

ZombyWoof

2011-04-26, 04:45 AM

Seeing an ugly person generally doesn't cause SAN damage or anything. :smallconfused:
Depends on how ugly :smallfrown:

I get the feeling you're mocking me...

Watch it. I said it's ok to objectify me, not mock me :smalltongue:
It's ok dear I'm mocking my own grammar-nazi ways :smallwink:

Themrys

2011-04-26, 04:47 AM

..? If you don't date somebody, how on earth are you going to know if they are a decent human being.
I think that's the point of dating.

Sometimes, you get to talk to guys without dating them. It does happen. Also, you get to see who their friends are. Which is important. If you date a guy, he always tries to behave properly...the real face, you only see if he doesn't know he's watched. :smallwink:

And I know lots and lots of guys who seem quite decent...and whom I don't date because their looks aren't to my taste. It does make me feel a tiny bit shallow.

haveabrain

2011-04-26, 04:49 AM

See, in this movie, Mulan sets up a really funny line.

Hahah well yeah that might be accurate.

What if I'm an honest, blunt, and often challenging guy who will gladly point out your grammar errors, such as an extra "then" in front of "lady"? Do I at least win the bronze?

You win a tiring 3:45 am stare and possibly a screw you bro, it's late and this isn't english.
But, seriously. Yes, I do like the honest, blunt, willing to tell me I'm wrong thing. The thing is, if ever you end up offending me, I'd tell you in a very direct way. This actually happened the other night with this blunt guy I'm talking to, and it ended in a simple "sorry."
That's the TRUE difference between playing games and being honest, saying what you think regardless of if it's going well or not. But I digress.

In reference to anything ELSE, :smalltongue: simply saying that you have to work for me is not playing a game. I was pretty straight-forward, I didn't pretend to do/be anything I'm not, and if you choose not to work for it well, then, you won't. But I like to keep it very simple.
I get a lot of offers, so if you want to get yours (or it) in, then yeah I need to be impressed a bit.
This scenario is excluding, say, if I just run into an attractive guy who is dtf. Because the conversation just wouldn't occur :smalltongue:

Andre

2011-04-26, 04:54 AM

Warning - Do NOT read with a broken irony detector

I'll objectify the snot out of girls. I've always been a fan of Nietzscheian philosophy, and the inequality of people. :smalltongue:

The premise of this topic is ridiculous. No one is going to see themselves as discriminatory in a modern democratic society. It's like starting a topic asking if you are the only person that doesn't kick puppies, and expecting the boot wearing cretins to come out of the woodwork.

'mazing. If I ever happen to pass through Idaho going somewhere else, you up for a night of kicking girls puppies and objectifying puppies girls together?

As for gender equality, I'm totally in support.
haveabrain, from my point of view women can have all the positives of it, all the things men usually get peeved on - such as, handling the remote, driving the car, having a better job and rubbing it straight on their man's face, becoming president of the US, being taller et cetera.
I'd like, however, women to be introduced also the negatives of gender equality - as such, men will NOT pay the entire bill when out on a date, and you will be considered "vain" if you call them "stingy". Addendum, under any circumstance that would warrant a person beating (physically) the hell out of another person, the catchphrase "Would you beat a woman?" is not allowed to come into play.
A person should only be worried of being pressed with aggression charges, not by the other person's gender. Only that way will our society achieve ultimate gender equality. :smallbiggrin:

haveabrain

2011-04-26, 04:58 AM

If too ugly to sex up
Then no loss beyond a bit of time.
Else Profit!
If you get yourself into an awkward position where you're meeting somebody, mainly for sex, and they're ugly you DO have to find a way out of it which is just an awkward annoying mess.

I would suggest people's mixed reactions may have something to do with the way you phrase your statements. See, when you phrase an insult towards large chunks of the audience, it's offputting to have it not phrased as an insult or to be directed seemingly indiscriminately beyond the actual targets. And when you are making a simple statement of intent or belief, it's similarly offputting to have it phrased as an insult or challenge. I know this to be true because I spent long years learning that sentence structure and connotation mattered as much or more than underlying logic structures and annotation to you people.

When I said, "I wonder why," I was being sarcastic. I mean, I am well aware of how I come off. But I was also talking about IRL. It's less of phrasing, and more of really what I'm saying. I can phrase it however I want, but the notion that YOU ARE WRONG is just generally offensive. But the suggestion is duly noted.
(I'm coming off rude here too but I'm tired and I just want to type the way the words come out of my brain with minimal correction.)

Ok im not sure if anyone has adressed this yet but after reading it I feel I have to for the sake of mankind.
This idea that noone can understand something unless they are in that exact same precise situation no matter what is very very very inaccurate...
Sure it helps if a person has been in that position..but for people with compassion, understanding and a good handful of intellegence can understand the various issues other people face. Its called Empathy...humans develope Empathy over the course of there lives. Empathy allows people to think "what if i were in that situation?" and understand how the other person may feel.
Your self admitted sexism and disliking of males has obviously reinforced this stuid ideal that men cant possibly understand "the womens plight" and thus are just being stupid when some say they do (I actually agree that alot of the people I see saying they do..clearly dont but still my point remains valid)
See, this is just where we fundamentally disagree. I'm a passionate person, especially regarding, say, homelessness in the United States. Now, I can try and help, I can be empathetic, but I will NEVER understand what they go through. There simply is no way, unless I go through it myself. And if I were homeless, and somebody came up to me and told me they understand what I'm going through, I'd smack them.
However, I'm not going to argue it further because on fundamental issues you are never going to convince the other person of anything.

Morph Bark

2011-04-26, 05:00 AM

..? If you don't date somebody, how on earth are you going to know if they are a decent human being.
I think that's the point of dating.

You must have a hard time knowing whether your friends are decent human beings then. :smalltongue:

Also Woof, thanks for getting me on a Disney song binge. Woo.

ZombyWoof

2011-04-26, 05:02 AM

Sometimes, you get to talk to guys without dating them. It does happen. Also, you get to see who their friends are. Which is important. If you date a guy, he always tries to behave properly...the real face, you only see if he doesn't know he's watched. :smallwink:
WOAH WHAT?

Nah this is pretty much true. Wait till you see me cry like a baby because haveabrain didn't return my call :smallwink:

You win a tiring 3:45 am stare and possibly a screw you bro, it's late and this isn't english.
Oh? Then what are you typing in? :smallwink:

But, seriously. Yes, I do like the honest, blunt, willing to tell me I'm wrong thing. The thing is, if ever you end up offending me, I'd tell you in a very direct way. This actually happened the other night with this blunt guy I'm talking to, and it ended in a simple "sorry."
I dunno if it'd end in a "sorry" most times with me.

In reference to anything ELSE, :smalltongue: simply saying that you have to work for me is not playing a game. I was pretty straight-forward, I didn't pretend to do/be anything I'm not, and if you choose not to work for it well, then, you won't. But I like to keep it very simple.

I get a lot of offers, so if you want to get yours (or it) in, then yeah I need to be impressed a bit.
I know plenty of girls who have an attitude like yours and get as many offers as you claim to who I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. And it's not because they get offers, and it's definitely not because they have this "greatest thing ever" attitude.

It's because they mask their fear of being inadequate behind wall upon wall of bravado. Because every time I talk to them and break through to the real them I find something amusing. Also moderately unappealing. Not saying this is you, and I'd love to be wrong, but I will say this: the one girl I know who I would say is both promiscuous and well-adjusted? She doesn't have any attitude at all and is actually a very nice and polite person. She doesn't "try to make people work" for her and she never brags about the offers she gets.

But demanding the work is a part of the game, as is talking about the offers you get. You're trying to push me into fighting for something by claiming others want it. Why would I care if others want it? It's a roundabout manipulation play that probably works on a lot of guys who can't see it.

I happen to keep my ears to the ground though. What you're doing is the same thing Apple did with their "iPad 2" shortages. Nintendo did it as well a long time ago. Shrink supply to artificially lower the supply/demand ratio and then tout this ratio as an example of how "in demand" the product in question is. Oldest trick in marketing.

This scenario is excluding, say, if I just run into an attractive guy who is dtf. Because the conversation just wouldn't occur :smalltongue:
Fortunately I'm serially unattractive and am thus under no danger of falling to your feminine wiles!

But would you like to know what I find fascinating about you?

@Morph, what can I say, I play a little of every role here on the little 'ol interwebs.

Coidzor

2011-04-26, 05:05 AM

I know plenty of girls who have an attitude like yours and get as many offers as you claim to who I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. And it's not because they get offers, and it's definitely not because they have this "greatest thing ever" attitude.

Oh, yeah. The women who have everyone do all of the work for them because they're pretty, so they never learn how to carry their weight in a conversation or interpersonal relationship. Those are fun to be around.

If you get yourself into an awkward position where you're meeting somebody, mainly for sex, and they're ugly you DO have to find a way out of it which is just an awkward annoying mess.

Just one of the situations one has to be prepared for when embarking upon that road, really, along with taking steps to ensure it doesn't bleed through and have an effect on one's life.

The main thing lost is still the time barring some cthulhoid monstrosity or a psychopath which are sort of beyond the given scenario.

profitofrage

2011-04-26, 05:06 AM

See, this is just where we fundamentally disagree. I'm a passionate person, especially regarding, say, homelessness in the United States. Now, I can try and help, I can be empathetic, but I will NEVER understand what they go through. There simply is no way, unless I go through it myself. And if I were homeless, and somebody came up to me and told me they understand what I'm going through, I'd smack them.
However, I'm not going to argue it further because on fundamental issues you are never going to convince the other person of anything.

I was about to go into the complexities of explaining the difference between "understanding something" and "Experiencing it" are two very different things...but I think your right in that I should drop it for the reasons you pointed out, its just the internet its not that big a deal.

ZombyWoof

2011-04-26, 05:07 AM

My best friend is dating one and she's not even pretty. Suffice to say she is one of the most revolting people I know: content to sit around playing World of Warcraft all day and treating people like crap because she thinks she's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

But yes, I know her weakness too, and I could push that button if I so chose.

Coidzor

2011-04-26, 05:09 AM

pffh

2011-04-26, 05:11 AM

If you get yourself into an awkward position where you're meeting somebody, mainly for sex, and they're ugly you DO have to find a way out of it which is just an awkward annoying mess.

If you're meeting someone mainly for sex then wouldn't you have seen at least a picture of the person?

Also "I'm sorry but I don't see this working out, I'm just not that interested in you" or something similar has always worked for me to get out of boring dates :smalltongue:

haveabrain

2011-04-26, 05:14 AM

I know plenty of girls who have an attitude like yours and get as many offers as you claim to who I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. And it's not because they get offers, and it's definitely not because they have this "greatest thing ever" attitude.

It's because they mask their fear of being inadequate behind wall upon wall of bravado. Because every time I talk to them and break through to the real them I find something amusing. Also moderately unappealing. Not saying this is you, and I'd love to be wrong, but I will say this: the one girl I know who I would say is both promiscuous and well-adjusted? She doesn't have any attitude at all and is actually a very nice and polite person. She doesn't "try to make people work" for her and she never brags about the offers she gets.

But demanding the work is a part of the game, as is talking about the offers you get. You're trying to push me into fighting for something by claiming others want it. Why would I care if others want it? It's a roundabout manipulation play that probably works on a lot of guys who can't see it.

I happen to keep my ears to the ground though. What you're doing is the same thing Apple did with their "iPad 2" shortages. Nintendo did it as well a long time ago. Shrink supply to artificially lower the supply/demand ratio and then tout this ratio as an example of how "in demand" the product in question is. Oldest trick in marketing.

Here is what you're missing: this is the internet. NOW, that being said, I am being COMPLETELY HONEST to how I feel about myself and my lifestyle. I do not walk around with this attitude, it stays in my head. How fuzucking annoying would it be if I was like all lawl guys i love myself did you know? Yeah, annoying. I do love me, but I try and not flaunt it. And irl I don't need to flaunt the offers because irl I am pretty and that generally speaks for itself/gets me the offers. I'm not going to pretend that I don't like me, though, because I do.
I am flawed, in many ways.. But accepting every one of them in the way that I do now is the product of years of hard work and acceptance. And being strong is the product of many years of stress and being told I cannot do things. I'm not a teenager anymore, though, and I'm glad I grew out of the insecurity.

Also, just because I'm confident and blunt does not mean I am not sweet. I care about people, I'm a compassionate person. I may say when I think you're wrong, but I'm not trying to hurt anybody.

Work for my affection? That is true for any beginning to a relationship, it's not a game just because I state that. What am I supposed to do, like you before I even know you? Like I said, only if you're hot and dtf hah. Otherwise you have to have a personality to compensate.

I'll respond to the marketing thing the same way I have everything, Im not marketing myself here I am speaking what I believe is true. And in the real world, it's a different game and a different story.

And sure, shoot.

also goodnight for now.

ZombyWoof

2011-04-26, 05:32 AM

Here is what you're missing: this is the internet. NOW, that being said, I am being COMPLETELY HONEST to how I feel about myself and my lifestyle. I do not walk around with this attitude, it stays in my head. How {redacted} annoying would it be if I was like all lawl guys i love myself did you know? Yeah, annoying. I do love me, but I try and not flaunt it. And irl I don't need to flaunt the offers because irl I am pretty and that generally speaks for itself/gets me the offers. I'm not going to pretend that I don't like me, though, because I do.
So what you're saying is that you hide the attitude that you display freely here on the internet? Either you're hiding IRL or you're hiding here. I suspect you're hiding here, to be very honest, and that you are also hiding IRL.

I am flawed, in many ways.. But accepting every one of them in the way that I do now is the product of years of hard work and acceptance. And being strong is the product of many years of stress and being told I cannot do things. I'm not a teenager anymore, though, and I'm glad I grew out of the insecurity.
Do you accept your flaws, or do you work to change them? It's the difference between surrender and strength.

Also, just because I'm confident and blunt does not mean I am not sweet. I care about people, I'm a compassionate person. I may say when I think you're wrong, but I'm not trying to hurt anybody.
Never said you weren't sweet. I am making the point that this particular lady is wildly different from the persona you put on.

Work for my affection? That is true for any beginning to a relationship, it's not a game just because I state that. What am I supposed to do, like you before I even know you? Like I said, only if you're hot and dtf hah. Otherwise you have to have a personality to compensate.
No, dear, a conversation is not "work." I don't have to "work" for the affection of my friends, I "hang out with them" and "enjoy life" with them. If a conversation is work then you're doing it wrong.

I'll respond to the marketing thing the same way I have everything, Im not marketing myself here I am speaking what I believe is true. And in the real world, it's a different game and a different story.
You're marketing yourself, but it's nice that you're trying to hide it I suppose. Goes well with your opinion that you are superior to me! In addition, marketing yourself doesn't mean you're being dishonest. At least, it doesn't always mean that you're being dishonest. Usually marketing tells nothing but the truth, though it does not tell the whole truth.

And sure, shoot.
I find you fascinating because you are the embodiment of what I am *supposed* to be. You profess that you care for little more than a hot body and a single night of fun, and you claim that males are below you. You talk about how you don't want to date someone or be in a relationship with anyone because there are so few who meet your standards.

So what's interesting about that?

The best girlfriend I've ever had was maybe a 6.5. She was the best girlfriend I ever had because she was smart and had a brain which she often used. Not always, mind, but often. Oh I've dated the "smokin' hot" type before. I've even had a decent time with them. But one day you learn that after a few drinks she's still tripping over the concept of floating 151 over her drink while you're busy trying to work out the circumference of a sphere off the top of your head by applying the arc angle formula and working through two simultaneous trig substitutions because you don't have anywhere to write anything down. And why? Because someone made an off-comment about how fast they were driving and you were curious how fast they were driving relative to the Sun.

In short, you're looking for the body. I find that amazingly fascinating because I am looking for the brain.

And it's "supposed" to be the other way around.

P.S. Mountain time zone is a trap. The best beaches are in PDT :smallwink:

P.P.S. I redacted a statement you made because I despise the red text.

P.P.P.S. Hope you had as much fun with this as I did! Sure beats the new episode of House MD. I should stop by these feminism threads more often.

P.P.P.P.S. I forgot what time zone you're in.

haveabrain

2011-04-26, 05:44 AM

I lied I guess, ONE LAST POST for now I swear.

So what you're saying is that you hide the attitude that you display freely here on the internet? Either you're hiding IRL or you're hiding here. I suspect you're hiding here, to be very honest, and that you are also hiding IRL.

Im not hiding either. Now, I am TELLING you my attitude because it fits this conversation obviously. and if you asked me IRL if I thought I was the hottest thing since sliced bread, I'd tell you yes. But would I go up and tell you that? No, naturally. I'm saying I have social skills. And I know I'm pretty bold so, yeah, I know when to tone it down. You can call that hiding but I call it respectful.

Do you accept your flaws, or do you work to change them? It's the difference between surrender and strength.

Some I accept, some I change. I am not the epitome of strength. But, generally, I change the ones I find detrimental to my life/people I love. There are many flaws I don't want to change because they are sometimes beneficial to me. It really depends. Not to mention, minor flaws are not worth changing. I'm not concerned with being perfect at all, I don't want to be one of those people that needs to change themselves to become ideal.

Never said you weren't sweet. I am making the point that this particular lady is wildly different from the persona you put on.

No, it's not. This is one tiny facet of my personality. Being strong and not wanting a relationship but wanting sex does not make me a hardened girl. Being confident and make a little cocky does not make me a hardened girl. You can draw these from the fact that I'm very blunt, but I'm blunt in the nice way as well. It just hasn't come up in this conversation.

No, dear, a conversation is not "work." I don't have to "work" for the affection of my friends, I "hang out with them" and "enjoy life" with them. If a conversation is work then you're doing it wrong.

We're talking about two different things here.

You're marketing yourself, but it's nice that you're trying to hide it I suppose. Goes well with your opinion that you are superior to me! In addition, marketing yourself doesn't mean you're being dishonest. At least, it doesn't always mean that you're being dishonest. Usually marketing tells nothing but the truth, though it does not tell the whole truth.

I didn't say that it was being dishonest or even that marketing is a bad thing. But I'm not marketing myself here because there are no prospective boys here that I need to worry about marketing myself to. This is an interesting conversation, I'm enjoying myself, but I'm not terribly worried what any guys are going to think of me here.

And on that last note, I'm an intellect-oriented girl. And when I'm looking for a boy who could possibly be my boyfriend, it IS his brain I admire. I date the geekiest of guys, I sleep with the hottest of guys. At this point in my life, Im not looking for a relationship but every once in awhile I meet a guy I think is only cute and then he turns out to be smart as well...then I have to back away because I don't want a boyfriend :smalltongue:

I'm not a particularly brainless girl, so I don't go for particularly brainless men.

Boo

2011-04-26, 05:53 AM

ZoombyWoof, it's rude to psychoanalyze a person in public. You flopping fro, you~! <3

I remember my friend telling me that she could smell burning rubber when none was present. I asked her if her arm hurt, and told her that if it did, she could be having a stroke. She said no. I punched her in the arm and asked her again. She was probably having a stroke.

This is totally objectifying women, AMIRITE? No, I'm not.

The objectivity of genders is subjective. It would be phonetically redundant to be objective, I suppose. Stop being racist and stuff. Damn xenophobic sexist carnies and your dogs...

Stupid amphibian mapa...
This thread is slightly ironic, but in a "self-aware" sort of way. It's creepy. Stop being creepy.

Yora

2011-04-26, 05:57 AM

who doesnt objectify girls?
Yes you are. All men are genetically bad, without exception.

ZombyWoof

2011-04-26, 06:02 AM

No, it's not. This is one tiny facet of my personality. Being strong and not wanting a relationship but wanting sex does not make me a hardened girl. Being confident and make a little cocky does not make me a hardened girl. You can draw these from the fact that I'm very blunt, but I'm blunt in the nice way as well. It just hasn't come up in this conversation.
Think what you like, I know the persona you put on (which is not necessarily your personality) and I know this other girl.

We're talking about two different things here.
Unless you have some very strange and arbitrary method of deciding which guy you bring home? Not really. You've described a conversation with you as "work." And you talk deeply about playing the game, but you refuse to call it that.

I didn't say that it was being dishonest or even that marketing is a bad thing. But I'm not marketing myself here because there are no prospective boys here that I need to worry about marketing myself to. This is an interesting conversation, I'm enjoying myself, but I'm not terribly worried what any guys are going to think of me here.
You are marketing yourself. A million people may call the mountains fiction but it need not trouble you as you stand atop them. A feigned disinterest and one of the greatest and most tried-and-true internet excuse are used here.

There is a distinction though: you may not be marketing yourself consciously or indeed you may not be marketing yourself to win the hearts (or other items of anatomy) of the fine gents on this forum, but you are *still* marketing yourself.

I am not commenting on whether or not you are doing it.

I am commenting on the methods which you have taken. I honestly still suspect they are conscious and each post in this thread is deliberately crafted. I don't think you're as strong or nearly as independent as you build yourself up to be, and the vast majority of your posts, whether you intend to or not, do say that you are hiding something.

@Yora, I know. I try to overcome my disability and applied for one of those handicap placards to no avail :smallfrown:

Sipex

2011-04-26, 09:30 AM

Haha honestly? I will be the first to admit that I probably do objectify men AND see women as kind of the superior sex. That is why I LIKE meaningless sex. I don't find most men capable of being in a relationship with me, as I am pretty strong and most guys are intimidated by a strong, independent, pretty girl. So for me it's a little like lawl you're cute hunny but you're not much more than that.

But I will openly admit to being a bit sexist that way. At least I treat guys like my equals though, in that if I can be used I don't see a problem using them :smallamused:

Just a quick note, this is how sexism/racism or any other ism should be handled.

You realise you're a bit sexist but you don't let it change how you treat guys. Nothing wrong with that.

Klose_the_Sith

2011-04-26, 10:38 AM

You realise you're a bit sexist but you don't let it change how you treat guys. Nothing wrong with that.

The funny thing about treating people fairly and dutifully is that eventually and with enough contact they stop being the 'group' they were and just start being people.

(Oh all of my old -ism's, how little I miss you ...)

On topic, I don't think I objectify women. Well, actually.

I treat my girlfriend in a way that some might consider sexist, but it's all in good fun. Besides, she does it to me more (the perv) and I know that neither of us is bothered by it. Doesn't stop me from smacking her butt when her butt's looking good (or many other ways I tease her that I won't discuss) :smalltongue:

Keld Denar

2011-04-26, 10:50 AM

Everyone's a little bit racist sexist
Sometimes.
Doesn't mean we go
Around committing hate crimes.
Look around and you will find
No one's really color gender blind.
Maybe it's a fact
We all should face
Everyone makes judgments
Based on race sex.

Ammended for relevance.

Dvandemon

2011-04-26, 12:13 PM

Half the people I know that are upset about compliments to chest size are those are insecure, either because they have size variances to the extremes. I do understand how they'd feel but I greatly disapprove of assumptions about my disposition. :smallannoyed:
Heh - there's a guy in our friendship group a bit like that: nicest guy you'd ever want to meet, definitely isn't the "objectifying jerk" type, but will tell you, specifically, what he finds attractive in women, including more typically controversial attributes. We give him flak for it, but not seriously. It's not like he's intending it shallowly - I guess I make a difference between "this is what I find attractive" and "this is what a woman must look like for me to be interested."

I also know a lot of people who will, say, discuss the attractiveness of actors/actresses. Does it mean they're objectifying people? I don't think so. I don't see anything wrong with judging attractiveness. As long as you don't hurt the person you're evaluating.

I actually find "objectifying" very difficult to define: do you define it as "caring only about appearance"? But then, casual sex has been mentioned, and I see nothing wrong with that. I think the closest I can get is the unwillingness to see a gender as people - it's more about attitude, for me, than how they treat the person. Objectification is internal, not external.
About the judging actor thing, for some reason I get really pissed off when when we're watching a show and my brother blurts, "She's ugly". I really chew him out for that :smallredface:

haveabrain

2011-04-26, 05:30 PM

You are marketing yourself. A million people may call the mountains fiction but it need not trouble you as you stand atop them. A feigned disinterest and one of the greatest and most tried-and-true internet excuse are used here.

There is a distinction though: you may not be marketing yourself consciously or indeed you may not be marketing yourself to win the hearts (or other items of anatomy) of the fine gents on this forum, but you are *still* marketing yourself.

I am not commenting on whether or not you are doing it.

I am commenting on the methods which you have taken. I honestly still suspect they are conscious and each post in this thread is deliberately crafted. I don't think you're as strong or nearly as independent as you build yourself up to be, and the vast majority of your posts, whether you intend to or not, do say that you are hiding something.

If that's the case, then everybody is marketing themselves always?? No, I'm not TRYING to give off a persona. And this is where we come full circle..

I feel like that the notion that just because I like myself and feel confident, there must be a "catch" is a little offensive. I am literally just answering everything as honestly as possible. Just because I'm confident and female does not mean I'm hiding anything. I have my flaws, as I've said, and my insecurities. But none dramatic enough to make me dislike myself, or to make me not feel confident and strong. I really don't know what you expect me to be hiding. And I do think you are beginning to sound a little sexist in that I MUST be hiding something because I'm strong and confident and like myself?? I mean, really?? Is it that unbelievable?

It's not like I'm claiming to be perfect I've said several times I'm NOT, I just like me anyways!

I don't know what is so crazy about that.

And I'd like to emphasize that you DON'T know me in the slightest. =/ This has been one conversation about ONE aspect of my personality and I'm not that one dimensional.

EDIT: && There's not much reason to discuss it further because there is no way to convince somebody online that you are who you claim to be, there just isn't. And this topic has shifted from sexism to me lying about who I say I am, and there is no point in arguing that.

Perenelle

2011-04-26, 06:09 PM

Think about what he's implying. He's basically saying "Hey, you look easy. You look like my big pecs could make you throw away your panties."

Now, I know girls who like that kind of once-meet-never-again sex, but I get the feeling Perenelle isn't one of them.

That's kind of what I was thinking when I said I'd be insulted. It's more about what's being implied than what's being said, and it's the rude implied suggestions/implications about me that would bother me more than just someone asking to have sex.
I don't care how harmless that person may be trying to be, it would still be uncomfortable, inappropriate, and and insulting.

He's not implying that you look easy. That's you putting words and feelings into his mouth. And I dislike your implication by use of the word "easy" that somehow a girl who likes sex is a bad person or something.

I think most people would make assumptions about a random guy asking a girl he doesn't know to have sex. Even though those assumptions may be wrong, the guy asking such a blunt questions should be aware that chances are assumptions will be made about him.

Objectification is in the eye of the recipient. If a girl is angry because you say "I couldn't help but noticing but you have a really nice chest" then good for her. I know if someone randomly came up to me and said, "Sorry, I couldn't help but noticing, but you have a great butt" I wouldn't spend the day fuming and being upset about how that person clearly sees me as an object.

I'd spend the day glowing and feeling great about myself because I was so awesome (or at least there was a feature about me that was so awesome) that a total stranger had to compliment me on it.

That's just me though and maybe different responses are necessary... all I know is that I would NOT like hanging out with someone who would take something designed as a compliment and strip it down into a backhanded insult. I just don't appreciate people with that world view.

If someone complimented my chest I wouldn't be upset, I'd just be creeped out. But I still think that's different from flat out asking for sex. I see how it can be a compliment, but I still think it would be in bad taste and not something that should be smiled upon, especially not when done to random people on the street that aren't being suggestive like that in any way.

About the judging actor thing, for some reason I get really pissed off when when we're watching a show and my brother blurts, "She's ugly". I really chew him out for that :smallredface:

That always bothers me too. I remember a couple occasions where guys (in school or random people in movie theatres) would get annoyed/make comments about the actresses being ugly or "not hot enough", even when they're really good actors. :smallannoyed: They would completely disregard everything that they're good at and only judge on appearance.

ZombyWoof

2011-04-26, 06:14 PM

If that's the case, then everybody is marketing themselves always?? No, I'm not TRYING to give off a persona. And this is where we come full circle..
Heh heh you're starting to figure it out aren't you.

I feel like that the notion that just because I like myself and feel confident, there must be a "catch" is a little offensive. I am literally just answering everything as honestly as possible. Just because I'm confident and female does not mean I'm hiding anything. I have my flaws, as I've said, and my insecurities. But none dramatic enough to make me dislike myself, or to make me not feel confident and strong. I really don't know what you expect me to be hiding. And I do think you are beginning to sound a little sexist in that I MUST be hiding something because I'm strong and confident and like myself?? I mean, really?? Is it that unbelievable?
And now you play the sexist card. There is a difference between bravado and confidence, and you crossed that line some time ago.

It's not like I'm claiming to be perfect I've said several times I'm NOT, I just like me anyways!

I don't know what is so crazy about that.
What is crazy is that you think you're the best.

And I'd like to emphasize that you DON'T know me in the slightest. =/ This has been one conversation about ONE aspect of my personality and I'm not that one dimensional.
Amusing.

EDIT: && There's not much reason to discuss it further because there is no way to convince somebody online that you are who you claim to be, there just isn't. And this topic has shifted from sexism to me lying about who I say I am, and there is no point in arguing that.
I never said you were lying, those are your words not mine. There is a strong distinction between dishonesty and lying, and the difference is in intent.

AtlanteanTroll

2011-04-26, 06:16 PM

As for gender equality, I'm totally in support.

And by admitting it exists, you go on to support it's existence; inadvertently or no.

Trog

2011-04-26, 06:35 PM

*skips over most of the entire thread after reading the first few posts*

Both men and women objectify one another to a certain extent and everyone (yes, you too) does it. You can deny that you do it - deny that you don't find one person much more attractive than another based on looks - but it won't stop it from happening in your mind. Won't stop everyone else from rolling their eyes and not believing you for a second that you're somehow so above it all (unless you were born without sexual organs at all or otherwise have the physical lack of a need to procreate in one form or another in which case you are excused). It won't stop you from falling for the looks of one person over another. Won't stop you from thinking how good they look in those pants. And it's not wrong to feel this way. It's why we have attractive celebrities, for example. Movie stars play roles in movies that have nothing to do with what type of person they are in real life yet men and women will drool over the hotness of said people.

If facebook stats are to be believed people on average have about 150 people that they know well enough to be friends or perhaps just acquaintances (or if you don't believe the stats stick your limited number of people here - the number really isn't important). Those are people you know and have some idea of their personality. The rest of the world barring prominent people in the news and such? You don't know at all. Yet you will make a snap judgement of their looks at a mere glance.

You will pigeonhole them into some sort of category based solely on their looks and current behavior and again there is nothing inherently wrong with this behavior so long as you know that you are not getting the whole picture - you do not know that person and thus do not have the proper information to do much else besides judge them based on appearance. The conclusions you draw based off of these knee-jerk reactions can certainly be erroneous though. Seeing a good looking person and assuming because they are good looking that they are easy and only want sex says more about your assumptions than it does about your initial observations.

So the real question of the OP could be phrased: "Am I the only one that doesn't make juvenile faulty assumptions based off of my observations?" No, you aren't.

Morph Bark

2011-04-26, 06:40 PM

What is crazy is that you think you're the best.

Thanks to your words and haveabrain's username, this made me picture a brain dancing to the tune of You're the best... of all! Nothing's ever gonna beat you down!

Seriously though, you either are taking this much more seriously than haveabrain, or have taken a liking to trolling her here.

Can we move past that and get back to the original topic please?

EDIT: Trog just sounded so much like one of my Psychology/Philosophy teachers it's not even... well, it actually is funny. :smalltongue:

LaZodiac

2011-04-26, 06:45 PM

Pretty sure it's "The best around" not "best of all".

On topic, uh...I think breasts are nice and usefull.

ZombyWoof

2011-04-26, 06:46 PM

I haven't taken this seriously for a few posts now Morphy. That's not to say I'm trolling, just that I haven't taken it seriously.

pffh

2011-04-26, 06:47 PM

Pretty sure it's "The best around" not "best of all".

On topic, uh...I think breasts are nice and usefull.

Indeed. An ex of mine was quite busty and she (and I :smallbiggrin:) used hers to clean smudgy cd's. So very useful indeed.

haveabrain

2011-04-26, 07:35 PM

Haha I never claimed to be the best just because I think I'm pretty awesome. It seems very simple to me, it is your over-analysis that is complicating it.

And lying or dishonest, two traits I happen not to be. Now, this entire conversation has been about how I think of myself and I answered honestly. If this was a conversation about my insecurities, I'd answer just as honestly.

Boo

2011-04-26, 07:56 PM

Indeed. An ex of mine was quite busty and she (and I :smallbiggrin:) used hers to clean smudgy cd's. So very useful indeed.

Imagine how easy it'll be when she's old and grey.

@assumingfolk: Making assumptions can make an... No, I'll let you figure out the rest.

Archpaladin Zousha

2011-04-26, 07:58 PM

It's my fear of objectifying girls that prevents me from trying to form romantic relationships with them. It's odd. I'm more comfortable speaking with women in casual conversation than I am with other guys, but at the same time I'm hesitant to ask someone out on a date, partially because I worry about the problem of objectification and partly because I constantly feel unprepared for the responsibilities a romantic relationship involves due to my autism. :smallfrown:

Coidzor

2011-04-26, 10:31 PM

Indeed. An ex of mine was quite busty and she (and I :smallbiggrin:) used hers to clean smudgy cd's. So very useful indeed.

...The skin there didn't just smudge them further what with the oils that human skin produces? :smallconfused:

pffh

2011-04-27, 04:34 AM

...The skin there didn't just smudge them further what with the oils that human skin produces? :smallconfused:

Weeeeell let me tell you a tale of a wonderful invention called a plain colour cotton T-shirt. It covers the upper body of a person allowing you to freely wipe your smudgy things that can't be scratched on their boobs. :smalltongue:

LaZodiac

2011-04-27, 10:48 AM

I lied I guess, ONE LAST POST for now I swear.

Im not hiding either. Now, I am TELLING you my attitude because it fits this conversation obviously. and if you asked me IRL if I thought I was the hottest thing since sliced bread, I'd tell you yes.

Haha I never claimed to be the best just because I think I'm pretty awesome. It seems very simple to me, it is your over-analysis that is complicating it.

And lying or dishonest, two traits I happen not to be. Now, this entire conversation has been about how I think of myself and I answered honestly. If this was a conversation about my insecurities, I'd answer just as honestly.

I'm just pointing out how interesting these two comments are, consider they are on the same page, infact. =P

And Pffh, that is relevent to my intersts and wish to subscribe to your newsletter, out of curiosity of what else my breasts can do.

Coidzor

2011-04-27, 10:53 AM

Weeeeell let me tell you a tale of a wonderful invention called a plain colour cotton T-shirt. It covers the upper body of a person allowing you to freely wipe your smudgy things that can't be scratched on their boobs. :smalltongue:

Seems a bit hard to actually use them as opposed to the disc on them in that context though...

And that hands would be better for the job either way. :smalltongue:

Syka

2011-04-27, 12:37 PM

Eh, if a guy I just met (but had been talking to, important distinction) was trying to get me into bed and/or bluntly asked me to have sex...I wouldn't do it (for semi-unrelated reasons), but I wouldn't be offended.

If someone at a club or similar situation walked up to me wanting to get busy, I'd commend them for having balls, and turn them down rather definitely.

If someone approached me just out on the street and made any sort of sexually suggestive comments, particularly in a pretty isolated environment, I'd be definitely creeped out. Possibly a bit frightened. By that, I mean comments asking for sex, or on my breasts, butt, or figure. Cat calls also fall into this realm, for me.

There is a difference between compliments and sexually suggestive compliments from strangers, and context has a LOT to do with how I would react. Night out on the town? You'd get a thank you and a smile. Random day? Yeah, you're getting the creeper look.

In the context of the OP, it doesn't seem like something I would take as offensive. Sure, it's objectifying but...who doesn't like a little objectifying every now and then? I do it to my boyfriend all the time, and he to me. We still have a mutually respectful and wonderfully happy relationship because, as someone else mentioned, we don't view each other ONLY as objects.

haveabrain

2011-04-27, 03:59 PM

I'm just pointing out how interesting these two comments are, consider they are on the same page, infact. =P
Sorry, I thought it was clear I was just being snappy there because the whole since sliced bread thing is not an actual phrase anybody takes seriously. To clarify, I'm not the greatest thing since sliced bread.

faceroll

2011-04-28, 01:40 AM

The Extinguisher

2011-04-28, 01:50 AM

How about instead of not objectifying women as much, we objectify men just as much as women. Then everyone is equal, and everyone gets to be happy.

Simple solution to the problem.

Darth Stabber

2011-04-28, 01:57 AM

Woman and Men pretty much have to be objects, they're not processes:smallbiggrin:

ZombyWoof

2011-04-28, 03:29 AM

Every single time I read this thread title I think, "... no, I'm pretty sure I'm a guy too."

golentan

2011-04-28, 03:34 AM

Woman and Men pretty much have to be objects, they're not processes:smallbiggrin:

Hmm... arguably they're unusually complex chemical processes, given that you can retain the physical form of a "human" while disrupting the component processes enough to prevent them from remaining "people..."

And hypothetically you could divorce the person from the object through a mind upload. Though the tech for that is still a ways away.

ZombyWoof

2011-04-28, 03:43 AM

Actually that's moderately debunked. The only way to accurately replicate any particular human would be to rebuild it atom-by-atom.

Eldan

2011-04-28, 03:44 AM

They are also constantly exchanging parts of the object (breathing, eating) and still remaining the same person.

rakkoon

2011-04-28, 03:49 AM

Every single time I read this thread title I think, "... no, I'm pretty sure I'm a guy too."

I always want skip over the OP and just reply "YES" and leave.

Now, it these PC times it is also fun to sometimes just sit back and watch people passing by. With or without grading them. If you always do this you have a problem. But once in a while....

golentan

2011-04-28, 04:06 AM

Eldan: Yeah, but that's an ongoing process which can be disrupted by the simple tweaking of chemical levels. Since many of the component pieces get swapped out regularly yet we consider the entity to be the same person by virtue of continuity of process, yet stop considering the entity to be a person when the processes stop and they get all corpsified... ??? Maybe?

Zomby_Woof: Nonsense. Once you've got sufficient detail level on the brain through an integrated system (nannies!) you can get sufficient modeling information to at least emulate most aspects of the target. It doesn't have to be exact. The antikythera mechanism didn't have to be an exact replica of the solar system to successfully replicate its motion from any reasonable perspective. Memory and logic pathing emulation should be sufficient without mucking about with the headache of exact duplication.

ZombyWoof

2011-04-28, 04:47 AM

But relatively as a system the solar system is fairly simple. We're talking about the interaction of a relative handful of bodies rather than the interaction of billions upon billions of cells which affect the electrochemical gradient in ways we're not even sure we comprehend yet.

Eldan

2011-04-28, 04:49 AM

Which is why we can't do a good alpha simulation yet, no one's denying that. But with fast enough computers and some research, betas might not actually be achievable in the foreseeable future.

Themrys

2011-04-28, 05:19 AM

How about instead of not objectifying women as much, we objectify men just as much as women. Then everyone is equal, and everyone gets to be happy.

Simple solution to the problem.

Not a desirable one, though, if you're talking about sex-objecification. It is done to men and women alike in crappy fanfiction and that doesn't make it better. :smalleek:

Miscast_Mage

2011-04-28, 05:26 AM

Woman and Men pretty much have to be objects, they're not processes:smallbiggrin:

Programming joke, yayness! :3

I've been kind of staying out of the conversation for a while now, but I feel I should just add this viewpoint; Screw gender. It's only as important as how high priorities you give it. A person is a person before they are a gender. Their gender is a part of them yes, but in most scenarios, short of wanting to have a romantic/sexual relationship with someone(and even then that's really more a sex thing as opposed to gender), gender is irrelevent. It's the person that matters, regardless of what gender expression/identity or sex.

That being said, sexual objectification(as opposed to objectification from general misogyny/misandrony. I'm not touching that one with a ten-foot pole) can be a completely healthy thing depending on how high it is on your list of perceptions of a person. If the first thing you think about a person is sexual, then their gender, and lastly the person themselves? In my opinion, that's a bit of problem, although I can understand if it's just a random person who caught your eye in the street. If you look the person as a person first, then think "Wow, she's got a nice rack" or "I'd ride that baloney pony", then I see no problem with that. Simply having sexual fantasies about someone is not objectifying them. Letting that fantasy influence you in other aspects when dealing with that person can be, though(note I said can, not always. There is and always will be statistical anomolies and exceptions to the norm, so don't try and catch me out on that. Nyeh.:smalltongue:)

Darth Stabber

2011-04-28, 09:50 AM

+3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.

You are clearly forgetting the raw power of +1 keen bane(hunger) girlfriends. They interact well if you can spend the money on a 4slot stove

Morph Bark

2011-04-28, 10:49 AM

OP is from Paris. May have... different rules of engagement over there.

Oh! Oh THAT explains everything! The only place worse would be Venice.

Coidzor

2011-04-28, 11:18 AM

They are also constantly exchanging parts of the object (breathing, eating) and still remaining the same person.

There's a couple of different stances on that one though. Mostly metaphysical, but, still.

Starbuck_II

2011-04-28, 11:41 AM

+3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.

Also, the Boyfriend PrC was written too early in developement. Most of it's abilities are only available per day. I suggest you add maneuver progress to it similar to Eternal Blade, selecting maneuvers from the True Heart and Compassionate Ear disciplines. This gives you more per/encounter options in case your DM makes you go on all-day date sessions with multiple encounters.

+diginity is pretty easy to optimize outside of a girlfriend though. Clothing of Sharp-Dressedness will give you a +5 circumstance bonus alone. If you spend a month or two working out with a Barbell of Strength or a Sparring Dummy of Ninja-Skillz, you can also gain an +1 to +5 insight bonus Physique, which applies when making strength based checks and allows you to apply your Str stat to most Cha based interactions in addition to your Cha.

Optimizing Dating RPG, Keld? :smallbiggrin: