Sorcerer/Favored Soul/Mystic Theurge

[The Boz]

How effective would this mix be? Are there any real must-take feats or spells?

[Thurbane]

Since they are both 1 level in casting behind non-spontaneous casters like Wizards or Clerics, using them in a theurge build will seriously delay your casting. Your best bet may be to try for some early entry tricks to qualify - say, Versatile Spellcaster, meaning you can "cast second levels spells" on both sides after just one level of each.

MT also requires Knowledge (religion), which neither class gets. There is an ACF here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x) that allows FS to trade Knowledge (arcana) for Knowledge (religion). Otherwise, you'll need a feat like Educated or Knowledge Devotion to nab the required ranks.

After 10 levels of MT, you might want to look at Legacy Champion or Uncanny Trickster to boost your dual casting. Alternatively, maybe only dip 1 or 2 levels on either the Sorc or Favored Soul side, and concentrate on still getting 9th level casting on the other.

On the plus side, you can dump WIS and use CHA as your sole casting stat, so long as you don't bother picking up spells that allows saves on the FS side.

[Blackjackg]

I believe the general consensus would be that it's less effective than a Wizard-Cleric. But I think it would be a lot of fun to play. The obvious feat to take is Practiced Spellcaster (twice) to get your caster level equal to your character level on both classes.

Let us know whether you try it and how it turns out.

[Thurbane]

Something like Favored Soul 2/Sorcerer 1/MT 10/Legacy Champion 6/Favoured Soul 1 will get you FS 18/Sorc 16 casting. Not too bad.

There is some controversy about whether legacy champion can advance the dual casting of MT beyond 10 levels or not, and whether it can be done pre-epic.

[The Boz]

Thanks! What books are Versatile and the Champion?

[Cog]

Versatile Spellcaster is from Races fo the Dragon. Handy link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats).

Legacy Champion is from Weapons of Legacy. Helpful link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/prc).

[Blackjackg]

I may have missed an errata somewhere, but I don't believe Versatile Spellcaster will allow you to circumvent the requirement. It specifies that you can use two lower-level spell slots to cast "a spell you know," one level higher. Referring to the respective Spells Known charts of the Sorcerer and Favored Soul, neither of them knows any second level spells until caster level 4.

[Thurbane]

I may have missed an errata somewhere, but I don't believe Versatile Spellcaster will allow you to circumvent the requirement. It specifies that you can use two lower-level spell slots to cast "a spell you know," one level higher. Referring to the respective Spells Known charts of the Sorcerer and Favored Soul, neither of them knows any second level spells until caster level 4.
Sorry, I should have specified you need to use it on conjunction with Heighten Spell. You Heighten your first level (or 0 level) spells to second, and cast them using Versatile Spellcaster.

I believe Sanctum Spell works by itself, though. Requires a bit more of a generous reading, IMHO.

[Gnaeus]

Your best bet may be to try for some early entry tricks to qualify - say, Versatile Spellcaster, meaning you can "cast second levels spells" on both sides after just one level of each.

Disagree. Your best bet is to have a discussion with your DM about Mystic Theurge, and (especially if you play in an optimized party) ask him to adjust the requirements. In a fighter, monk, rogue, party, Mystic Theurge is not too weak to play. In a Druid/Warblade/Beguiler party, it is pretty weak, but personally as a DM I would adjust the class before I would allow Versatile Spellcaster or Sanctum spell entry.

[HalfDragonCube]

I am currently playing a third level Wizard/Archivist that is about to go into MT early using the Earth Spell trick, this seems to be kind of similar.

There are many advantages to being a dual caster, especially if there aren't any other casters in the group that use utility spells.

You will have relatively low hit dice and armour class so surround yourself with meatshields, and always have a method of escape ready.

[Hazzardevil]

Use the versatile spellcaster, heighten trick to qualify for mystic theurge early, that will help and then I reccomend you ask your DM for one of the many mystic theurge fixes. Or use the pathfinder one on the SRD. I reckon th ebest way to pull off what you want. This is only for high optimised games mind you.
1. Be a kobold and take 1 level of sorcerer and favoured soul.
2. Use 2 flaw sso you can take heighten spell, versatile spellcaster and dragonwrought. I strongly reccomend you be Venerable as well for +3 to all mental stats.
3. Take however many levels of mystic theurge you want.
4. along the way take that kobold rite of passage that raises your sorcerer casting by one and Use Loredrake from dragons of eberron so you have your standard sorcerer casting +3.
5. As soon as you are satisfied with your sorcerer casting, take either more favoured soul levels or better, prestige classes that do the same. I reccomend Geomancer.
6. If unsatisfied with your finished product of Sorcerer spells known then take feats such as extra spell and arcane disciple.
7. Profit!

You should now have accomplished double 9's with 2 spontaneuos castung classes.
Should you so desire, replace favoured soul with Ur-Priest and you have access to the entire cleric list of spells and a whole lotta sorcerer.

[Douglas]

Something like Favored Soul 2/Sorcerer 1/MT 10/Legacy Champion 6/Favoured Soul 1 will get you FS 18/Sorc 16 casting. Not too bad.

There is some controversy about whether legacy champion can advance the dual casting of MT beyond 10 levels or not, and whether it can be done pre-epic.
Advancing MT beyond 10 with Legacy Champion is completely legitimate. The problem is that, since MT does have an epic progression, the extra advancement uses that epic progression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClassProgressions.htm#epicMysticTheurge). Which sucks. Seriously, it changes dual casting to alternating casting, WTF? You'd be better off alternating levels of Favored Soul and Sorcerer instead.

[Bang!]

Disagree. Your best bet is to have a discussion with your DM about Mystic Theurge, and (especially if you play in an optimized party) ask him to adjust the requirements. In a fighter, monk, rogue, party, Mystic Theurge is not too weak to play. In a Druid/Warblade/Beguiler party, it is pretty weak, but personally as a DM I would adjust the class before I would allow Versatile Spellcaster or Sanctum spell entry.
Agreed on all counts. Early entry shenanigans confound the question of what the DM is comfortable allowing with questions of the legality of certain loopholes.

[Hazzardevil]

it Isn't better to go with legacy champion next. It's better to alternate between Prestige classes, or my favorite Geomancer.
Actually it gains +1 additional level of class features. Your not Epic yet, therefore I don't think that it uses epic progression.
On any account An Arcane Hireophant does the job better, even if it leaves the question which is better.
Wildshape or 9th level wizard casting?

[Anxe]

I've done that build before, Sorcerer 4/Favored Soul 4/Mystic Theurge 4. It was awesome. I never ran out of spells. The rest of the party was like, lets quit for the day! And I was like, I've only used a quarter of my spells! It's a lot of fun.

[Cog]

The rest of the party was like, lets quit for the day! And I was like, I've only used a quarter of my spells!
This doesn't really sound like a good thing to me. If everybody else needs to rest, then all those extra resources you have are sitting around doing nothing; also, if your resources hadn't been behind (as even early-entry tricks usually come out), you might have been able to better resolve those situations without others going through their own resources as heavily. The latter point depends very much on circumstances, but the former is true either way.

Of course, whether it works out and whether you're having fun are more important. A lot of caster classes can afford to lose some strength. I'm just saying it's not really a point in the build's favor.

[SlashRunner]

Doesn't Theurge require 6 ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (religion)? And the max ranks you can put in something is level+3? Do modifiers from ability scores count as "ranks"?

[Veyr]

Doesn't Theurge require 6 ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (religion)?
It does.


And the max ranks you can put in something is level+3?
It is.


Do modifiers from ability scores count as "ranks"?
They do not.

What exactly is the problem here? Any 3rd level character can get those 6 ranks trivially...

[Forged Fury]

What exactly is the problem here? Any 3rd level character can get those 6 ranks trivially...
I guess if you're doing Sorcerer/Favored Soul without variants, early entry, or ACFs? Knowledge (Religion) never becomes a class skill unless you set a feat on fire for Educated or something similar. At 8th level (the last level before you would otherwise qualify for MT based on casting ability), you would only have a max of 5.5 ranks in Knowledge (Religion) with the two classes provided.

I could be missing something obvious.

[Talya]

Best Theurge is Archivist/Wizard.

My favorite theurge-type build has no divine casting.

Beguiler/Conjurer (banned illusion/enchantment)/Ultimate Magus (with practiced spellcaster on one side to ensure it raises the other exclusively on those 3 levels where it would normally pick the class with the lower caster level.)

[Veyr]

I guess if you're doing Sorcerer/Favored Soul without variants, early entry, or ACFs? Knowledge (Religion) never becomes a class skill unless you set a feat on fire for Educated or something similar. At 8th level (the last level before you would otherwise qualify for MT based on casting ability), you would only have a max of 5.5 ranks in Knowledge (Religion) with the two classes provided.

I could be missing something obvious.
Nah, the only obvious thing missing here is that the Favored Soul should have Knowledge (Religion). I always forget that it doesn't.

[Telonius]

2. Use 2 flaw sso you can take heighten spell, versatile spellcaster and dragonwrought. I strongly reccomend you be Venerable as well for +3 to all mental stats.

Yeah, Dragonwrought shenanigans were my first thought. You could work it so that you only lose a little bit of casting, while also casting as a Favored Soul 11, by the end of it.

[The Boz]

Thanks everyone, I'll look into the Kobold thingy.

[Hazzardevil]

The kobold thing is cheese though, so the DM might say no. It also requires a lot of books too.
It requires:
RotD,
CD,
DoE,
and any books for prestige classes you might want.

[TOZ]

What do people think of the Spontaneous Divine Caster variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) in place of the Favored Soul to cut down on entry delay? If you're going MT, you're not getting the higher level FS abilities, so you might as well go Cleric instead.

[Bogardan_Mage]

What do people think of the Spontaneous Divine Caster variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) in place of the Favored Soul to cut down on entry delay? If you're going MT, you're not getting the higher level FS abilities, so you might as well go Cleric instead.
The point is to have all Charisma based casting. That varient doesn't do that.

[Veyr]

Favored Soul has MAD Wis/Cha-based casting. Cha is for bonus spells/minimum ability score to cast, and Wis is for DCs.

[The Boz]

Favored Soul has MAD Wis/Cha-based casting. Cha is for bonus spells/minimum ability score to cast, and Wis is for DCs.

True, but most of the Cleric-side spells would either be personal/ally range buffs, or some of the few no-save spells. The main thing I was hoping for is flexibility, and to see if casting both arcane and divine spells can offset the much later attainment of said spells when compared to pure Cleric or Wizard. All Cha-based casting is to significantly bolster the arsenal and see if the number of raw spells can help as well.

[Hazzardevil]

I would personally stick with soul anyway. Turn Undead is nice, but having divine MM on top of what I said is too far, your DM thinks theurges are overpowered, You should be trying to show the cheese nessecery required to match a pure wizard or cleric, not trying to reach Tier 0.

[Nightraiderx]

instead of using sorc, use warmage that way you can use:
Versatile Casting and Southern Magician (few times a day cast arcane spell as divine and vise versa)
1. versatile up to 2nd level arcane spells.
2 use southern magician to "cast" 2nd lvl divine spells
2. still have your cha based spell casting.

so yea all that but
1-2 FS 1 Sorc 10 MT + w/e else