holy crap

[Darth Stabber]

So I just realized how good command undead is the hard way. So in the game I'm running, the party goes up against a mature adult whit dragon zombie. Dreadnecromancer casts command undead, overcomes sr, and I ask the player what dc the save is, she says none, I read the spell. Now my level 7 party has a huge dragon zombie jet liner. Also I never get to use mindless undead again. Is this right? Can she really just take over 20+ hit dice of zombie like that? I realize that she needs to recast the spell once a week, but still they now have a 200ft flyspeed transport. It's not great at combat, but they can go anywhere way too fast.

This party already takes on things of much higher cr than their supposed to on a regular basis (ecl+4 are their normal encounters), and now they just run the field.

[Tvtyrant]

Well its 2HD/level, so they have to be at least level 10 to get a 20HD monster. So no, it can't do what it did.

[WinWin]

The spell command undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm) has no HD limit. Not to be confused with rebuke.

[Tvtyrant]

Ah, I was looking at Control Undead.

[Coidzor]

Well, there's ways to adjust to travel time discrepancies, generally... And a huge dragon is going to have to spend more time parked than not unless your party is out on the open plains a lot. :/

...And a third level wizard can hijack their ride... Or Precocious Apprentice...

[Darth Stabber]

Command undead does not have a hit die limit (unlike control undead). She could control a 9,000hd mindless undead, with no save attached. Seriously one 2nd level spell invalidates all of the mindless undead out there as threats (except when used in swarms). The only limiting factors are SR, and how many she wants to control that way. I knew that command undead would be a factor in any fight against undead (being a very low level dominate), but with no save certain things become entirely trivial (and end up giving them stuff). The only check on this sort of activity is having an enemy necromancer steal it from under them (it will probably happen).

[Friv]

The only check on this sort of activity is having an enemy necromancer steal it from under them (it will probably happen).

It doesn't even need to be a necromancer, really. An enemy with Dispel Magic would reasonably want to toss that at the giant death dragon, which could very rapidly and violently shift the tone of an encounter in the enemies' favor.

I dunno, if I had Command Undead, I would not want to keep the undead in question around post-encounter.

[Anxe]

Wouldn't the old master of the zombie still have control over it as well? So two people would have absolute control over what the zombie does. At least that's how I'm reading it. Maybe I'm wrong.

Also, "Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the commanded undead breaks the spell."

[Kalim]

It doesn't even need to be a necromancer, really. An enemy with Dispel Magic would reasonably want to toss that at the giant death dragon, which could very rapidly and violently shift the tone of an encounter in the enemies' favor.

I dunno, if I had Command Undead, I would not want to keep the undead in question around post-encounter.

It's the cheapest way to boost your undead numbers, really. It's worth the risk a lot of the time. Control Undead is better for tossing them in short order.

I'm jealous they got to have a zombie dragon. My Dread Necromancer is only two levels lower, but his sole Commanded minion is... an animated chair made of corpses. :smallfrown:

[Mikeavelli]

I'm a big fan of the, "If you use it, and it's really effective, the enemy NPC's are going to start using it too." method of balancing. Enemy Necromancers with Dispel Magic or Control Undead.

Other balancing suggestions:

- If your world has the "Undead are innately evil" rule, a variety of good-aligned authority figures are going to insist that the PC's destroy the Dragon, or at the very least keep it out of sight. If they refuse, they'll be arrested or otherwise unwelcome in most civilized cities.

- Even if there is no Undead are innately evil rule, there are definitely religions that hate the Undead, and want to see them all destroyed as a matter of religious pride. Send NPC Clerics and Paladins with the specific task of destroying the Dragon, and the secondary task of killing the Necromancer who's controlling it. If your PC's cry foul, remind them, "Someone hired you guys to go kill the Evil Dragon. Those same people still want the Dragon dead, so they're hiring more adventurers." This time they're not taking any chances on the moral choice angle.

- Easy transportation, like Unlimited Flying on the back of a giant Undead Dragon, balances out in another three levels anyways with the introduction of teleport. My PC's Charmed some Roc's in an encounter around 11th level, and proceeded to use them as transportation for the rest of the game. It turned out to just be a more flavorful version of, "aaaaand we teleport there." Led to some fun flying encounters too.

[Telonius]

The duration isn't permanent, it's days/level. So if the caster doesn't keep close tabs on it, he's going to have a very upset undead in about a week.

Also, there's the issue of who created the zombie to begin with. You can only create (at most) 4 times your level in unintelligent undead HD, and that's if you're in a Desecrated area. Somebody, minimum level 5, likely level 10, had 5000gp to blow on a zombie dragon. That somebody is probably going to be a little upset that you stole said dragon.