First Druid!!

[samster712]

hey guys,
so i'm very new to D&D (in fact im in the midst of my first ever campaign) and i chose to start a gnome druid :). The path that I'm setting out for myself is kind of the summoner/animal campanion/arrow shooting guy, and i was wondering a couple of things if people can please help me. (I am currently level 5 with point blank shot and spell focus evocation as a prerequisite for augmented summoning)
1. What are important feats for me to pick up?
2. what is a cool prestige that would help me out? (i really want to do a prestige class or multiclass)
3. and any tips in general for playing a druid

ps we are playing version 3.5

[AsteriskAmp]

3. Take Natural Spell, it allows you top cast in animal form.

[Greenish]

Have you checked the handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0)? It collects quite a bit of druid advise into one place.

For multiclassing, there aren't too many PrCs that're better than just taking more druid levels, but BoED has Lion of Talisid, which isn't that much worse.

[Lateral]

1. NATURAL SPELL. That is the single most important feat for a Druid, since you'll be in Wildshape most of the day.
2. In general, PrCing out of Druid isn't worth it- prestige classes don't advance wildshape or your animal companion, and those are your best class features after spellcasting. The only good one is Planar Shepherd, and it's just insanely overpowered.
3. Stay in Wild Shape most of the day once you can (once you have enough uses and it lasts long enough), get a good animal companion (the higher level ones are better than the party fighter, really), and just be awesome.

[Ozymandias]

Natural Spell will make your character significantly more powerful, although it's not really conducive to archery. Zen Archery (Sword and Fist, I think?) lets you add your Wis instead of Dex to ranged attacks within 30', which isn't great but is something to consider.

There's a reserve feat in Comp Mage that gives you unlimited elementals, which is useful for utility.

[Greenish]

The only good one is Planar Shepherd, and it's just insanely overpowered.Lion of Talisid and Moonspeaker are both okay, too. Full casting, small delay on Wild Shape progression (the former) or Animal Companion (the latter), if my memory serves.


Also, you could just take caster PrC and still be pretty potent.

[Bang!]

[People are going to yell at me because this suggestion isn't in the same power level of wild shape, but since you're asking about an archer rather than a shapeshifter...]

You might want to check out this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid) variant from the Unearthed Arcana book. It trades Armor Proficiencies and Wild Shape for Monk Speed and AC and Ranger Tracking and Wild Shape. If you have a high wisdom and Dexterity, it should make you harder to hit (even without armor), and will help you do some of the stereotypical tracking/hunting aspects that often go along with archers.

You're right to go for Augment Summoning on a summoner. It's probably your first priority for next level, if you don't want to play up the transforming aspects of the class.

Rapid Shot and Zen Archery (a feat from the Complete Warrior book) are probably the best places to start with an archer. Rapid Shot gives extra attacks, which are always good, and Zen Archery lets you use Wisdom to determine whether your attacks hit. Druids typically have very high Wisdom scores, so that should be a good thing. There's also a spell called Owl's Wisdom in the Spell Compendium that only Druids can cast that gives a high Wisdom increase for very long durations. With Zen Archery and the monk/ranger alternate class feature, that would improve spells, attacks and armor all at once.

One thing that would probably be fun for a Druid archer is to use your nature abilities to poison your arrows (either by charming snakes or gathering plants). With the Druid's poison immunities (and high Fortitude before that ability comes into play), you wouldn't have to worry about the same risks of poison that other characters have to deal with.

[RaginChangeling]

[People are going to yell at me because this suggestion isn't in the same power level of wild shape, but since you're asking about an archer rather than a shapeshifter...]

You might want to check out this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid) variant from the Unearthed Arcana book. It trades Armor Proficiencies and Wild Shape for Monk Speed and AC and Ranger Tracking and Wild Shape. If you have a high wisdom and Dexterity, it should make you harder to hit (even without armor), and will help you do some of the stereotypical tracking/hunting aspects that often go along with archers.

You're right to go for Augment Summoning on a summoner. It's probably your first priority for next level, if you don't want to play up the transforming aspects of the class.

Rapid Shot and Zen Archery (a feat from the Complete Warrior book) are probably the best places to start with an archer. Rapid Shot gives extra attacks, which are always good, and Zen Archery lets you use Wisdom to determine whether your attacks hit. Druids typically have very high Wisdom scores, so that should be a good thing. There's also a spell called Owl's Wisdom in the Spell Compendium that only Druids can cast that gives a high Wisdom increase for very long durations. With Zen Archery and the monk/ranger alternate class feature, that would improve spells, attacks and armor all at once.

One thing that would probably be fun for a Druid archer is to use your nature abilities to poison your arrows (either by charming snakes or gathering plants). With the Druid's poison immunities (and high Fortitude before that ability comes into play), you wouldn't have to worry about the same risks of poison that other characters have to deal with.

Or you could Wild Shape into the form of a Dire Ape, not waste a feat on Zen Archery, and shoot stuff. There are a lot of bipedal animals who can wield weapons as you level up.

[samster712]

The only good one is Planar Shepherd, and it's just insanely overpowered.

ummm...so my DM and my campaign mates already think that Druids are OP and kind of dislike them already so im guessing being a planar shepherd would just alienate them a lot more and make my DM try and kill me off? Cause i don't want to do that?

thanks for the advice...also if im in wildshape all the time how can I speak with the rest of my party? having to pantomine everything could be pretty annoying.

Also should i ask my DM if i can switch out point blank for natural spell? cause from what im hearing its much more important. Along those lines how long is the duration on wildshape? infinite? 1 hour per level?

[Greenish]

ummm...so my DM and my campaign mates already think that Druids are OP and kind of dislike them already so im guessing being a planar shepherd would just alienate them a lot more and make my DM try and kill me off? Cause i don't want to do that?Yeah, don't do Planar Shepherd.

In fact, if your DM and fellow players think druids too strong, I suggest taking any of the ACF downgrades there are. Shapeshift variant from PHBII doesn't really work for archer, but the UA variants (take both if you want) should be pretty okay.

[Tvtyrant]

Lion of Talisid and Moonspeaker are both okay, too. Full casting, small delay on Wild Shape progression (the former) or Animal Companion (the latter), if my memory serves.


Also, you could just take caster PrC and still be pretty potent.

I actually think using Lion of Talsid with the Monk+Fast Movement ACF to get a lot of bonuses is probably equivalent to a none-ACF Druid.

[samster712]

I actually think using Lion of Talsid with the Monk+Fast Movement ACF to get a lot of bonuses is probably equivalent to a none-ACF Druid.

you'll have to excuse my ignorance since this IS my first campaign ever...what is ACF...and what does lion of talsid get?

[samster712]

also how to do prestige class xp work. I know for normal druid levels it scales by a 1000...like my next level i need to get to 15,000 but if i start being like a heirophant do i need 15,000 or do i start back at like 1,000?


also speaking of heirophants...are they worth it as a prestige class?

[Tvtyrant]

An ACF is an Alternate Class Feature, they essentially swap out a class ability for a different ability. You can find the free ones here (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/variantClasses.htm).

The Lion of Talsid is a prestige class from The Book of Exalted Deeds and it was apparently created to give Rangers a source of Wildshape. It also grants Pounce, which is a cherished ability that everyone wants and as a class feature allows you to Pounce in any Wildshape form you take.

Hierophant usually isn't worth it because it doesn't give you either Wildshape or casting for the levels taken, and is mostly oriented towards Clerics anyways.

Really as a new player sticking with straight Druid is the best option, because they are already immensely powerful and multiclassing gives you even more options to sift through.

[samster712]

ok thx also can someone please answer how i can speak to other people in my party while im wild shaped if i can't access any creatures that can speak yet? any feats? should i take master of many forms?


IM kind of starting to like the idea of being a wild shaped summoner who can attack with himself, an animal companion and all his allies plus be able to heal which kind of seems to make a druid pretty amazing (which means natural spell is incredible)

kind of makes me realize why druids are disliked

[ka_bna]

ok thx also can someone please answer how i can speak to other people in my party while im wild shaped if i can't access any creatures that can speak yet? any feats? should i take master of many forms?

1. Invent some kind of language, either verbal (2 grunts = yes) or try writing in the sand.
2. Pearl of speech, 600gp found in the MIC, take one that grants you Common. Take it when you wildshape and talk all day long! (Arguably you can take it in gnome-form too, as the pearl isn't equipment on your body, but it merges with your tongue immediately)

[Torgarn]

Master of Many forms is also a good PrC to consider if you want to tone down the Druids power a bit, while enhancing the Wild Shaping abilities.

[MerlinTheWizard]

Druid was my first class as well. In my opinion they are overpowered compared to other classes (full spell caster, better BAB than wizard, more class skills than cleric, free animal companion, able to wear wooden armor, etc), so I think you'll find you won't really need a prestige class. Natural spell is the only core feat that really buffs your class skills, but Complete Divine also created some feats for druids that can be useful. I took augment summoning as well, which was fun, and if you get to high levels you'll be able to summon multiple animals at once and then buff them all at once with Animal Growth. My only general tips for playing a druid are to use your buff spells a lot, don't take the "I love nature" thing too far, and be creative and have fun with wild shape.

[samster712]

ok so i've been researching a lot the past two days and i've found a lot of good stuff but I also have a couple questions, especially on wild shaping and animal companions

ok first off animal companions: I was looking at the druid handbook and some of the companions they list are large monsters, does that mean you can take whatever type of animal companion you want?

second off wildshape: so i was looking at some of the different feats and it seems like the frozen wild shape for the cryohydra is ridiculously powerful and i feel like i should get it asap....that being said its a huge monster which brings me to my next question

Master of Many Forms: so first off does druid and MMF levels stack for wild shape (like if i have 3 MMF levels and 12 druid levels can I shape into a huge character like a level 15 druid can? and do i have 7 wild shapes/day for 15 hours or 12 hours?). Essentially how does MMF and Druid levels work for effective druid casting levels in regards to wildshape

Also it seems to me if i get MMF then I don't need Natural Spell since Shifter's speech allows me to speak in any wildshape form, correct?

[Lord Vampyre]

The Arcane Hierophant PrC from Races of the Wild advances your druidic spells, wild shape abilities, and your animal companion. However, it requires a 3 lvl dip into wizard. This doesn't offer a lot of synergy with druid, since a wizard is int based and druids are wis based. But you will pick up quite a bit of versatility by adding the wizard spells to your already potent druid spells.

Other issues, I might be mistaken, but I could have sworn that it was spell focus (conjuration) not (evocation) that was the prerequisite for Augmented Summoning. Also, I wouldn't worry about being the arrow shooting guy, you'll be too busy with your other class features that you'll rarely use a bow at the higher levels.

[WinWin]

Animal Companions are listed in the PHB. Alternate companions are listed in books like Sandstorm and Frostburn as well as other monster books (Feind Folio, MM2,MM3, etc.).

[Leon]

Moonspeaker is okay is very good


You'll need your DM to change the requirements entry as your the wrong race currently for the PrC.
It covers a broad range of skill sets that a Druid can do - particularly the Summoning side which you have mentioned being interested in.

Focus Evocation is not the requirement for Augment Summons - Focus Conjuration is, just change the word on your sheet.

Ignore Natural Spell - It is far far over rated.
Use Wildshape for tactical options and potentiality for Wild feat Charges.

As for general advice - if you are going to play a Summoner have a Selection of pre determined Stats for the things you think you will most likely summon and keep that number of creatures small to not bog down combats any more than they already can get.

[gomipile]

Natural Spell will make your character significantly more powerful, although it's not really conducive to archery. Zen Archery (Sword and Fist, I think?) lets you add your Wis instead of Dex to ranged attacks within 30', which isn't great but is something to consider.

There's a reserve feat in Comp Mage that gives you unlimited elementals, which is useful for utility.

In Complete Warrior, there is no range limit on Zen Archery. It just replaces Dex with Wis for all ranged attack rolls.

[LordBlades]

Ignore Natural Spell - It is far far over rated.
Use Wildshape for tactical options and potentiality for Wild feat Charges.



Natural Spell is in no way overrated. It's probably the single best feat for a druid by allowing you to complete ignore your physical stats and removing the need to choose between wild shape and spellcasting.

[Greenish]

You'll need your DM to change the requirements entry as your the wrong race currently for the PrC.
It covers a broad range of skill sets that a Druid can do - particularly the Summoning side which you have mentioned being interested in.Correction accepted. It should be noted though that some of the PrC's features should probably also be changed if the race was tweaked.

Ignore Natural Spell - It is far far over rated.Hardly. The possibilities it offers are all but endless.
As for general advice - if you are going to play a Summoner have a Selection of pre determined Stats for the things you think you will most likely summon and keep that number of creatures small to not bog down combats any more than they already can get.This is very true. You'll want statsblocks adjusted with how your feats boost the creatures, and should always know what the creatures you're summoning can do.

Natural Spell is in no way overrated. It's probably the single best feat for a druid by allowing you to complete ignore your physical stats and removing the need to choose between wild shape and spellcasting.Well, hitpoints are still dependent of your original con score, so you can't dump that.

[LordBlades]

Well, hitpoints are still dependent of your original con score, so you can't dump that.

That is correct, but still, if you're using PB, 32 is enough for 18 wis 18 con, and you don't really need the rest.

[samster712]

So honestly which do you guys think is a better option:

MMF for 3 levels (or more) ignoring natural spell and getting shifter's speech and such

or do Moonspeaker prestige? also waht book is moonspeaker in?

besides that...what im gathering is focus on Intelligence, Wisdom and Constitution, and I may decide to skip the archery part of it and just be a beast and summon stuff to help me fight...in that case would Frozen wild shape be really good? I like the idea of becoming 12 headed cryohydra and dealing like 200 damage in a round.....

thank you everybody for your help, I really appreciate it :smile:

[Gnaeus]

So honestly which do you guys think is a better option:

MMF for 3 levels (or more) ignoring natural spell and getting shifter's speech and such

It is a trap. Only do this if you want to weaken your druid for balance reasons. 3 levels of casting and animal companion is strictly better than MMF. Also, MMF requires 2 wasted feats to enter, so it isn't saving you anything, it is a net cost.


or do Moonspeaker prestige? also waht book is moonspeaker in?

Moonspeaker is in Races of Eberron, and requires being a shifter. It is generally cool though.



besides that...what im gathering is focus on Intelligence, Wisdom and Constitution, and I may decide to skip the archery part of it and just be a beast and summon stuff to help me fight...in that case would Frozen wild shape be really good? I like the idea of becoming 12 headed cryohydra and dealing like 200 damage in a round.....

I use Frozen Wild shape for communication. Become an Urskan (one of the Armored Bears from Golden Compass), ditch your physical stats and retain speach. Draconic Wild Shape is even better if allowed. Cryohydra form is nice also.

[samster712]

It is a trap. Only do this if you want to weaken your druid for balance reasons. 3 levels of casting and animal companion is strictly better than MMF. Also, MMF requires 2 wasted feats to enter, so it isn't saving you anything, it is a net cost.



Moonspeaker is in Races of Eberron, and requires being a shifter. It is generally cool though.


alright I looked up moonspeaker and it seems to shifter oriented to make it work XD...is there really no other Druid Prc's that are fun AND beneficial?? I talked to my DM and he said he wouldn't limit my druidness but i wouldn't want to do planar shepherd because that is TOO powerful

is there any Druid PrCs that aren't as totally amazing as PS but are cooler/better than normal druid levels?

Would anyone recommend any of these and tell me what they are cause I just typed in druid in the wizards prestige class database:

warshaper or nature's warrior?

[Gnaeus]

is there any Druid PrCs that aren't as totally amazing as PS but are cooler/better than normal druid levels?

Simple answer: No.

Complex answer: There are PRCs which can make a druid better for specific tasks. For example, I could take one PRC to give me a clerical domain, which I would use to enter another PRC that gives me turn undead, which I would use to power Divine Metamagic to persist my druid spells, which would otherwise require a cleric dip. For certain situations, this might be better. Overall, it is a complex trip for a small reward which is arguably weaker than just keeping full wildshape and companion progression. Druid is plenty cool enough.

Warshaper and Nature's Warrior are for melee druids. They have no (warshaper) or very weak (Nature Warrior) casting progression. They help you fight while wildshaped, but hurt everything else. Like MoMf, you are almost always better going straight druid. A build like Wildshape Ranger 5/MoMF10/Warshaper or Natures Warrior is absolutely better than a normal ranger, but not as good as a druid (although lots of fun).

That is essentially the problem with PRCs. They almost always neglect either casting (MoMF, Natures Warrior, Warshaper) or Animal Companion & Wildshape (most purely casting PRCS). Straight druid gives all 3, which is why it is such a powerhouse.

[samster712]

Simple answer: No.

Complex answer: There are PRCs which can make a druid better for specific tasks. For example, I could take one PRC to give me a clerical domain, which I would use to enter another PRC that gives me turn undead, which I would use to power Divine Metamagic to persist my druid spells, which would otherwise require a cleric dip. For certain situations, this might be better. Overall, it is a complex trip for a small reward which is arguably weaker than just keeping full wildshape and companion progression. Druid is plenty cool enough.

Warshaper and Nature's Warrior are for melee druids. They have no (warshaper) or very weak (Nature Warrior) casting progression. They help you fight while wildshaped, but hurt everything else. Like MoMf, you are almost always better going straight druid. A build like Wildshape Ranger 5/MoMF10/Warshaper or Natures Warrior is absolutely better than a normal ranger, but not as good as a druid (although lots of fun).

That is essentially the problem with PRCs. They almost always neglect either casting (MoMF, Natures Warrior, Warshaper) or Animal Companion & Wildshape (most purely casting PRCS). Straight druid gives all 3, which is why it is such a powerhouse.

if i ended up deciding to go pure wild shape...it seems that warshaper multimorph is much better than shapechange, is that right? also do warshaper/druid levels stack?

[PollyOliver]

I would actually recommend Lion of Talisid if you want to not lose power but also not get too much stronger, and like wild shape. You burn a feat, lose two levels of wild shape, and don't get your immunity to aging and poison and thousand faces. You still get full casting, full companion, and nearly full wild shape progression. In exchange, you get a couple nifty but not great class features--scent, exalted companion (basically, lets you drop the celestial template on your animal companion), no action haste on yourself a few rounds per day--and a couple really nice class features--pounce in any form and a decent level 8 spell 3/day (at level 16; the spell is essentially the druid version of holy word) are pretty darn nice. It's not a huge power boost, but if the flavor works for you, I think it's worth it.

[Gavinfoxx]

To speak with people while in Wild Shape, you just need a cursed item in the DMG. Of course, the Magic Item Compendium options are *better*, but this one is core.

It's the Medallion of Thought Projection.

Just wild shape into a bear or whatever, and have your allies place it on you. Bam, 24/7 wild shape and you can think to your allies.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#medallionofThoughtProjection


if i ended up deciding to go pure wild shape...it seems that warshaper multimorph is much better than shapechange, is that right? also do warshaper/druid levels stack?

If you want to go pure wild shape, all you need to do is *get wildshape specific feats*

Natural Spell, Multiattack, Improved Natural Attack (Claw), Improved Natural Attack (Bite), Dragon Wild Shape, Exalted Wild Shape, Frozen Wild Shape, Extra Wild Shape...

[Ungvar]

If you just want as powerful a character as you can have without going overboard into Planar Shepherd land, then go straight druid.

I would say that MoMF is still worth it, because running around in troll form isn't exactly nerfing yourself, but since you're already 5th level, and don't have either of the two prereq feats, it's going to take you a while to even qualify.

If you want to maintain your power level, you MUST take Natural Spell as your 6th level feat. Part of what makes wildshape so powerful is the long duration (hours/level). But if you can't cast while wildshaped, you are sacrificing what is still your most powerful ability: spellcasting.

If you want to be a focused summoner, then after Natural Spell, you'll need to get the Augmented Summoning feat you've been building towards. There goes your 9th level feat. Alternatively, you could see about swapping out the point blank shot for Aug. Sum. But still, you would have to spend your 9th and 12th level feats to satisfy the prereqs for MoMF. Do that, and you're passing up other summoning feats like Greenbound Summoning, Ashbound Summoning, or Rashemi Elemental Summoning.

But if you want to be more versatile, MoMF is the way to go, at least for a few levels. The ability to wildshape into any humanoid, giant or monstrous humanoid pretty much guarantees you the ability to impersonate/infiltrate 90+% of potential hostile societies, especially if you get a friendly wizard to cast Tongues on you and make it permanent. Note that MoMF get Disguise as a class skill, so pouring ranks into Disguise, along w/ the bonus to make a Disguise you get from wildshaping, and you can easily have a +20 modifier to your Disguise roll at level 7.

The thing about druids is that they are so good at so many things, you kind of have to decide whether you're going to be a generalist, or specialize, and if so, specialize in what?

[Larpus]

Well, depending on the group and your intention with this Druid, it might not be a bad thing to intentionally limp yourself a bit given just how powerful you are.

One PrC (actually more of a build) that looked quite interesting when I was trying the Druid out was a pokémon trainer sort of deal, which gave you 3 animal companions, full (or close to full) spellcasting and I guess it left your wildshape intact, but I cannot remember (or find) the name of the PrC or feats involved.

[Ungvar]

Well, depending on the group and your intention with this Druid, it might not be a bad thing to intentionally limp yourself a bit given just how powerful you are.

One PrC (actually more of a build) that looked quite interesting when I was trying the Druid out was a pokémon trainer sort of deal, which gave you 3 animal companions, full (or close to full) spellcasting and I guess it left your wildshape intact, but I cannot remember (or find) the name of the PrC or feats involved.

Hmmm... there's the Beastmaster PrC from Complete Adventurer, which gives you four animal companions over 10 levels, but no spellcasting or wildshape progression.

[Larpus]

Hmmm... there's the Beastmaster PrC from Complete Adventurer, which gives you four animal companions over 10 levels, but no spellcasting or wildshape progression.
Hmmm....I guess that is the one, though the build I intended to follow only got 4 levels of it (+2 Animal Companions), which IMHO is a nice trade depending on the tiers of the rest of the group.

[Gnaeus]

Well, depending on the group and your intention with this Druid, it might not be a bad thing to intentionally limp yourself a bit given just how powerful you are.

It is easier to make a strong character, and then intentionally play down so as to not overshadow other players, than it is to make a weak character and play stronger than you are to compete with other, stronger PCs.

My advice: Make a druid 20. If you dominate play, don't use wildshape, or pick an animal companion that isn't good for combat. If you enjoy playing Druid, any of the options listed above can make for a fun character to play. But at the moment, don't worry about nerfing yourself in your build.

[Larpus]

It is easier to make a strong character, and then intentionally play down so as to not overshadow other players, than it is to make a weak character and play stronger than you are to compete with other, stronger PCs.

My advice: Make a druid 20. If you dominate play, don't use wildshape, or pick an animal companion that isn't good for combat. If you enjoy playing Druid, any of the options listed above can make for a fun character to play. But at the moment, don't worry about nerfing yourself in your build.
I meant as if the others in the group were lower tiers, like 3 tops, in which case it's ok to forego something in your class in order to have something else that appeals to you, the pokémon trainer deal was just an example that appealed to me, the rest of the group was composed by tiers 4s and a single tier 3, commanding many animals into combat while focusing on casting and leaving wildshape for usability looked nice to me and the trade didn't bother me as I'd shine regardless.

Intentionally gimping yourself is only bad if you think you'll regret it and if you're doing it with anything other than a tier 1 surrounded by tier 3-, after all, unless you're really trying, a gimped tier 1 can only drop as far as mid-tier 3, and that is already by sacrificing more than most people are willing to.

[Greenish]

Intentionally gimping yourself is only bad if you think you'll regret it and if you're doing it with anything other than a tier 1 surrounded by tier 3-, after all, unless you're really trying, a gimped tier 1 can only drop as far as mid-tier 3, and that is already by sacrificing more than most people are willing to.Well, druid's casting is tier 1 alone, druid's wildshaping is tier 3 alone, and druid's animal companion would be around tier 5 alone.

You can usually get by without one or two of the three. :smalltongue:

[samster712]

well just so you guys know i don't know much about the tiers but i'm in a party with:
a cleric, a fighter and a paladin (who's gonna do the purple dragon knight thing) and then me, the druid...

[Greenish]

well just so you guys know i don't know much about the tiers but i'm in a party with:
a cleric, a fighter and a paladin (who's gonna do the purple dragon knight thing) and then me, the druid...Well, if your DM and your group consider druids too strong, you might want to tone yours down just in case. I was just pointing out that a druid can take quite a bit of toning down without turning useless.

[samster712]

Well, druid's casting is tier 1 alone, druid's wildshaping is tier 3 alone, and druid's animal companion would be around tier 5 alone.

You can usually get by without one or two of the three. :smalltongue:

how is druid casting tier 1 alone??? I don't really understand how people could consider wizard casting and druid casting in the same field...the only thing that I see is especially good for druids is their spontaneous SNA spell but besides that their spells don't seem the best compared to cleric and wizard/sorcerer

[Larpus]

well just so you guys know i don't know much about the tiers but i'm in a party with:
a cleric, a fighter and a paladin (who's gonna do the purple dragon knight thing) and then me, the druid...
FYI (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5256.0)

The tier system basically determines the overall powerlevel (as in versatility and ability to fill roles as opposed to raw power) of the classes and give them scores, of course, it's not precise at all as an unexperienced wizard (tier1) can easily end up much, much worse than an experienced rogue (tier4).

There is nothing wrong with playing a game with various different tiers in the group, as long as no one tries to overshine the others.

The druid is a tier1, meaning that he can do many things and do them well; he can cast, melee decently, tank decently, has a powerful pet (depending on the animal companion it's better than a PC fighter) and to top it all can wildshape, which can make him melee and tank very well as well as give him a wide array of tricks and all that.

As a result, if the group is more about having fun than opmizing and the DM isn't a jerk, you can safely stray from the "perfect" druid 20 to take couple PrCs or multiclass that appeal to your interests and still be quite powerful and useful in the group.

Remember, there is nothing wrong in not being tier1, 'cus, as I said, you can have a useless tier1 in the wrong hands and an amazing tier4 or 5 in the right hands.

[Greenish]

how is druid casting tier 1 alone??? I don't really understand how people could consider wizard casting and druid casting in the same field...the only thing that I see is especially good for druids is their spontaneous SNA spell but besides that their spells don't seem the best compared to cleric and wizard/sorcererWell, aside from nifty SNAs, they've got some of the best-in-the-class crowd control (for example entangle), some great debuffs (say, blinding spittle), some great buffs (owl's insight, spikes, brambles, bite of the werefoo, shillelagh) and blasting (from produce fire to storm of vengeance). They have their share of divinations, too.

[Edit]: Though I'm not saying their spell list is the best, I'm just saying it's definitely tier 1 material on it's own. There was a long-ish thread recently on whether cleric or druid had the better spell list, for example, and spirit shaman is often considered borderline tier 1 despite not even being a real prepared caster.

[PollyOliver]

Well, you've got battlefield control with the ever-wonderful entangle, things like arctic fog, haboob, wall of thorns, and all sorts of other tricks I'm probably blanking on. There are some nice debuffs in spell compendium. You can call up a blizzard or literally drop an avalanche on someone's head, both of which are pretty much encounter-enders in and of themselves.

The last two are as much blasting as control, but you've got other blasty spells. Call lightning storm, fire seeds, etc. are good options and core, and summon nature's ally for a group of storm elementals is the druid version of meteor swarm.

You've got summoning (and great buffs for these summons, and for yourself), and healing, and reincarnate. There's a druidic holy word in BoED. And you know all of these spells. Maybe the class list isn't as abusable as a wizard's, but it is most definitively tier 1.

[Strife Warzeal]

A while ago I asked nearly the same question (mostly regarding feats) so I'll paraphrase what they told me (may or may not have altered feats after level 6, you get the gist though).

Go druid 20 and then for feats:
level 6: Natural Spell
Level 9: Skill Focus Craft (Basket Weaving)
Level 12: Skill Focus Craft (Underwater Basket Weaving)
Level 15: Skill Focus Craft (Upside-Down Basket Weaving)
Level 18: Skill Focus Craft (Zero-gee Basket Weaving)

You can also change Basket Weaving for Flower Arranging.

[samster712]

A while ago I asked nearly the same question (mostly regarding feats) so I'll paraphrase what they told me (may or may not have altered feats after level 6, you get the gist though).

Go druid 20 and then for feats:
level 6: Natural Spell
Level 9: Craft (Basket Weaving)
Level 12: Craft (Underwater Basket Weaving)
Level 15: Craft (Upside-Down Basket Weaving)
Level 18: Craft (Zero-gee Basket Weaving)

You can also change Basket Weaving for Flower Arranging.
why the heck would you ever want basket weaving?

[PollyOliver]

It's kind of a joke--as in, "look what useless feats I can take and still be effective." Though I'm pretty sure I saw a build built around it once, so there's a second side to the joke as well.

[Greenish]

why the heck would you ever want basket weaving?It's supposed to be Skill Focus on said skills. And you want it so you can weave baskets, of course.

Also because you don't really need any other feats.

[samster712]

It's supposed to be Skill Focus on said skills. And you want it so you can weave baskets, of course.

Also because you don't really need any other feats.

but if i DID want to do actual feats would it prob look like this?

Level 1: Spell focus (conjuration)
Level 3: Augmented Summoning
Level 6: Natural Spell
Level 9: Frozen Wild Shape/exalted wild shape/draconic wildshape/wild shape enhancer
Level 12: assume supernatural ability or *possibly zen archery*
Level 15: greenbound summoning
Level 18: suggestions??

i need a little help at 9, 18, and 12

[PollyOliver]

If you're going to take a bizarre setting-specific summoning feat, greenbound is better at low levels and rashemi elemental is better at high levels. I believe the switchover is at around level 12 or so, where your rashemi air elementals start shooting cones of cold at people.

Frankly, on a druid, everything after natural spell is just "season to taste".

[Coidzor]

but if i DID want to do actual feats would it prob look like this?

Level 1: Spell focus (conjuration)
Level 3: Augmented Summoning
Level 6: Natural Spell
Level 9: Frozen Wild Shape/exalted wild shape/draconic wildshape/wild shape enhancer
Level 12: assume supernatural ability or *possibly zen archery*
Level 15: greenbound summoning
Level 18: suggestions??

i need a little help at 9, 18, and 12

Greenbound Summoning is actually worse than its chief competitor at high levels, IIRC, but it's still competitive, but it's more of a lower level feat than a high level one since the advantages don't scale as well to higher level play and the other option stacks with animal-based buffs you could shell out.

[ZombyWoof]

ok thx also can someone please answer how i can speak to other people in my party while im wild shaped if i can't access any creatures that can speak yet? any feats? should i take master of many forms?


IM kind of starting to like the idea of being a wild shaped summoner who can attack with himself, an animal companion and all his allies plus be able to heal which kind of seems to make a druid pretty amazing (which means natural spell is incredible)

kind of makes me realize why druids are disliked
And yet it's still so little compared to a wizard...

*Dancing Lights to make small flame-like objects dance in his palms*

EDIT: Take the summoning feat that lets you apply the "Cold" template to your summons... and then ask how Energy Substitution works with it!

[samster712]

Greenbound Summoning is actually worse than its chief competitor at high levels, IIRC, but it's still competitive, but it's more of a lower level feat than a high level one since the advantages don't scale as well to higher level play and the other option stacks with animal-based buffs you could shell out.

que es IIRC??? and also how DOES energy substitution work with it??
and instead of greenbound what should I pick?

also which of the wildshape feats is the best (exalted, draconic, frozen)

^by the way if I get my DM to house rule a "condemned wild shape" (like wildshape except for evil alignment) how would that compare to the other three?

[Coidzor]

que es IIRC??? and also how DOES energy substitution work with it??
and instead of greenbound what should I pick?

also which of the wildshape feats is the best (exalted, draconic, frozen)

The post before mine actually remembered the name. Rashemi Elemental Summoning.

IIRC = If I Recall Correctly.

Frozen Wildshape allows you to assume the form of a Cryohydra with something like 12 bite attacks with reach. That seems to be its main draw, though I don't remember what other things it offers, really. I can't remember what one gets from draconic and exalted offhand, but I don't think the dragons are very big due to the limitation on HD...

[Tvtyrant]

Exalted Wildshape is actually really, really good for a casting Druid because it lets you become a Blink Dog, with no chance to miss from your blinking and dimension door as a free action. So jump around avoiding line of sight with enemies and cast magic at them!

Or use it with buffing spells to always full attack. Though you only get the bite so you want Superior Unarmed Strike or a Wild Clasp Monk Belt.

[Gavinfoxx]

que es IIRC??? and also how DOES energy substitution work with it??
and instead of greenbound what should I pick?

also which of the wildshape feats is the best (exalted, draconic, frozen)

IIRC = If I Recall Correctly

Why not get all three, if you want to be really good at wildshaping?

Draconic gets you some okay forms that can do combat and speaking, with good utility (lots of different movement modes amongst things with a dragon type, especially if you go book diving). Draconic doesn't generally get you BIG dragons though... I think the oldest you get is Young Adult Mercury, Steel, and Shadow dragons. Exalted gets you unicorn, which can speak, AND you get the Extraordinary and Supernatural abilities from the list. Frozen Wild Shape gets you TWELVE HEADED CRYOHYDRA at high levels.

Really, you would be fine to just get all three of them, and Natural Spell, asap, and never take a class level of anything BUT Druid...

[samster712]

IIRC = If I Recall Correctly

Why not get all three, if you want to be really good at wildshaping?

Draconic gets you some okay forms that can do combat and speaking, with good utility (lots of different movement modes amongst things with a dragon type, especially if you go book diving). Draconic doesn't generally get you BIG dragons though... I think the oldest you get is Young Adult Mercury, Steel, and Shadow dragons. Exalted gets you unicorn, which can speak, AND you get the Extraordinary and Supernatural abilities from the list. Frozen Wild Shape gets you TWELVE HEADED CRYOHYDRA at high levels.

Really, you would be fine to just get all three of them, and Natural Spell, asap, and never take a class level of anything BUT Druid...

so what order would you go for? which of the 3 is most important at the lower levels...im definately getting natural spell levels 6...

[Ungvar]

The short answer is that NONE of the wildshape feats are important at lower levels, for the simple fact that you can't wildshape until level 5, and your level 6 feat needs to be Natural Spell.

Exalted Wildshape has a class level prereq of level 8, so you could take it at 9. Bear in mind that if you ever willingly commit an evil act, you lose the use of the feat until you can atone. I personally am a bit leery of roleplay restrictions with mechanical penalties, unless that's part of my character concept. If you don't want to be a goody-two-paws, you could just take Rashemi Elemental summoning here.

Draconic Wildshape has a prereq of level 12. You get small and medium size dragons only, but you do get the extraordinary and supernatural abilities, which can really come in handy.

Frozen Wildshape is really only useful for the Cryohydra shape, but since it is sized Huge, you won't be able to become a Cryohydra until level 15. Coincidentally, level 15 is when you get your next feat.

At level 18, you could go for Assume Supernatural Ability, to get the Cryohydra's breath weapon, but by that time, you have at least 2, and probably 3 9th level spells per day. That means Shapechange, which will give you the Cryohydra's breath weapon, along with the breath weapons of nearly every creature that has one. By level 18, you'll definitely be a veteran of playing a druid, and you can decide what you want. You might find that the old standby, Quicken Spell, is useful now that you have all those high-level slots.

***Low level advice:

You didn't ask, but I thought I'd mention that perhaps the best piece of equipment you as a druid can have for low levels is a Lesser Rod of Metamagic Extend. Basically, three times a day you can double the duration of a 3rd level or lower spell. Druids have a ton of spells w/ durations, not the least of which are those spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally spells. Produce Flame, Flame Sphere, Creeping Cold, Vigor, Kelpstrand, Bite of the WereRat... and on and on. At book value of 3000 gp, it isn't cheap, but worth it. Even at higher levels, the Rod is still useful, particularly for making those hours/level buffs last a day or longer.

[Karoht]

So serious question.
For the first 12 levels, what feats would you pick.
Assume Human for race.

[Ungvar]

So serious question.
For the first 12 levels, what feats would you pick.
Assume Human for race.

Well, it obviously depends on what you want to focus on, but assuming straight Druid?

Human Bonus Feat: Spell Focus (Conjuration) -- Not a very useful feat in it's own right, at least not for druids, but a prereq for Augmented Summoning, so you might as well get it out of the way.

1st Level Feat: Companion Spellbond -- Lets you share spells w/ your Animal Companion out to 30', instead of 5', and cast touch range spells on it at close range instead. Normally, having to stick so close to your AC if you want it to continue to benefit from shared buffs gets to be very restrictive. Even this much leeway opens up a boatload of potential tactics. For one example, you can now flank w/ your AC, while he still enjoys the bonuses from that shared Bite of the Were[Rat/Wolf/Boar/Tiger/Bear] you cast.

3rd Level Feat: Augmented Summoning -- Untyped +4 bonuses to STR and CON for all your summons. Remember that these bonuses don't just increase To Hit/To Damage and Hitpoints. They also increase save DCs, like the CON based poison of Vipers, or the STR based whirlwind of Air Elementals.

6th Level Feat: Natural Spell -- The longer you wait to take this feat, the longer you will be playing a seriously gimped druid.

9th Level Feat: Rashemi Elemental Summoning

12th Level Feat: Draconic Wildshape or Initiate of Nature -- IoN adds a few spells to your list, but the big thing is gaining the ability to Rebuke/Command Animals and Plant creatures. So at 12th level, in addition to your AC, you could be walking around with a couple of Commanded Brown Bears, or a trio of Commanded Fleshraker dinosaurs.

[Leon]

6th Level Feat: Natural Spell -- The longer you wait to take this feat, the longer you will be playing a seriously gimped druid.

The feat is a Crutch that people cling to and refuse to believe that anything is possible without it.

It has uses but a Druid is by no means "gimped" without it

[LordBlades]

The feat is a Crutch that people cling to and refuse to believe that anything is possible without it.

It has uses but a Druid is by no means "gimped" without it

Even without Natural Spell, hell, even without Wild Shape and Animal Companion at all, the Druid is still a Tier 1 full caster.

The thing is that this feat is simply so much better for a Druid than any other 6th level feat out there (except maybe Leadership if abused) that by not taking it you're seriously gimping yourself.

You're not gimped compared to the fighter or the monk, but a Druid without Natural Spell is severely gimped compared to a Druid with Natural Spell.

[Greenish]

Well, druid isn't the best point of comparison, even against itself. :smalltongue:

Natural Spell is nice when you don't want to keep switching your statblock that often, though the favoured enemy/monk AC druid variant is even nicer.

[Leon]

Though the favored enemy/monk AC druid variant is even nicer.

Particularly when combined with Druidic Avenger and Favored Enemy: Arcane Caster

[Talya]

exalted companion (basically, lets you drop the celestial template on your animal companion)

I actually much prefer the unicorn animal companion option that Exalted Companion gives you (which is only a -3 companion, and by RAW offsettable by natural bond). Good healing, decent combat, highly durable. It's also a magical beast, which means d10 hit die, full BAB progression, etc. Its primary natural attack is a 1d8+3 magical weapon. The intelligence means you don't worry about skill tricks, or even some mounted combat feats, it can attack while you do. You probably don't even need to guide it- just hang on. It heals decently (at level 4 when you can get it, you don't ever have to worry about memorizing a heal spell.) It has a permanent, nondispellable "Magic Circle" effect (giving itself and its rider "Protection from Evil" nonstop.) Stick VOP on your animal companion and that unicorn is one dangerous combatant. It's just overall a great AC, even at very high levels. (Although you need to find a way to stick wings on it sometime.... ick. Pegacorns.)

[Ungvar]

The feat is a Crutch that people cling to and refuse to believe that anything is possible without it.

It has uses but a Druid is by no means "gimped" without it

It's not that "[nothing] is possible without" Natural Spell. But basically the whole reason you play a druid is you want to wildshape. Maybe a few people do it for the Animal Companion, but I doubt thats many people. A druid that doesn't wildshape is basically a nature-flavored caster. Most of the people asking for advice on this thread seem like they want to do a lot of wildshaping, but spending a lot of time in wildshape WITHOUT natural spell is essentially saying you're going to spend most of your adventuring day without access to your most powerful class feature: casting.

I mean, a guy could theoretically play a barbarian who never rages, or a rogue who chooses never to sneak attack, but those players are gimping themselves if they do. If that's what they like, more power to them, but most of the people on this thread seem to be interested in the "best" feats, ie the ones that increase ability/power/versatility. For druids, Natural Spell is king.

[Tvtyrant]

Particularly when combined with Druidic Avenger and Favored Enemy: Arcane Caster

Or Lion of Talsid to get your Wildshape back. :D

[Leon]

But basically the whole reason you play a druid is you want to wildshape.

No.
You play a Druid if you want to play a Nature themed caster class, wild shape just happens to be one of the bells and whistles added to the chassis of a Full spell caster.

Caster Base is the Cake, Wild Shape and a Companion are just Icing - some times the cake is better without anything on it.

Which is why i really like what Privateer Press did with the Druid for Iron kingdoms - The Druid is a Caster base with several mini PrCs that you can choose if you want to specialize in a Area (like having a Companion or a similar effect to Wildshape, Dispelling focus, teleportation focus, Storm Spell focus etc)

[PollyOliver]

I actually much prefer the unicorn animal companion option that Exalted Companion gives you (which is only a -3 companion, and by RAW offsettable by natural bond). Good healing, decent combat, highly durable. It's also a magical beast, which means d10 hit die, full BAB progression, etc. Its primary natural attack is a 1d8+3 magical weapon. The intelligence means you don't worry about skill tricks, or even some mounted combat feats, it can attack while you do. You probably don't even need to guide it- just hang on. It heals decently (at level 4 when you can get it, you don't ever have to worry about memorizing a heal spell.) It has a permanent, nondispellable "Magic Circle" effect (giving itself and its rider "Protection from Evil" nonstop.) Stick VOP on your animal companion and that unicorn is one dangerous combatant. It's just overall a great AC, even at very high levels. (Although you need to find a way to stick wings on it sometime.... ick. Pegacorns.)

Unicorn can be a very good choice, depending on the game and the level. But you still get the "magical beast" benefits from the celestial template, as it makes anything you drop it on a magical beast and ups the INT to 3.

The undispellable magic circle against evil is pretty darn awesome, though, and a few free healing spells are always nice.

My current druid (second druid I've ever played, and the first in a long time; druid 6 lion of talisid 6 with vop) has a celestial riding dog, which (though totally suboptimal in terms of damage output) is much easier to bring around without attracting any attention (major, since I'm something of an rebel/outlaw), but I can see how a unicorn could be very nice.

I'm actually playing a healer, so I considered unicorn, but ultimately decided against it because...well, puppy.

[Ungvar]

No.
You play a Druid if you want to play a Nature themed caster class, wild shape just happens to be one of the bells and whistles added to the chassis of a Full spell caster.

Caster Base is the Cake, Wild Shape and a Companion are just Icing - some times the cake is better without anything on it.


We'll have to agree to disagree. I think more people choose Druid because they want to be a bear than because they want Entangle on their spell list. If you just wanted to play a Nature themed caster class, you could be a cleric w/ Animal and Plant domains.

Wild shape isn't the most powerful class feature of druids, but it is the SIGNATURE class feature. It is the main attraction insofar as it is the reason most, in my opinion, pick the class instead of some other casting class.

[Leon]

2 Domains make very little inroads toward a Nature Themed caster.

[Greenish]

I like spirit shamans for nature-y casters, even if their class features aren't exactly about that, though stacking the variant druids is fun too.

If I wanted the wildshape without spiritual connotations, I'd play wildshape ranger.

[ShriekingDrake]

I actually much prefer the unicorn animal companion option that Exalted Companion gives you (which is only a -3 companion, and by RAW offsettable by natural bond). Good healing, decent combat, highly durable. It's also a magical beast, which means d10 hit die, full BAB progression, etc. Its primary natural attack is a 1d8+3 magical weapon. The intelligence means you don't worry about skill tricks, or even some mounted combat feats, it can attack while you do. You probably don't even need to guide it- just hang on. It heals decently (at level 4 when you can get it, you don't ever have to worry about memorizing a heal spell.) It has a permanent, nondispellable "Magic Circle" effect (giving itself and its rider "Protection from Evil" nonstop.) Stick VOP on your animal companion and that unicorn is one dangerous combatant. It's just overall a great AC, even at very high levels. (Although you need to find a way to stick wings on it sometime.... ick. Pegacorns.)
What's interesting is that description of the feat says that only rangers can have access to blink dog, pegasus, or unicorn. The feat accessible animal companions are alignment based and, because druids must be some form of Neutral, they don't qualify for those choices.

[Karoht]

Well, it obviously depends on what you want to focus on, but assuming straight Druid?

Human Bonus Feat: Spell Focus (Conjuration) -- Not a very useful feat in it's own right, at least not for druids, but a prereq for Augmented Summoning, so you might as well get it out of the way.

1st Level Feat: Companion Spellbond -- Lets you share spells w/ your Animal Companion out to 30', instead of 5', and cast touch range spells on it at close range instead. Normally, having to stick so close to your AC if you want it to continue to benefit from shared buffs gets to be very restrictive. Even this much leeway opens up a boatload of potential tactics. For one example, you can now flank w/ your AC, while he still enjoys the bonuses from that shared Bite of the Were[Rat/Wolf/Boar/Tiger/Bear] you cast.

3rd Level Feat: Augmented Summoning -- Untyped +4 bonuses to STR and CON for all your summons. Remember that these bonuses don't just increase To Hit/To Damage and Hitpoints. They also increase save DCs, like the CON based poison of Vipers, or the STR based whirlwind of Air Elementals.

6th Level Feat: Natural Spell -- The longer you wait to take this feat, the longer you will be playing a seriously gimped druid.

9th Level Feat: Rashemi Elemental Summoning

12th Level Feat: Draconic Wildshape or Initiate of Nature -- IoN adds a few spells to your list, but the big thing is gaining the ability to Rebuke/Command Animals and Plant creatures. So at 12th level, in addition to your AC, you could be walking around with a couple of Commanded Brown Bears, or a trio of Commanded Fleshraker dinosaurs.

It's Pathfinder (which don't matter very much, but I mention it anyway), I took the Bear Shaman variant, and a Bear companion. Natural Spell at 6, no question. To be honest, I don't recall what feats I took, and I am away from my character sheet at the moment.

[samster712]

can someone explain the Elemental Archon prestige class and if its any good for druids?

[WinWin]

Elemental Archon is decent for caster druids, but not great. It loses it's first caster level at third and a couple of times more in later levels. For the 2 initial levels you get a trio of mephit underlings and a bonus to damage against an opposed element. The main benefit is the mehpits, who come with the ability to summon more mephits and some kinds of breath weapon or spell like ability. Plus they are intelligent, share spells and have an empathic link. If they die? You get new ones the following day.

Earth and Air stand out for me. Earth in addition to Walker in the Waste, Air on top of something incorperating Storm Power/Born of three thunders/explosive spell.

It's a thematic choice that will not advance wildshape. Some people consider that bad, but whatever. Once you've done the wildshape thing there is no need to repeat yourself, so I prefer wacky caster druids.

[samster712]

Air on top of something incorperating Storm Power/Born of three thunders/explosive spell.

how do these three feats combine? I don't understand it

[WinWin]

Storm Power is just a Caster level boost during storms. You spells are more powerful and last for longer.

Explosive Spell and Born of Three Thunders are Complete Arcane feats. Explosive spell blasts creatures out of the area of effect. Born of Three Thunders works great with energy substitution, as any lightning/thunder spells can now stun and knock prone in addition to their normal effects.

The result is a flying druid that blasts opponents out of the sky or simply sits in the air and bombards enemies with impunity. Gets a lot of mileage out of long duration attack spells like Ice Storm and Call Lightning. Can also use spell placement to force stunned enemies in to one of your many zone spells like Wall of Thorns or Wall of Fire.

Only real downside is the accompanying Daze with BoTT, easily countered by preparing something like Sheltered Vitality.